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Ank
Star Player
Joined: 17 May 2005
Posts: 1043
Location: New York, NY
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 Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 4:01 pm Post subject: |
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| And 1 wrote: | | Ank wrote: | | Look/ Commenting is all fine. The question now is what do we do about it. Where do we go from here. People who predicted doomsday early on weren't right, but there are a lot of weaknesses on this team and we need to talk about them if we are gonna improve them. I do agree that this board is a little harsh when we talk about our problems. We need to understand where we need to improve. |
As far as I can recall, most realists didn't predict "doomsday." This term was attributed to many of us who refused to wear the P&G-colored glasses. I recall that valid concerns were raised (as was outlined in the first post), and corrective measures proposed.
As for saying that many of us weren't right, in terms of making determinations from watching pre-season games, you'll have to explain that. I've already provided three major observations from the pre-season that still appear to be major problems.
Where do we go from here?
Hard to say. I've been labeled as being overly critical on this board (whether it be against Odom, Mihm, or Kwame). But I'm unsure if the one person, who I'd like to criticize the most (Kupchak), can even be held accountable for anything more than the poor use of the MLE.
That's because I've no idea who is running the Laker ship right now. |
Reread what I said. I niether said that most people predicted doomsday, nor that realists predicted doomsday nor that many of early predictors were wrong.
I said, "the people who predicted doomsday were wrong." I think that statement stands by itself is clearly correct. I did not imply that you were one of the doomsday predictors.
In fact, I meant my post to agree with a lot of what you said. I think we should open a dialogue about what is wrong with this team so we can fix it. I don't really see how you interpreted my post differently. I agree that people asking desenters to wait longer and longer into the season before vociing concerns is idiotic. Whatever. Don't fight battles where there aren't any. |
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And 1
Star Player
Joined: 12 Apr 2001
Posts: 2586
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| Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 4:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Ank wrote: | | And 1 wrote: | | Ank wrote: | | Look/ Commenting is all fine. The question now is what do we do about it. Where do we go from here. People who predicted doomsday early on weren't right, but there are a lot of weaknesses on this team and we need to talk about them if we are gonna improve them. I do agree that this board is a little harsh when we talk about our problems. We need to understand where we need to improve. |
As far as I can recall, most realists didn't predict "doomsday." This term was attributed to many of us who refused to wear the P&G-colored glasses. I recall that valid concerns were raised (as was outlined in the first post), and corrective measures proposed.
As for saying that many of us weren't right, in terms of making determinations from watching pre-season games, you'll have to explain that. I've already provided three major observations from the pre-season that still appear to be major problems.
Where do we go from here?
Hard to say. I've been labeled as being overly critical on this board (whether it be against Odom, Mihm, or Kwame). But I'm unsure if the one person, who I'd like to criticize the most (Kupchak), can even be held accountable for anything more than the poor use of the MLE.
That's because I've no idea who is running the Laker ship right now. |
Reread what I said. I niether said that most people predicted doomsday, nor that realists predicted doomsday nor that many of early predictors were wrong.
I said, "the people who predicted doomsday were wrong." I think that statement stands by itself is clearly correct. I did not imply that you were one of the doomsday predictors.
In fact, I meant my post to agree with a lot of what you said. I think we should open a dialogue about what is wrong with this team so we can fix it. I don't really see how you interpreted my post differently. I agree that people asking desenters to wait longer and longer into the season before vociing concerns is idiotic. Whatever. Don't fight battles where there aren't any. |
I've re-read your post and understand what you were trying to get across. I did misinterpret it. It happens. But just the same, I'm unsure of anyone (be it realist or outright hater) who predicted "doomsday." BTW, could you define "doomsday?" If doomsday means missing out on the playoffs, we're still in "doomday's" range. |
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postandpivot
Retired Number
Joined: 16 Sep 2003
Posts: 36822
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| Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 4:50 pm Post subject: Re: Well. We're At The All-Star Break. Is It Fair To Comment Now? |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | And 1 wrote: |
And where do you stand on this team? Is it any different from the pre-season?
Do any of you care to revise your projections in terms of W & L's?
Do you like Phil jackson as your coach?
It's the All-Star break. Care to comment? |
I pretty much stand now where I did when the season started. I think the Lakers can win 18 more games this season, which would put them at 44. I originally thought they would win between 42-45. All of that is based on good health, of course.
I think Phil is doing a good job, no surprise there.
I think the team will make the playoffs, as well.
I will be disappointed if the ending contracts, besides DG, aren't used to help the roster. It doesn't have to be a home run, just bring in a role player or two who can help defensively. DG is bringing real value to the team, so it would take a better player to improve on his roster spot. |
Name 1 or 2 role players, that can help defensively and also run the triangle on offense without bumping into to people?
I'm serious. if you can give me 2 names you know, that we could get(literally). let me know. cause as of now, i dont see anyone coming. unless we do something blockbuster. maybe i'm wrong.
people say banks still. but banks still isn't the type of guy to run a triangle offense. and truth be told. no matter what position you play on the perimeter, you will have to set the tri a few times a night. thats just how it goes. do i think marcus can do this Today? Nope. can marcus shoot the 3? not with the consistency we need. can marcus stop guys from picking him off? NOPE. so what would happen? he would get mis used and abused just like smush/vujacic because it takes a team of defenders on the same page with the same will to play defense to stop the pick and whatever. it aint just 1 or 2 guys. its all 5 need to be on the same page. otherwise a hardnose defender would be for not. and would be wasting his time here.
unless you could give me mike james. who can play some defense, and hit the 3 and penetrate and actually try a layup unlike my boy sasha. but we cant get mike without giving up something of quality, like a big. as if we dont need every piece of big we have. look, whats trade bait, that we can afford to lose just to fill in a role right now? Luke walton, and Sasha Vujacic(no body wants sasha that bad). Cook is obviously our shooter, even though smush looks like he cant keep up with anyone. thats all because of the picks that he has to deal with. and the guy still hits a decent percentage of 3's. cant fight that at all. and he has the ability to get to the whole. so even if we found a better starting pg, i still want smush around.
But what we need, is athletic movers and shakers(like atlanta). but not like atlanta. because those guys would look horrible trying to run the triangle. they look good against us playing bad defense and not understanding that these guys play to miss, not to make shots. thats why they outrebounded us last night. and this is the toughest thing when you use the tri as your primary set. We need guys that can catch on quickly, hit open 3's, make very good decisions, and play solid defense. where in the world are we going to find these type of guys? without having to send everyone except for kobe. once we do that. we will still be missing the same amount of players that we need. this is the dilemna that we're in right now.
So we are more or less banking on some of these guys turning into something by next year. yes, NOT this year. but next year. if not, we can do the ship em move and try another group of guys out for 1 year and a summer. unless some rookie comes along and saves the day. i dont see us getting anyone. |
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sodapoppenski
Star Player
Joined: 24 Apr 2005
Posts: 7364
Location: Washington, DC
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| Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 4:58 pm Post subject: Re: Well. We're At The All-Star Break. Is It Fair To Comment Now? |
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| Just_Looking wrote: | | raffi wrote: |
Nice post. Those of us with "vision" are the clear minority on this board, but it doesn't make us wrong or any less loyal - just realistic.
The facts keep resonating loud and clear - not that it makes me feel any better. I'd love to be wrong, but that's not likely. |
I am curious. Why do you call it "vision" when someone complains and pisses and moans and throws out a constant barrage of trade demands to address every single problem that occurs in every single individual game? Yet when someone suggests patience and taking the time to see which of our young players develops so we KNOW what our long term needs are, you call it being a "homer".
The NBA is litered with the corpses of teams that took the short term approach you all suggest. Look at the Knicks ... they are the epitome of a team run with no true "vision" but rather a short sighted "do it now?" approach that so many fans advocate in this forum. Had we done what the fans demanded this off-season, we would be a team peopled by the likes of Anderson, Hunter, Jerome James, Ely, etc etc and would not only be in last place but we'd be locked out of any cap flexibility until 2012.
We may not go far this season but we WILL know exactly what we need. And right now it is apparent that Smush and Sasha are NOT the backcourt of the future while Mihm and Bynum have progressed better than we had hoped. Your "vision" is nothing more than the ability to look at a single game and see what caused a specific loss. That's not "vision". That is shortsightedness that has, thankfully, never plagued this franchise and, hopefully, never will. |
Amen.
To many people on here have NBA 2k6 on the brian.
They want to pull the trigger for any trade possibility that comes by.
Making the RIGHT decisions for a team takes patience, being SELECTIVE
about which star you make a big move for, and when that player is
available, it even involves a little luck in happening to have the right
pieces to offer. |
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Sister Golden Hair
Franchise Player
Joined: 01 May 2001
Posts: 15872
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| Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 5:00 pm Post subject: Re: Well. We're At The All-Star Break. Is It Fair To Comment Now? |
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| postandpivot wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | And 1 wrote: |
And where do you stand on this team? Is it any different from the pre-season?
Do any of you care to revise your projections in terms of W & L's?
Do you like Phil jackson as your coach?
It's the All-Star break. Care to comment? |
I pretty much stand now where I did when the season started. I think the Lakers can win 18 more games this season, which would put them at 44. I originally thought they would win between 42-45. All of that is based on good health, of course.
I think Phil is doing a good job, no surprise there.
I think the team will make the playoffs, as well.
I will be disappointed if the ending contracts, besides DG, aren't used to help the roster. It doesn't have to be a home run, just bring in a role player or two who can help defensively. DG is bringing real value to the team, so it would take a better player to improve on his roster spot. |
Name 1 or 2 role players, that can help defensively and also run the triangle on offense without bumping into to people?
I'm serious. if you can give me 2 names you know, that we could get(literally). let me know. cause as of now, i dont see anyone coming. unless we do something blockbuster. maybe i'm wrong.
people say banks still. but banks still isn't the type of guy to run a triangle offense. and truth be told. no matter what position you play on the perimeter, you will have to set the tri a few times a night. thats just how it goes. do i think marcus can do this Today? Nope. can marcus shoot the 3? not with the consistency we need. can marcus stop guys from picking him off? NOPE. so what would happen? he would get mis used and abused just like smush/vujacic because it takes a team of defenders on the same page with the same will to play defense to stop the pick and whatever. it aint just 1 or 2 guys. its all 5 need to be on the same page. otherwise a hardnose defender would be for not. and would be wasting his time here.
unless you could give me mike james. who can play some defense, and hit the 3 and penetrate and actually try a layup unlike my boy sasha. but we cant get mike without giving up something of quality, like a big. as if we dont need every piece of big we have. look, whats trade bait, that we can afford to lose just to fill in a role right now? Luke walton, and Sasha Vujacic(no body wants sasha that bad). Cook is obviously our shooter, even though smush looks like he cant keep up with anyone. thats all because of the picks that he has to deal with. and the guy still hits a decent percentage of 3's. cant fight that at all. and he has the ability to get to the whole. so even if we found a better starting pg, i still want smush around.
But what we need, is athletic movers and shakers(like atlanta). but not like atlanta. because those guys would look horrible trying to run the triangle. they look good against us playing bad defense and not understanding that these guys play to miss, not to make shots. thats why they outrebounded us last night. and this is the toughest thing when you use the tri as your primary set. We need guys that can catch on quickly, hit open 3's, make very good decisions, and play solid defense. where in the world are we going to find these type of guys? without having to send everyone except for kobe. once we do that. we will still be missing the same amount of players that we need. this is the dilemna that we're in right now.
So we are more or less banking on some of these guys turning into something by next year. yes, NOT this year. but next year. if not, we can do the ship em move and try another group of guys out for 1 year and a summer. unless some rookie comes along and saves the day. i dont see us getting anyone. |
Perimeter defenders who could run the Tri? I would look into Trenton Hassell's availability. Good defender at Guard. Familiar with the tri. Another defender that might be available (and can even shoot) is Romain Sato (last seen when waived by SA last year).
SGH |
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And 1
Star Player
Joined: 12 Apr 2001
Posts: 2586
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| Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 5:16 pm Post subject: Re: Well. We're At The All-Star Break. Is It Fair To Comment Now? |
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| sodapoppenski wrote: | | Just_Looking wrote: | | raffi wrote: |
Nice post. Those of us with "vision" are the clear minority on this board, but it doesn't make us wrong or any less loyal - just realistic.
The facts keep resonating loud and clear - not that it makes me feel any better. I'd love to be wrong, but that's not likely. |
I am curious. Why do you call it "vision" when someone complains and pisses and moans and throws out a constant barrage of trade demands to address every single problem that occurs in every single individual game? Yet when someone suggests patience and taking the time to see which of our young players develops so we KNOW what our long term needs are, you call it being a "homer".
The NBA is litered with the corpses of teams that took the short term approach you all suggest. Look at the Knicks ... they are the epitome of a team run with no true "vision" but rather a short sighted "do it now?" approach that so many fans advocate in this forum. Had we done what the fans demanded this off-season, we would be a team peopled by the likes of Anderson, Hunter, Jerome James, Ely, etc etc and would not only be in last place but we'd be locked out of any cap flexibility until 2012.
We may not go far this season but we WILL know exactly what we need. And right now it is apparent that Smush and Sasha are NOT the backcourt of the future while Mihm and Bynum have progressed better than we had hoped. Your "vision" is nothing more than the ability to look at a single game and see what caused a specific loss. That's not "vision". That is shortsightedness that has, thankfully, never plagued this franchise and, hopefully, never will. |
Amen.
To many people on here have NBA 2k6 on the brian.
They want to pull the trigger for any trade possibility that comes by.
Making the RIGHT decisions for a team takes patience, being SELECTIVE
about which star you make a big move for, and when that player is
available, it even involves a little luck in happening to have the right
pieces to offer. |
Yes. This "selectivity" was personified by the Kwame Brown acquisition. |
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postandpivot
Retired Number
Joined: 16 Sep 2003
Posts: 36822
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| Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 5:36 pm Post subject: Re: Well. We're At The All-Star Break. Is It Fair To Comment Now? |
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| Sister Golden Hair wrote: | | postandpivot wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | And 1 wrote: |
And where do you stand on this team? Is it any different from the pre-season?
Do any of you care to revise your projections in terms of W & L's?
Do you like Phil jackson as your coach?
It's the All-Star break. Care to comment? |
I pretty much stand now where I did when the season started. I think the Lakers can win 18 more games this season, which would put them at 44. I originally thought they would win between 42-45. All of that is based on good health, of course.
I think Phil is doing a good job, no surprise there.
I think the team will make the playoffs, as well.
I will be disappointed if the ending contracts, besides DG, aren't used to help the roster. It doesn't have to be a home run, just bring in a role player or two who can help defensively. DG is bringing real value to the team, so it would take a better player to improve on his roster spot. |
Name 1 or 2 role players, that can help defensively and also run the triangle on offense without bumping into to people?
I'm serious. if you can give me 2 names you know, that we could get(literally). let me know. cause as of now, i dont see anyone coming. unless we do something blockbuster. maybe i'm wrong.
people say banks still. but banks still isn't the type of guy to run a triangle offense. and truth be told. no matter what position you play on the perimeter, you will have to set the tri a few times a night. thats just how it goes. do i think marcus can do this Today? Nope. can marcus shoot the 3? not with the consistency we need. can marcus stop guys from picking him off? NOPE. so what would happen? he would get mis used and abused just like smush/vujacic because it takes a team of defenders on the same page with the same will to play defense to stop the pick and whatever. it aint just 1 or 2 guys. its all 5 need to be on the same page. otherwise a hardnose defender would be for not. and would be wasting his time here.
unless you could give me mike james. who can play some defense, and hit the 3 and penetrate and actually try a layup unlike my boy sasha. but we cant get mike without giving up something of quality, like a big. as if we dont need every piece of big we have. look, whats trade bait, that we can afford to lose just to fill in a role right now? Luke walton, and Sasha Vujacic(no body wants sasha that bad). Cook is obviously our shooter, even though smush looks like he cant keep up with anyone. thats all because of the picks that he has to deal with. and the guy still hits a decent percentage of 3's. cant fight that at all. and he has the ability to get to the whole. so even if we found a better starting pg, i still want smush around.
But what we need, is athletic movers and shakers(like atlanta). but not like atlanta. because those guys would look horrible trying to run the triangle. they look good against us playing bad defense and not understanding that these guys play to miss, not to make shots. thats why they outrebounded us last night. and this is the toughest thing when you use the tri as your primary set. We need guys that can catch on quickly, hit open 3's, make very good decisions, and play solid defense. where in the world are we going to find these type of guys? without having to send everyone except for kobe. once we do that. we will still be missing the same amount of players that we need. this is the dilemna that we're in right now.
So we are more or less banking on some of these guys turning into something by next year. yes, NOT this year. but next year. if not, we can do the ship em move and try another group of guys out for 1 year and a summer. unless some rookie comes along and saves the day. i dont see us getting anyone. |
Perimeter defenders who could run the Tri? I would look into Trenton Hassell's availability. Good defender at Guard. Familiar with the tri. Another defender that might be available (and can even shoot) is Romain Sato (last seen when waived by SA last year).
SGH |
I forgot about my boy Sato. good thinking, that could be our laron profit replacement. but how aggressive is he about scoring? see thats what i liked about laron. he didn't care if kobe cussed him out. he knew he had some skill, so he tried things. most times it went okay, sometimes it didn't. i dont need another devean green. athleticism with no jumper, and afraid to try and score. not a knock on green, cause he is a rookie. so what do you expect.
as far as Hassell. perhaps. not a bad idea. how's that 3pter though?
and my thing is this. would you want Hassell and NO LO at all? NO. and there's the dilemna. how can we get hassell? Give up Bynum and Luke walton. or give up Cook (as if we dont need his jump shot).
we are in such a tight spot, because we dont know yet what we have on this team. I almost wish we were running a normal offense, so we could see exactly what we were working with fairly easily. but with the tri. you cant always tell if its the player or the lack of full knowledge of the offense, thats the problem.
and for the record. Look at Goldenstate. whats their problem?
BD(a true star PG, that can score if need be, and defend)
Jay Rich (a very athletic scorer, not big time, but scorer nonetheless)
Murhphy (a scoring mobile PF, with a 3pter)
peitris(very athletic defender, that can hit the corner 3 well)
Fisher(vet savvy PG, with clutch shooting, and scoring ability)
Dunleavy 6'9 or 6'10 SF (whats his problem?)
Foyle( you just paid him a bunch of cash, whats his problem?)
Why is Gstate not balling like they're supposed to?
i mean you 2 or 3 scorers, you have to shooters( jay rich/murphy), you have Pf that can score inside and out, and defender and rebounder in Foyle, and PG with scoring ability, defense, and 2nd in the league in assist. WHATS THE PROBLEM? |
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clone
Star Player
Joined: 28 Apr 2001
Posts: 2655
Location: LA
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| Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 5:38 pm Post subject: |
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My 2 cents at the all star break:
-the lakers still can't play defense
-kwame has yet to show he can be a 10-10 guy
-LO's inconsistency is keeping the lakers from having a legit second option
-smush is ok but the lakers need an upgrade at the 1
-bynum has shown he will be all star sooner than later
-brian cook can shoot.........and thats all
-the lakers are going to need more than phil's return to make the playoffs
_________________
NBA Champs
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LucasWhite
Starting Rotation
Joined: 20 Feb 2005
Posts: 732
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| Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 5:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Yeah, you were right with your concerns. Anything short of a championship is a lost season and this is another lost season. Also, there is little to no hope that there will be another good season any time soon (besides Kobe Bryant). |
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Sister Golden Hair
Franchise Player
Joined: 01 May 2001
Posts: 15872
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| Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 5:45 pm Post subject: |
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Post and Pivot,
I agree with you re Laron. It really is eye-opening to realize that a journeyman could be actualy quite a central player: he could give Kobe some rest, he had some offensive ability, he is a smart player and seemingly understood the Tri, and he can play defense. I don't want to make it seem like he was the key to the season, but his loss underscores just how thin this team is.
His loss is a lot like Horace Grant's injury duing that star-crossed 4 HOFer season: sometimes it's the smaler pieces that can make a significant difference.
SGH |
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Sister Golden Hair
Franchise Player
Joined: 01 May 2001
Posts: 15872
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| Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 5:48 pm Post subject: |
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Post and Pivot,
GS's problem is baron. Won't listen to his coach. Loves to free-lance. And has reportedly rubbed several teammates the wrong way. Couple that with an inexperienced (in the Pros) coach looking over his shoulder, a young squad, and you get a sub-50 team.
Baron is supremely talented but has never led a team anywhere, and as a PG that's part of the job description.
SGH |
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postandpivot
Retired Number
Joined: 16 Sep 2003
Posts: 36822
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| Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 6:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Sister Golden Hair wrote: | Post and Pivot,
GS's problem is baron. Won't listen to his coach. Loves to free-lance. And has reportedly rubbed several teammates the wrong way. Couple that with an inexperienced (in the Pros) coach looking over his shoulder, a young squad, and you get a sub-50 team.
Baron is supremely talented but has never led a team anywhere, and as a PG that's part of the job description.
SGH |
wait a minute on BD now. are you saying he was leading when it was he and Mashburn? they were winning a lot of games. and then Mash went down. then he would come back, and BD would go down. then he would come back then mash would go down, then BD would come back. until mash stayed down. then it became bad back BD and the Charlotte nobodies. kind of like T-back the orlando Tragic.
So we dont know if BD can lead or not. now perhaps he isn't getting along with some guys. or the coach. that will cause a problemo. i agree there. So trade him if its that bad. there are people out there that would take a BD. but thats not the issue. the thing is this. they have what we beg for on this site. 1st and 2nd option scorers, shooters, a quick pg of their own that can score and pass with the best of em, play a little de also. so why they are not in the playoffs in beyond LG. or it should be. because we truly think. if we ship LO for even lets say KG straight up(tasty trade of course). we would automatically catapult ourselves into the 4thseed or something. people dont realize even though KG is a baller, he still doesn't score like a first option, and if you put him in an offense like the tri, he may be even more passive. because now you will try to use is abilities. which is passing also. not just scoring and boarding. besides. KG isn't an Inside presence. so when mihm goes out. Kobe puts up 40, KG puts up 25, and smush puts up 10, george puts up 8 to 14, cook 8 to 16. thats 105 on a great night. on a usual night thats 90 per night. and thats assuming kobe is giving us 40. which is ridiculous to have a situation like that Still even with KG. So then what?
and by the way, we will be stuck from that point on. no more pickups unless its for mle and league minimum from now until KG and kobes contracts expire. you're still stuck in that shaq and kobe scenario. 2 super guys, but not enough bench ballers, or not enough starting roll players with a 6man off the pine. no more 2 man tandems are winning it all. So i need KG and LO and KB on the same squad. can mitch pull that off? NO. So why am i going off on mitch for not working a literal miracle... doesn't make sense.
We need LO's multiple abilities, we need kobe of course, we need Kwame's defense and rebounding at the big position. i mean we need these things a lot a whole lot. we need cooks shooting. we need Smush's shooting with his athleticism and steals ability(if we could learn how to play defense as a team, smush would look like cooper). so unless we can trade our suspect up and comers for proven solid players. which is stupid on the other GM's part. how in the world would mitch be able to get anyone that would fit int he puzzle to complete things. not just take one piece away and trade it for another piece. you will still have a whole. and a big one at that. |
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