ot vlad rad for wilcox done
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LakerJam
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2006 4:58 pm    Post subject:

shnjb wrote:
Alright.
We all love the Lakers and all but let's get this "appreciate ownership for all that it's done for us" type of talk.

This ownership, much like any other ownership, has earned a lot of money while bringing "all that" for us.

I'd gladly bring so much too if I was making money on it.

I like Dr. Buss and he's certainly one of the better sports owners out there but to have loyalty to an ownership is just a bit overdone.


Sterling has made a lot of money, too, but I don't' see him spending it on ensuring he puts championships in the rafters.

There's a huge difference there and if you don't recognize how key ownership is to the success of any franchise, then you shouldn't participate in this part of the discussion. It's ALWAYS ownership that ensure winning, because they're the ones with final say, final check books, final commitments to get there.

So, yes, ownership is a huge key here, even if you'd like to minimize it so you can bash freely.
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LakerJam
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2006 5:00 pm    Post subject:

statman wrote:
LakerJam wrote:

The Clippers make themselves worse by trading Wilcox for Radmanovic, and we respond by trashing all things Lakers.


Wow, you must not watch the Clippers at all (and I shouldn't expect it, this being a Laker board) to think that they got worse with this trade. Wilcox wasn't giving the team anything, and the biggest problem was outside shooting at the SF.


It's not that the outside shooting won't help them, it's that they're very thin up front. They needed Wilcox to relieve at PF and C. Rebraca is coming off of heart surgery and is not someone they can really count on.

That's why I say the Clippers hurt themselves. Wilcox is a horrible defender and very streaky, so I do agree with you, BUT he did give them depth and ocassional spark.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2006 5:05 pm    Post subject:

LakerJam wrote:
shnjb wrote:
Alright.
We all love the Lakers and all but let's get this "appreciate ownership for all that it's done for us" type of talk.

This ownership, much like any other ownership, has earned a lot of money while bringing "all that" for us.

I'd gladly bring so much too if I was making money on it.

I like Dr. Buss and he's certainly one of the better sports owners out there but to have loyalty to an ownership is just a bit overdone.


Sterling has made a lot of money, too, but I don't' see him spending it on ensuring he puts championships in the rafters.

There's a huge difference there and if you don't recognize how key ownership is to the success of any franchise, then you shouldn't participate in this part of the discussion. It's ALWAYS ownership that ensure winning, because they're the ones with final say, final check books, final commitments to get there.

So, yes, ownership is a huge key here, even if you'd like to minimize it so you can bash freely.


I agree with you that ownership is a big part of it.
But ownerships come and go while the team will always stay as Lakers.
When you start talking about how much the ownership has brought to this city, that's where I don't agree.
The ownership has brought a lot to us Laker fans, not the city.
And the city of Los Angeles, along with the LAker fans, more than makes up for what the Lakers have done for us with one of the largest market that we bring.

We are all here because we're huge fans of the Lakers, but I just don't think there is any need for us to "thank" them.
They provide entertainment; nothing more serious or less seriuos although it's entertainment a lot of us cannot live without.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2006 5:09 pm    Post subject:

LakerJam wrote:

It's not that the outside shooting won't help them, it's that they're very thin up front. They needed Wilcox to relieve at PF and C. Rebraca is coming off of heart surgery and is not someone they can really count on.


With Maggette out, they have been much thinner at SF. Basically it's been Q. Ross getting heavy minutes (who is more of an SG build), or weird rotations with Mobley or Livingston out of position at SF. Rad is a true SF who was playing PF out of position in Seattle. This is a great swap for both teams.

Wilcox hasn't even been Brand's first sub; usually Singleton has been coming in at PF (he has the same athleticism as Wilcox with better rebounding and shooting, less "upside"). Wilcox had a lot of DNPs because he wasn't doing anything in the minutes he did get. He is no better defending centers than Rad is-- both equally worthless.

The only reason this would be a bad trade for the Clippers is if they planned on resigning or sign-and-trading Wilcox in the offseason, since they'll almost certainly lose Rad for nothing. The consensus is that they were just going to let Wilcox go (since a lot of teams would overpay him), so I think it's a good one-season move. Time will tell.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2006 5:20 pm    Post subject:

Since he accepted the QO and was traded the Clips do not receive his Bird rights. Additionally, Vlad had to sign off on the deal. Easy, Seattle wasn't going to resign him and now he gets playoff show.

The Clips should have around $9 million in space next year but would like to resign Cassell and know Kaman will cost good $ in '07. It would seem unlikely the Clips intend to keep Radman or offer him more than MLE $. Radman is now officially on the open market.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2006 5:35 pm    Post subject:

Freakout wrote:
LakerJam wrote:
Freakout wrote:
wolfpaclaker wrote:
Quote:
BINGO.

Truth is had last years team not been plagued by injuries it would have been scary similiar to this years team. Difference is we had more talent last year. Where is the progress?

Where's the progress?

1- We have more athleticism
2- We have more size
3- We have improved young players like Chris Mihm
4- We have added a young true Center that is impressing in Bynum
5- We have added a young guard in Smush Parker that has shown ability to step in and be a scorer on this team.

At worst - we have atleast 4 players you'd want to keep. Odom, Bynum, Mihm and Parker.

The problem? Even the league knows that those 4 are what's valuable. So they will ask for them. That's when you have to weigh in on what's good for the team ...

Which is exactly what the Lakers are doing.

They will make a trade if they think it's worth it. If they feel that they are better off looking at the summer and next season - then they will not make that trade.

But they definitely will look to upgrade. It's preposterous to think that they aren't exhausting all areas.


Only addition worth a damn is Bynum and he's a rookie.

Parker is Chucky 2.0. At best he's a backup.

Kwame Brown or Caron?

We had Mihm last season.

I hardly call that progress. At that rate we may sniff the finals in 15 years.


Really, that wasn’t Kwame superbly defending Shaq, or Tim Duncan or Yao Ming? Caron Butler would have done a better job of that? Or is it just his offensive numbers that impress you?

As for having Mihm last year, that’s true. We also had Kobe Bryant. Does that mean Kobe is crap, too?

Finals in 15 years? Hey, at least now we know where you stand as far as appreciating ownership and all they’ve brought to this city. Glad to know that all it takes is the 2nd year of a rebuild and this is your attitude and that of many fans.

Wow. I seriously had no idea how many fair weather bandwagoner fans the Lakers had. It’s actually very sad and this ownership doesn’t deserve it.


Kwame defended Shaq very well. He also layed a huge egg against Dallas. I see you focus on the 5 good games he's had this year instead of the 40 some bad ones. Of course Caron couldn't have guarded Shaq. For some reason I can't see any where that I actually said he could. That doesn't stop us from moving Caron for someone better than Kwame Brown OR just keeping him and get a veteran big with the MLE we wasted on Mckie.

I never called Mihm crap. You seem to love adding words. Still that doesn't equal progress.

You really don't want to start your junk with me about ownership. I respect everything Buss has done for this organization. However, I'll always feel the Mr. West was the main factor in our recent success. It's not suprising he got a horrible team like Memphis to be a playoff team so fast and thats without having the best player in the league on his team. I know if he was still here we would not be the .500 club that we are now. Unfortunately we're are stuck with Mitch.

And don't ever call me a (bleep) fairweather fan.


I’m not trying to insult you, but the comments for fairwhether fans was quite generic to the board. It was aimed towards the fans who cry during the 2nd year of a rebuild, that the team is dead for the next 15 yrs. because it’s year 2 and we’re still not great. If that’s not a bandwagoner, then we have very different definitions of what a bandwagoner consists of. To ME, a fan who can’t give his or her franchise that has always been committed to winning, more than a season and half before trashing it, then that’s exactly what that fan reduces him or herself to. In any event, this is a Laker discussion and I’m addressing some of your points, and also adding some of my own to the general tone of this thread. That’s what we do here. Now if you choose to take all credit from the Buss family and just give it to Jerry West, that’s your prerogative, but I think that sucks. Clearly, Buss wants to win badly because he’s always focused on doing whatever that takes - and smartly.

As for Kwame, it’s not his offense or his “5 games” I focus on. It’s the fact that he IS an excellent post man defender and has been consistent in that aspect of his game. He’s our best big man defender and that’s something I greatly value. You prefer Caron’s good offense but shoddy defense to Kwame’s good defense and shoddy offense. I disagree with you BIG TIME. As far as I’m concerned, it’s easier to find guys willing to score, than it is to find a strong, athletic guy who will focus on defense regardless of what his offense is doing. I’m pleased with that because when the season first started, Kwame wouldn’t get back on defense when he struggled offensively. Since that time, though, he gives his defensive effort every game - and that’s something I appreciate.

Regarding Chris Mihm, I actually did think you were implying he was crap. Going back and re-reading your initial comment in light of your obvious defensiveness, I realize you meant he wasn’t an addition, not that he was crap - my bad. Still, he IS improved, and that means we have improvement as to that position, too. Or does improvement only matter when it comes from a new guy? Sometimes, you make your team better just by upgrading the coaching staff, and how that impacts players counts, too.

Where I do agree with you is in the use of the MLEs. Although I'll say that everyone thought the Vlade signing was a good signing (he'd only missed a few games in years of playing) to help us get through the transition. IN hindsight, it's easy to bash the decision, but that's not really fair because Vlade had been very reliable up to that point (kinda like Malone getting hurt the moment he arrives here). Still, Mckie was a bad move, but who could we have gotten? Swift? He's been horrible for the Rockets. Derek Anderson? Please. Who who is so great that we passed up, exactly, that so warrants venom?

The reality is that as frustrating as this young team is - and believe me, I understand that - it IS improved significantly over last season’s team. We have far more athletes, better defenders, a far better coach and coaching staff, improvement from most of the players we had last season, and Kobe himself is on an entirely other level. Thus, if you’re being honest - how the heck can you sit there and say nothing is better except for Bynum?


Last edited by LakerJam on Tue Feb 14, 2006 5:38 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2006 5:37 pm    Post subject:

wolfpaclaker wrote:
Quote:
Wow. I seriously had no idea how many fair weather bandwagoner fans the Lakers had. It’s actually very sad and this ownership doesn’t deserve it.



Cosign.

I don't understand people sometimes. We're in a rebuilding stage. Anyone who thinks Smush and Chucky are about the same needs to go get their eyes checked. Smush plays better D, gets steals, can finish and brings some fire to the team. He's aggressive and he's confident. Chucky was none of these things. Atkins looked like he was gonna cry all the time. How many times have I seen Smush take pressure off Kobe by driving to the hoop. How many times have I seen Smush keep it close when Kobe's getting a few minutes rest on the bench. Chucky can hit the open 3 and we're missing that a little bit, but come on. There's no comparison.

Also, people on this board are undervaluing Lamar Odom. Odom isn't going out for Channing Frye or Danny Granger. Odom can net bigger fish. GMs around the league love the guy. Everyone thinks that Odom is a 17/10/6 under their system and guidance. Not sure if that's true, but his value is high. If Odom is moved, it will be to make us a contender. He's going nowhere before that.

Sure, the Shaq trade sucked. Sure the Kwame trade hurts now that BDiddy and Artest wee available for manybe the same bait, but don't think things aren't happeneing behind the scenes. You don't get to be GM of the Lakers by being an idiot. Give this team some time and have some damn faith.
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LakerJam
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2006 5:47 pm    Post subject:

shnjb wrote:
LakerJam wrote:
shnjb wrote:
Alright.
We all love the Lakers and all but let's get this "appreciate ownership for all that it's done for us" type of talk.

This ownership, much like any other ownership, has earned a lot of money while bringing "all that" for us.

I'd gladly bring so much too if I was making money on it.

I like Dr. Buss and he's certainly one of the better sports owners out there but to have loyalty to an ownership is just a bit overdone.


Sterling has made a lot of money, too, but I don't' see him spending it on ensuring he puts championships in the rafters.

There's a huge difference there and if you don't recognize how key ownership is to the success of any franchise, then you shouldn't participate in this part of the discussion. It's ALWAYS ownership that ensure winning, because they're the ones with final say, final check books, final commitments to get there.

So, yes, ownership is a huge key here, even if you'd like to minimize it so you can bash freely.


I agree with you that ownership is a big part of it.
But ownerships come and go while the team will always stay as Lakers.
When you start talking about how much the ownership has brought to this city, that's where I don't agree.
The ownership has brought a lot to us Laker fans, not the city.
And the city of Los Angeles, along with the LAker fans, more than makes up for what the Lakers have done for us with one of the largest market that we bring.

We are all here because we're huge fans of the Lakers, but I just don't think there is any need for us to "thank" them.
They provide entertainment; nothing more serious or less seriuos although it's entertainment a lot of us cannot live without.


When the Lakers succeed, the city does benefit. People get jobs. Businesses make money. The city PROFITs ...A LOT. The Olympics are entertainment, too - lots of things are - but when you have a big draw, it makes any city, and that city's citizens, lots of money. But the Lakers aren't just about the money. They've always been about winning, too, and winning makes fans very happy. So when you have an owner that cares enough to always aspire to win, then that does or should yield appreciation and gratitude... and a little patience to get back to the top before turning on them.

Think about it. Buss could be like other owners and just collect money while spending the bare minimum required. Sterling made a FORTUNE doing just that - paying out the minimum and then collecting revenues from other teams, because the Clippers were always mired in crap. Yet you don't think there's anything to be thankful for that Buss has always been committed to winning? You think there's no difference between Jerry Buss and Donald Sterling, whose raked in millions upon millions over the decades and never given a crap about giving the fans something to cheer about until now? Buss now equates to the owner of the Raptors or the Hawks, too, in terms of how fans should or shouldn't appreciate him?

I don't really believe you think that, or that you don't believe fans should be grateful for the good fortune that it's Dr. Buss who owns the Lakers, and not some chump named Sterling.
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