LakersGround.net :: View topic - Laker Report: Rough Patch

Laker Report: Rough Patch
Goto page Previous 1, 2, 3, 4

LakersGround.net Forum Index -> LA Lakers Lounge

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author

Message

Freakout
Franchise Player

Joined: 12 Apr 2001
Posts: 11796
Location: WV

Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 1:31 pm Post subject:

emplay wrote:

It all depends on Bynum - if he's the real deal it will be worth the wait. Fans can't understand the why the team isn't trying to get better to win today - when in truth they're maintaining flexibility once Bynum is ready.

Or . . . Bynum is just a good young kid and the Lakers are mortgaging the present for a future that may never be.

Time will tell on this one.

Or a mixture of the two.

Bynum's becomes a solid player just no superstar. Bad news is Kobe is suddenly 33 years old and is approaching the end. Kobe retires and we're stuck being patient yet again waiting to find his replacement. At this rate we may have 4 good years and 6 crappy ones.

DaggerInTheHeart
Star Player

Joined: 06 Feb 2006
Posts: 1459
Location: Sunshine State

Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 1:33 pm Post subject:

emplay wrote:

I will say that the progress I saw in Kwame as leveled off - more and more Mihm looks like the better big man despite his flaws.

Kwame has always been leveled off is it something new?

emplay
Site Staff

Joined: 15 Apr 2001
Posts: 25550

Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 1:36 pm Post subject:

kwame showed some improvement for a stretch - but has been dormat for a couple of weeks. I don't see anything new from lamobe at CL - link? _________________ Salary Cap Strategist and Columnist at Bleacher Report and on Twitter at http://www.twitter.com/EricPincus

DaggerInTheHeart
Star Player

Joined: 06 Feb 2006
Posts: 1459
Location: Sunshine State

Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 1:40 pm Post subject:

emplay wrote:

kwame showed some improvement for a stretch - but has been dormat for a couple of weeks.

In terms of defense yes rather then that no he hasn't showed us anything that he wasn't doing in his Washington days.

abc
Starting Rotation

Joined: 18 Jun 2005
Posts: 274

Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 1:42 pm Post subject:

emplay wrote:

I don't see anything new from lamobe at CL - link?

Eric -- lamobe's post went straight to the graveyard over at CL because, other than the short blurb about a titilating trade rumor, lamobe's post was another ridiculous jab at you.

Here's the link: http://www.clublakers.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1029634&highlight=#1029634
_________________
KB81: "The offense is like the Matrix to me. I'm like Neo; I can move it around however I want it to be."

Last edited by abc on Wed Feb 08, 2006 1:42 pm; edited 1 time in total

emplay
Site Staff

Joined: 15 Apr 2001
Posts: 25550

Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 1:42 pm Post subject:

he hasn't showed much offensive ability save 2-3 games - but if he can contribute defensively he could have a future with this team - unforutnately that's tailed off a bit. _________________ Salary Cap Strategist and Columnist at Bleacher Report and on Twitter at http://www.twitter.com/EricPincus

DaggerInTheHeart
Star Player

Joined: 06 Feb 2006
Posts: 1459
Location: Sunshine State

Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 1:49 pm Post subject:

emplay wrote:

he hasn't showed much offensive ability save 2-3 games - but if he can contribute defensively he could have a future with this team - unforutnately that's tailed off a bit.

He has not shown any offensive abilitys all season long the only time i remember seeing him have a game with offensive ability is the GS game.

fact is this guy has no future with this team and i will gladly trade him for some banana split.

And 1
Star Player

Joined: 12 Apr 2001
Posts: 2586

Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 1:52 pm Post subject:

DaggerInTheHeart wrote:

emplay wrote:

he hasn't showed much offensive ability save 2-3 games - but if he can contribute defensively he could have a future with this team - unforutnately that's tailed off a bit.

I don't know dude.

Farrell's might want you to kick in a 2nd rounder too.

LakerJam
Franchise Player

Joined: 02 Aug 2002
Posts: 18410
Location: Sherman Oaks, CA

Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 1:53 pm Post subject:

And 1 wrote:

LakerJam wrote:

emplay wrote:

Um - the Lakers don't have a point guard .

<snipped>

No point in letting yourself get trapped in a "hate Lamar Odom" debate. Those that hate him ignore his strengths and only point out his weakness.

Speaking of ignoring things...

In a thread yesterday, you chose to ignore several...how should I put it - weak points in Kwame Brown's game. The only thing you could hold you hat on to was "post defense."

Please square your thoughts yesterday with today's comments about strengths and weaknesses.

This team isn't very good. A couple of us noted this as far back as the pre-season, but was told DUDE, IT'S ONLY PRE-SEASON!! Then it became WAIT TIL MID-SEASON.

Can't you see where this is headed? Your eyes aren't lying to you.

You know that something significant must be done. And the sooner, the better.

I recognize the weaknesses in Kwame's game, And1. Point is that I value post defense more than I value offense. Yes, we need both to win but we can see - and have seen - that it's easier to find offensive minded guys than it is to find competent defenders. That's why we've lost tons of games where we've scored enough points, but couldn't stop anyone.

Do I think we need to make a move? Absolutely, BUT I don't want to make a boneheaded move just to make the playoffs, at the expense of having the cap space to sign a true star player. That's the rub. We Laker fans can't stand to lose - we're not used to it - so you have people here suggesting things that will help us win a few more games this season, but don't exactly make us serious challengers to SA or Detroit. Having Kobe Bryant on this team makes us just 1 player away from contending. I don't think winning more games to ensure the playoffs, is worth losing the cap space that would yield us that 2nd player who puts us in very real contention.

Teams don't exactly want to help the Lakers add another dominant player to Kobe Bryant. Thus, that cap space is crucial because players will choose to come here, even if teams won't trade them here. We need to take our heads out of the clouds with these dreams that our crap in trade is going to yield us a title. The reality is that the "Plan" is surest way to get where we want to go (contention), and we have to suffer through the struggles and youth on this team in the present until that time comes.

LakerJam
Franchise Player

Joined: 02 Aug 2002
Posts: 18410
Location: Sherman Oaks, CA

Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 2:04 pm Post subject:

Freakout wrote:

emplay wrote:

Except that the plan isn't contingent on Andrew Bynum. The plan is to add another star player when we have the cap space.

wolfpaclaker
Retired Number

Joined: 29 May 2002
Posts: 58344

Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 2:11 pm Post subject:

LakerJam wrote:

Freakout wrote:

emplay wrote:

Except that the plan isn't contingent on Andrew Bynum. The plan is to add another star player when we have the cap space.

This seems to fly by most.

Bryant will be 29 during the season of 2007-2008. If they can sign a quality FA in 2007, they will have a team that can position themselves in top rather than just hang around the Top 10.

07-08 Kobe 29
08-09 Kobe 30
09-10 Kobe 31
10-11 Kobe 32
11-12 Kobe 33

That's a solid 5 year window where I expect Kobe to be where is right now. In his peak.

After 2012, I can see Bryant not being a MVP type player. But is very unusual for a guy like Bryant - with his work ethic and elite athleticism - to be done by 33.

KG takes more of a beating and has been in the league longer, yet he's still a quality superstar at 30.

Shaq - his fat and lazy self - was a quality superstar until 32.

Micheal Jordan (closest comparison) was a MVP type player until 35.

And 1
Star Player

Joined: 12 Apr 2001
Posts: 2586

Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 2:30 pm Post subject:

LakerJam wrote:

And 1 wrote:

LakerJam wrote:

emplay wrote:

Um - the Lakers don't have a point guard .

<snipped>

No point in letting yourself get trapped in a "hate Lamar Odom" debate. Those that hate him ignore his strengths and only point out his weakness.

Fair enough. The thing that got me was:

Quote:

Those that hate him ignore his strengths and only point out his weakness.

I just found it ironic that I could replace the word "hate" with "jock" and flip-flop the order in which you used "strengths" and "weakness."

In essense, I think it could be argued, in this aspect, that you're just as committed to your viewpoint as others are theirs.

Moving on...

Quote:

Do I think we need to make a move? Absolutely, BUT I don't want to make a boneheaded move just to make the playoffs, at the expense of having the cap space to sign a true star player. That's the rub. We Laker fans can't stand to lose - we're not used to it - so you have people here suggesting things that will help us win a few more games this season, but don't exactly make us serious challengers to SA or Detroit. Having Kobe Bryant on this team makes us just 1 player away from contending. I don't think winning more games to ensure the playoffs, is worth losing the cap space that would yield us that 2nd player who puts us in very real contention.

Teams don't exactly want to help the Lakers add another dominant player to Kobe Bryant. Thus, that cap space is crucial because players will choose to come here, even if teams won't trade them here. We need to take our heads out of the clouds with these dreams that our crap in trade is going to yield us a title. The reality is that the "Plan" is surest way to get where we want to go (contention), and we have to suffer through the struggles and youth on this team in the present until that time comes.

I totally get this. I'm not so much as concerned about making the playoffs this year as opposed to making this team better.

For example...

I think that the Franchise is a helluva player who has at least 2 more years of "very good" play in him followed by 2-3 more of "good to solid" years. Not only do I believe that he could upgrade this team now (by providing a much needed 2nd scoring option and better defense than the incumbent), but could serve as the 2nd AS most championship contenders have on their roster. I believe that the only way to acquire such a player would be to involve Odom in such a deal.

But it'd be silly to believe that he wouldn't have an initial period where Francis (and consequently the team) struggled. If we missed out on the playoffs as a result, then I'm cool with that. It's kinda like starting a rookie QB in the NFL - there's a definite learning curve. So, I'm sure that you're wondering why I don't cut Lamar the same amount of slack.

The difference with Lamar is that this offense requires him to have a certain skillset (triple-threat) of which he hasn't shown consistency throughout his 6.5 seasons in the NBA. And if you think that all he needs is more time, you're simply lying to yourself.

What I, and some others, propose is accelerating the process of making this team better as opposed to "hoping" for certain things to go our way (i.e. Bynum becoming a super stud; max FA signing with us; and, Kobe fighting off wear and tear).

If you're not willing to gamble on your future I can understand that. But outside of Kobe fighting off the wear & tear, there's nothing else that can truly bank on.

So, why be in fear of taking on even more risk?

SLYONE4KB
Sixth Man

Joined: 24 Jun 2005
Posts: 55
Location: Retired in Mexico enjoying life and my Lakers

Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 3:01 pm Post subject:

Thanks Eric. Great read. Is Kwame's wrist still causing problems and if so is this the reason his is so anxious on the floor?

LakerJam
Franchise Player

Joined: 02 Aug 2002
Posts: 18410
Location: Sherman Oaks, CA

Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 4:05 pm Post subject:

And 1 wrote:

LakerJam wrote:

And 1 wrote:

LakerJam wrote:

emplay wrote:

Um - the Lakers don't have a point guard .

<snipped>

No point in letting yourself get trapped in a "hate Lamar Odom" debate. Those that hate him ignore his strengths and only point out his weakness.

Fair enough. The thing that got me was:

Quote:

Those that hate him ignore his strengths and only point out his weakness.

Quote:

I'm not risk averse at all. I’m foolish risk averse - BIG difference.

As for Odom and triple threat skills, he does bring that every night. He just doesn’t bring 20 ppg scoring, but rather anywhere from 10 - 18pts-ish. The inconsistency to assert himself understandably drives me nuts, but if you add a true 2nd option then Odom’s game perfectly compliments this team. His reluctance to be a true scorer is only glaring because we have no consistent guns outside of Kobe Bryant. That doesn’t mean Odom is the fault or that he must go, only that we don’t have all or the right pieces yet.

I also think this team is far more lethal having Kobe, Odom and a True Star (which is would happen if we stick to the plan), than it otherwise would be if we just had Kobe and that 2nd star. You want to replace Odom, I want to add true talent to the Kobe/Odom dynamic. Now, I would trade Odom if the playing coming back (not playerS) provided the strengths that Odom provides. Considering he’s the only player in the entire league to be averaging at least 14/9/5, it’s not as easy to replace as some would have you believe. Losing hurts and we tend to over-exaggerate a player’s weaknesses, just as we tend to exaggerate a player’s strengths when we’re winning.

As for Steve Francis - let’s not call him franchise anymore because he’s not that - I actually do think he’d be a good fit here. He’s a SG in a PG body, which is ideal for the triangle even though it’s horrible in any other system. He’s a bit too undersized for my liking and his defense is often tied to his offense, but that’s another issue. I do think Phil can control Francis and Kobe would command his respect enough to know he’s not the #1 dude here. Do I think he’s worth trading Odom for? Hell no! No one is offering up that kind of talent for Steve Francis, which makes a trade involving Odom foolish over-paying. Honestly, I probably wouldn’t trade for him regardless not because I have any issue with him - I don’t - but because Steve Francis is not the star player the Lakers (or I) are hoping for with the 2007 plan. His deal runs too long that if we traded for him, the plan would basically be to acquire Steve Francis - and I don’t view him as that piece I’ve been patiently waiting for. If we replaced Odom with Francis to preserve the plan, then were would the rebounding amongst the trees come from? We know Francis is a good rebounder for a guard, but he wouldn’t grab the key ones Odom often gets when the game is close and all the big guys are fighting for the rebound. Those things would hurt us.

I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree, because while I’m certainly open minded, I really am thinking of the big picture here, and that picture involves having Kobe, Odom, Max Caliber Player and Bynum as it’s core, with Ronny and Mihm off the bench. I’d take KG in place of Lamar, of course, but I don’t expect that deal to be offered anytime soon.

And 1
Star Player

Joined: 12 Apr 2001
Posts: 2586

Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 4:46 pm Post subject:

LakerJam wrote:

And 1 wrote:

LakerJam wrote:

And 1 wrote:

LakerJam wrote:

emplay wrote:

Um - the Lakers don't have a point guard .

<snipped>

No point in letting yourself get trapped in a "hate Lamar Odom" debate. Those that hate him ignore his strengths and only point out his weakness.

Fair enough. The thing that got me was:

Quote:

Those that hate him ignore his strengths and only point out his weakness.

Quote:

<snipped>

I also think this team is far more lethal having Kobe, Odom and a True Star (which is would happen if we stick to the plan), than it otherwise would be if we just had Kobe and that 2nd star.

OK, not to get into too much of a back and forth, but...

It seems as though you acknowledge that Odom is more of a role player than a "true star." If that's the case, are you saying that it's harder to find role-players as opposed to stars like Francis?

Quote:

You want to replace Odom, I want to add true talent to the Kobe/Odom dynamic. Now, I would trade Odom if the playing coming back (not playerS) provided the strengths that Odom provides. Considering he’s the only player in the entire league to be averaging at least 14/9/5, it’s not as easy to replace as some would have you believe. Losing hurts and we tend to over-exaggerate a player’s weaknesses, just as we tend to exaggerate a player’s strengths when we’re winning

You mentioned that Lamar gives you 14/9/5. Well, Francis has shown the ability to give you 20/6/6. I know that isn't the case this year where he's certainly had problems, but his history suggests that he scores alot more points and contributes more assists - at the cost of 3 rebounds. Numbers-wise, I think that's a reasonable trade-off. I also believe that Francis is a better defender at the point than Lamar is at either SF or PF. If you want to point to "intangibles" (whether good or bad) both players have their pros and cons.

Quote:

Do I think he’s worth trading Odom for? Hell no! No one is offering up that kind of talent for Steve Francis, which makes a trade involving Odom foolish over-paying.

This is an issue I have with several Laker fans - not just you. As with most fans, there seems to be an overvaluation (if there's such a word) of the player's on the teams they root for. There was a post last week where someone indicated that they wouldn't trade any player on this roster. The thought being that, over time, the likes of Smush, Sasha, and Luke Walton would develop into championship mettle. And I needn't bring up the Andrew Bynum will be better than Tim Duncan thread that came out after the draft.

Even two weeks ago, you weren't interested in a Bosh/Rose deal because we'd give up our "vaunted" front line of Odom and Kwame. Do you still believe that?

Quote:

Honestly, I probably wouldn’t trade for him regardless not because I have any issue with him - I don’t - but because Steve Francis is not the star player the Lakers (or I) are hoping for with the 2007 plan. His deal runs too long that if we traded for him, the plan would basically be to acquire Steve Francis - and I don’t view him as that piece I’ve been patiently waiting for. If we replaced Odom with Francis to preserve the plan, then were would the rebounding amongst the trees come from? We know Francis is a good rebounder for a guard, but he wouldn’t grab the key ones Odom often gets when the game is close and all the big guys are fighting for the rebound. Those things would hurt us.

Well wait a second. I thought you weren't interested in the "quick fix."

I will grant you that losing out on Odom's rebounds is a cause for concern. But this is an area than can be addressed with a role player. I mean, if Turiaf shows any proficiency this year, I can easily envision him as providing 4-5 boards off the bench. My proposed deal would bring us the rights to Fran Vasquez in addition to Francis. I can hear you now: BFD!

Well, suffice to say, a player like Vasquez could always be used in a package to secure better rebounding talent - something "role players" can do.

brock
Star Player

Joined: 16 Jun 2005
Posts: 2052

Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 12:56 am Post subject:

Wondering how many of you would be interested in acquiring Gerald Wallace?

DaggerInTheHeart
Star Player

Joined: 06 Feb 2006
Posts: 1459
Location: Sunshine State

Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 1:05 am Post subject:

I would be interested but depends who we give up.

critical_beatdown
Star Player

Joined: 01 Jan 2006
Posts: 2072

Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 1:10 am Post subject:

Wallace is great, but the perfect deal matched to our needs right now is Knight/Ely. An elite 1 and a solid post scoring 4 who can double up at the 5.

Display posts from previous:

LakersGround.net Forum Index -> LA Lakers Lounge

All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Goto page Previous 1, 2, 3, 4

Page 4 of 4

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

LakersGround is an unofficial news source serving the fan community since 1995.

We are in no way associated with the Los Angeles Lakers or the National Basketball Association.