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nesli
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 3:19 pm    Post subject: lakers blog :kobe-mj

from la times lakers blog
Quote:
Let's see Kobe played/plays with Mihm, Odom, Butler, Atkins, Brown, George, Cook, etc. Jordan played with Pippen, Kukoc, Armstrong, Kerr, Purdue, Longly, Grant and on. Outside of Kukoc and Pippen, none of these other players were outstanding in their own right. Jordan found a way to make them all relevant in the offense while constantly improving his game. He was never surrounded by a group of great players. He had average players that played great together. Kobe seems to work the hardest on improving his game and leaving the others to try and follow suit. Not in my opinion the mark of leader.

Most everyone has worked, or works in some sort of team envirnment. You work with self-motivated people and slackers. It's what you do with the slackers while you're forced to work with them that marks you as either a leader, or self-centered employee. You can choose assist in their weaknesses and make them stronger, or let them fail while passing blame.

Until Kobe helps Odom and the others extract their strengths the Lakers will never be anything more than mediocre. It doesn't matter if they have the most prolific scorer we may ever see. Scoring isn't everything it's one facet of a team game.

So all you Kobe lovers can come to his rescue and wonder why he doesn't get the love of a Nash. The reality is you too would love to see the leader that can make every teammate better.

Now go ahead and bash this post.

Posted by: Chad | February 06, 2006 at 01:08 PM

chad ?? maybe chad ford
interesting view. what do you think about this?
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bounty
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 3:21 pm    Post subject: Re: lakers blog :kobe-mj

nesli wrote:
from la times lakers blog
Quote:
Let's see Kobe played/plays with Mihm, Odom, Butler, Atkins, Brown, George, Cook, etc. Jordan played with Pippen, Kukoc, Armstrong, Kerr, Purdue, Longly, Grant and on. Outside of Kukoc and Pippen, none of these other players were outstanding in their own right. Jordan found a way to make them all relevant in the offense while constantly improving his game. He was never surrounded by a group of great players. He had average players that played great together. Kobe seems to work the hardest on improving his game and leaving the others to try and follow suit. Not in my opinion the mark of leader.

Most everyone has worked, or works in some sort of team envirnment. You work with self-motivated people and slackers. It's what you do with the slackers while you're forced to work with them that marks you as either a leader, or self-centered employee. You can choose assist in their weaknesses and make them stronger, or let them fail while passing blame.

Until Kobe helps Odom and the others extract their strengths the Lakers will never be anything more than mediocre. It doesn't matter if they have the most prolific scorer we may ever see. Scoring isn't everything it's one facet of a team game.

So all you Kobe lovers can come to his rescue and wonder why he doesn't get the love of a Nash. The reality is you too would love to see the leader that can make every teammate better.

Now go ahead and bash this post.

Posted by: Chad | February 06, 2006 at 01:08 PM

chad ?? maybe chad ford
interesting view. what do you think about this?

Pipen was SOOOOOOOOOOO much better than anyone, and kukoc was such a better scoring option than anyone. So where maybe MJ only had those 2 guys they dwarfed ANYONE we have, Kukoc HAD TO BE GUARDED. I wont comment on PIP, we all know we dont have PIP
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sodapoppenski
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 3:23 pm    Post subject:

Umm it's not Chad Ford first of all

But it's just another leg of the ongoing MJ/Kobe comparison stuff.

There are reasons Kobe is actually better, as a couple of analysts have
mentioned he may be a better scorer than MJ ever was.

But overall I think MJ was the better player.

That said, Kobe's still got half his career in front of him.

To early to judge, yet everybody wants to put in their 2-cents
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madsen35
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 3:24 pm    Post subject:

Kobe is a significantly better player than Nash, but Kobe doesn't have the luxury of a defensive stopper like Marion. Marion is also very versatile on the offensive end, and while Odom is also versatile, he is not aggressive -- unlike Marion.

Give Kobe one more decent player who brings effort every night, and we'd be a much better team.
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sodapoppenski
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 3:25 pm    Post subject: Re: lakers blog :kobe-mj

bounty wrote:
nesli wrote:
from la times lakers blog
Quote:
Let's see Kobe played/plays with Mihm, Odom, Butler, Atkins, Brown, George, Cook, etc. Jordan played with Pippen, Kukoc, Armstrong, Kerr, Purdue, Longly, Grant and on. Outside of Kukoc and Pippen, none of these other players were outstanding in their own right. Jordan found a way to make them all relevant in the offense while constantly improving his game. He was never surrounded by a group of great players. He had average players that played great together. Kobe seems to work the hardest on improving his game and leaving the others to try and follow suit. Not in my opinion the mark of leader.

Most everyone has worked, or works in some sort of team envirnment. You work with self-motivated people and slackers. It's what you do with the slackers while you're forced to work with them that marks you as either a leader, or self-centered employee. You can choose assist in their weaknesses and make them stronger, or let them fail while passing blame.

Until Kobe helps Odom and the others extract their strengths the Lakers will never be anything more than mediocre. It doesn't matter if they have the most prolific scorer we may ever see. Scoring isn't everything it's one facet of a team game.

So all you Kobe lovers can come to his rescue and wonder why he doesn't get the love of a Nash. The reality is you too would love to see the leader that can make every teammate better.

Now go ahead and bash this post.

Posted by: Chad | February 06, 2006 at 01:08 PM

chad ?? maybe chad ford
interesting view. what do you think about this?

Pipen was SOOOOOOOOOOO much better than anyone, and kukoc was such a better scoring option than anyone. So where maybe MJ only had those 2 guys they dwarfed ANYONE we have, Kukoc HAD TO BE GUARDED. I wont comment on PIP, we all know we dont have PIP


And the guy left out Rodman, arguably the best rebounder in NBA history.

Jordan had the best perimeter-defender in the league with Pip, and the
best rebounder in the league with Rodman (I know, not in the early run).

Still, not a bad couple of guys. And placing Mihm or LO on the same
level as Pippen or Rodman is ludicrous.
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hoopschick29
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 3:26 pm    Post subject:

We've talked about this before.

Who is BJ Armstrong on this team?? John Paxson? Where is our Steve Kerr?? Who is Horace Grant?? Do we have a Kukoc??? That guy was a dead-eye shooter. Our first, second and third best shooter on this team from any distance is Kobe. And we certainly don't have a Rodman. Let Kobe get a guy on this team who's won 7 consecutive rebounding titles and would foul the crap outta somebody.

Were the guys on the Bulls' teams great?? Nope, but they're better than anything Kobe's working with now, and that's from Lamar Odom on down.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 3:33 pm    Post subject:

I love how they grouped Grant in with the others. Imagine if grant was the only one we had from that lot
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hoopschick29
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 3:37 pm    Post subject:

bounty wrote:
I love how they grouped Grant in with the others. Imagine if grant was the only one we had from that lot


Let's see...a guy who could defend, rebound, and make a 15 footer like a layup???

Maybe if we put Mihm, Kwame and Cookie in a blender, we may be able to spit out a guy like Horace Grant.
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msb212
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 3:42 pm    Post subject:

we are actually going to debate the merits of an anonymous post that is not even on LG?
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LucasWhite
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 4:01 pm    Post subject:

Cartwright, Paxson, Rodman, etc. The Bulls were stacked and they were the only team in the league that was outside of the Knicks. It's no wonder that Jordan won his championships in the 90s instead of the 80s. There was much more competition then. So, I ask, why did Jordan's teams fair so poorly in the 80s if he is so good at playing with a less than perfect supporting cast?
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KA_2
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 4:33 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
He was never surrounded by a group of great players.


And there goes his credibility.

No argument can be made that Pippen, Grant, and Rodman weren't great players.
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Walter Sobchak
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 4:35 pm    Post subject:

Grant was an all-star who left the Bulls as one of the biggest free agent signings of the year when he went to the Magic. This guy seems to only know Horace Grant from his tenure with the Lakers. Also, no mention of Dennis Rodman here? The guy was a multiple winner of the DPOY and had championship experience while regularly leading the league in rebounds before he came to the Bulls. But I guess it was Jordan who made him better?

Look, there is no disputing that Jordan did make a lot of mediocre players stand out in other people's minds. Ask yourself whatever happened to Jud Buechler or Randy Brown or Will Perdue or Bill Wennington or Luc Longley, etc, etc, etc, after they left the Bulls. But to say Jordan was as devoid of support as Kobe is now when the Bulls were winning championships is crazy.

I hate the Pippen=Odom comparisons. Hell, I hate the Marion=Odom comparisons, and Marion is nowhere near as good a player as Pippen was. Pippen was unquestionably one of the top 50 players of all time and was damn near the league MVP in 1994 the year that Jordan left to play baseball (by all rights he should have won that year). The guy was smart, athletic and he was undoubtedly one of the best defenders of all time. Lamar Odom has never been to an All-Star game. Where is the comparison?

Horace Grant was an all-star player who also was a second-team all NBA defender 4 times (twice with the Magic). Grant was also over 50% from the field for his career and was one of the best spot-up shooting power forwards in the game. Who on the Lakers is anywhere near that as a power forward? And Grant is arguably the worse of the two starting power forwards that Jordan won his 6 titles with because the other was arguably the greatest rebounding power forward in the history of the game and also unquestionably one of the league's best defenders for a decade. Do the Lakers have anyone like that?

I'll allow that Chris Mihm is arguably as good as any center that Jordan ever played with, but the difference there was that Jordan's championship Bulls teams were always deep at center. In the first three titles it was Cartwright, Perdue, Stacy King, etc... In the second three titles it was Longley, Wennington, James Edwards, John Salley, etc... The Lakers one real backup center is 18 years old.

At the point position Jordan didn't have any all-stars, but he had a lot of very good, and most importantly, very smart players who were almost all great outside shooters. He had BJ Armstrong, John Paxson, Ron Harper, Steve Kerr and Craig Hodges. The Lakers have Smush Parker and Sasha Vujajic, both of whom are lucky to be in the league at all.

Finally, as for Toni Kukoc (the only other player "Chad" gives any credit to as being "outstanding"), "Chad" needs to realize the Kukoc was coming off the bench for the Bulls. Who on the Lakers bench is that good? That's like saying that Cook or George are as good as Toni Kukoc was, even though Kukoc put up 18 points a game for a couple years there and was a starter for a number of teams after leaving the Bulls.

For people who want to compare Jordan when he had no talent around him to Kobe now, they need to look much earlier in Jordan's career when he really was all alone there. The results were pretty similar to what Kobe and the Lakers are doing now: huge numbers for the star but not a lot of wins. Kobe's giving his teammates a lot of opportunities to hit wide open shots, they're just not making them. "Chad" is crazy. Sure, Jordan had the same kind of players around him that Kobe does, but only if you don't count that Top 50 player, the DPOY, the All-Star and the 18 ppg scorer coming off the bench. Other than that though, it's just like the current Lakers :roll:
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 4:37 pm    Post subject:

stupid Chad.
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LucasWhite
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 4:51 pm    Post subject:

Excellent post, Walter. Grant was the talk of the league in 94-95 when he joined the Magic and put them over the top. He took them from a first round loser to the best team in the East. They beat Jordan's Bulls in 6 games. Can you imagine Chris Mihm doing that?

It was great to have Horace around to get another ring with us in his old age.

The year before, 1993-94, the buzz was that Pippen was the best player in the NBA. Can you imagine people talking about Lamar Odom like that?
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 5:30 pm    Post subject:

You know, even STEVE KERR said MJ had FAAARRR more talent around him than Kobe does with these Lakers. Let us not forget that MJ not only had one of the 50 greatest players to play the game beside him, he also had all-star caliber big man who were truly great defenders in Grant AND Rodman.

Honestly, who cares what these people say. In fact, it just goes to show you how elevated Kobe is right now, that people are actually resorting to comparing MJ's teammates to Kobe's, just to try to make MJ sound that much better than Kobe. That tells you that Kobe's game is right there and cannot be denied, thus, people are scouring the intangibles to come up with other reasons.

It's all a compliment and the more fans hate Kobe now, the more they'll love him for it later. Always works that way.
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