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What is Phil's Mid-Term Grade?

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49%

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Total Votes : 100

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LakerLogic
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Joined: 27 Mar 2005
Posts: 17886

Posted: Sat Jan 28, 2006 12:36 pm Post subject:

C for playing Luke Walton so much.

iml84myd8s
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Posted: Sat Jan 28, 2006 12:38 pm Post subject:

Just_Looking wrote:

I am also curious why those who voted to give him a C orf a D did not have the guts to posts why they feel that way?

I cannot speak for others but I shared my feelings right after I voted.

A Lakers team with arguably the greatest player and coach in the game should be leading their own division. If the Lakers were leading their division, the grade for Phil would be an A+. However, the Lakers are currently behind the Suns without Amare and the Clippers without Corey. That deserves a D, at best.

My expectations of the Lakers are to be the best team in basketball every year. That’s not always realistic. However, the Lakers have Phil Jackson as their coach and a healthy Kobe Bryant. There is NO reason to lower expectation this year.

dubaholic1
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Posted: Sat Jan 28, 2006 12:57 pm Post subject:

iml84myd8s wrote:

Just_Looking wrote:

I am also curious why those who voted to give him a C orf a D did not have the guts to posts why they feel that way?

I agree with this post and your previous one.

Phil has been resting on his laurels a bit too much this season. I expected a lot more of a hands on guy this time around but his demeanor and decision making has proven otherwise...

However I need to give myself a big dose of STFU because I was the one who said Phil was never coming back to L.A!!!

bambam
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Joined: 03 Jul 2003
Posts: 9013

Posted: Sat Jan 28, 2006 1:22 pm Post subject:

iml84myd8s wrote:

D (Phil's grade)

Cons
Hands-off approach during the draft…sat at home in Montana.
Hands-off approach on trades…Greg Pop takes full responsibility for his roster.
Moving LO to the point…Riley turned LO into an all star in the post.
Playing small ball against the Suns and other up & down teams.
Emphasis on defense has faded away as the season progressed.
Poor 3rd quarters are a result of halftime motivation and adjustments.

Riley never coached Odom.
Phil was hands on during the draft. He wanted players who were ready to play..that is until Bynum grew on him.
What would you have liked him to do? The lakers were one heart ailment away from a VERY good draft.
Hands off approach on trades? Which trades? He publicly called for artest, and rumors are that he pushed hard for it.

Playing small ball against the suns? what do you mean by that exactly? Suns force things on all teams in the NBA. Matchup nightmares.

As for the 3rd qtr lapses. Inconsistency is to be expected from a young team.

bambam
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Joined: 03 Jul 2003
Posts: 9013

Posted: Sat Jan 28, 2006 1:23 pm Post subject:

LakerLogic wrote:

C for playing Luke Walton so much.

yeah.. loses alot of points for that IMO.

Luke...just isnt effective.

bambam
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Joined: 03 Jul 2003
Posts: 9013

Posted: Sat Jan 28, 2006 1:26 pm Post subject:

iml84myd8s wrote:

My expectations of the Lakers are to be the best team in basketball every year. That’s not always realistic. However, the Lakers have Phil Jackson as their coach and a healthy Kobe Bryant. There is NO reason to lower expectation this year.

:roll: So you are grading him based on unrealistic expectations?
This team on paper was going to be lucky to make the playoffs this season.
This team has the best perimeter player in the league, one of the softest front courts and 1.. ONE...player that can truely be labled as a "STARTER" playing alongside Kobe.
The rest of the lineup makes up a good 2nd unit for most teams.

You cant give him a bad grade based on unrealistic expectations.

sodapoppenski
Star Player

Joined: 24 Apr 2005
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Location: Washington, DC

Posted: Sat Jan 28, 2006 2:05 pm Post subject:

B Team playing above it's potential overall. Good management thus far of Kobe and other personalities. Team D has slipped over the past 2-3 weeks (from 9th to 15th in league). Substitutions at times (even for Phil) have been lacking and/or strange.

JDLakers21
Sixth Man

Joined: 19 Jan 2006
Posts: 60

Posted: Sat Jan 28, 2006 2:12 pm Post subject:

I give a B+ because he is doing an excellent job with the team that he has. But like my teachers have always told me... "in order to get an A you have to do something greater to deserve it." He still has pleanty of time to pull that grade up and i believe he will.

LA_Lakers_Rule
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Posted: Sat Jan 28, 2006 2:32 pm Post subject:

Just_Looking wrote:

Quote:

As long as you insist on listing things numerically ....

But first ... why did you ignore my point about substitution patterns???

1. Mihm started 103 out of 133 games in his first two years. You forget he was the number 7 pick in 2000 and was actually expected to contribute immediately. He was a major disappointment for Cleveland. Kareem has certainly helped him this year but it is well chronicled how early this season Phil's constant benching of him every time he picked up a cheap foul was the trick that got his attention (along with Phil showing him increased confidence at crunch time).

2. You are way off base on Cook. Yes ... he improved on 3 pt shooting last year. SO what? He is not even shooting 3 pointers this year. Last year he averaged 3 attempts a game ... this year less than a HALF per game. Instead Phil has him playing a decent backup PF this year whcih is where we need him. As a result he is playing MORE not less as you claim AND his overall FG perentage is WAY UP. He is shooting 52% this year compared to 42% last year in large part because Phil has stopped using him as an oversized 3 pt specialist the way the idiots did last year.

3. Same quality players that the other teams had??? You act as if Smush had never been in the NBA before. He was a rookie for a TERRIBLE Cleveland leam that went 17-65 in 2002-03, He played 66 games and started 18 because THEY had no choice. The other points were an injured Bimbo Coles and Terrible Brown (remeber him?). Smush played himself right off one of the worst teams in the league by being unable to shoot, pass, or handle the ball. Smush is effective on the Lakers BECAUSE of the triangle offense and Phil's offensive scheme's which minimize his poor handles and allows him more scoring opportunities.

4. I agree that Sash has played a big part in his improvement. Adding muscle and working hard in teh offseason. Despite all that though he was TERRIBLE in the preseason league. Not mediocre ... TERRIBLE. It wasn't until Phil got his hands on Sash that he started to show improvement. I do think that Kobe has also done wonders for this young man's confidence. But again ... the triangle and Phil using him in crunch time ... not to mention convincing him that he can have an impact as a DEFENSIVE player ... are the primary reasons for his improvement.

5. Kobe is great ... awesome ... the best. He would play great under ANY coach. However, give Phil credit for recognizing that by taking the burden of being all things ... PG, SG and Defensive specialist ... off of Kobe it would allow him to REALLY flourish like never before. Kobe as a free flowing offensive weapon with Odom and others setting HIM up has allowed Kobe to reach his highest level yet ... and I think he has another level in him yet.

6. Yes ... George has given us strong bench support as has Cook AND Sash AND Kwame (when Phil had him backing up Mihm). BUt as I stated above ... I give Phil credit for Cook and Sash. Plus Walton ... despite everyone's perception is no worse than last year ... it's just that last year everyone else was so bad he LOOKED better. He is actually better this year in both rebounding and passing. His shot is off and he has admittedly and mysteriously disappeared in several games but ... he is what he is.

Overall ... I give Phil WAY more credit than most people for the turnaround. But then again ... that's may just be the coach in me. I was never a good enough player (except for a brief time in my HS senior year) to play great without a great coaching scheme. So I have a tendency to give more credit than most to the coach ... both good and bad. Last year's disaster IMO was mainly due to absolutely LOUSY coaching.

To reply to the substition patterns I did not intend to mean that Cook or Bynum would replace Luke in the line-up. What I was trying to say is that considering there is only so much time available for players on the court I'd rather see Cook and Bynum have more and Luke less. George would be the player to fill in for Luke of course as you suggest, and I see your point as far as proper subsitution patterns. I would still like to see Cook somehow get more minutes than he does even if it involves Cook playing along side Kwame for short stints or Bynum playing along side Kwame for short stints depending of course on the match-ups in the game. I really wasn't trying to address the intricacies of who replaces who and what postitions, which of course is a reality of course, but to just simply state my feeling is that Cook and Bynum would not only benefit from more playing time, but the team I think would benefit as well.

I think that George should be (almost) the only player who spells Odom and thus this would take away Luke's minutes as he as you say would be the one to replace Odom. At the same time I would like to see Cook get more minutes possibly when Kwame spells Mihm at center rather having Odom and Luke on the court at this time which has happened now and then. With that said your position is well taken and I appreciate your point on this.

As far as going back to Mihm and Smush's rookie season as an example of how they have not been productive in the past in not that relevant, imo. I think that going back that far is not a fair comparison as compared to what they have done for themselves more recently and more importantly where they are right now. In Mihm's case I still contend it has more to do with a year's experience starting for the Lakers and the work with Jabbar, than anything Phil has done. I think it is common place for a coach to bench a player in foul trouble to save him for later in the game and is not unique to Phil. In fact I have noticed many times where Mihm will sent half the game on the bench with just one foul, which I have not understood at all. I Smush's case a rookie season should not be compared to now considering all the work he has done both here and over seas. Smush has worked very hard at his game and I think that he was simply ready to arrive as a player this season in contrast to past seasons. Of course his opportunity to start has helped greatly but as I said before Phil really didn't have that much of a choice based on the make up of this team.

In regards to Cook shooting less three's, it is my perception that Cook seems to be concentrating on different aspects of his game more than anything. Last year he asserted himself by shooting 3's, this year he is working on a more well rounded offense. Maybe you can attribute this to Phil, but I'm inclined to think that this is Cook's doing and he would have done this anyway to develop a more rounded game for himself. As for minutes on the court, he is only averaging 2 more minutes than last year overall for the season. Taking into consideration that Cook increased minutes as the season progressed last year and also the fact that as the season has progressed this year his minutes have gone down it is possible that eventually Cook will end up with no more minutes or even less this year. The fact is Cook's minutes have been dramatically decreased in the last few weeks as a result of Phil's substition patterns. Phil found a way to insert him more often earlier and now chooses to play him less in the near term for what ever reason.

As far as Sasha is concerned he would likely improve with more time on the court, which is what he is getting. Phil can be congratulated for that if you wish, but again I'm not so sure Phil had much of a choice in the matter considering our personnel.

As far as playing Kobe off the ball this year, the Kwame trade is what has allowed that by in turn making Odom more of the facilitator. This is beneficial to Kobe for sure, but is not a new idea and also not the entire story besides. The fact of the matter, last year Chucky served as the facilitator most of the time, it was simply that Kobe was not healthy last year that affected his game more than anything.

In regards to George, he has always been a favorite of Phil's and deservedely so, imo. But this year, probably due to Odom of course, George is not getting consistent minutes on the floor, which may not be any fault of Phil in the end, I might add.

Don't get me wrong, while I've never been a big fan of Phil he has won me over to some extent this year. All I'm saying is that I really believe that most of the improvement this year is due more to personnel changes and health than it has to do with coaching. At this stage of the season considering Kobe has literally carried the team and both our offense and defense has been sporadic to say the least and our record is similar to last year, the tougher schedule not withstanding, I think a B- seems fair at this point.

Phil can improve on that assuming the players improve in their execution of the Triangle, the defense becomes more dependable and we require less dominance from Kobe which would hopefully lead to a better record for the remainder of the season. The balance of scoring is something that the Phil should be more involved in as far as working in more plays for other members of the team and trying to have less reliance on Kobe. But at the same time I am willing to be patient in this regard as the team continues to learn the Triangle.

But if the Lakers do not show improvement in these areas and the record does not improve as the season becomes more favorable then the grade will go down for Phil than what I feel it is at this point of the season.

We shall see, but I remain optimistic and have a more respect for Phil this year than I have in the past and hope the team will eventually become more consistent.

Btw, I don't "insist on listing things numerically"... as you can see...

I do appreciate your points of view and consider you suggestions as valid but I think, as you say, you may be placing to much emphesis on the coaching aspect and then again maybe I'm not, as you suggest.

But I think in the end experience and health work wonders and I'm sure you must agree that this is a "real" factor as far as players improving their impact on the court, wouldn't you...

No one is suggesting Phil is a "bad" coach, least of all me, but I have always contended that his record has had a lot to do with the players he has had in his career. And you will admit that Phil has generally taken a "hands off" approach when coaching the side-lines throughout his career. He will tend to take the stance that the players can play our of their slump which only works for veteran teams, imo.

Also another logger mentioned the confusing situation in the last game where minutes were added on the clock and all of a sudden another free throw shooter was at the line. I still don't know how the refs can do this after the fact, and I kept looking at Phil when the camera was on him to get an idea what was going on and I saw absolutely no response. I know Phil knows the game very well and while I might not agree with his coaching style at time he has proven to me that he is an excellent study of the game so all I can assume is that Phil know everything was the "up and up" on this one. It just appeared that he was not involved, however, which I think is not the first time he has appeared that way.
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bounty
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Posted: Sat Jan 28, 2006 2:58 pm Post subject:

LkrsOvrMia wrote:

23 - 19 with this roster = an "A" now and forever.

Go Lakers!!

Yup. he has tried avariety of methods to encourage players. Its up to them at some point. LO has never excelled, unfortunately PJ is getting LO's best which is that of an avg. player. he has played like shat of late
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Drifts
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Posted: Sat Jan 28, 2006 5:50 pm Post subject:

by the way...Phil gets a C Phil's a great coach. This is the same guy who had 72 & 67 win seasons for the Bulls and Lakers. He can do better than this, I refuse to believe this is already his A effort...I've never seen these wierd substitution patterns from him, and abandoning players who do not have any clue what to do (sans Kobe) is not very appealing to me. Again, we've won a lot of games because of Kobe, that's a fact. _________________ "Now, if life is coffee, then the jobs, money & position in society are the cups. They are just tools to hold & contain life, but the quality of life doesn't change. Sometimes, by concentrating only on the cup, we fail to enjoy the coffee in it." Last edited by Drifts on Sat Jan 28, 2006 6:00 pm; edited 1 time in total

easybreeze
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Posted: Sat Jan 28, 2006 5:53 pm Post subject:

I have to give him a B.

iml84myd8s
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Joined: 06 Aug 2005
Posts: 598

Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 7:52 am Post subject:

bambam wrote:

iml84myd8s wrote:

As I stated, not having enough talent around Kobe is not an excuse for having a bad team since the NBA doesn't have a hard salary cap. It's Phil's responsibility to get players around Kobe. If Phil doesn't get the guys he wants from Mitch and Buss, he tells them he'll walk just like he did once they didn't agree to negotiate a deal with Shaq. If Phil is sitting on the sideline, as the head coach, the responsibility for wins and loses starts and ends with the head coach.

Great coaches are responsible for their team. Phil is not a pawn in this league. Phil is the king and mitch is the queen who can make all the moves. But at the end of the day, the winner is the one with the king still standing. The point is that, if Phil puts his foot down during the draft, trade talks or free agent moves, Phil will get want he wants if he's willing to make it happen. If Phil is passive or hands-off, then he is to blame for the talent around Kobe!

AV
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Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 8:04 am Post subject:

I think Phil gets a strong B. The team is playing better. There have been less injuries but I still think the squad over all is playing better. I think I though Phil would get more out of Lamar, it also took him a while to realize LO can't play SF as effictively as he can PF on this squad, and also that Brown seems to play better at the C spot than PF

bambam
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Joined: 03 Jul 2003
Posts: 9013

Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 9:18 am Post subject:

iml84myd8s wrote:

bambam wrote:

iml84myd8s wrote:

:roll: What a load of crap.

There is a salary cap. Hard, Soft whatever. The team is effected by it and has a goal that was put in place before phil even signed on.
Even if there wasnt he isnt responsible for the players that are signed. Mitch is the GM, Buss controls the money.

" If Phil doesn't get the guys he wants from Mitch and Buss, he tells them he'll walk just like he did once they didn't agree to negotiate a deal with Shaq. "

:roll: :roll:

you are funny.

re4ee
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Joined: 07 Mar 2005
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Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 9:48 am Post subject:

LA_Lakers_Rule wrote:

Drifts wrote:

Quote:

I'm not impressed. We've won more games because of Kobe's heroics than Phil's coaching...

I think there is a lot to be said here...

What do you think our record would be now if Kobe were averaging 27 PPG this season as he did last year as oppossed to the 34 PPG he is averaging this year!!!

That is a difference right there of 7 ppg!!

I'll tell you what our record would be, we would undoubtedly have a losing record this year and the fact is our scoring would be less than what our defense gives up.

Kobe's ability to play healthy and raise his average dramatically is unquestionably a critical aspect to our above 500 record so far.

As Drift's suggests, a healthy Kobe is the biggest factor to our winning record this year. But beyond that I think the more balanced team in the front line (especially defensively) along with a healthy George who adds even more needed defense that was missing last year.

Fact is it is not the offense that has kept us above 500, but the defense and I really don't think that Phil and the Triangle offense has a lot to do with that. Rather it is having the players that can contribute that kind of play as oppossed to what we had last year that is making the difference.

Oh, you don't? What was the biggest factor in freeing Kobe to score that extra 7ppg? Maybe, just maybe a well defined role in the triangle, moved to the wing, to free him up to be able to score more!

Now I'm going to point out some misconceptions.

What is the FIRST step a Head Coach makes when taking a new post? He assembles a STAFF, in that capacity, I will definately give Phil an A. (Along those lines, the claims that KAJ wasn't working with Kwame AT ALL, that was not what he said, read it again)

You folks all read that Dime piece, yet you still fault Lamar for not "getting" the initiator role yet, Kobe, in his own words, TOLD you how difficult it is, and how long it took HIM to "get it". So lay off Lamar, he's doing OK adapting to a COMPLETELY NEW ROLE, for him. Phil is doing the right thing, letting him learm "on the job". Did y'all forget that with the new CBA, traing camp was shortened to THREE DAYS!

So when it comes to piecing together THIS roster, and fitting it into the triangle, Phil gets no grade to this point, because it is too early to tell if his vision is any good or not!

Defensively, well, at least he has a defensive system, unlike last season's "playground" D! But, I think he's a little too slow at adjusting the D, in games. When the FC trap is getting burned, drop out of it. When 1-on-1 match-ups are not stopping anyone, switch to a zone! So overall, on D, he gets a C, He needs to be more proactive.

Triangle teaching, again, too early to be fair, he MAY be trying to take shortcuts, or maybe he's right on track. In game sustitutions, that's difficult to judge, there are so many variables, how each player was in practice, who's healthy, what match-ups are or aren't working, what specific areas each player needs work on, and where can Phil get it for him. From the outside, it's impossible to know what Phil is trying to accomplish, game to game, so I won't try.

On Phil's dealing with the media, in general and Kobe in particular. B and B.

Overall, I guess I'd have to go with an INCOMPLETE, I don't even know what to judge his performance against!

OH, and a couple more things...
Before the trade of Caron for Kwame, the mantra here was that we had too many SF's and just HAD to get a legitimate PF, OK we got a "project" PF, but the price was a bargain. Where would the Lakers be with Caron and no Kwame? Lamar @4 (and getting beat-up), Kobe @2 (wearing out late in games), etc. I think that part of the decision to get Kwame was that it allowed Phil to move Kobe to the wing.

For anyone on here to make the CLAIM that Ronny Turiaf is going to supplant Kwame at PF, you're nuts. He hasn't even played in ONE NBA game, yet.

Kevin DuBrow
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Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 11:02 am Post subject:

Rudy T: 24-19 Phil: 23-20 Since Rudy was driven away with a better record, perhaps Phil deserves an 'F'.

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