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Sky
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 9:58 am    Post subject: Game Talk

Talk about the games in here. No judges can go into this thread until your writeups have been sent in.

Last edited by Sky on Sat Sep 13, 2008 9:27 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 10:01 am    Post subject:

I was surprised you risked guarding Camby with MRR in your plan Cleva, and putting Hill on Magic. What was your thinking there?
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 10:11 am    Post subject:

Hill ain't Pippen... If he expects Hill to be effective on offense after Checking Magic most of the game... This reminds me of a Vanessa Williams song... "DREAMING"
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 11:43 am    Post subject:

Time,
what was your thinking in guarding Ewing with Brand for 75% of game. Seems like Brand would be way to small to guard Ewing and you don't say much about doubling Ewing. just curious.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 11:56 am    Post subject:

Michlake wrote:
Time,
what was your thinking in guarding Ewing with Brand for 75% of game. Seems like Brand would be way to small to guard Ewing and you don't say much about doubling Ewing. just curious.


Good question. I chose to go that route for a couple of reasons. First I was expecting Ewing to operate most from midrange. You do have him in the post 30%, but that leaves him out of the post and at midrange 70% of the time so that was what I expected. I wanted Kareem to be able to play more of an anchor role for our D without having to vacate the paint as much which he would do if guarding Ewing. I also wanted Kareem to not ever be in foul trouble which was a possibility if guarding Ewing as the primary defender.

As far as Brand guarding Ewing, at first glance it might seem like a mismatch, but I honestly believe Elton can guard Ewing, especially with Ewing out at midrange 70% of the game. It's true that Brand is only 6'8", but his true measured wingspan is 7'5". His standing reach WITHOUT jumping is 9'2". Brand is in his best shape ever for this season and was strong as an ox at 255lbs. He won't shut down Ewing, but he will challange him.

Of course, it all depends on whether the judges see it that way or not.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 2:23 pm    Post subject:

TIME wrote:
I was surprised you risked guarding Camby with MRR in your plan Cleva, and putting Hill on Magic. What was your thinking there?


Sure.

1. Because of his lack of O, I knew Jamas wouldn't be running anything through Camby except a pick and pop.

2. When Camby shoots, Sugar is already out so he can start the break sooner and create cross mismatch for Magic. A young Sugarr has no problem finding his man. Magic will struggle though.

3. Hill is not Pippen but he's not a scrub on D. He has the IQ and athleticism to execute the D plan.

4. Magic is used to looking over his defender to make easy passes. He had trouble whenever size guarded him. With Hill, he can't easily pass over him or post him up.

5. I expected Magic posting up. Sugar isn't small but it would take some out of him and slow Harlem down. Now Harlem is speeded up and it makes Magic work more.

So basically I don't think Camby will hurt Harlem and Hill on Magic keeps Magic away from his pet moves.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 2:33 pm    Post subject:

TIME wrote:
Michlake wrote:
Time,
what was your thinking in guarding Ewing with Brand for 75% of game. Seems like Brand would be way to small to guard Ewing and you don't say much about doubling Ewing. just curious.


Good question. I chose to go that route for a couple of reasons. First I was expecting Ewing to operate most from midrange. You do have him in the post 30%, but that leaves him out of the post and at midrange 70% of the time so that was what I expected. I wanted Kareem to be able to play more of an anchor role for our D without having to vacate the paint as much which he would do if guarding Ewing. I also wanted Kareem to not ever be in foul trouble which was a possibility if guarding Ewing as the primary defender.

As far as Brand guarding Ewing, at first glance it might seem like a mismatch, but I honestly believe Elton can guard Ewing, especially with Ewing out at midrange 70% of the game. It's true that Brand is only 6'8", but his true measured wingspan is 7'5". His standing reach WITHOUT jumping is 9'2". Brand is in his best shape ever for this season and was strong as an ox at 255lbs. He won't shut down Ewing, but he will challange him.

Of course, it all depends on whether the judges see it that way or not.

fair enough.
I would like to add that just because Ewing is only the 1st option in the post 30% of the time, doesn't mean he is outside the other 70%. Other sets like the Johnson or Pippen iso's or plays where Barry is coming off screens, Ewing could be downlow, just not the first option. He also could have a big offensive rebounding advantage in those situations.

but like you said, it only matters what the judges think.
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2Cleva
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 14, 2008 7:15 am    Post subject:

Time - Very interesting gameplan. I see you took a page out of my Don Nelson book.

Brand at SF against Grant Hill? That's riskier than Sugar on Camby, imo. Hill at least has real offensive game. Should be interesting to see how the judges view that one.

I should have spoke more about how Duncan will play vs Kareem but the lob to Sampson over the small defenders is a nice counter. Still, nice plan by you.

Nice adjustment that you used different offensive sets than the first 2 rounds. You must have planned it that way from the start but the first 2 were your 2 best sets - why not save 1?

I thought you were going to jump on this MJ quote -

Quote:
"I really don't dislike playing against anybody in the league, but playing Reggie Miller drives me nuts," Jordan wrote. "It's like chicken-fighting with a woman. His game is all this flopping type thing. Don't touch him, or it's a foul. But he has his hands on you all the time, like a woman holding your waist."
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 14, 2008 12:45 pm    Post subject:

Yeah, I decided to shake things up a bit. The new sets and lineup changes were planned. I decided to risk going with a more basic approach the first two rounds not wanting to show all my cards. I hoped to catch you off guard a bit.

I agree that Brand vs. Hill is an interesting match up. But, by your minute allotment it would more likely be Brand vs. McKie for those minutes. I'd take my chances with Brand and his wingspan guarding McKie or even Hill considering on the other side of the court he is going to be posting them up and scoring at will.

Yeah the Sampson lob should have some success over Brand, but how many lobs are you realistically expecting to complete? Maybe 4, but those 8 points are offset by the benefit I gain from Kareem guarding Duncan.

Honestly, I have never seen that MJ quote about Reggie before, and if I had I would have used it. That's a hilarious quote. If I somehow squeek by you I'll be sure to use it in the finals.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 4:20 am    Post subject:

Nice plan aabs.

Even though Penny rarely guarded MJ (mostly it was Nick Anderson) still a good usage of stats.

I'm surprised you didn't run as much through Hakeem.

You have a lot of faith in JO/LJ/Kemp.

I'm curious about your strategy of attacking Hill/Sampson so much. The Hill battle is key, especially since he's leading my 3 point attack, but why were you worried about Sampson? Are you assuming Hakeem locks down Duncan? Sampson's D is obviously key on my team but on offense he's an afterthought. Any post touches that aren't a lob for him is a bad posession
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 9:16 am    Post subject:

I did run alot thru Hakeem. The quick offense sets up Hakeem nicely. and the Base Cross makes full use of Hakeem coming off baseline lowpost screens. As far as attacking Sampson, Lets get real here. Duncan w/ Horry and Thomas battling Hakeem, JO and Kemp? Horry is who he is a clutch three point shooter but defensively. Vs. JO and Kemp? How many times did we cringe when we saw Horry being posted by them? Horry is a smart defender but that is all. As far as Hill vs LJ. They played straight up vs each other. Hill was bothered by LJ's strenght more than anything and people tend to forget how mobile, quick and explosive PRIME LJ was.

Penny vs. MJ - who guarded Penny? Scotty? then that made Penny's stats that much better. As far as Nick Anderson guarding MJ. I can remember Penny took the assignment more. I have alot of videos of the Orlando vs Bulls games, and it was almost a Mano Y Mano, thing with Penny. You can see it in his eyes, he wanted the Big Dog MJ. Check it out if you get a chance. Orlando vs Bulls. Penny was getting guarded by Scottie Pippen on offense while took it upon himself to go after Air on defense. Same with LJ, People dont realize how GREAT of a bball player Penny was before the injury.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 9:21 am    Post subject:

hey Cleve,

check out this link. Just makes us see how special MJ and Penny are as players.
MJ and Penny
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 9:23 am    Post subject:

Hey Aabs

RE: Jordan vs Penny - I think the majority of the time it was Anderson that guarded Jordan. In some situations it was Penny, but I might say Anderson was on Jordan 70 % of the time. But crunch time it was Penny vs Jordan. Those were great games. Well I guess that is where it counts eh?
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 10:16 am    Post subject:

aabs - yeah, I saw the MJ/Penny videos. I'm a huge Penny fan and recognize the game. He played the game that so many want Kobe to - the perfect balance between scoring and setting up for others.

He still wasn't MJ though

As for LJ, he was another one of my favorites but he was explosive/quick compared to the PFs he was matched up with.

Re: Horry - its just that when you're attacking Horry, its not with your strongest post up player and because they aren't great passers, Duncan can help.

I'm also surprised you opened the possibility of Hakeem in foul trouble. I thought at first for sure JO would be on Duncan. With Hakeem guarding Tim he can't protect the basket and be the anchor for the D.

I do like the motion you have Hakeem on. Hopefully the judges note that I plan on guys hanging in the key with the rules. You were ready for the 3-point attack as well.

I think I nuetralized Alvin's steals and Hakeems shot blocking though.

I think it all comes down to the Hill vs LJ matchup.
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Sky
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 4:43 pm    Post subject:

It's not Hill-LJ.

I think the Jordan stats against Orlando have to factor in the full context. MJ can't post up with Shaq and Ho around. There's nothing Penny did man up to slow down Jordan.

The question is twofold. Can Harlem survive Sampson in foul trouble? Can Barca close? If the answer is no to both then what? Check your mailboxes guys.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 4:45 pm    Post subject:

exactly Jordan didnt have success posting because Orlando had Shaq and Ho.. but in this game, Barcelona had Olajuwon and JO? a better defender than Shaq? Granted Shaq took alot of space downlow...
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 4:49 pm    Post subject:

Both bigs are away from the hoop though. Jordan succeeds in this game. But so does Hakeem.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 4:44 am    Post subject:

Not sure if anyone visits here anymore but Aabs - check this out

Quote:
The best two-way players in NBA historyby Charley Rosen

There are volume scorers and there are shut-down defenders. But the rarest of NBA players is one who excels at both ends of the game.

Position-by-position, the following constitute the best 2-way players of all-time.

Point guards

Walt Frazier was the Michael Jordan of point guards in other words, he excelled in every aspect of the game. Among his bona fides is the fact that he was the only point guard whose strong, quick-handed defense could control Jerry West.

Dennis Johnson had an acceptable jumper and was the only defender at this position who could threaten Magic Johnson's dribble to the point where Magic had to turn his back on the basket to protect the ball.

Gary Payton gambled too much on defense, often leaving his man to sneak up behind an unsuspecting dribbler. Most of his scoring was done on one-on-one moves, either on slick drives or tricky maneuvers in the low post. Still, he could dominate a game against even the most elite opponents.

Micheal Ray Richardson had a lifetime's worth of off-the-court problems during his abbreviated career. But nobody had his astounding combination of quick hands and quick feet. Had he stayed off the pipe, Sugar Ray could easily have been one of the greatest ever at this position.

John Stockton could run an offense, mastered the screen-roll, set surprisingly vicious screens, scored when he had to and played annoying defense.

Jerry West didn't have much of a left hand, but he didn't need one. True, he was a bit of a grouch whose over-the-top perfectionism often annoyed his teammates, and his clutch play is a mite overrated. Still, his pull-up jumper going right was well near unstoppable, and nobody could defend 2-on-1 fast breaks as well as West.

Shooting guards

Kobe Bryant can still play incredible defense upon occasion. But as he leaves his 30th birthday in his wake, those occasions have severely diminished. However, in selected situations during the Lakers' three-peat, he was arguably the second-best two-way shooting guard ever.

Joe Dumars was the glue of the Bad Boys' two championship seasons. He could do whatever dirty work was necessary, from playing shut-down defense to rescuing critical loose balls, from filling a lane on the break to making the pass that preceded (and enabled) the assist pass.

Michael Jordan is simply the platinum standard for every two-way player at every position.

Sidney Moncrief averaged over 20 ppg from 1982-86, scoring mostly with a deadly pull-up springer. Yet, as reliable a point-maker as he was, Moncrief was an even better defender. He seemed to attack opponents with more hands and arms than humans are supposed to possess, hence his nickname Sid the Squid.

Bill Sharman was a dead-eye shooter, and he also played defense with a combination of frenzy, savvy and power that was unequaled by his peers.

Small forwards

Ron Artest has the requisite skills and desire to smother any opponent's offense. Too bad his emotional development isn't as advanced.

John Havlicek could wear down opponents through perpetual hustle. Coupled with his extraordinary skills, instincts and smarts, Hondo was a whirlwind from baseline to baseline.

Richard Jefferson isn't super-quick and isn't a bull's-eye shooter. But he can be counted on to get the job done on and off the ball. In truth, Jefferson is one of the NBA's most underrated performers.

Bob Love had six 20-plus ppg-seasons with Chicago (1969-75) and was also a stubborn, albeit leansome, defender.

Shawn Marion's astounding spring and quickness were the keys to his effectiveness on both the uphill and downhill ends of the game. Even in his dotage, the Matrix is still a force to be reckoned with.

Scottie Pippen mostly scored on the run and by taking MJ's leftover shots. But he was a swarming, long-armed defender who had extraordinary instincts.

Power forwards

Dave DeBusschere mostly limited himself to shooting long-distance jumpers during his glory days with the Knicks, but he could also handle (he played some point guard with Detroit) and drive with great success. Moreover, DeBusschere was nothing less than the best defensive power forward in the history of the modern game.

Kevin Garnett's spidery, long-armed defense gives him terrific range. Plus, he can score from virtually anywhere in the attack zone.

Gus Johnson could run with the guards and bang with the centers. How come he's not in the Hall of Fame?

Kevin McHale was only 6-foot-10, yet his long arms and high shoulders enabled him to play as though he was Yao-sized.

Centers

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar's ability to defend depended mostly on his size and his general athleticism. Still, he managed to cover the lane and close the sky more often than not.

Wilt Chamberlain registered the only single-triple in NBA history and played overwhelming defense upon occasion. Before blocked shots were recorded, his contemporaries swore that he would average at least a half-dozen per game.

Dave Cowens employed hard fouls in lieu of blocked shots, and his effectiveness on defense can be quantified by the enormous number of bruises he dispensed. Cowens tallied most of his points on jumpers, hooks, put-backs and layups on the run.

Tim Duncan is a prime-time scorer as well as the best help-defender extant in the league.

Hakeem Olajuwon could be the most skilled player ever at the center spot. He's also one of the classiest individuals who ever laced them up at any level of competition.


David Robinson was relatively soft, limited offensively and lacked an overriding passion for the game. But he could come from another time zone and either block or discourage layups.

Bill Russell's best scoring season was 18.9 ppg (with Boston in 1961-62), tallying his points on hooks, put-backs and a rare jumper. If the points he contributed to the Celtics' dynasty were unexpected bonuses, Russell cannot be excluded from any discussion that includes the words "centers" and "defense."

Nate Thurmond didn't have much of a shooting touch but averaged 20-plus points five times in his career. In addition, he rebounded like he was a hungry wolf and every missed shot was a lamb chop. Thurmond ranks behind only Russell on the list of the NBA's best-ever defensive big men. That makes Thurmond the most accomplished two-way center who ever played in the wonderful world of the NBA.


http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/8609688/The-best-two-way-players-in-NBA-history
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 9:01 am    Post subject:

thanks for the links Cleve. You went thru some serious games there.
1st game vs. Hsenation
2nd vs the defending Champ, Jamas
3rd vs Time
and 4th vs Me (combination of Jamas & Sky - I stole so much ideas from their gameplan the past two ATL!) Gotta give those two major props.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 11:36 am    Post subject:

good luck, guys.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 3:20 pm    Post subject:

good luck
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