Best defender: Scottie Pippen vs. Michael Cooper
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Who was the best (G/SF) defender of all time?
Michael Cooper
42%
 42%  [ 51 ]
Scottie Pippen
37%
 37%  [ 45 ]
Chucky Atkins
20%
 20%  [ 24 ]
Total Votes : 120

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Mike@LG
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2005 10:08 pm    Post subject:

^Strong argument.

Once again, Rodman wasn't a rover. Joe Dumars was.

Pippen played great man defense and great team defense.

Shutting down a player is one thing. Shutting down one side of a court and affecting a team as a whole is different altogether.
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DNA
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2005 11:35 pm    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
I disagree about Bowen's defense. He gets away with a lot that goes unseen.

The same isn't said of Kirilenko and Ron Artest, who provide the same kind of man-defense without the cheap-shots. Straight up strong man-defense. No injuries. Great team-help as well (not a role Bowen is asked to do).


Kobe beat Artest off the dribble pretty easily every time they matched up against each other. I remember 3 years ago when Kobe scored an efficient 38 on Artest(he also had 8 turnovers, but IMO, it was more due to carelessness than good defense). Sorry, but Artest's lateral movement just doesn't impress me. Kirilenko has done a credible job defendng Kobe, mainly in blocking his shots, but he still gets beat too often IMO.
As for the cheap shots, well as Carmelo would say, if he gets away with it, then it must be good defense.
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Mike@LG
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2005 5:50 am    Post subject:

And what does Bryant shoot against Artest? Roughly 40% or below or usually with a high amount of turnovers.

Artest plays defense using his body (a brick) and denying position. Bowen reacts quickly.

You guys talk as if Bowen doesn't even get beat by Bryant, or as if he doesn't get beat at all.

Just because Bowen gets away with it, doesn't mean it's good defense.
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shnjb
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2005 10:13 am    Post subject:

It's difficult to compare Bowen with Artest or Kirilenko.
Bowen has Tim Duncan, and a defensive scheme that has been proven to help him out.

Artest has a little bit of help with his team being an above average defensive team.

Kirilenko, however, doesn't have much of help at all.
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Normnix
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2005 1:51 pm    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
I disagree about Bowen's defense. He gets away with a lot that goes unseen.

The same isn't said of Kirilenko and Ron Artest, who provide the same kind of man-defense without the cheap-shots. Straight up strong man-defense. No injuries. Great team-help as well (not a role Bowen is asked to do).


While I don't know about best positional defender in history, I think Bowen is a better perimeter defender than AK47. Not all around though. I think Artest is better too. I think Hassell is underrated as well.

My only point of contention is labeling him the best perimeter defender ever when him being the best perimeter defender in the league is up for debate.
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Mike@LG
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2005 2:04 pm    Post subject:

^I'll believe that when Kirilenko is relieved of being the team-rover as well.

His defense against the elite SF/SGs is well documented.

I include being a rover a part of being an excellent perimeter defender. If you can't swing away from your opponent to provide a level of team defensive help, you can't shutdown half the court in the way that Pippen and Garnett have, but players like Bowen, haven't.
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Narigon
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2005 2:31 pm    Post subject: I have yet to see AK47 shutdown 1 side of the court

This ain't football. It's not like a QB can't throw to the TE because an All-Pro is on that side of the field. It's basketball and even if Kirilenko can move away from his guy to provide weakside support, he can still be beat with smart team play passing.
To hold All-Star players from reaching their average FG% is something that Bowen should get more credit for. Like those All-Pro DB's, Bowen has his tricks in a toolbag. Prince has some, Artest has some. We see those guys less since they play in the East but they all have some tricks. It's not like all the offensive stars in the NBA don't have tricks of their own as well. Shaq & Amare push players off their spot with the ball before they dunk. Kobe, Vince, & Manu use that off-arm at times to clear for layups & dunks. Duncan & KG lean into their defender to draw fouls. Everybody has tricks. Kirilenko is a fine athlete and his defense combined with his crazy athletecism allow for him to make plays that don't seem possible. Tayshaun is like him but with slightly less skills. Bowen's knowledge of his opponent and ability to stay single coverage with any perimeter player makes him a strong part of why the Spurs are strong defensively. Artest's ability to force permiter players away from their favorite spots using his strength makes him a solid defender as well. I recall that Artest broke MJ's ribs in a practice session, so it's not like he is just a straight-up defender. Everyone tries to get an advantage, it's part of the game.
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