Sticky: Was it our lack of O or D last year?

 
Post new topic    LakersGround.net Forum Index -> LA Lakers Lounge Reply to topic
View previous topic :: View next topic  

Which lost more games for us last year?
Offense
2%
 2%  [ 1 ]
Defense
97%
 97%  [ 34 ]
Total Votes : 35

Author Message
lkrsdudugold
Starting Rotation
Starting Rotation


Joined: 13 Jul 2005
Posts: 111

PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 6:52 pm    Post subject: Sticky: Was it our lack of O or D last year?

We're seriously lacking the type of O that StevO can bring. Was anybody really happy with the offense last year. Did anybody see the 0pt first quarters or the 4th quarter runs by opposing teams while our offense did nothing.

Last edited by lkrsdudugold on Fri Jul 22, 2005 7:52 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
Charles
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 22 Sep 2004
Posts: 4525

PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 6:57 pm    Post subject:

offense feeds off from defense. We had Odom playing out of position and being pushed around on defense. Mihm unable to stay out of foul trouble on defense. Chucky and Caron Butler playing matador defense, and Kobe playing D for only half the year.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address Reply with quote
Millerb81
Starting Rotation
Starting Rotation


Joined: 16 Jul 2004
Posts: 572
Location: Los Angeles

PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 6:57 pm    Post subject:

We were 12th in the league in team offense and 27th in team defense. Defense was the problem not offense. Can we stop with the Steve Francis thing already! He isn't coming to LA.
_________________
"It's just the way my heart is. I guess I have too big of a heart, I think that's what it is."
-Ronny Turiaf
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address Reply with quote
kqiu2210
Starting Rotation
Starting Rotation


Joined: 24 Jun 2005
Posts: 975
Location: Sydney, Australia

PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 6:58 pm    Post subject:

Charles wrote:
offense feeds off from defense.

that is very true, and we lacked defence. all the opponents point guards burnt Chucky. Odom was at the 4, not where he should of been.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
twoface723
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 24 Jun 2005
Posts: 3751
Location: University of Texas

PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 7:00 pm    Post subject:

It was a combination of both, but if I had to choose I would blame it on our defense.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Yahoo Messenger Reply with quote
lkrsdudugold
Starting Rotation
Starting Rotation


Joined: 13 Jul 2005
Posts: 111

PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 7:00 pm    Post subject:

I saw the Lakers do their thing in ATL last year, FEB, and it wasn't pretty. It took us a whole quarter before we could figure out how to score. And it was the same way with any game I followed, no 1st quarter production. That or we would just cease to score points near the end and give it to the other team. Same thing happened Christmas night. Our Offense went to sleep in the 4th and wouldn't wake up for OT. Somebody couldn't handle the pressure and it wasn't Kobe. Ok, part of it was Kobe too. StevO avg 18 points his first season. I'm sure he could get something going in the 1st quarter. Triangle my rectum. Anybody who thought they could drop a bucket tried and failed one after the other. And yet we're working on our lack of D? Let's not D-ny the truth.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
lkrsdudugold
Starting Rotation
Starting Rotation


Joined: 13 Jul 2005
Posts: 111

PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 7:12 pm    Post subject:

Charles wrote:
offense feeds off from defense. We had Odom playing out of position and being pushed around on defense. Mihm unable to stay out of foul trouble on defense. Chucky and Caron Butler playing matador defense, and Kobe playing D for only half the year.


Our lack of defense came from our lack of offense. When we figured out we weren't going to be able to drop a bucket on the other end we went into losing mode on defense and teams would run the numbers up on us. I've seen this. We were down 30-2 to Atl in the first quarter. 60-12 at the half. I might have left but it was a 6 hour drive.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
Charles
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 22 Sep 2004
Posts: 4525

PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 7:15 pm    Post subject:

The truth? 29th in forcing turnovers. Less offensive possessions and fast break-opportunities.

One game doesn't make a season. Chucky Atkins, Caron Butler, Lamar Odom at the 4 are weak spots defensively. The Lakers lost at least 15 more games due to lack of crunch-time rebounding and inability to get stops when it matters.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address Reply with quote
KobeButler
Franchise Player
Franchise Player


Joined: 14 Nov 2004
Posts: 10179

PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 7:22 pm    Post subject:

was BOTH. When our offense wasnt clicking, it affected the defense and vice versa.

bad defense was obvious.
Guru wrote up a nice piece on why our offense also sucked last year: http://forums.lakersground.net/viewtopic.php?p=68612&highlight=#68612
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
lkrsdudugold
Starting Rotation
Starting Rotation


Joined: 13 Jul 2005
Posts: 111

PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 7:24 pm    Post subject:

Charles wrote:
The Lakers lost at least 15 more games due to lack of crunch-time rebounding and inability to get stops when it matters.


Truth is, LA lost 20 more games do to 0 1st quarter points and inability to seal the deal in the 4th with a bucket or two. Read your boxscores. This is sommething they don't want you to know. That's why everybody's voting D.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
Van-Exel26
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 13 Jul 2005
Posts: 1402

PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 7:28 pm    Post subject:

Why is this even a poll?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
Charles
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 22 Sep 2004
Posts: 4525

PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 7:29 pm    Post subject:

28-6 when holding opponent below 100 points.
29th in forcing turnovers
29th in opponent PPG. Just above Atlanta.

Contrast the 29th rankings to 7th best offense in the league. A higher-ranked offense of that of the champion San Antonio Pissants.


Is offense why Chucky Atkins can get posted up by Gary Payton 200 straight times or allow penetration on every possession, leaving our only decent center in foul trouble? Is offense why Lamar Odom is easily pushed around and abused by every power forward in the league, constantly in foul trouble?


Offense feeds more on defense than vice versa. Turnovers and rebounds allow more possessions and much more fast break opportunities, create momentum, and allow fewer higher percentage shots. Maybe if the Lakers could hold their men down, they wouldn't need those extra points.


Last edited by Charles on Fri Jul 22, 2005 7:32 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address Reply with quote
laker4life
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 26 Nov 2001
Posts: 7317

PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 7:31 pm    Post subject:

why dont we get derek fisher back if hes release it dont think we need a big guard and its odom so and we get lue and we save that MLE for a center and we straight this how the linep will be

mihm/hunter/bynum
brown/grant/cook
odom/walton/george
kobe/jj/wafer
fisher/lue/parker

this lineup would be deep and decent this type of team reminds me off the early 90s bulls there not that big but they got better shooting and alot of vetaran leadership not to be crazy but if everybody steps up there game this team can be in the wcf or to the finals but not winnig it but hey with phill u never know so defense those win cahmpionships and i think this team is cabaple of doing it so wacth out if this lineup is made up
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
lkrsdudugold
Starting Rotation
Starting Rotation


Joined: 13 Jul 2005
Posts: 111

PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 7:33 pm    Post subject:

Van-Exel26 wrote:
Why is this even a poll?


People are reading it wrong. It's supposed to be which will be bigger when we get StevO. People still want to talk about the D. They know nothing about the O situation last year. Am I right or am I right? Because they're trained not to know!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
Charles
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 22 Sep 2004
Posts: 4525

PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 7:50 pm    Post subject:

Charles wrote:
28-6 when holding opponent below 100 points.
29th in forcing turnovers
29th in opponent PPG. Just above Atlanta.

Contrast the 29th rankings to 7th best offense in the league. A higher-ranked offense of that of the champion San Antonio Pissants.


Is offense why Chucky Atkins can get posted up by Gary Payton 200 straight times or allow penetration on every possession, leaving our only decent center in foul trouble? Is offense why Lamar Odom is easily pushed around and abused by every power forward in the league, constantly in foul trouble?


Offense feeds more on defense than vice versa. Turnovers and rebounds allow more possessions and much more fast break opportunities, create momentum, and allow fewer higher percentage shots. Maybe if the Lakers could hold their men down, they wouldn't need those extra points.
Just to expand that some more: Why did the Lakers allow 116 and 114 points vs. Charlotte and Atlanta, the 28th and 29th ranked offenses in the league? In the game vs. Atlanta, the Lakers put up 108 points. That's certainly enough to win vs. most teams, and especially Atlanta.

Do you remember what turned that game around in the last minute? Antoine Walker posts up Lamar Odom for a crucial shot. Not only that, Antoine didn't even have to shoot a 3. Antoine loves shooting 3's. That shows how easy the Lakers made it for them to score on us.



On to Charlotte, just look at Okafor and Brevin Knight, stamping up a big fat highlight on the lack of PG and PF defense:

Okafor: 30 points, 13-22 shooting, 11 rebounds. Career high points.
Knight: 21 points, 17 assists, 0 turnovers. 17 assists, 0 turnovers. 17 assists, 0 turnovers.

let that marinate for a while.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address Reply with quote
lkrsdudugold
Starting Rotation
Starting Rotation


Joined: 13 Jul 2005
Posts: 111

PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 7:57 pm    Post subject:

Charles wrote:
Charles wrote:
28-6 when holding opponent below 100 points.
29th in forcing turnovers
29th in opponent PPG. Just above Atlanta.

Contrast the 29th rankings to 7th best offense in the league. A higher-ranked offense of that of the champion San Antonio Pissants.


Is offense why Chucky Atkins can get posted up by Gary Payton 200 straight times or allow penetration on every possession, leaving our only decent center in foul trouble? Is offense why Lamar Odom is easily pushed around and abused by every power forward in the league, constantly in foul trouble?


Offense feeds more on defense than vice versa. Turnovers and rebounds allow more possessions and much more fast break opportunities, create momentum, and allow fewer higher percentage shots. Maybe if the Lakers could hold their men down, they wouldn't need those extra points.
Just to expand that some more: Why did the Lakers allow 116 and 114 points vs. Charlotte and Atlanta, the 28th and 29th ranked offenses in the league? In the game vs. Atlanta, the Lakers put up 108 points. That's certainly enough to win vs. most teams, and especially Atlanta.

Do you remember what turned that game around in the last minute? Antoine Walker posts up Lamar Odom for a crucial shot. Not only that, Antoine didn't even have to shoot a 3. Antoine loves shooting 3's. That shows how easy the Lakers made it for them to score on us.



On to Charlotte, just look at Okafor and Brevin Knight, stamping up a big fat highlight on the lack of PG and PF defense:

Okafor: 30 points, 13-22 shooting, 11 rebounds. Career high points.
Knight: 21 points, 17 assists, 0 turnovers. 17 assists, 0 turnovers. 17 assists, 0 turnovers.

let that marinate for a while.


I think you missed it altogether. By the time it got to 10-0 our defense just dissappeared. Every spot was an open spot for a score after we missed open shot after open shot. It's pathetic. I huess you guys don't get it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
Charles
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 22 Sep 2004
Posts: 4525

PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 8:01 pm    Post subject:

Then I ask you this: How exactly did the Lakers lose by 6 after bringing the game within 2 in the final 90 seconds.

And how exactly does one game vs. Atlanta define a whole season of bad defense, foul trouble, a 29th ranked defense and a team that cannot contain anyone?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address Reply with quote
lkrsdudugold
Starting Rotation
Starting Rotation


Joined: 13 Jul 2005
Posts: 111

PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 8:04 pm    Post subject:

Charles wrote:
Then I ask you this: How exactly did the Lakers lose by 6 after bringing the game within 2 in the final 90 seconds.

And how exactly does one game vs. Atlanta define a whole season of bad defense, foul trouble, a 29th ranked defense and a team that cannot contain anyone?


Just deny it then if it means nothing to you. We lost a lot of games in the 4th quarter. We ceased to score. 1st and 4th quarters we didn't score. 2nd and 3rd we beat everybody. Was I the only one actually watching games last season?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
Charles
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 22 Sep 2004
Posts: 4525

PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 8:16 pm    Post subject:

lkrsdudugold wrote:
Charles wrote:
Then I ask you this: How exactly did the Lakers lose by 6 after bringing the game within 2 in the final 90 seconds.

And how exactly does one game vs. Atlanta define a whole season of bad defense, foul trouble, a 29th ranked defense and a team that cannot contain anyone?


Just deny it then if it means nothing to you. We lost a lot of games in the 4th quarter. We ceased to score. 1st and 4th quarters we didn't score. 2nd and 3rd we beat everybody. Was I the only one actually watching games last season?
Does it occur to you that trading baskets in the fourth doesn't get you anywhere? That in addition to making 4th quarter baskets, the Lakers also needed defensive stops to build leads? That no team can score on every single possession in the NBA?

Did you watch how many games were lost due to lack of crunchtime defensive stops, turnovers, rebounds? Did you watch at all?

Perfect examples? Phoenix and Washington at Staples.

What happened vs. Phoenix? The Lakers build a 5-point lead with not much time remaining at all. Of course, the Lakers lose the lead to 3-pointers by Q and Marion, then what? The last shot of the game, Q hits a wide open 3 to build an unsurmountable lead with less than 2 seconds left.

Washington? The Lakers were scoring fine in the fourth. Tons of lead changes, baskets open by both teams in 4th quarter and OT. Both teams seemingly scored on every possession. All the Lakers needed was to produce one or two defensive stops at the rate of which the offense was scoring. But you know, they didn't, and when you're trading baskets, eventually someone's going to miss. Exactly what happened. If the Lakers would stop Gilbert Arenas just once or twice, that would've ended the game. What happens? Another insurmountable lead.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address Reply with quote
slavavov
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 03 Oct 2003
Posts: 8288
Location: Santa Monica

PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2005 1:10 pm    Post subject:

Both sides of the ball need improvement on this team, but our defense is a bigger problem than our offense. A lot of that is related to our personnel and our lack of size and intimidation on the frontline, but Phil's return and the fact that he has always emphasized defense and will do so this year especially, will improve our defense by itself.

I think everything starts at the defensive end, but our offense isn't exactly high octane either. Our halfcourt offense lacked structure and cohesion, which I blame on coaching (or lack thereof), and again Phil and his triangle offense will greatly help that. But we also need some kind of low-post offensive threat. Can/will Kwame Brown give us that? Kobe had little help offensively last year, and the fact that we didn't have an inside game to help spread defenses made things even worse. No wonder Kobe played bad defense, he was tired from having to score 35-40 points to give us a good chance to win!

We also need to improve our transition game. A lot of that has to do with our defense, we were dead worst in forced turnovers, which can directly lead to fastbreaks. When we DID force turnovers, it usually resulted in a fast break or early offensive basket. Without someone like Shaq to have as a security blanket on offense, and with our new found athleticism, youth, and versatility, we really have to run as much as possible. Kobe probably loves that type of game because his game is best suited to it, and hopefully Lamar can run the break well from the middle. In the 90s Pippen often led the break for the Bulls, let's see if Odom can do the same.

This team probably has the talent to average at least 100 ppg if healthy. If we combine that with solid defense, we can easily win 50 games next year.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
Phil
Retired


Joined: 03 Aug 2001
Posts: 10007

PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2005 1:18 pm    Post subject:

It was defense overwhelmingly. But, the real problem was lack of direction. Rudy leaving, Hamblin being a "lame duck," and the injuries. All the trade rumors probably didn't help either. And finally, not getting the 1st round pick if we made the playoffs also contributed for sure. A year to forget, it was.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
Freakout
Franchise Player
Franchise Player


Joined: 12 Apr 2001
Posts: 11796
Location: WV

PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2005 1:24 pm    Post subject:

Teams can struggle offensively and still win ball games. It's not rare to see Detroit go into half time with a whooping 30 points yet they still win. Why? Because of their defense. Our offense went through dry spells, especially when they tried learning the triangle midseason but thats expected. Defense was horrible though from start to finish.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    LakersGround.net Forum Index -> LA Lakers Lounge All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1 of 1
Jump to:  

 
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum






Graphics by uberzev
© 1995-2018 LakersGround.net. All Rights Reserved. Privacy Policy. Terms of Use.
LakersGround is an unofficial news source serving the fan community since 1995.
We are in no way associated with the Los Angeles Lakers or the National Basketball Association.


Powered by phpBB