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thumpinghead Star Player
Joined: 17 Nov 2005 Posts: 5657
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Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 12:37 pm Post subject: Are the Laker's an Athletic enough team to compete in today's NBA? |
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To me, the problems we have seen this season is a direct result from a perspective from Kupchak and Jackson on the dynamic of today's NBA. Before the Shaq signing in 1996, the league had been moving to a fast paced style and Jerry West drafted quick players like Van Exel and Jones. Moreover, bigmen like Divac's had success with their rebounding, outlet passes and assists that led to quick offense and quick points. With the Laker's Shaq dynasty, Jackson's philosophy of "bigger is better then quicker" obviously worked, but what happened to the NBA's development during those seasons? Everyone got quicker and more athletic. Doctor Buss recognized this trend and attempted to make adjustments trading the older and slower Shaq for quicker and more athletic forwards. However the season did not do so as Buss would have liked. So the Laker's went back to Phil and his "bigger is better then quicker" philosophy. And I am asking Laker fans this? Is it working? Are the Laker's an Athletic enough team to compete in today's NBA? |
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postandpivot Retired Number
Joined: 16 Sep 2003 Posts: 36822
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Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 12:49 pm Post subject: Re: Are the Laker's an Athletic enough team to compete in today's NBA? |
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thumpinghead wrote: | To me, the problems we have seen this season is a direct result from a perspective from Kupchak and Jackson on the dynamic of today's NBA. Before the Shaq signing in 1996, the league had been moving to a fast paced style and Jerry West drafted quick players like Van Exel and Jones. Moreover, bigmen like Divac's had success with their rebounding, outlet passes and assists that led to quick offense and quick points. With the Laker's Shaq dynasty, Jackson's philosophy of "bigger is better then quicker" obviously worked, but what happened to the NBA's development during those seasons? Everyone got quicker and more athletic. Doctor Buss recognized this trend and attempted to make adjustments trading the older and slower Shaq for quicker and more athletic forwards. However the season did not do so as Buss would have liked. So the Laker's went back to Phil and his "bigger is better then quicker" philosophy. And I am asking Laker fans this? Is it working? Are the Laker's an Athletic enough team to compete in today's NBA? |
yes and know. its not the fact that we have a bunch of slow slugs on the team. the triangle offense minus super 50 greatest players of jordan and scottie, and a great role starter in horace. aint the same. kobe's great in it. but no one else on our team understands how to be themselves within the offense. therefore you have a guy like smush parker that actually can take people off the dribble, shooting mostly 3's. this is the problem scottie had in houston. all they wanted him to do was launch trey after trey. and he was rottin over there. because all the rest of his skills were being over looked. now i'm not saying phil jax is over looking smush's game. but I am saying smush is over looking his own game so he wont make a lot of mistakes. and doing so may not produce a ton of personal errors but its a team failure on more nights then we would like to see. same for LO.
So what can we do? Wait until the guys get the offense. they say it takes at least a year. so be patient. or, ship all these guys for guys that are great spot up shooters. now i will tell you this. if those guys are off that night, or other teams decide to say home. then what? most hired guns cant and wont up fake and dribble drive to the basket. they just dont have it in them. so there's dilemna #2.
So like i said, best bet is to wait and see.
the triangle is like the difference in playing for the old duke blue devils with g.hill and laetner, etc. Ghill was always a serious athlete, but you couldn't tell until that one moment when he caught that crazy lob during a big game. because the plays duke ran didn't have the need for ghill to show his athleticism. now does that mean, dukes play schemes are not great? no, it just means it will force the athletic guy to use his brain, instead of just running fast and juming high. even though this is great, its a downside to this at first. they atheletic guy will feel like he cant do anything he knows he can do. therefore he will either do a GP and buk the system, or do a GP and finally conform with a pouting attitude. and truly conform, and understand how to use his skills within the offense. this is what we're dealing with right now.
you put these same guys on phoenix and its a free for all. |
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LucasWhite Starting Rotation
Joined: 20 Feb 2005 Posts: 732
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Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 4:05 pm Post subject: |
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Well, I include things like coordination in my definition of athleticism besides the obvious so, from my perspective, the answer is "hell no". |
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Walter Sobchak Star Player
Joined: 14 May 2003 Posts: 4520 Location: Hollywood, Ca.
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Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 5:04 pm Post subject: |
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Don't blame Mitch and Phil too much for the Lakers slow road back to athleticism, a lot of it is just due to having Shaq on the team for all those years. A team with Shaq as the centerpiece did not need athleticism and the ability to "run and gun" since the Lakers back then had to play to their strength in Shaq and run methodical half-court sets. The Lakers have been retooling and are (hopefully) getting to where they're a much more athletic team, but you can't just swap out a team overnight. I'm still patient. _________________ "People don't think it be like it is, but it do." - Oscar Gamble
Just a reminder folks: "a lot" is two words. So is "no one". |
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ocho Retired Number
Joined: 24 May 2005 Posts: 53714
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Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 5:14 pm Post subject: |
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how do you figure we're not competing? we're in the playoffs as of today. _________________ 14-5-3-12 |
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Sage_10 Star Player
Joined: 24 Dec 2005 Posts: 6668
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Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 7:49 pm Post subject: |
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Unfortunately this team is mostly braun and no brains. They have to learn that offense and they also have to show more effort on the defensive end. |
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venturalakersfan Retired Number
Joined: 14 Apr 2001 Posts: 144432 Location: The Gold Coast
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Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 7:52 pm Post subject: |
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They are over .500 with alot of road games under their belts, so yes, they can compete. _________________ RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023. |
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PhillyDoc Star Player
Joined: 12 Nov 2004 Posts: 1034
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Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 7:55 pm Post subject: |
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Athletic "pure" ability is over-rated - among many truly great NBA stars that have seemingly overcome this in different areas are Nash, Duncan, Wallace (Ben) and Dirk. None can jump or run as fast as some lessor players but all are dominant players. Larry Bird was another historical example of a player who played manly below the basket, was quick but not blessed with inate super speed, but was dominant.
Kobe has incredible athleticsm as do Garnett, TMac, and AI but among the rest of the games superstars it is a mixed bag.
What is important IMO is having a decent mix of speed, power, height, "basketball intelligence", and most importantly desire to succeed as a team in the NBA.
Lakers have some athletics in Smush, Odom and Kobe and I believe on the bench in Bynum and just need to fill in the pieces with other talents. |
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Laker Lurker Star Player
Joined: 24 Oct 2002 Posts: 7652
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Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 8:02 pm Post subject: |
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Lakers are athletic enough to win. What teams are more athletic than the lakers? Spurs" denver" Suns without Amare? I don't think so? Lakers problem is lack of skill - inability to hit shots, box out, play team defense. The lakers need trainers, teachers, not docile coaches or more athlethism. Other than Kareem, who is teaching the lakers and building their skill sets? I doubt that PJ is doing anything in this direction based upon his comments, attitude and "let them figure it out for themselves" mindset.Lakers are like 1st graders trying to figure out calculus, finite differences. or group thoery without a teacher. |
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Charles Star Player
Joined: 22 Sep 2004 Posts: 4525
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Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 8:11 pm Post subject: |
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The Lakers have plenty of athleticism, in fact, the top-6 rotation is very athletic.
The Lakers are lacking in talent and intelligence, besides Kobe. |
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mike_kb Starting Rotation
Joined: 24 Jun 2005 Posts: 384
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Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 8:18 pm Post subject: |
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I think the better question is, are they athletic enough to execute on offense and able to deploy defensive scheme? I believe so. They could certainly improve with an infusion of talent, but that's for another topic. |
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stojan Star Player
Joined: 23 Jun 2005 Posts: 1405
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Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 9:04 pm Post subject: |
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philly doc i always thoguht ben wallace was one of the most athletic bigmen, im not sure but i seem to remeber hearing that, and it always seems evident with ben wallace getting alot of points of from putbacks and dunks.
however duncan i know for a fact is quite athletic but tends not to use it because he has an amzing inside game with short jumpers.
most dominent big men nowadays must have good athleticism and lakers have it in kwame and hell even mihm(for a white bloke), whats missing in their game is what garnett and duncan have solid fundamentals and a very high basketball iq. _________________ Jerome James being asked what he thought about his coach calling him selfish, his response was:
"I don't have the first clue who he is talking about, because all I worry about is Jerome." |
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AllorNothing Franchise Player
Joined: 08 Oct 2001 Posts: 18448
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Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 10:34 pm Post subject: |
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INsane. Duncan and Ben Wallace aren't athletic? |
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TEEGUNN Franchise Player
Joined: 12 Dec 2002 Posts: 18086 Location: rocky mountain high
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Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 11:41 pm Post subject: |
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I would put the Lakers in the bottom half of the NBA for athleticism. We do have Sasha and Luke on our squad (no, this has nothing to do with race).
But the game is much more than just being more athletic. One of the above posters said it well - most of the best true "athletes" are not in the top 40 players in the league, today and many of the greatest NBA players of all time were somewhat athletically challenged. Look at Bird and even Magic. Neither were great "athletes", but both are in the top 10 players of all time. Smush Parker is a much better "athlete" than either Magic or Bird. But Smush is practically clueless on how to implement his athleticism.
BBall IQ, effort, work ethic and desire are the most important aspects that make a player great. _________________ "Why do you think bad things happen, anyway???" "So we have something good to look forward to."
Jake Speed, 1986 |
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tgf5 Franchise Player
Joined: 18 Jun 2005 Posts: 11581 Location: Canada
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Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 12:08 am Post subject: |
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We have stiffs on our team but also some athletic guys. Unfortunately that doesn't help anything . |
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K8KillerInstinct Starting Rotation
Joined: 26 Jan 2006 Posts: 434
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Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 1:15 am Post subject: |
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Are they athletic enough to compete against WNBA teams? _________________ Be nice to Mitch and everyone in this planet. Never do evil or commit any act that might hurt others' feelings. We must all become environmentalists.
***Beware of Sarcasm*** |
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ocho Retired Number
Joined: 24 May 2005 Posts: 53714
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Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 1:17 am Post subject: |
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K8KillerInstinct wrote: | Are they athletic enough to compete against WNBA teams? |
ummm hello?? we have the wnba player of the year: kwame brown.
MEEEEOOWWWWWWWWWW _________________ 14-5-3-12 |
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eldrunko714 Starting Rotation
Joined: 31 Dec 2005 Posts: 223
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Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 1:18 am Post subject: |
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We are not athletic. If Indy which is not a very quick team, Phoenix, NOK, and Charlotte can run circles around us, we are not athletic. It's the truth. We have some guys who have some athleticism but to call us an athletic team is incorrect. We are a young team but not athletic. We have two guys who can't even jump two inches off the ground. Profit who is athletic but injured. Kobe is athletic and Von Wafer but Wafer doesn't even play. Smush is athletic but moves latterally like he has two left feet. Mihm is pretty decent for his size but not as active as one would like and Kwame is well Kwame. The rest of the guys are so so. We wanted an athletic team and that's what we were dubbed but that quickly changed once people found out the truth. |
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K8KillerInstinct Starting Rotation
Joined: 26 Jan 2006 Posts: 434
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Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 1:21 am Post subject: |
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da ocho wrote: | K8KillerInstinct wrote: | Are they athletic enough to compete against WNBA teams? |
ummm hello?? we have the wnba player of the year: kwame brown.
MEEEEOOWWWWWWWWWW |
_________________ Be nice to Mitch and everyone in this planet. Never do evil or commit any act that might hurt others' feelings. We must all become environmentalists.
***Beware of Sarcasm*** |
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-Yo- Star Player
Joined: 08 Jun 2002 Posts: 1320 Location: SoCal
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Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 2:10 am Post subject: |
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Oh horsepucky.
I'm tired of all this "need to learn the offense/triangle is too complex" bunk. Yes, the Triangle could be run with more sophistication, but so what?!
These guys are getting wide-open shots already and they can't hit them
Kwame can't make a lay-up.
How is greater knowledge of the triangle going to change that unpleasant fact.
Bottom line, Kupchack has, time and again, drafted, traded for, or otherwise acquired one player after another with a serious (and maybe fatal flaw). Like an eBay junkie--he buys into other teams' cast-offs without really carefully analysizing the goods.
And, as far as drafting goes, it is readily apparent that he doesn't know that a solid ball-player needs a variety of skills, AND must have self-discipline and competitive fire.
Instead we get seriously FLAWED players:
Sasha -- Can't shoot in real game.
Cook -- Not strong enough as PF, but no dribble-drive game that every SF needs. Odd shot that makes him streaky, at best (Remember Kareem Rush--I told you his shot was mechanically wrong.)
Vlade (2005)--On the verge of physical breakdown
Von Wafer--No discipline, no concept of team
Walton--The True Tweener. 20 years ago he might have been another Havlicek but the game has changed. Also he can't shoot (See Sasha flaw)
Brain Grant--Legs gone, no gas in tank
Medvedenko--No D. Actually probably better than we think, but the coaching staff has given up on him.
Kwame--no Brain, no offense, no lift--plays 3" shorter than his real height. Basically his only basketball "skill" is his body. Flaws? Too many to name.
Odom--Mentally soft, not "clutch", mediocre shooter, poor judgment. When he does something dumb he tends to make 2-3 more errors immediately. Too stupid to figure out a couple places on the floor where his shot is reliable. Lazy, doesn't give A s*** if we lose.
Curiously, we had a couple players on the squad with no serious flaws. JJ and Caron. They're both gone.
It almost seems like it is a pre-requisite of a Kupchak trade/draft player to have a serious, un-fixable flaw. |
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fansincemagic Franchise Player
Joined: 23 Jun 2005 Posts: 11048
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Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 7:31 am Post subject: |
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I like the thread. I agree that the Lakers are not athletic enough to compete with some teams, but even the most pessimistic Laker fan would agree that they are more atheletic than they could be. They are a year and a half removed from being one of the oldest teams, and I know that isn't saying much but they could be slower. Anyway, you'd think bringing in Odom, Brown, Sasha (yeah Sasha), and Smush would fix this problem, but they still lack a super athletes. |
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postandpivot Retired Number
Joined: 16 Sep 2003 Posts: 36822
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Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 11:34 am Post subject: |
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eldrunko714 wrote: | We are not athletic. If Indy which is not a very quick team, Phoenix, NOK, and Charlotte can run circles around us, we are not athletic. It's the truth. We have some guys who have some athleticism but to call us an athletic team is incorrect. We are a young team but not athletic. We have two guys who can't even jump two inches off the ground. Profit who is athletic but injured. Kobe is athletic and Von Wafer but Wafer doesn't even play. Smush is athletic but moves latterally like he has two left feet. Mihm is pretty decent for his size but not as active as one would like and Kwame is well Kwame. The rest of the guys are so so. We wanted an athletic team and that's what we were dubbed but that quickly changed once people found out the truth. |
Luke walton, and Sasha Vujacic. and maybe cook. even though he's been dunking as of late. Everyone else are athletes.
Chris mihm can actually jump higher then most centers. not named ben wallace(freak athlete). now the question is how fast can he reach that apex? not so fast. and perhaps this is where you think we're lacking. and i would agree. we still are missing that "quick off the ground" guy, like a big ben wallace.
Smush is very athletic for his height. and Von is more athletic then smush.
Devean Green is athletic, this is why he grabs boards like that in traffic full of bigmen. he doesn't box out well. he just jumps high. now he isn't the fastest/quickest guy. but he's decent in those categories.
Devean George- is still very athletic, this is how he grabs tough boards over opposing bigs, that have 3 inches on him. this is how he gets those occasional wild swinging blocks of his. and devean is somewhat quick, and he's fast. now how is devean's foot work? not so hot. but that aint athleticism.
kobe...
Bynum, i've heard the guy was more athletic then we are seeing at this point. so who knows.
Kwame brown, is a freak athlete. because he moves as quick as a cat, can jump with high jumping big men, and is fast as a small forward. and is extremely strong. now, does he have hands? no. does he think to quickly for his own good? sure. but he's very athletic.
let me explain something to you. we have athletes on this team. we have some guys that dont know how to put it together. so they can use their athletic abilities. we also have an offense that really doesn't take use of someone athletic ability. why? we dont throw back door lobs for the most part. miami, phoenix, denver, detroit, does. we dont really set iso plays for one guy to go one on one, then take off on a guy for a very athletic play. the manner in which the triangle is ran. its hard to show your athleticism in a half court set. the only time you knew scottie was a serious athlete was when he was on the break, and he would dunk on people like ewing. and while playing defense. but that takes more then just athleticism. you have to want to play defense. you also have to trust your other teammates. now if your teammates dont deserve your trust then theirs a problem.
now if you're wondering why cant we have a shawn marion, kenyon martin type of guy. well because those guys are not just athletes, but they can also play ball as well. that means they are going to cost a pretty penny. and you have to trade two guys to get them. why would you take luke walton and cook for martin? doesn' make sense. now does it. So we would have to give up LO, and Cook for martin, or LO, Cook, for marion. maybe LO straight up for marion. then we still need another LO type of guy to run the show. thats the dilemna.
while we were winning rings. these other teams were drafting and making trades to better their teams. its finally starting to payoff. the suns have been at this since barkley left. how long has that been? we could luck up on our on marion if we wait that long also. so do you want to wait that long? I dont. |
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Sister Golden Hair Franchise Player
Joined: 01 May 2001 Posts: 15872
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Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 1:54 pm Post subject: |
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I actually think that this team lacks high skill level as opposed to athleticism. Not a lot of great shooters. Few guys are truly ambidextrous. Not a lot of great ballhandlers (in fact, the best athletes apart from Kobe seem to be poor to average ballhandlers). The one athletic type this team doesn't have is a perimeter defensive demon, and even then, someone like Smush has the tools to be that. But as time passes, it seems he lacks the inclination.
This team has lacked a consistent perimeter shooter for YEARS. Think of how easier things would be if you had even a guy like Piatkoski at the receiving end of those Kobe kick-outs. As it stands, we have a Clank-choir out there. Ocassionally, Sasha and Cook can string together a few shots in a row, but they never seem to remain a consistent threat. That's a skill.
SGH |
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Sage_10 Star Player
Joined: 24 Dec 2005 Posts: 6668
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Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 5:03 pm Post subject: |
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Absolutely, this teams problem is mental. As soon as they can get their heads in the game they will start playing better. |
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