Some people are going to soon realize how important Odom
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wolfpaclaker
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2006 11:18 am    Post subject:

eniq 0x00 wrote:
wolfpaclaker wrote:

But our starting PG is Smush Parker. He had 8 TO's yesterday trying to do not even half of the responsibility that LO ussually has (and Kobe was doing the other half)


Most of those turnovers weren't forced, so it's just a matter of the guy learning to be more cautious. He'll learn, there's no doubt about it. I doubt anyone else feels worse about those turnovers than him.

You don't get my point.

Smush isn't a PG. He is best suited to be a SG. Meaning a guy that can bring the up the court at times (because he has the handles) but not be put in a situation where he is expected to be a passer or set up man consistently. He is better off spotting up and hitting those 3's. Also he's good at working the drives of the weakside and get an easy layup. So a guy that looks for his shot first and foremost, handles and shoots from 3.

His role is of a SG. Put him in as a PG, and IMO he will fail.


Last edited by wolfpaclaker on Sat Feb 04, 2006 11:20 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2006 11:19 am    Post subject:

The irony is Bynum plays well against both the last teams. He doesn't seem to get PT. Bynum had 8 points and 9 rebounds in 12 minutes against Indiana over a span of two games. He had 2 points, a rebound and 2 assists against the Bobcats, but only got 5 minutes in the last game.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2006 11:49 am    Post subject:

TOP 30 NBA Players in EFFICIENCY within 2 inches in height either way of Odom:

01. Garnett
PPG 22.0 RPG 11.30 APG 4.5 EFF + 29.71
02. Brand
PPG 25.0 RPG 10.40 APG 2.8 EFF + 29.45
03. James
PPG 31.0 RPG 6.90 APG 6.4 EFF + 29.38
04. Nowitzki
PPG 25.6 RPG 8.50 APG 2.5 EFF + 25.76
05. Bosh
PPG 22.7 RPG 9.10 APG 2.4 EFF + 24.53
06. Duncan
PPG 19.9 RPG 11.60 APG 2.9 EFF + 24.43
07. McGrady
PPG 27.0 RPG 7.20 APG 4.9 EFF + 23.18
08. Gasol
PPG 19.8 RPG 9.20 APG 4.3 EFF + 22.87
09. J Oneal
PPG 20.9 RPG 9.80 APG 2.3 EFF + 22.06
10. Howard
PPG 15.2 RPG 12.70 APG 1.4 EFF + 21.48
11. Kirilenko
PPG 15.8 RPG 8.40 APG 4.4 EFF + 21.30
12. Lewis
PPG 21.9 RPG 5.70 APG 2.4 EFF + 21.28
13. Weber
PPG 19.5 RPG 9.80 APG 3.2 EFF + 20.45
14. Odom
PPG 14.0 RPG 9.40 APG 5.3 EFF + 20.29

15. Anthony
PPG 25.4 RPG 5.30 APG 2.5 EFF + 19.87
16. Jamison
PPG 19.1 RPG 9.90 APG 2.0 EFF + 19.57
17. West
PPG 17.0 RPG 8.00 APG 1.2 EFF + 19.09
18. Wallace
PPG 15.2 RPG 6.60 APG 2.6 EFF + 18.11
19. Harrington
PPG 18.9 RPG 7.10 APG 3.0 EFF + 17.84
20. Randolph
PPG 18.2 RPG 8.70 APG 2.0 EFF + 16.66
21. Okafor
PPG 13.2 RPG 10.00 APG 1.2 EFF + 16.42
22. Gooden
PPG 10.9 RPG 8.80 APG 0.7 EFF + 16.07
23. Hill
PPG 16.8 RPG 4.50 APG 2.6 EFF + 15.27
24. Martin
PPG 13.4 RPG 6.60 APG 1.4 EFF + 15.16
25. Stojakovic
PPG 16.8 RPG 5.50 APG 2.2 EFF + 15.06
26. Battier
PPG 11.5 RPG 4.90 APG 1.8 EFF + 14.64
27. Deng
PPG 13.3 RPG 6.00 APG 1.7 EFF + 14.43
28. Thomas
PPG 9.0 RPG 7.90 APG 1.2 EFF + 14.24
29. Prince
PPG 14.3 RPG 4.30 APG 2.3 EFF + 13.24
30. Haslem
PPG 8.9 RPG 7.50 APG 1.2 EFF + 13.17

After reading so many threads containing opinions from so many forum member that consider Odom a "role player", I felt compelled to go to all the trouble to list the BEST NBA players of similar size to Odom in regards to effeciency.

It is clear that Odom is NOT A ROLE PLAYER... PERIOD!!!

Odom is in the top 15 players on this list of the leading NBA players close to his size. Also keep in mind that not only are ultimately all the players above and some below Odom on the list considered ALL STAR caliber players but many are 7 footers as well.

Fact is for anyone to presume Odom to be a role player would place the 16 players below him on the list to be role players as well. To put it simple, to consider Odom a "role player" is just simply out wrong on it's face and frankly reveals those who make this claim either their flat out level of ignorance or prejudice they have for this player.

People, for those who feel Odom is a role player, PLEASE take a look at the players from 15-30. Are these players role players ?


To give another example:
Artest is 3 inches shorter so not on the list but as we all know is often spoken of in this forum as the player to take us over the top and also very often an example of a trade we should have made. Note that even Artest's efficiency rating is below that of Odom by a wide margin. Many have even suggested a one for one trade involving these two players.

Artest
PPG 19.4 RPG 5.30 APG 2.3 EFF + 16.42

I submit to you that a more typical "role player", at the very worst, would be for example Griffin.

Griffin
PPG 5.4 RPG 6.20 APG 0.6 EFF + 9.62

This would be much more exemplier of the stats of a role player, imo, and still Griffin is regarded as a very desirable player on this forum.

If you want to look at an example of a player who can be considered unquestionably as a "real" role player possibly that would be:
Outlaw
PPG 1.6 RPG 2.40 APG 0.6 EFF + 3.36

We can complain all we want about Odom's consistency or motivation. But he is certainly NOT A ROLE PLAYER!!!

I would hope that this would end these out landish statements that Odom is a ROLE PLAYER, but I know it won't... :roll:
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wolfpaclaker
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2006 11:54 am    Post subject:

Isn't a role player someone that does only one thing for a team?

I guess you could call Odom a multi-role player. A stud role player, if you will.

I don't think it's fair to call him just a role player. I mean he's no superstar, but he is good at doing many things.

Is there any guy in the NBA that gives a team as much as Odom does and is labeled a "role" player?

Ben Wallace was labeled a role player in his early Detroit days. Over the years, he mastered his role so well that now he's an All-Star. But even Ben brings more than just one facet to the game. He's that team's best rebounder, shotblocker and interior defender. That's 3 things .....
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2006 12:01 pm    Post subject:

Car54 wrote:
DuncanIdaho wrote:
We arguably missed Odom more than Kobe during their injury stints last year. Of course he helps us out. The problem is, someone like Artest could have probably helped us out more.

We'll see.


If we could have gotten Ron without losing our best rebounder it would have helped. But to say he would have helped more i have to disagree. where he would have helped on defense & scoring we would have lost in rebs and as a pg of team. i dont know about yall but i dont trust mihm and kwame enough in the reb department.


We outrebounded the Bobcats last night without Odom. The statistics show the Lakers don't lose anything in the rebounding department when Odom is off the court.

Last night the Lakers lost because of terrible defense and missing wide open looks. Lamar doesn't stand out in either of those areas. Could we have used him, of course, but the team still managed to score 102 points last night and outrebound the Bobcats without Odom.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2006 12:03 pm    Post subject:

^
And how did Kobe fare as opposed to his usual self?

He had a great game. But he wasn't an attacking scorer the way he has been almost all season

Kobe taking 18 shots WITHOUT Odom in the lineup? That's insane.

So are the fact that our guards had 15 TO's.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2006 12:06 pm    Post subject:

wolfpaclaker wrote:
^
And how did Kobe fare as opposed to his usual self?

He had a great game. But he wasn't an attacking scorer the way he has been almost all season

Kobe taking 18 shots WITHOUT Odom in the lineup? That's insane.

So are the fact that our guards had 15 TO's.


Quote:
Could we have used him, of course


Which is why I threw that in my post.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2006 12:13 pm    Post subject:

Shapecity wrote:
Car54 wrote:
DuncanIdaho wrote:
We arguably missed Odom more than Kobe during their injury stints last year. Of course he helps us out. The problem is, someone like Artest could have probably helped us out more.

We'll see.


If we could have gotten Ron without losing our best rebounder it would have helped. But to say he would have helped more i have to disagree. where he would have helped on defense & scoring we would have lost in rebs and as a pg of team. i dont know about yall but i dont trust mihm and kwame enough in the reb department.


We outrebounded the Bobcats last night without Odom. The statistics show the Lakers don't lose anything in the rebounding department when Odom is off the court.



You dont understand the game or you didnt watch it. Yes we had a lot of rebs it was only due to a high posession game. It was a fast pace game which lead to more points more rebs. the bob cats was also able to double kobe as soon as he made across half court with the ball. wirth odom in the game u cant do that.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2006 12:30 pm    Post subject:

Car54 wrote:
Shapecity wrote:
Car54 wrote:
DuncanIdaho wrote:
We arguably missed Odom more than Kobe during their injury stints last year. Of course he helps us out. The problem is, someone like Artest could have probably helped us out more.

We'll see.


If we could have gotten Ron without losing our best rebounder it would have helped. But to say he would have helped more i have to disagree. where he would have helped on defense & scoring we would have lost in rebs and as a pg of team. i dont know about yall but i dont trust mihm and kwame enough in the reb department.


We outrebounded the Bobcats last night without Odom. The statistics show the Lakers don't lose anything in the rebounding department when Odom is off the court.



You dont understand the game or you didnt watch it. Yes we had a lot of rebs it was only due to a high posession game. It was a fast pace game which lead to more points more rebs. the bob cats was also able to double kobe as soon as he made across half court with the ball. wirth odom in the game u cant do that.


It was a high possession game?

Combined shot total last night - 155

v. IND - 167
v. NYK - 154
v. DET - 164
v. GSW - 177
v. TOR - 164
v. PHX - 166
v. SAC - 181 *(note OT game)
v. MIA - 156
v. GSW - 176

Based on the Lakers past 10 games, the possession was relatively low. The season average for the Lakers is 160 combined shots per game.

Teams have been double teaming Kobe Bryant all season long, what games have you been watching?

Of course having Odom on the floor helps, but I was pointing out the Lakers can outrebound teams with or without him, and also get to the century mark with or without him. This has been statistically proven all season long based on the on/off court production of Lamar Odom.

The Lakers are obviously a better team with Lamar Odom. However, they aren't a worse rebounding team without him.
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wolfpaclaker
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2006 1:06 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
The Lakers are obviously a better team with Lamar Odom. However, they aren't a worse rebounding team without him

Disagree.

While you may correct that the Lakers can GET BY with Mihm and Kwame being aggressive on the boards - you are ignoring that having a starting SF that grabs as many rebounds makes the team stronger.

So you may be correct that if they keep up what they did last night (recall Kobe ussually doesn't get 9 boards - his averages is 5-6) they will not be hurt most by rebounding.

But with a lineup of two big's and Lamar at 3 - you can be one of the best rebounding teams in the NBA.

With Luke/George at 3 with two big's - you can still be a good rebounding team, but you won't be one of the best.

That's the point. Having that kind of advantage at 3 - is not there without Odom and forces either Kobe to step up or one of the other perimeter players.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2006 1:15 pm    Post subject:

wolfpaclaker wrote:
Quote:
The Lakers are obviously a better team with Lamar Odom. However, they aren't a worse rebounding team without him

Disagree.

While you may correct that the Lakers can GET BY with Mihm and Kwame being aggressive on the boards - you are ignoring that having a starting SF that grabs as many rebounds makes the team stronger.

So you may be correct that if they keep up what they did last night (recall Kobe ussually doesn't get 9 boards - his averages is 5-6) they will not be hurt most by rebounding.

But with a lineup of two big's and Lamar at 3 - you can be one of the best rebounding teams in the NBA.

With Luke/George at 3 with two big's - you can still be a good rebounding team, but you won't be one of the best.

That's the point. Having that kind of advantage at 3 - is not there without Odom and forces either Kobe to step up or one of the other perimeter players.


Paul Pierce would be just as good with 2 bigs and him at SF
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2006 1:18 pm    Post subject:

^ By losing Odom's rebounding it places more pressure on the rest of the players to step up in this department at the expense of other aspects of their games.

In the long run we certainly will suffer rebounding since it will take more out of the player to try and compensate and in the end we suffer as a result. It is also unlikely that the other players will be able to maintain the higher level of rebounding on a consistant basis as Odom brings to the team.

I frankly feel the lose of Odom's rebounding may have the most impact to our team negatively than anything else that we lose by not having Odom on the team in the long run.

Odom's ability to get the rebound and get down on the break and involve others is invaluable as a option in our offense, which is lost without Odom.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2006 1:35 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
Paul Pierce would be just as good with 2 bigs and him at SF

I like Pierce. I think if I were starting a franchise, I would take him over LO.

The concern I have with an Odom for Pierce swap

1- Playmaking/Running the point. Would Pierce accept that role?

2- Scoring spots. Pierce and Bryant like to score from very similar areas of the court.

If you can find me a good Tri PG to run the point, I would make that trade. As it stands with Smush at 1, I rather have LO.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2006 5:13 pm    Post subject:

wolfpaclaker wrote:
Quote:
Paul Pierce would be just as good with 2 bigs and him at SF

I like Pierce. I think if I were starting a franchise, I would take him over LO.

The concern I have with an Odom for Pierce swap

1- Playmaking/Running the point. Would Pierce accept that role?

2- Scoring spots. Pierce and Bryant like to score from very similar areas of the court.

If you can find me a good Tri PG to run the point, I would make that trade. As it stands with Smush at 1, I rather have LO.


Mike Bibby is that type of player. How about a LO for Bibby swap? Odom would play very well in a small market like Sactown. Plus, their line up would be pretty deep at the SF/PF, with Odom being able to play behind Shareef, in front of Bonzi and also be used as a point forward.

C-Miller
PF-Rahim
SF-Odom
SG-Artest
PG-Wells

Odom would probably have to bring the ball up instead of Wells, or Wells could come off the bench for whoever they have backing up Bibby now.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2006 7:35 pm    Post subject:

Yeah, you guys keep understimating LO's importance to this team. Am I saying that he's a perennial all star? nope, but you guys saying that he has no impact on the game don't have a clue. Another game without LO, another double digit loss. It's not a coincidence people.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 1:08 am    Post subject:

bounty wrote:
vanexelent wrote:


Rebounds can easily be compensated for and picked up by the collective team. Without Odom's average of 9 rebounds a game tonight, the team all stepped up grabbing some boards.

Kobe-9 rbs.
Mihm-9 rbs.
Walton-7 rbs.
George- 5 rbs
Brown-5 rbs.
Cook-4 rbs.

Using rebounds as a reason to keep Odom does not make sense. Odom is made out to be an initiator of the triangle, but again, Walton had 5 assists tonight, as did Kobe. So, initiators can be replaced as well. Odom creates mismatches for opposing SF. How so? His abnormal dribbling skills for his size is wasted when he doesn't shoot or just misses when he does.

I think Odom's absence shows how replacable his assests are and how in need of a scorer the team is. Trade him Mitch.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 1:17 am    Post subject:

shiznak wrote:
bounty wrote:
vanexelent wrote:


Rebounds can easily be compensated for and picked up by the collective team. Without Odom's average of 9 rebounds a game tonight, the team all stepped up grabbing some boards.

Kobe-9 rbs.
Mihm-9 rbs.
Walton-7 rbs.
George- 5 rbs
Brown-5 rbs.
Cook-4 rbs.

Using rebounds as a reason to keep Odom does not make sense. Odom is made out to be an initiator of the triangle, but again, Walton had 5 assists tonight, as did Kobe. So, initiators can be replaced as well. Odom creates mismatches for opposing SF. How so? His abnormal dribbling skills for his size is wasted when he doesn't shoot or just misses when he does.

I think Odom's absence shows how replacable his assests are and how in need of a scorer the team is. Trade him Mitch.



Could you possibly provide an argument against rebounding with less logic involved???

So Phoenix should trade Nash cuz his 11 assists will be replaced by the
teammates around him?

Orlando should ship off Dwight Howard cuz the rest of the Magic will just
pick up the slack and grab some extra boards?

Not putting Odom on par with those players overall.

But Odom is the 2nd-highest rebounding SF in the league behind Marion
(who actually has played mostly PF this year).

Magic rebounding elves don't sneak onto the court and replace any
rebounds a player doesn't provide just cuz the ball bounces after any
given shot.


I've always said LO isn't the answer as a 2nd-option.

I've also always said he might work out as a 3rd-option.

I'm not jockin' the guy...

...but to say you can lose a 9.5 reb/game player and that "the
rest of the team will just pick up the slack" is just flat-out clueless.
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