What a difference a coach makes...
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teej
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2006 11:23 pm    Post subject:

I dont understand why you guys even bother discussing with Odomx2.

He talks out of his pie hole and everyone else that disagrees is wrong.

Rudy did beter than P-Jax?
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critical_beatdown
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2006 11:26 pm    Post subject:

Rudy was 24-19 at this point last year, but I agree that Phil has done a better job with a much more inexperienced and poor shooting team.

How can anyone possibly say Rudy wasn't a great coach?

And I don't mean with us.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2006 11:27 pm    Post subject:

Klassix wrote:
Come on now, now people are saying Flip Saunders is such a great coach? Gimme a break. Flip had plenty of talent in Minne, and got out of the first round, ONCE!


Minny missed 4 years in the draft. Who did Flip have besides Garnette. Wally(no defense) Scerbiak? Old men Cassel and Spree?. Jr. Rider? Olowakandi? When Wolves played us, Cassel had a very bad back injury in the playoffs and didn't even play some games.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2006 11:30 pm    Post subject:

critical_beatdown wrote:
Rudy was 24-19 at this point last year, but I agree that Phil has done a better job with a much more inexperienced and poor shooting team.

How can anyone possibly say Rudy wasn't a great coach?

And I don't mean with us.


One could argue that Rudy was a great coach for the Rockets during the Olajuwon days... but I think even that is a stretch.
The Houston team that was winning championships was a truly great team, and I don't think that Rudy's coaching added to their success at all.

Personally, I think any coach with a playbook that consists of about 5 plays cannot be considered a "good" coach, let alone a great one.
Rudy's main play with Barkley, Francis, Mobley and Kobe was isolation, even when the league switched to zone rules.
And I do mean MAIN play, as it was utilized probably around 50% of the time.

Ridiculous stuff, especially for a coach who was paid that much.
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K8KillerInstinct
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2006 11:36 pm    Post subject:

All you Phil Haters (Odomx2 and others) have no idea. It seems as if after each loss these people come back and try to find the negatives. If you guys believe that Flip is better than Phil, you shouldn't be able speak, period. If Phil were coaching Detroit and Filp coaching Lakers, then Lakers would become instant winners, right. Name one coach in the NBA, that could make the Lakers better than they are now. U just cant teach monkeys to be rational, it just doesnt happen. Same situation here, Kobe is surrounded by bunch of idiots who doesn't have any fundemental of basketball and you guys expect Phil to do better? I think we are doing much, much better than expected at this point. B4 the season, most writers thought we would be the next Atlanta Hawks with Kobe going wild (seriously I have prove). But now NBA.com ranks us 8th in the NBA, and most other sources ranked us in the top 10.
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K8KillerInstinct
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2006 11:38 pm    Post subject:

Besides we only lost by 9 pts, and trust me Detrioit beat the Spurs and other elite teams by more than 15 pts already this year.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2006 11:47 pm    Post subject:

Laker Lurker wrote:
Saunders actually calls time out and helps his player compared to Jackson who doesn't do anything but let "them figure it out for themselves" The triangle sure makes a good facade to hide lack of coaching talent. I have been watching Jackson when the other team makes a huge scoring run. Jackson looks as confused as his players- I guess he is letting them figure it out for themselves because he has no idea whats happening either.


Sure lets bash the coach with nine blings and praise the one with two playoffs series wins.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2006 11:50 pm    Post subject:

K8KillerInstinct wrote:
All you Phil Haters (Odomx2 and others) have no idea. It seems as if after each loss these people come back and try to find the negatives. If you guys believe that Flip is better than Phil, you shouldn't be able speak, period. If Phil were coaching Detroit and Filp coaching Lakers, then Lakers would become instant winners, right. Name one coach in the NBA, that could make the Lakers better than they are now. U just cant teach monkeys to be rational, it just doesnt happen. Same situation here, Kobe is surrounded by bunch of idiots who doesn't have any fundemental of basketball and you guys expect Phil to do better? I think we are doing much, much better than expected at this point. B4 the season, most writers thought we would be the next Atlanta Hawks with Kobe going wild (seriously I have prove). But now NBA.com ranks us 8th in the NBA, and most other sources ranked us in the top 10.


Phil has a second star in Odom or least what can I believe since people say he nixed Odom for Artest-Croshere. You reap what you sow- no excuses-and if Phil picked the players, ie Walton, Cook then its up to Phil as coach to make good.
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LakeLakeLake
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2006 12:02 am    Post subject:

OdomX2 wrote:
JIFISH wrote:
Jackson has done more with this group of players than any other coach could accomplish in this period of time. When Saunders took over the Pistons, he was in a similar position to Jackson his first time around, in that he had a core group of players who'd been playing together for several years. And, unlike the Lakers, he doesn't have a mamouth contract like Shaq's that limits what can be added. Saunders is not a bad coach, don't get me wrong. He's probably going to prove himself superior to Brown. But I'm not ready to say he's better than Jackson, and I'm not sure there are many people aside from the Jackson-haters like yourself who are.


Right, because it takes a genius to tell Kobe to do a Wilt like impression for us to win...AGAIN, who is better this year under Phil? Name 1 PLAYER!!


Kobe Bryant.

Do you remember the way Kobe played in Rudy T's clueless offense?
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2006 12:14 am    Post subject:

OdomX2 wrote:



How about the ZEN master and his 10 Million per, the only offseason Buss move, make Cook and Bynum and Kwame and Walton and Sasha and every other (bleep) player outside of Kobe...BETTER!!! I don't care about record, I want to see the players on this team get better. Really, without Jackson's favorite book topic, the Lakers would have 5 wins...


chill on the haterade dude. It'll do a world of good for your blood pressure.
Most coaches in the NBA aren't in the business of teaching the game to these kids. PJ is no exception. What they practice is offensive and defensive sets. That's why they got the cap teaching Mihm and Bynum on the side.

The team's execution is much better since early in the season. We're playing defense that makes us look like the pistons compared to last years stunted team. You keep saying you don't care about the record, I sure as hell do. We're 3 games over 500 with one of the league's toughest schedules. If you really think Rusy T's moronic offense and no defense would have landed us this record with the same schedule then pass me whatever you smoking. Once this road trip is over we get a chance to gain some ground on the teams with better records. Tell me you don't care about the record when we're 8 or so games over 500 and then I'll believe you.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2006 12:56 am    Post subject:

OdomX2 wrote:
critical_beatdown wrote:
I think you have to give Phil the balance of a season or two. Comparing his team to Saunders' veteran Pistons team isn't fair.

The best I can see as regards Phil's performance is he knows he has a young team, and he wants to compress/condense the time necessary to get them tested and battle-ready. All Phil cares about is playoff wins and championships. With that in mind, he wants to develop the guys he has as quickly as possible.

With that in mind, he's a bit hands off during games (not in practice), and is pushing Lamar hard to play outside his comfort zone and develop new skills and abilities. Simultaneously, he's putting the young guys in situations to sink or swim, and most of the time we're at least treading water.

I've little doubt that Phil could flip a switch if he wanted to, play Lamar more suited to his actual strengths, and win more games, and also win some games more decisively. But I don't think Phil cares about doing that...doesn't care about regular season wins other than staying on playoff pace. As long as we stay on playoff pace, and steadily climb above .500, I seriously doubt Phil will change course, and will continue to test and put Lamar and the youngsters through the crucible.

Phil doesn't want to wait 3 years, so he's taking risks and trying to accomplish speed-maturing and development. His timeline all along has been to gel as a team sometime in the 2nd half of the season.

I'm sure Phil has surprises in store for any teams that meet us in the playoffs, which will likely include Lamar reverting back at key times to a more traditional aggressive post role. In the meantime, he's trying to make Lamar a better and more complete player.



What a crock of (bleep).


It's his MO. He truly believes he knows what he's talking about.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2006 1:01 am    Post subject:

KA_2 wrote:
OdomX2 wrote:
critical_beatdown wrote:
I think you have to give Phil the balance of a season or two. Comparing his team to Saunders' veteran Pistons team isn't fair.

The best I can see as regards Phil's performance is he knows he has a young team, and he wants to compress/condense the time necessary to get them tested and battle-ready. All Phil cares about is playoff wins and championships. With that in mind, he wants to develop the guys he has as quickly as possible.

With that in mind, he's a bit hands off during games (not in practice), and is pushing Lamar hard to play outside his comfort zone and develop new skills and abilities. Simultaneously, he's putting the young guys in situations to sink or swim, and most of the time we're at least treading water.

I've little doubt that Phil could flip a switch if he wanted to, play Lamar more suited to his actual strengths, and win more games, and also win some games more decisively. But I don't think Phil cares about doing that...doesn't care about regular season wins other than staying on playoff pace. As long as we stay on playoff pace, and steadily climb above .500, I seriously doubt Phil will change course, and will continue to test and put Lamar and the youngsters through the crucible.

Phil doesn't want to wait 3 years, so he's taking risks and trying to accomplish speed-maturing and development. His timeline all along has been to gel as a team sometime in the 2nd half of the season.

I'm sure Phil has surprises in store for any teams that meet us in the playoffs, which will likely include Lamar reverting back at key times to a more traditional aggressive post role. In the meantime, he's trying to make Lamar a better and more complete player.



What a crock of (bleep).


It's his MO. He truly believes he knows what he's talking about.


Not really. I'm just speculating on the available information. Trying to evaluate and situate what I've seen so far. I don't how many times I have to make a point about how "we all have our opinions and none of us can 'prove' them" before this nonsense about how I "truly believe" this stuff will go away, and the people saying it stop clowning themselves, not to mention show some of the posters they disagree with a little respect, instead of being little Nazis about it.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2006 1:46 am    Post subject:

^ Your posts don't deserve any respect. You think Lamar Odom is a solid overall defender, excellent 3-point shooter, and future All Star. Your posts speak for themselves. As long as you continue to respond to threads on this board, you continue to get chewed out for saying such asinine things.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2006 2:13 am    Post subject:

KA_2 wrote:
^ Your posts don't deserve any respect. You think Lamar Odom is a solid overall defender, excellent 3-point shooter, and future All Star. Your posts speak for themselves. As long as you continue to respond to threads on this board, you continue to get chewed out for saying such asinine things.


Straw men, other than the defender part. I do think people don't recognize Lamar's overall defense, and "solid" does not mean "great", in my mind it means "dependable".

I do not think Lamar is an excellent 3-point shooter - I very clearly stated that he was an excellent 3-point shooter from November 20 or so until the first week of January (when I wrote the thread), when Lamar was 40%. For the season, I said he was "good", at that stage. Since, I've mentioned several times that Lamar has leveled off, even slumped from 3, and is no longer even "good" in my opinion.

Also, I said that Lamar could be an all-star for some teams with more suitable systems (for instance, had Lamar stayed in Miami and we kept Shaq he would have been an all-star there). I don't think that Lamar will ever be an all-star on the Lakers (though he could be a "star" if we become dominant again and he either learns his new role or shifts to a more suitable one).

Aside from the straw men, I do feel that Lamar is an excellent player, overall, and I'll stand behind that, regardless of the slump he's currently in, or the role Phil is pushing him to play that ultimately might be wishful thinking.
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eniq 0x00
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2006 2:46 am    Post subject:

Laker Lurker wrote:
Saunders actually calls time out and helps his player compared to Jackson who doesn't do anything but let "them figure it out for themselves" The triangle sure makes a good facade to hide lack of coaching talent. I have been watching Jackson when the other team makes a huge scoring run. Jackson looks as confused as his players- I guess he is letting them figure it out for themselves because he has no idea whats happening either.


They don't have practices, right? They get no feedback when they sit on the bench, right? Nothing during timeouts, right? I'm amazed you haven't leaked out this pertinent info to news outlets-for the deserved bashing the coach oh-so desperately needs. The amount of baseless whining is hilarious. You guys really provide me with much amusement.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2006 5:34 am    Post subject:

OdomX2 wrote:
M. Hicks wrote:
When Phil had great talent, people sniffed that he only won because of it. What's the rhetoric now?

As it stands, this team is 23-20, with a superlative player, some should-be-betters, a couple of average players, and a remaining roster who should thank their lucky stars that they are NBA players.

Phil's methods and substitutions may be maddening at times, but there isn't another coach in this league that would do better with this roster.

You're ranting about this loss, knowing that the roster is what it is, playing against a team, at home, that has gotten off to one of the better starts in NBA history...and you're going to fault Phil for this somehow?

Man, are you crazy?




Just not true. In fact Rudy did better at the same time last year with a...give it to Kobe game plan. I would contend that not many coaches could do worse, given Kobe's superman year.


Sorry buddy, that doesn't fly.

Difference is, this year, the "tough" part of our schedule was in the first half, and the team is 23-20. They are near .500 (11-12) on the road. That is significant.

Last year, the first half was mostly home stands. So, saying it's "the same" is simply not correct.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2006 7:49 am    Post subject:

Phil's a better coach than Rudy, but Mr. T was a good motivator and got players like Caron, Chucky, Cookie and Jumaine to play better than expected.

Phil's done even better getting something out of players like Smush, Vujacic, Walton.

But as mentioned throughout this thread, the Lakers have limited talent. However IMO it isn't the talent as much as it is the brains that's stopping them from being a .600 ballclub.

Odom and Kwame are the two highest paid players after Kobe because they are supposed to be the two best talents on the team after him.

Due to their lack of "brains" and understanding of the "Tri" both are underachieving. So while this is something that many will overlook, one has to understand that the Lakers are in the playoff 8 without their two best talents (after Kobe) giving the Lakers what they should be. What was anticipated before the season.

Is that coaching? Maybe. I think it's got more to do with Phil's system than his cocahing style. The Triangle is really hard for some of these guys. Odom and Kwame are simply not giving the Lakers what they should be in this offense.

But in all fairness, Phil always said it's the 2nd season of the Triangle that allows most players to feel comfortable in it.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2006 8:40 am    Post subject:

You don't have to be a genius to know that Kobe is not a PG, he is a shooting guard. To maximize his talent, you put him in the wing position in the tri.

Kobe had plantar fasciitis last year. This year, Kobe is healthy and has single-handedly carried the Lakers on his shoulders. It's not like Kobe just realized he had all these abilities...he was as good last year as he is this year, but plantar fasciitis slowed him down.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2006 8:45 am    Post subject:

Quote:
Kobe had plantar fasciitis last year. This year, Kobe is healthy and has single-handedly carried the Lakers on his shoulders. It's not like Kobe just realized he had all these abilities...he was as good last year as he is this year, but plantar fasciitis slowed him down.

Disagree.

Kobe's much fitter this season. It's almost as if he doesn't ever get tired.

You can thank his off-season work ethic way more than you can Phil.

I don't think when PJ said he wanted Kobe doing less this season, he anticipated that Kobe would be averaging 36 a game.

That is not doing less, as although he's doing less ballhandling - he's also scoring 9 more points and taking 6-7 more shots. Factor in that his defensive effort is much better too.

He is just in incredible shape this season.
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K8KillerInstinct
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2006 12:59 pm    Post subject:

Laker Lurker wrote:
K8KillerInstinct wrote:
All you Phil Haters (Odomx2 and others) have no idea. It seems as if after each loss these people come back and try to find the negatives. If you guys believe that Flip is better than Phil, you shouldn't be able speak, period. If Phil were coaching Detroit and Filp coaching Lakers, then Lakers would become instant winners, right. Name one coach in the NBA, that could make the Lakers better than they are now. U just cant teach monkeys to be rational, it just doesnt happen. Same situation here, Kobe is surrounded by bunch of idiots who doesn't have any fundemental of basketball and you guys expect Phil to do better? I think we are doing much, much better than expected at this point. B4 the season, most writers thought we would be the next Atlanta Hawks with Kobe going wild (seriously I have prove). But now NBA.com ranks us 8th in the NBA, and most other sources ranked us in the top 10.


Phil has a second star in Odom or least what can I believe since people say he nixed Odom for Artest-Croshere. You reap what you sow- no excuses-and if Phil picked the players, ie Walton, Cook then its up to Phil as coach to make good.


What? Please clarify. But from what I know, Phil DIDN'T "NIX" the Odom-Artest trade. It is pretty clear that Phil wanted Artest, it was Jerry Buss who said no to the trade. Secondly, when did Odom become a "star." Odom was never a star and never will be. In order to be a star, you must be competitive and must be strong, desire to win, etc (look at Kobe for example).l
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2006 1:42 pm    Post subject:

1 Season, and the records are similar but the final count is at the End of the Season... Statistically using the W-L is too close...
Regardless of whom we have played...
Plus to the fact that we tanked at YE last year


Last Year Lottery Lakers
This Year? To be Determined


All along the Lakers have said this is a rebuilding year, so perhaps its experiementation of who we will build with...
Kobe And...

Having said that...
From birdseye view at Staples...
And in my humble opinion:
I feel we can be in every game- vs getting blown Out early...

Our Offense had more mojo last year...
Butler, Atkins provided more punch...
JJ was a nice relief

Our defense is better this year...
All-Around...
Smush, (tell him to put his hands up...)

No Devean Last year -- Has presence at times this year
Sasha, much better but needs improvement
Cook, much better
KBrown- Allows us to have bigs +5 fouls...
- However, I think he he needs to improve alot
Walton, sporatic- tell him not to take those wild shots
Bynum - Waiting...
Slava MIA...

McKie ... ? Who...>?

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2006 3:22 pm    Post subject:

critical_beatdown wrote:
I do think people don't recognize Lamar's overall defense, and "solid" does not mean "great", in my mind it means "dependable".


Informed fans are laughing at you.

critical_beatdown wrote:
I do not think Lamar is an excellent 3-point shooter - I very clearly stated that he was an excellent 3-point shooter from November 20 or so until the first week of January (when I wrote the thread), when Lamar was 40%.


He still wasn't a good 3-point shooter during that stretch, because he was hitting all totally wide open jumpers, and, most notably, you claimed fans shouldn't crticize Odom's lack of 3-point shooting ability simply because of that one streak.

critical_beatdown wrote:
I don't think that Lamar will ever be an all-star on the Lakers (though he could be a "star" if we become dominant again and he either learns his new role or shifts to a more suitable one).


Here's when you said Odom would be an All Star next season:

critical_beatdown wrote:
Lamar will be an all-star next year, at 16/8/8 (he will need to rebound less as Mihm, Kwame, and Bynum step up; leaving more opportunities for him to leak into transition and focus on help defense and playmaking).


This is funny yet sad at the same time.

Even more ridiculous BS posted by critical_beatdown:

critical_beatdown wrote:
...to be honest, between the two guys [Kobe & LO] they cover almost every aspect of the game. Though you can't tell by the scoring, if you look at the overall impact, in terms of scoring, initiating, playmaking, rebounding, etc., we've got one of the most dominant and complimentary twosomes ever.


The humanity.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2006 6:07 pm    Post subject:

bump.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2006 6:31 pm    Post subject:

KA_2 wrote:
bump.


damn right "BUMP"

Larry sure has made a difference. Look at how much better detroit is without his ugly inefficient basketball.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2006 1:49 am    Post subject:

This deserves a bump indeed.

Anyone who thinks Rudy T was a great coach should not be discussing basketball on a hardcore fan site.

Perhaps espn.com would suit him better?
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