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themachine
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 4:07 am    Post subject:

quick photoshop

where karma happens.

http://i56.tinypic.com/210lsw4.jpg
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adtz
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 5:12 am    Post subject:

Lowest Merion wrote:
revgen wrote:
Lowest Merion wrote:
revgen wrote:
Dwarf Nebula wrote:
I've been reading this thread long enough.  I've been a Laker fan since the early 70s and I am also a huge Drew fan.  However, IMO, anyone who can't see that Blake Griffin is a likely, once in a generation player, is simply not paying attention.  Not only would the Clips not trade Griffin for Bynum;  They wouldn't trade him for anyone on the Lakers, and rightfully so.


Once in a generation?

Amare and Shawn Kemp come to mind. I think once every 10 years is a better estimation. And if Dwight wasn't 6'11, he'd be in the same discussion.


It's possible, revgen. We just don't know yet. Neither Kemp or Amare ever posted numbers like these, let alone in their rookie seasons. Only 8 players have averaged 20/12 their rookie year and they're all in the hall of fame, with the exception of Shaq, who will be.


Amare played his rookie season with a team that made the playoffs.

Kemp hardly played his first season due to his youth and immaturity. He didn't even get regular minutes until he was Griffin's age, by that time he was playing on a team that was playoff bound as well.

Blake wasn't averaging 20 points a night when he was with Kaman. Not trying to say he's a stat stuffer (he actually plays team D, unlike Love), but when he and Gordon seem to be the only guys who can actually score consistently, it kinda puts things into perspective. Whenever the Clippers win, it's usually their defense that usually gets the job done.


Like I said, we don't know yet. 

Fine. Forget Kemp and Amare. For obvious reasons.  Like I said, they NEVER had these kind of numbers, regardless of pace, regardless of their respective teams.  Malone averaged 12 rpg once. Duncan was 21 ppg and 11.9 his rookie year.  Griffin is 21.8 and 12.6 before tonight. 

I have no idea, but there's a distinct
possibility that Griffin is a truly special player. 
i just don't understand why you keep bringing out that average stats now. Somebody had mention that before kaman injured, blake is average 17.125/10.375. It immpressive, but not in the cat of "8" HOF minus shaq that is average 20/12 in the "WHOLE" seasons.
Who know blake might be average 20/12 after the season end, but it definitely not fair to argue that now.

And even blake average that, it does not prove anything yet. he did not do much impact to the team. I expect those HOF player that put in stat to make impact for the teams, even shaq just bring his team barely miss the playoff on his rookie year, and before shaq come, they are just a 20W team, that what i call impact. What did blake bring? stats stuffing , and so with his all star center who last season is average double double.
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Kobe2Walton
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 5:21 am    Post subject:

postandpivot wrote:
Dwarf Nebula wrote:
I've been reading this thread long enough. I've been a Laker fan since the early 70s and I am also a huge Drew fan. However, IMO, anyone who can't see that Blake Griffin is a likely, once in a generation player, is simply not paying attention. Not only would the Clips not trade Griffin for Bynum; They wouldn't trade him for anyone on the Lakers, and rightfully so.
i love blake. but he's not a ONCE in a generation player.

we had CHarles barkley, Shawn kemp, and karl malone playing together.
who is blake? a taller charles or a stronger kemp. but i'll say more like chuck b, cause he has all around game. the only thing he's missing is real back to basket moves. he only has one now.

blake is doing the same thing chuck was doing. where did that get chuck ? to the finals. thats it. he couldn't win with that. why not? because no one was AFRAID of chuck on the defensive end.

blake may never become a great defender. and even if he did. he's still to short to make you afraid to go in there.


pretty sure only Hakeem, Duncan, and Jordan won rings in the 90s. I guess everyone else from that generation were scrubs.

I like how you are comparing ROOKIE Blake to Barkley and Kemp and thinking that's some how not a compliment.

News flash Barkley is a top 20 player in the history of nba. and prime kemp was spectacular, he ate too much and never had work ethic, which is not a problem with Blake.

so if Blake is like Barkley and Kemp who is Bynum like? You think Bynum is better than barkley and kemp?

6 years into his career, not one complete season averaging 30 mins a game.
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adtz
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 5:28 am    Post subject:

Kobe2Walton wrote:
postandpivot wrote:
Dwarf Nebula wrote:
I've been reading this thread long enough. I've been a Laker fan since the early 70s and I am also a huge Drew fan. However, IMO, anyone who can't see that Blake Griffin is a likely, once in a generation player, is simply not paying attention. Not only would the Clips not trade Griffin for Bynum; They wouldn't trade him for anyone on the Lakers, and rightfully so.
i love blake. but he's not a ONCE in a generation player.

we had CHarles barkley, Shawn kemp, and karl malone playing together.
who is blake? a taller charles or a stronger kemp. but i'll say more like chuck b, cause he has all around game. the only thing he's missing is real back to basket moves. he only has one now.

blake is doing the same thing chuck was doing. where did that get chuck ? to the finals. thats it. he couldn't win with that. why not? because no one was AFRAID of chuck on the defensive end.

blake may never become a great defender. and even if he did. he's still to short to make you afraid to go in there.


pretty sure only Hakeem, Duncan, and Jordan won rings in the 90s. I guess everyone else from that generation were scrubs.

I like how you are comparing ROOKIE Blake to Barkley and Kemp and thinking that's some how not a compliment.

News flash Barkley is a top 20 player in the history of nba. and prime kemp was spectacular, he ate too much and never had work ethic, which is not a problem with Blake.

so if Blake is like Barkley and Kemp who is Bynum like? You think Bynum is better than barkley and kemp?

6 years into his career, not one complete season averaging 30 mins a game.
i believe PNP argument is that starting a franchise with a center is much better with a PF, making example with kemp, chuck, malone etc where all is HOF PF but with no rings. whereas it proven when you start with a legit center.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 6:09 am    Post subject:

adtz wrote:
i believe PNP argument is that starting a franchise with a center is much better with a PF, making example with kemp, chuck, malone etc where all is HOF PF but with no rings. whereas it proven when you start with a legit center.


but that's just a strawman argument.

yea starting with a center of equal talent is probably better than starting with a pf of equal talent. but what does that have to do with bynum and griffin?


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 6:24 am    Post subject:

Bynum4MVP wrote:
thurloly wrote:
I remember that, in 2009 Fianal, the Lakers took away Howard's dunk for 3 straight game. Howard looked pretty much useless on the offense.

If opponents design game plan to take away Blake R. dunk game, how will Blake R. do?

I will take Bynum. However, if Bynum keeps having injury, then Blake R.


This.

Bynum, talent and being 7 foot + makes Bynum the better player.

If Bynum was on the Clippers and getting the touches Griffin is getting, he'd be averaging 25+

Injury is the only thing that makes me think Blake and even at that, Blake has yet to prove he can stay healthy.

People have forgotten that this isn't really Blake Griffins "rookie" year.

In fact, through 2 years of their career, Bynum was far more healthy than Griffin.


Tru dat...

What I would like to see happen in the future is to get that beast over in a Laker shirt and let him and Socks terrorize the league together. Blake is frightening. You put him with Socks, and find some "merry minimums" to go along for the ride, and put the league on notice... Imagine a completely healthy Socks, and Blake!
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 7:12 am    Post subject:

postandpivot wrote:
Dwarf Nebula wrote:
I've been reading this thread long enough. I've been a Laker fan since the early 70s and I am also a huge Drew fan. However, IMO, anyone who can't see that Blake Griffin is a likely, once in a generation player, is simply not paying attention. Not only would the Clips not trade Griffin for Bynum; They wouldn't trade him for anyone on the Lakers, and rightfully so.
i love blake. but he's not a ONCE in a generation player.

we had CHarles barkley, Shawn kemp, and karl malone playing together.
who is blake? a taller charles or a stronger kemp. but i'll say more like chuck b, cause he has all around game. the only thing he's missing is real back to basket moves. he only has one now.

blake is doing the same thing chuck was doing. where did that get chuck ? to the finals. thats it. he couldn't win with that. why not? because no one was AFRAID of chuck on the defensive end.

blake may never become a great defender. and even if he did. he's still to short to make you afraid to go in there.


Good grief. Chuck not winning a title had nothing to do with people not being afraid of him. It had a LOT to do with the fact he ran into the Bulls and MJ. The same goes for Malone. A lot of people feel (not sure if I'm one of them but you never know) that if MJ hadn't taken those 2 years off they would have won 8 in a row, which means Olajawon wouldn't have won 2. And I'm pretty sure Drew isn't as good as Hakeem.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 7:34 am    Post subject:

Quote:
People have forgotten that this isn't really Blake Griffins "rookie" year.

In fact, through 2 years of their career, Bynum was far more healthy than Griffin.



True. It's just that Bynum wasn't good enough to beat Kwame Brown out of a starting position.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 7:43 am    Post subject:

vanexelent wrote:


True. It's just that Bynum wasn't good enough to beat Kwame Brown out of a starting position.


No, that isn't true. That's just Phil being Phil.

Bynum was outplaying Kwame, on the court, for well over a year. Phil just knew benching Kwame would destroy his already fragile psyche. The guy nearly had a breakdown after fans boo'd him for goodness sake.

Not to mention, Kwame was Phil's guy. He pushed for that trade and believed Kwame could live up to his potential. Which was obviously a huge blunder when you look back on it.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 8:14 am    Post subject:

divncom wrote:
postandpivot wrote:
EvilNWO wrote:
If you choose Andrew Bynum you are borderline insane.
if you choose bynum you probably no more about basketball then highlights and stats.

is Griffin better then Charles barkley? NO. atleast not yet.

So how many rings did chuck win? ZERO

if griffin Better then Malone? NOPE. not yet.
how many rings did malone win? ZERO

my boy Shawn kemp was a beast. is griffin better then kemp on his best day? NOt yet
How many rings does kemp have? ZEROOOOOOOOOOOO.

are you starting to see the light? Highlight real Pf's dont win ships. back to the basket 7 footers do.


I find it shocking that my fellow Laker fans are so short sighted and incapable of giving props to this guy (Griffin). It's not a put down or a slight on Bynum - the author of the thread just asked who was better, straight up. That's how I took it.

And as for the post I'm responding to here: Why is it that Bynum has been getting these "gimme" seasons for 6 years now ... full season after season of "he will get much better" - yet Griffin is posting BETTER NUMBERS THAN LEBRON JAMES DID in his rookie year!

That fact alone should seal the deal on this discussion.

As far as I can see from watching him play in person, this guys potential is nearly limitless - if this is what he has during his first handful of games in the NBA I don't even know what he's going to be like in four years, or six years: So ... why were/are you willing to give Bynum a massive time frame and benefit of the doubt over those years for improvement and potential when Griffin has already put up like 40 double doubles (big double doubles not small ones) in a row during the FIRST HALF of his rookie season?

Whoever is arguing the Bynum side here is really drowning in homerism. Bynum is an awesome asset but he's an asset amongst a group of all stars who ENABLE him to work.

I maintain that those who question Griffin's footwork in the post, his ability to back down defenders, spin - his ability to use the glass, his ability to be a true triple threat ALONG with his explosiveness are basing their reviews of his abilities solely on clips of him (no pun intended).

Cheers.
its not about giving props. been there done that. i told people about how good he would be when he was in college. you aint telling me nothing i dont already know.

he's charles barkley.

but i'll say it again. when was the last time a super PF got you a RING? you let me know when you have the answer.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 8:21 am    Post subject:

postandpivot wrote:
its not about giving props. been there done that. i told people about how good he would be when he was in college. you aint telling me nothing i dont already know.

he's charles barkley.

but i'll say it again. when was the last time a super PF got you a RING? you let me know when you have the answer.

Charles Barkley himself would tell you, as he did on TNT the other day, that Blake Griffin is better than him...
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 8:27 am    Post subject:

I love Drew but I can't imagine many GMs not taking Blake. The kid looks like a once in a generation talent. But I'm not sold on Griffin's health just yet.

In terms of defensive impact however the kid still has a long way to go. I didn't watch the Clipper/Knicks game...did Blake cover Amare? Cause Drew defends Stat as well as anyone in the league. And he defends guys like Bosh pretty well...not bad for a supposed lumbering center.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 8:29 am    Post subject:

Kobe2Walton wrote:
adtz wrote:
i believe PNP argument is that starting a franchise with a center is much better with a PF, making example with kemp, chuck, malone etc where all is HOF PF but with no rings. whereas it proven when you start with a legit center.


but that's just a strawman argument.

yea starting with a center of equal talent is probably better than starting with a pf of equal talent. but what does that have to do with bynum and griffin?
assuming bynum was a healthy center.

IN THIS ERA of centers. we all know there is NO COMP RIGHT? RIGHT

in this era of PF's there is Plenty of Comp right? Right

so where there's comp you have to be head and shoulders greater then all those that play your position.

Bynum has an advantage because of a lack of talent at the center position. where as blake doesn't have that advantage at PF. this moves bynum into ELITE center category. and since blake is so good, or will be so good. he will be an Elite PF.

so now you have a real debate Elite center(for this sorry era of centers) vs Elite PF(for this era of talented PF's).

elite vs elite. Now ask the question again. LOGICALLY speaking, Historically speaking, which position not person, which Elite position would you draft first to build around? a Center or a PF?

If you say a PF. i'm telling you the only reason you're saying this is because it looks FLASHY, while even a healthy 45 point scoring bynum will not look flashy. dont confuse flash with rings.

There's a reason Elite centers win ships more often then legendary PF's.

as good as blake is, i would love for us to play the clips in the offs. just so you could see what happens to Mr dunkalot.
watch how his game is shrunk even when he gets his stats while in the offs playing more halfcourt hoop then ever. having to go up against 7footer after 7footer on the lakeshow. having to bang with bynum and having to jump over bynum or out quick jump bynum on every single play.

Did you notice his back tightening up?

I did. it made me worry. because i hope they are working like crazy on his core. the guy is a strong monster already. but if he has the issues like i think he may have. its because of that constant jumping. and especially having to jump OVER bigger guys. he had to out quick and out jump Big Z. and it cost him back spasms.

well bynum aint old. so it would be even harder for Blake.

see i've played vs guys my size and shorter. and for the most part that athleticism back in the day was more then enough to get me by. even the skill was rolling. But the moment someone had me in the post against a 6'7 guy, I'm 6'2. there would be a problem.sure i could still find my points and boards. but my knees would pay the price, and so would my back and body in general. You cant teach or pay for height.

when you're shorter. you have to do so much more. that it will cost your body. this is where blake is going with his game.

i wish him the best(unless he's playing us). but i dont see it happening unless said Elite Center is a on a team full of scrubs that cant compete with the rest of blakes team. blake will not win a title without a legit center by his side. stick this statement if you need to.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 8:35 am    Post subject:

postandpivot wrote:
divncom wrote:
postandpivot wrote:
EvilNWO wrote:
If you choose Andrew Bynum you are borderline insane.
if you choose bynum you probably no more about basketball then highlights and stats.

is Griffin better then Charles barkley? NO. atleast not yet.

So how many rings did chuck win? ZERO

if griffin Better then Malone? NOPE. not yet.
how many rings did malone win? ZERO

my boy Shawn kemp was a beast. is griffin better then kemp on his best day? NOt yet
How many rings does kemp have? ZEROOOOOOOOOOOO.

are you starting to see the light? Highlight real Pf's dont win ships. back to the basket 7 footers do.


I find it shocking that my fellow Laker fans are so short sighted and incapable of giving props to this guy (Griffin). It's not a put down or a slight on Bynum - the author of the thread just asked who was better, straight up. That's how I took it.

And as for the post I'm responding to here: Why is it that Bynum has been getting these "gimme" seasons for 6 years now ... full season after season of "he will get much better" - yet Griffin is posting BETTER NUMBERS THAN LEBRON JAMES DID in his rookie year!

That fact alone should seal the deal on this discussion.

As far as I can see from watching him play in person, this guys potential is nearly limitless - if this is what he has during his first handful of games in the NBA I don't even know what he's going to be like in four years, or six years: So ... why were/are you willing to give Bynum a massive time frame and benefit of the doubt over those years for improvement and potential when Griffin has already put up like 40 double doubles (big double doubles not small ones) in a row during the FIRST HALF of his rookie season?

Whoever is arguing the Bynum side here is really drowning in homerism. Bynum is an awesome asset but he's an asset amongst a group of all stars who ENABLE him to work.

I maintain that those who question Griffin's footwork in the post, his ability to back down defenders, spin - his ability to use the glass, his ability to be a true triple threat ALONG with his explosiveness are basing their reviews of his abilities solely on clips of him (no pun intended).

Cheers.
its not about giving props. been there done that. i told people about how good he would be when he was in college. you aint telling me nothing i dont already know.

he's charles barkley.

but i'll say it again. when was the last time a super PF got you a RING? you let me know when you have the answer.


When was the last time a super C got you a ring? Hakeem was the last, and you already conventiently ignored my argument as to whether he would have won had MJ not taken 2 years off. As for PF, I'm sure Duncan played PF when the Spurs won their first title. David Robinson was the center.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 8:39 am    Post subject:

divncom wrote:
postandpivot wrote:
Dwarf Nebula wrote:
I've been reading this thread long enough. I've been a Laker fan since the early 70s and I am also a huge Drew fan. However, IMO, anyone who can't see that Blake Griffin is a likely, once in a generation player, is simply not paying attention. Not only would the Clips not trade Griffin for Bynum; They wouldn't trade him for anyone on the Lakers, and rightfully so.
i love blake. but he's not a ONCE in a generation player.

we had CHarles barkley, Shawn kemp, and karl malone playing together.
who is blake? a taller charles or a stronger kemp. but i'll say more like chuck b, cause he has all around game. the only thing he's missing is real back to basket moves. he only has one now.

blake is doing the same thing chuck was doing. where did that get chuck ? to the finals. thats it. he couldn't win with that. why not? because no one was AFRAID of chuck on the defensive end.

blake may never become a great defender. and even if he did. he's still to short to make you afraid to go in there.


First off - you're not even vaguely capable scouting wise to determine whether BG is a once in a generation player - but if there ever was/has been one, he's accomplished what he needs to do to start out on that track in his rookie season. The fact you've clearly disregarded his accomplishments and league/recognized ability demonstrate to me that your opinion is based on emotion, not rational thought.

As far as height? Is Shawn Bradley in the HOF? Is/will Yao Ming? Probably not. Is Charles Barkley? Yes.

Or how about another guy who is 6'9?

"The Mailman"

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Personal information
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Place of birth Summerfield, Louisiana
Nationality American
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Listed weight 265 lb (120 kg)


Nah, you're right - Griffin is way too small to play PF successfully.

Just like Malone was - man Malone was awful.
i need you to read before you make replies. I said blake is a PF. not a center. how tall is drew? how tall is blake? Who's the tallest?

blake, like malone, like chuck B, and kemp. they are all to small to win unless they have a LEGIT center. non of these guys ever had a really good center. thats why they all lossed to mjay. and mjay didn't have one either. so that tells you right there. that Great PF's will lose to even the one in a million chance of a super SG being the best player on said team.

anytime you lose to perimeter players it means you're not good enough in the paint on both ends together.

Luckily for mjay, hakeem's team wasn't good enough until mjay took a break.
luckily for mjay pat ewing never had another superstar player by his side(if i hear one person say starks.i'm going to smack someone).

luckily for mjay kareem was old as dirt by the time he beat the lakers. cap was retired.

this is why they say mjay played lesser comp then even some of the other centers.

and truth be told even with the dream. the reason the dream won being a 6'10 guy cause he aint 7 feet either. is because the back to the basket bigs were all gone minus pat ewing.

Drob was a superstar big. but he was more of a faceup center then a back 2 the basket guy. its why he couldnt win until timmy came along in a shorten season.

You cant win in this league without an anomalie Mjay & Pip setup. Or the traditional back 2 the basket center that also anchors the defense.

you just cant. if you dont believe it ask kemp, Chuck B, and malone what happened. they were head and shoulders better then any bulls PF or C. but still they lossed to mjay and pip. two perimeter guys.

whats one thing Chuck B, malone, and kemp all have in common on defense? No one was ever afraid to go into the paint on them.

bynum on one leg would make you think twice about going into the paint. that should tell you something. its not even about the player really. its about the size. some say what about s.bradley. bradley didnt even want to play basketball. and the guy was as thin as skinny jeans. so tall or not. he aint scarying anyone without any width. bynum has length and width.

it scares people. you guys must not understand how much that is worth.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 8:47 am    Post subject:

cirehawk wrote:
postandpivot wrote:
divncom wrote:
postandpivot wrote:
EvilNWO wrote:
If you choose Andrew Bynum you are borderline insane.
if you choose bynum you probably no more about basketball then highlights and stats.

is Griffin better then Charles barkley? NO. atleast not yet.

So how many rings did chuck win? ZERO

if griffin Better then Malone? NOPE. not yet.
how many rings did malone win? ZERO

my boy Shawn kemp was a beast. is griffin better then kemp on his best day? NOt yet
How many rings does kemp have? ZEROOOOOOOOOOOO.

are you starting to see the light? Highlight real Pf's dont win ships. back to the basket 7 footers do.


I find it shocking that my fellow Laker fans are so short sighted and incapable of giving props to this guy (Griffin). It's not a put down or a slight on Bynum - the author of the thread just asked who was better, straight up. That's how I took it.

And as for the post I'm responding to here: Why is it that Bynum has been getting these "gimme" seasons for 6 years now ... full season after season of "he will get much better" - yet Griffin is posting BETTER NUMBERS THAN LEBRON JAMES DID in his rookie year!

That fact alone should seal the deal on this discussion.

As far as I can see from watching him play in person, this guys potential is nearly limitless - if this is what he has during his first handful of games in the NBA I don't even know what he's going to be like in four years, or six years: So ... why were/are you willing to give Bynum a massive time frame and benefit of the doubt over those years for improvement and potential when Griffin has already put up like 40 double doubles (big double doubles not small ones) in a row during the FIRST HALF of his rookie season?

Whoever is arguing the Bynum side here is really drowning in homerism. Bynum is an awesome asset but he's an asset amongst a group of all stars who ENABLE him to work.

I maintain that those who question Griffin's footwork in the post, his ability to back down defenders, spin - his ability to use the glass, his ability to be a true triple threat ALONG with his explosiveness are basing their reviews of his abilities solely on clips of him (no pun intended).

Cheers.
its not about giving props. been there done that. i told people about how good he would be when he was in college. you aint telling me nothing i dont already know.

he's charles barkley.

but i'll say it again. when was the last time a super PF got you a RING? you let me know when you have the answer.


When was the last time a super C got you a ring? Hakeem was the last, and you already conventiently ignored my argument as to whether he would have won had MJ not taken 2 years off. As for PF, I'm sure Duncan played PF when the Spurs won their first title. David Robinson was the center.

umm NO> it was shaq, 3 in a row with the lakers, one down in miami.

Shaq has 4 legit rings.

duncan is 7 FEET posing as a PF. stop talking about duncan.

and notice something else. notice how these super C's can go back 2 back since you want to bring up Timmy the 7 foot PF.

Find me some PFs with Rings in the last 30 years. I'll wait.
I'll give you one. KG, and guess what he had to do? team up with 2 other super friends.

Mchale/Bird(when he played Pf) guess what he did. he was lucky enough to be on a super team just like KG.

If we're being realistic, when you build around one guy. you should hope to get one other super star. and the rest role guys right?

So you got Blake, and I'll give you D.rose. I bet you wont beat my team

with a healthy Bynum and Duran williams.

cause at the end of the day in a 7 game series once both teams know each other inside and out. its going to come down to who can get you the easiest buckets with the least amt of effort. in addition which player will deter other players from venturing into the paint for said easy buckets.

Bynum makes high jumping blake think twice. ask bynum does he care if Blake is guarding him. his answer would be KNOW. since blake is so short in comparison.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 8:52 am    Post subject:

Bynum4MVP wrote:
postandpivot wrote:

these same people thought dirk was the greatest thing since sliced bread. Bron also.

has either of these guys won anything? NOPE.


Exactly. Empty stats but no winning.

The Clippers are WORSE this year with Blake Griffin and the Wolves are only 1 game better than last year with Kevin Love putting up monster numbers.

Great for fantasy and entertainment but doesn't lead to winning.


Clippers last year WITHOUT Griffin: 17-19 - 47% wins
Clippers this year WITH Griffin: 12-24 - 33% wins

Wolves last year with Kevin Love mini stats - 8-31
Wolves this year with Kevin Love mega stats - 9-30

Meanwhile, with the return of Bynum to the starting Lineup, the Lakers have lost only 1 game and have held their opponents to a league best 87 ppg.

The Clippers are still the Clippers and the Wolves are still the Wolve.

But Bynum's return has created a night and day difference in the Lakers.


Without Kobe running the show and drawing all the attention from oppsoing teams = BYnums ^^ stats and your thoughts about them make no difference. YOu put BYnum alone with Wolves and or Clips and he is not avgeraging Love nor Griffins numbers. Give it up. Bynum is a role player in LA's attack nothing more, he is replaceable.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 9:17 am    Post subject:

postandpivot wrote:
cirehawk wrote:
postandpivot wrote:
divncom wrote:
postandpivot wrote:
EvilNWO wrote:
If you choose Andrew Bynum you are borderline insane.
if you choose bynum you probably no more about basketball then highlights and stats.

is Griffin better then Charles barkley? NO. atleast not yet.

So how many rings did chuck win? ZERO

if griffin Better then Malone? NOPE. not yet.
how many rings did malone win? ZERO

my boy Shawn kemp was a beast. is griffin better then kemp on his best day? NOt yet
How many rings does kemp have? ZEROOOOOOOOOOOO.

are you starting to see the light? Highlight real Pf's dont win ships. back to the basket 7 footers do.


I find it shocking that my fellow Laker fans are so short sighted and incapable of giving props to this guy (Griffin). It's not a put down or a slight on Bynum - the author of the thread just asked who was better, straight up. That's how I took it.

And as for the post I'm responding to here: Why is it that Bynum has been getting these "gimme" seasons for 6 years now ... full season after season of "he will get much better" - yet Griffin is posting BETTER NUMBERS THAN LEBRON JAMES DID in his rookie year!

That fact alone should seal the deal on this discussion.

As far as I can see from watching him play in person, this guys potential is nearly limitless - if this is what he has during his first handful of games in the NBA I don't even know what he's going to be like in four years, or six years: So ... why were/are you willing to give Bynum a massive time frame and benefit of the doubt over those years for improvement and potential when Griffin has already put up like 40 double doubles (big double doubles not small ones) in a row during the FIRST HALF of his rookie season?

Whoever is arguing the Bynum side here is really drowning in homerism. Bynum is an awesome asset but he's an asset amongst a group of all stars who ENABLE him to work.

I maintain that those who question Griffin's footwork in the post, his ability to back down defenders, spin - his ability to use the glass, his ability to be a true triple threat ALONG with his explosiveness are basing their reviews of his abilities solely on clips of him (no pun intended).

Cheers.
its not about giving props. been there done that. i told people about how good he would be when he was in college. you aint telling me nothing i dont already know.

he's charles barkley.

but i'll say it again. when was the last time a super PF got you a RING? you let me know when you have the answer.


When was the last time a super C got you a ring? Hakeem was the last, and you already conventiently ignored my argument as to whether he would have won had MJ not taken 2 years off. As for PF, I'm sure Duncan played PF when the Spurs won their first title. David Robinson was the center.

umm NO> it was shaq, 3 in a row with the lakers, one down in miami.

Shaq has 4 legit rings.

duncan is 7 FEET posing as a PF. stop talking about duncan.

and notice something else. notice how these super C's can go back 2 back since you want to bring up Timmy the 7 foot PF.

Find me some PFs with Rings in the last 30 years. I'll wait.
I'll give you one. KG, and guess what he had to do? team up with 2 other super friends.

Mchale/Bird(when he played Pf) guess what he did. he was lucky enough to be on a super team just like KG.

If we're being realistic, when you build around one guy. you should hope to get one other super star. and the rest role guys right?

So you got Blake, and I'll give you D.rose. I bet you wont beat my team

with a healthy Bynum and Duran williams.

cause at the end of the day in a 7 game series once both teams know each other inside and out. its going to come down to who can get you the easiest buckets with the least amt of effort. in addition which player will deter other players from venturing into the paint for said easy buckets.

Bynum makes high jumping blake think twice. ask bynum does he care if Blake is guarding him. his answer would be KNOW. since blake is so short in comparison.


Okay, I had a brain lock on Shaq. But even Shaq proves a point about a team game. In Orlando, he had all-stars around him and won nothing. He won when he was paired with a dominant wing. He won most when he was paired with Kobe. And why stop taliking about Duncan? Being 7 foot doesn't automatically make you a center. Pau is 7 ft. but his "natural" position is PF. Sure he can play C, but that's not his best position given his skillset. And since you're arguing for Bynum, then Pau would be another PF with rings. Also, you're changing the argument to fit your needs. You knock KG for being on a super team, but you're giving Drew credit for having rings? You mean Drew isn't on a super team? Not only is he on a super team, but he's contributed less in the the finals than KG did when they won it.

As for choosing teams, let's expand it. You can have Drew and D-Will. I'll take Blake and D-Rose as you say. Now I'll take Caman as my Center and you can have Antawn Jamison.
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postandpivot
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 9:42 am    Post subject:

GQue24 wrote:
Bynum4MVP wrote:
postandpivot wrote:

these same people thought dirk was the greatest thing since sliced bread. Bron also.

has either of these guys won anything? NOPE.


Exactly. Empty stats but no winning.

The Clippers are WORSE this year with Blake Griffin and the Wolves are only 1 game better than last year with Kevin Love putting up monster numbers.

Great for fantasy and entertainment but doesn't lead to winning.


Clippers last year WITHOUT Griffin: 17-19 - 47% wins
Clippers this year WITH Griffin: 12-24 - 33% wins

Wolves last year with Kevin Love mini stats - 8-31
Wolves this year with Kevin Love mega stats - 9-30

Meanwhile, with the return of Bynum to the starting Lineup, the Lakers have lost only 1 game and have held their opponents to a league best 87 ppg.

The Clippers are still the Clippers and the Wolves are still the Wolve.

But Bynum's return has created a night and day difference in the Lakers.


Without Kobe running the show and drawing all the attention from oppsoing teams = BYnums ^^ stats and your thoughts about them make no difference. YOu put BYnum alone with Wolves and or Clips and he is not avgeraging Love nor Griffins numbers. Give it up. Bynum is a role player in LA's attack nothing more, he is replaceable.
YOu're crazy in the head. in addition he wont need to average their exact numbers. thats what you dont get.

His impact goes outside of the boxscore.

Let me prove my point that a real winning coach knows better then you guys on LG.

Larry Brown chose to trade away Ratliff the DPOY that year(at 6'10 and change) for old man mutombo.

WHY? because he needed someone not only who had shot block stats. but someone who's superiour length makes you think twice about trying him.

So they chose to go with the guy with less stats but more height and more impact that doesn't show on any boxscore. now brown didnt win that year because he met the better big in snaqs.
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Mamba3301
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 9:43 am    Post subject:

GQue24 wrote:
Without Kobe running the show and drawing all the attention from oppsoing teams = BYnums ^^ stats and your thoughts about them make no difference. YOu put BYnum alone with Wolves and or Clips and he is not avgeraging Love nor Griffins numbers. Give it up. Bynum is a role player in LA's attack nothing more, he is replaceable.

This.

One is a superstar, one is a role player. But there is no use trying to reason with the Bynum fans...they just keep going in circles. The whole nation sees Blake Griffin as the future of the league. No one in their right mind would pick Bynum over Blake. The Clippers wouldn't even give him up for Melo, a perennial All-star. But delusional Bynum fans will keep arguing otherwise. You ask this question on a main forum and everyone will laugh, it wouldn't even be close.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 9:49 am    Post subject:

cirehawk wrote:
postandpivot wrote:
cirehawk wrote:
postandpivot wrote:
divncom wrote:
postandpivot wrote:
EvilNWO wrote:
If you choose Andrew Bynum you are borderline insane.
if you choose bynum you probably no more about basketball then highlights and stats.

is Griffin better then Charles barkley? NO. atleast not yet.

So how many rings did chuck win? ZERO

if griffin Better then Malone? NOPE. not yet.
how many rings did malone win? ZERO

my boy Shawn kemp was a beast. is griffin better then kemp on his best day? NOt yet
How many rings does kemp have? ZEROOOOOOOOOOOO.

are you starting to see the light? Highlight real Pf's dont win ships. back to the basket 7 footers do.


I find it shocking that my fellow Laker fans are so short sighted and incapable of giving props to this guy (Griffin). It's not a put down or a slight on Bynum - the author of the thread just asked who was better, straight up. That's how I took it.

And as for the post I'm responding to here: Why is it that Bynum has been getting these "gimme" seasons for 6 years now ... full season after season of "he will get much better" - yet Griffin is posting BETTER NUMBERS THAN LEBRON JAMES DID in his rookie year!

That fact alone should seal the deal on this discussion.

As far as I can see from watching him play in person, this guys potential is nearly limitless - if this is what he has during his first handful of games in the NBA I don't even know what he's going to be like in four years, or six years: So ... why were/are you willing to give Bynum a massive time frame and benefit of the doubt over those years for improvement and potential when Griffin has already put up like 40 double doubles (big double doubles not small ones) in a row during the FIRST HALF of his rookie season?

Whoever is arguing the Bynum side here is really drowning in homerism. Bynum is an awesome asset but he's an asset amongst a group of all stars who ENABLE him to work.

I maintain that those who question Griffin's footwork in the post, his ability to back down defenders, spin - his ability to use the glass, his ability to be a true triple threat ALONG with his explosiveness are basing their reviews of his abilities solely on clips of him (no pun intended).

Cheers.
its not about giving props. been there done that. i told people about how good he would be when he was in college. you aint telling me nothing i dont already know.

he's charles barkley.

but i'll say it again. when was the last time a super PF got you a RING? you let me know when you have the answer.


When was the last time a super C got you a ring? Hakeem was the last, and you already conventiently ignored my argument as to whether he would have won had MJ not taken 2 years off. As for PF, I'm sure Duncan played PF when the Spurs won their first title. David Robinson was the center.

umm NO> it was shaq, 3 in a row with the lakers, one down in miami.

Shaq has 4 legit rings.

duncan is 7 FEET posing as a PF. stop talking about duncan.

and notice something else. notice how these super C's can go back 2 back since you want to bring up Timmy the 7 foot PF.

Find me some PFs with Rings in the last 30 years. I'll wait.
I'll give you one. KG, and guess what he had to do? team up with 2 other super friends.

Mchale/Bird(when he played Pf) guess what he did. he was lucky enough to be on a super team just like KG.

If we're being realistic, when you build around one guy. you should hope to get one other super star. and the rest role guys right?

So you got Blake, and I'll give you D.rose. I bet you wont beat my team

with a healthy Bynum and Duran williams.

cause at the end of the day in a 7 game series once both teams know each other inside and out. its going to come down to who can get you the easiest buckets with the least amt of effort. in addition which player will deter other players from venturing into the paint for said easy buckets.

Bynum makes high jumping blake think twice. ask bynum does he care if Blake is guarding him. his answer would be KNOW. since blake is so short in comparison.


Okay, I had a brain lock on Shaq. But even Shaq proves a point about a team game. In Orlando, he had all-stars around him and won nothing. He won when he was paired with a dominant wing. He won most when he was paired with Kobe. And why stop taliking about Duncan? Being 7 foot doesn't automatically make you a center. Pau is 7 ft. but his "natural" position is PF. Sure he can play C, but that's not his best position given his skillset. And since you're arguing for Bynum, then Pau would be another PF with rings. Also, you're changing the argument to fit your needs. You knock KG for being on a super team, but you're giving Drew credit for having rings? You mean Drew isn't on a super team? Not only is he on a super team, but he's contributed less in the the finals than KG did when they won it.

As for choosing teams, let's expand it. You can have Drew and D-Will. I'll take Blake and D-Rose as you say. Now I'll take Caman as my Center and you can have Antawn Jamison.

no in orlando he had one allstar around him. dennis scott was nothing more then a spot up shooter a tall eddie house. thats it. nick anderson was sometimey and could only get his numbers with a 1000 touches shooting a bad percentage.

the reason shaq couldnt win is because.... he was out played by a better Center who had what? MORE BACK 2 the BASKET MOVES. and had defense to boot.
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vanexelent
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 9:57 am    Post subject:

Mamba3301 wrote:
GQue24 wrote:
Without Kobe running the show and drawing all the attention from oppsoing teams = BYnums ^^ stats and your thoughts about them make no difference. YOu put BYnum alone with Wolves and or Clips and he is not avgeraging Love nor Griffins numbers. Give it up. Bynum is a role player in LA's attack nothing more, he is replaceable.

This.

One is a superstar, one is a role player. But there is no use trying to reason with the Bynum fans...they just keep going in circles. The whole nation sees Blake Griffin as the future of the league. No one in their right mind would pick Bynum over Blake. The Clippers wouldn't even give him up for Melo, a perennial All-star. But delusional Bynum fans will keep arguing otherwise. You ask this question on a main forum and everyone will laugh, it wouldn't even be close.


Considering people here would take Bynum over Dwight Howard, I'm not surprised by this at all.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 9:57 am    Post subject:

Post n Pivot

If you are trying to make the case that Bynum is a player like Ratliff or Mutumbo = Then I agree. They are nothing more then role players who cant be expected to be #1, #2, nor a #3 option for their team. They are gimmick players who only are used to take up space with 7 foot frames, use their 6 fouls, and get whatever garbage numbers they can within the flow of the offense. Also meaning easily replaceable by any serviceable BIG with some skill & ability. Just like them back in their days and Bynum today they were and are OVer Paid and overrated.
_________________
All these LG'ers asking me questions...I tell em my name aint Lamar = So I dont OdOm (Owe Them)
I aint a highway fee but I toll Them = (I told THem)

"I'M NEVER WRONG, I'M ALWAYS RIGHT LIKE FREEWAY EXITS!!"
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 9:59 am    Post subject:

postandpivot wrote:
cirehawk wrote:
postandpivot wrote:
cirehawk wrote:
postandpivot wrote:
divncom wrote:
postandpivot wrote:
EvilNWO wrote:
If you choose Andrew Bynum you are borderline insane.
if you choose bynum you probably no more about basketball then highlights and stats.

is Griffin better then Charles barkley? NO. atleast not yet.

So how many rings did chuck win? ZERO

if griffin Better then Malone? NOPE. not yet.
how many rings did malone win? ZERO

my boy Shawn kemp was a beast. is griffin better then kemp on his best day? NOt yet
How many rings does kemp have? ZEROOOOOOOOOOOO.

are you starting to see the light? Highlight real Pf's dont win ships. back to the basket 7 footers do.


I find it shocking that my fellow Laker fans are so short sighted and incapable of giving props to this guy (Griffin). It's not a put down or a slight on Bynum - the author of the thread just asked who was better, straight up. That's how I took it.

And as for the post I'm responding to here: Why is it that Bynum has been getting these "gimme" seasons for 6 years now ... full season after season of "he will get much better" - yet Griffin is posting BETTER NUMBERS THAN LEBRON JAMES DID in his rookie year!

That fact alone should seal the deal on this discussion.

As far as I can see from watching him play in person, this guys potential is nearly limitless - if this is what he has during his first handful of games in the NBA I don't even know what he's going to be like in four years, or six years: So ... why were/are you willing to give Bynum a massive time frame and benefit of the doubt over those years for improvement and potential when Griffin has already put up like 40 double doubles (big double doubles not small ones) in a row during the FIRST HALF of his rookie season?

Whoever is arguing the Bynum side here is really drowning in homerism. Bynum is an awesome asset but he's an asset amongst a group of all stars who ENABLE him to work.

I maintain that those who question Griffin's footwork in the post, his ability to back down defenders, spin - his ability to use the glass, his ability to be a true triple threat ALONG with his explosiveness are basing their reviews of his abilities solely on clips of him (no pun intended).

Cheers.
its not about giving props. been there done that. i told people about how good he would be when he was in college. you aint telling me nothing i dont already know.

he's charles barkley.

but i'll say it again. when was the last time a super PF got you a RING? you let me know when you have the answer.


When was the last time a super C got you a ring? Hakeem was the last, and you already conventiently ignored my argument as to whether he would have won had MJ not taken 2 years off. As for PF, I'm sure Duncan played PF when the Spurs won their first title. David Robinson was the center.

umm NO> it was shaq, 3 in a row with the lakers, one down in miami.

Shaq has 4 legit rings.

duncan is 7 FEET posing as a PF. stop talking about duncan.

and notice something else. notice how these super C's can go back 2 back since you want to bring up Timmy the 7 foot PF.

Find me some PFs with Rings in the last 30 years. I'll wait.
I'll give you one. KG, and guess what he had to do? team up with 2 other super friends.

Mchale/Bird(when he played Pf) guess what he did. he was lucky enough to be on a super team just like KG.

If we're being realistic, when you build around one guy. you should hope to get one other super star. and the rest role guys right?

So you got Blake, and I'll give you D.rose. I bet you wont beat my team

with a healthy Bynum and Duran williams.

cause at the end of the day in a 7 game series once both teams know each other inside and out. its going to come down to who can get you the easiest buckets with the least amt of effort. in addition which player will deter other players from venturing into the paint for said easy buckets.

Bynum makes high jumping blake think twice. ask bynum does he care if Blake is guarding him. his answer would be KNOW. since blake is so short in comparison.


Okay, I had a brain lock on Shaq. But even Shaq proves a point about a team game. In Orlando, he had all-stars around him and won nothing. He won when he was paired with a dominant wing. He won most when he was paired with Kobe. And why stop taliking about Duncan? Being 7 foot doesn't automatically make you a center. Pau is 7 ft. but his "natural" position is PF. Sure he can play C, but that's not his best position given his skillset. And since you're arguing for Bynum, then Pau would be another PF with rings. Also, you're changing the argument to fit your needs. You knock KG for being on a super team, but you're giving Drew credit for having rings? You mean Drew isn't on a super team? Not only is he on a super team, but he's contributed less in the the finals than KG did when they won it.

As for choosing teams, let's expand it. You can have Drew and D-Will. I'll take Blake and D-Rose as you say. Now I'll take Caman as my Center and you can have Antawn Jamison.

no in orlando he had one allstar around him. dennis scott was nothing more then a spot up shooter a tall eddie house. thats it. nick anderson was sometimey and could only get his numbers with a 1000 touches shooting a bad percentage.

the reason shaq couldnt win is because.... he was out played by a better Center who had what? MORE BACK 2 the BASKET MOVES. and had defense to boot.


The reason Shaq couldnt win is because he didnt have Kobe. Penny was very good, but Kobe was & still is gr8 and that just cant be duplicated. And of course The Dream dug in Shaq fat Azzz
_________________
All these LG'ers asking me questions...I tell em my name aint Lamar = So I dont OdOm (Owe Them)
I aint a highway fee but I toll Them = (I told THem)

"I'M NEVER WRONG, I'M ALWAYS RIGHT LIKE FREEWAY EXITS!!"
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vanexelent
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 10:00 am    Post subject:

GQue24 wrote:
Post n Pivot

If you are trying to make the case that Bynum is a player like Ratliff or Mutumbo = Then I agree. They are nothing more then role players who cant be expected to be #1, #2, nor a #3 option for their team. They are gimmick players who only are used to take up space with 7 foot frames, use their 6 fouls, and get whatever garbage numbers they can within the flow of the offense. Also meaning easily replaceable by any serviceable BIG with some skill & ability. Just like them back in their days and Bynum today they were and are OVer Paid and overrated.


Bynum definitely has a billion times more skill offensively than either of those two, but people feared those two more when coming into the lane.
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