I really feel sorry for Kobe
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lakers0505
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 10:53 pm    Post subject:

patience...like its been said, we arent that far off, we have the greatest ever maybe, and a stud big man in the wings...were are set for the long haul...remember it took 13 years before we returned to prominence, and it wont be that long again...god imagine being the clippers fans?? we need to chill.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 11:05 pm    Post subject:

^Patience is an easy answer.

It's frustrating to think, it took 5 years just to get a good draft out.

Every one of those drafts have hurt the Laker position today.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 12:06 am    Post subject:

yeah..poor guy. makes millions of dollars a year. is a hero to a lot of people including myself. is blessed with the gift of basketball. has his health, his families health....poor guy. i wish everyone was as bad off as him.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 12:08 am    Post subject:

Feel sorry for Kobe? How about us?

Since the last championship, we have watched as our GM take a championship team and in less than five years, made us a lottery team.

He should win the Non-Executive of the Year Award with Isiah Thomas.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 1:12 am    Post subject:

Zhengi wrote:
I don't think losing a few games here and there consitutes wasting his prime years. Does he need a better supporting cast? Sure, he does. Any great player does. But to say that 3-4 years have already passed with the Lakers wasting his prime is wrong. We'll just have to wait and see how the Lakers improve.


It is amazing how the fans mail it in even worse than the Lakers do on every single loss...

Good grief...

The Lakers will make the playoffs in this there 2nd yr of restucture. There are teams with better rosters than the Lakers that aren't going to make the playoffs and, it is due in part to the Lakers in fact.

Pronouncing the Lakers as a bunch of "goldbricking lazy bums" is not only inaccurate but unappreciative of the achievments thus far. Evaluating each and every games performance is fine for venting but, make no mistake this squad is ahead of the curve considering everything they have endured.

Some of ya'll need to calm down. The doom and gloom party could be postponed till at least after the playoffs. Ok, they lost in a way that they seem to insist on. A back to back. No need to whoop out the crying towels of death after each loss. You're overreacting. The Lakers aren't in the basement.

You don't believe it' Watch what happens to Boston later on today...
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 1:30 am    Post subject:

Freakout wrote:
raffi wrote:
Trey wrote:
raffi wrote:
Guys, it's really not that complicated. The pieces we acquired in the Shaq trade sealed our fate. Accordingly, none of this should come as a surprise (although it IS frustrating as hell).

And yes, Kobe had something to do with that. I really don't think he has any room to complain right now. In the meantime, scoring title here we come.


What did he have to do with it??

Did he force shaq to yell curse words at Dr. Buss in the preseason DEMANDING a contract extension on top of the 3 years he still had left on the current one and at a pay scale that would have paid him $38,000,000 when he was 38 years old? DID HE FORCE HIM TO DO THAT?


Above all other reasons, they moved Shaq to get Kobe to re-sign (I think that = "having something to do with it"). There was no other reason for the fire-sale/timing, which I believe contributed to consummating such a horrible trade. That is the truth, even if you're not willing to accept it.


Trade was horrible because of Mitch. His track record speaks for itself. One week or five months would have made no difference.


Now, to some degree this is true. I don't believe for one minute that Shaq was going to sit out the season though. That was a bluff. He was as surprised by the Lakers not coddling him in the end as can be.

Had the Lakers talked to Kobe and, said the plan was to try and, get the best value for Shaq that they could and ask that he be patient, I truly believe that Bryant is mature and intelligent enough to know that would have been the best route to take. Even if it would have taken to the midseason deadline.

The biggest problem that existed at that time was that Shaq was slapping a veto on some of the better deals! Lakers fans didn't care. Hang Mitch...
It was Shaqs insistence that he be made happy and, damn everybody else. Rumor also had it that Riley considered handing over wade as well until Shaq being the "sharp individual" he is stopped that.

pg-Dwayne Wade
sg-Kobe Bryant
sm-Lamar Odom

Who else? Who cares!

The Lakers also hurried that deal in large part due to fears of both Bryant walking and, Shaq sitting. Talk about a new franchise record for losses! Wwwwwwwhhhhhheeeeeewwww!! If all of those threats would have came about? Yeah some of us here need to recognize. Things could have been a helluva whole lot worse...

Mitch would'nt have been able to walk his dog in his own neighborhood because fans would have held him completely responsible just like they do every time a player misses a layup.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 1:58 am    Post subject:

40ptmachine wrote:
And 1 wrote:
In revisiting the alleged Frye/Odom deal...

Why would you want to keep a player on your roster who: A) doesn't always give full effort; and, B) suffers mental lapses in crucial moments?

Though making rookie mistakes, Frye is showing intensity and effort every time he steps on the court. Mix in the possiblity of unloading Lamar's contract, and you have some added capspace sooner than what you would have expected by just riding out two more years?


These guys thing Odom is a star or sum. he is ROLE PLAYER wolf, trading him for frye is a good deal by far


Channing Frye is a lateral move at best... So, why do that just so he can come in, and have learn what it took this team half a season to learn and, still haven't quite got it? The risk is to high and, Frye currently brings less to the table than Odom... LO isn't even 30 yrs old so what is the point?
Makes no sense. Just trading to be trading huh?

Why do you, and some people seriously believe that franchises are willing to give up all there franchise players to the Lakers? You call Odom a role player and, then turn right around and suggest that an organization give up there top player for him in other threads?

This is a fallacy that most of the malcontents in here just refuse to understand. Clubs are not anxious to give the "hated Mitch" there top players for the trading commodities that the Lakers have to offer.

How many fans do you think in New York, Atlanta, Boston and even possibley Philly are slamming the GM because he can't bring Kobe to their town? I truly believe Laker fans are special when it comes to this.

Blamming Mitch for not bringing the top players in the league to LA is just soooooooooooooo silly! If you want to beat on Mitch about draft picks ok to some degree. Mod Mike has made me see that Mitch's draft picks could have been better. However, there is a lot of micromanaging going on in the Lakers front office and, Mitch is basically just one vote even in that process.

You can't buy a Mazzerati with Wampum! Dealing around this league is not a walk in the park and, no whenever you call another GM he doesn't just answer the phone to Mitch with a big smile and say, "Hi Mitch, how's the little Lady? Long time no see, have you finally improved on your golf game? Ha ha. Well I know you called to see what I can do for you my dear friend. Who do you need? I'll have em there for you by tomorrow morning!"

Please... Some of ya'll need to stop trippin...

The NBA is a cut throat organization with guys who know how to "use a knife" Mitch needs to be lightened up on...
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 2:15 am    Post subject:

Trey wrote:
Zhengi wrote:
I wish I was in Kobe's place so that everyone could feel sorry for me as well. I would just ride in my 2006 ferrari to my beach home with my lovely wife and kid and sulk in my millions and millions of dollars. Then, afterwards, I'll go to the gym and play the game I love to play for the greatest franchise in the entire world. *sigh* Kobe's life must really suck.


Feel very fortunate that Kobe is not driven only by money.. he wants to win... the money just makes it less painful when he loses




Ok, know that's the spirit! This situation is nowhere near as bad as some have made it out to be!

By this thread you would swear that Kobe had been whipped, tied to a cross, and made to carry it from Los Angeles to the Baha! He is having a fabulous year, and this season sealed his future into the HOF... He is going to lead his team into the playoffs after being abandoned by the games most dominant Big after only 2 seasons.

The pity is unwarranted...
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 8:32 am    Post subject:

hoopschick29 wrote:
wolfpaclaker wrote:
Purplereign34 wrote:
i get the feeling most of kobe's teammates(especially lamar) are intimidated by kobe. his fire for the game maybe intimidates some players. i think this because lamar always makes comments like, "i love playing with mr. bryant, he is the best in the game, we need to help him". either that or lamar always talks like that.

I think Lamar is just not comfortable not having the ball for so many stretches
He is struggling with being an off the ball player. That's the biggest problem IMO.


Oh gimme a break. This excuse makes absolutely no sense. What has Lamar Odom ever done in his career that would warrant him needing the ball so much? It's not like he's coming from a situation where he was a 20-25 ppg scorer who took a lot of shots and he's having to give up touches. That I could understand. But he's always been passive, with or without the basketball.

And you think his biggest problem is that he's struggling playing off the ball?? That is ridiculous. Lamar doesn't have a ball problem. He has a heart problem. He doesn't hustle. He can't sustain positive energy or focus. He disappears when Kobe needs him to pick up some slack.

Lamar Odom is not the King of Egypt. Conditions cannot be custom made to his every deficiency just so he can do things he's supposed to do anyway. I refuse to believe that the reason why he can't tune himself into a basketball game everynight is because he doesn't have the ball enough.

Umm - who said Lamar should be getting the ball like he used to?

It's on him to improve as an off the ball player.

But you are ignoring that in Miami and certain years in Clipperland he was the guy that got the ball the most on those teams. Be it in the post or wing - LO was the guy that got the ball consistently.

In LA there are long, long stretches where he doesn't even touch the ball.

Some of it's his fault. A lot of it's coaching and playing with a player that dominates the game. He's never been coached the way Phil coaches (Think it through yourself rather than asking me what play you should run) and played with a dominant scorer like Kobe that can pretty much take over the game whenever he feels neccessary.

Mike Smith on KTLA said it best. He said Odom's a "great kid" that is so lovable and enjoyable to be around. But he's not a smart guy and for the first time in his career he is not going to be the best player on his team regardless of what he does. Called him being the younger brother that could never fill in the shoes.

That summed it up perfectly. Laker fans just won't tolerate anything Odom does, because no matter how good he plays - a) he's not Shaq and b) he's not as good as Kobe.

On any other team but LA, fans would appreciate what he brings to the table. But because of who he was traded for and who is #1 on this team, no matter what Odom does - he will be bashed.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 8:41 am    Post subject:

THE_SHOES wrote:
40ptmachine wrote:
And 1 wrote:
In revisiting the alleged Frye/Odom deal...

Why would you want to keep a player on your roster who: A) doesn't always give full effort; and, B) suffers mental lapses in crucial moments?

Though making rookie mistakes, Frye is showing intensity and effort every time he steps on the court. Mix in the possiblity of unloading Lamar's contract, and you have some added capspace sooner than what you would have expected by just riding out two more years?


These guys thing Odom is a star or sum. he is ROLE PLAYER wolf, trading him for frye is a good deal by far


<snipped>

Channing Frye is a lateral move at best... So, why do that just so he can come in, and have learn what it took this team half a season to learn and, still haven't quite got it? The risk is to high and, Frye currently brings less to the table than Odom... LO isn't even 30 yrs old so what is the point?
Makes no sense. Just trading to be trading huh?

Why do you, and some people seriously believe that franchises are willing to give up all there franchise players to the Lakers? You call Odom a role player and, then turn right around and suggest that an organization give up there top player for him in other threads?


Fair enough point. Allow me to explain my position.

First of all, I think it's important to note a couple of things about Odom's most ardent supporters on this message board (you and Wolf):

A) Wolf believes that Odom doesn't show top effort on a nightly basis and that he (Odom, but an arguement can be made for Wolf as well) suffers from mental lapses which hurts the team; and,

B) You have indicated that a Channing Frye/Lamar Odom deal might be a lateral move for the Lakers.

With these important concessions in mind, I have to ask you:

What do the Lakers have to lose?

Whether you be a "homer" or a "moaner," no one on this board believes that the Lakers are a team capable of making any noise in the playoffs (should they even get there). So if we lose games in the process of getting a player like Frye (or whoever) - so be it. The frustration with losing will be tempered by the fact that we've got a young player who brings what he has to the table on a nightly basis.

On the flip side, What would the Lakers have gained by making such a move?

Well, for one thing, they would have realized some hefty capspace significantly sooner than expected - giving management (assuming that they're awake) more options.

Another thing is this, let's assume that Channing Frye isn't quite Lamar's "equal" in terms of production right now.

HE IS A ROOKIE that has shown very good skill, work ethic, and intensity/heart. A quick glance at his season numbers shows that he's averaging 13.4 ppg and 6.1 rpg in about 25 minutes of play. This is a full quarter less than what it takes Lamar to give you 14 points, 9 rebounds, and 5 assists.

Now, I won't be so bold as to say that Frye will ever average 5+ apg - this is clearly not his role. But I will say that, with that extra quarter of action, those 13 points will probably increase to about 16-17, and the rebounds are likely to rise to 8-9. I base the increased scoring average by looking at his excellent FG & FT percentages of 48% & 83%, respectively.

This is while he's a rookie. And, though there's no guarantee (as Lamar has exemplified) that he'll improve from his rookie season, his background and experience while playing at Arizona shows that this guy continues to improve and get better. And I seriously doubt that he's prone to the mental errors we see LO making in critical situations.

One other thing along the lines that this move would have been "lateral." If that were true, I'd sure like to see what Phil Jackson could do with Frye. We've seen a half season of Lamar Odom under one of the best coaches in league history, and I'm not too impressed.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 8:49 am    Post subject:

Quote:
Wolf believes that Odom doesn't show top effort on a nightly basis and that he (Odom, but an arguement can be made for Wolf as well) suffers from mental lapses which hurts the team; and,

Yes I believe that and I believe that Odom suffers from ball watching as Kobe takes over or Phil let's them figure it out.

The thing is - Odom has always been a primary option all his teams that he has done well with.

Ask Caron Butler and Dwayne Wade. They will both sympathize with Odom because they know his talent.

You may think it's all on him, but it isn't

Even Mike Smith (KTLA Clipper announcer) said that he feels for Odom. The guy is in a situation he has never been where the coach doesn't call set plays and he's always going to be #2 on the team.

A big part is on LO. A big part is on Phil to make some adjustments to help his players get more involved

But I agree on this. If they want to continue just letting them figure things out on their own and not utilize Odom properly - then it may be time to trade Odom (even if it isn't for an All-Star)

Odom is too dumb to figure it out on his own and Kobe is too dominating a personality and player to allow Odom to be a bigger part of the team.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 9:29 am    Post subject:

wolfpaclaker wrote:
Quote:
Wolf believes that Odom doesn't show top effort on a nightly basis and that he (Odom, but an arguement can be made for Wolf as well) suffers from mental lapses which hurts the team; and,

Yes I believe that and I believe that Odom suffers from ball watching as Kobe takes over or Phil let's them figure it out.

The thing is - Odom has always been a primary option all his teams that he has done well with.

Ask Caron Butler and Dwayne Wade. They will both sympathize with Odom because they know his talent.

You may think it's all on him, but it isn't

Even Mike Smith (KTLA Clipper announcer) said that he feels for Odom. The guy is in a situation he has never been where the coach doesn't call set plays and he's always going to be #2 on the team.

A big part is on LO. A big part is on Phil to make some adjustments to help his players get more involved

But I agree on this. If they want to continue just letting them figure things out on their own and not utilize Odom properly - then it may be time to trade Odom (even if it isn't for an All-Star)

Odom is too dumb to figure it out on his own and Kobe is too dominating a personality and player to allow Odom to be a bigger part of the team.


Well, based upon what you've wrote, it doesn't appear as though Odom is a good fit for this team. Which is what I've been saying since the off-season.

What is the purpose of keeping a player (who clearly doesn't fit your scheme and doesn't seem able/willing to make it work) on the team?

I say, go get someone who might.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 9:40 am    Post subject:

THE_SHOES wrote:
40ptmachine wrote:
And 1 wrote:
In revisiting the alleged Frye/Odom deal...

Why would you want to keep a player on your roster who: A) doesn't always give full effort; and, B) suffers mental lapses in crucial moments?

Though making rookie mistakes, Frye is showing intensity and effort every time he steps on the court. Mix in the possiblity of unloading Lamar's contract, and you have some added capspace sooner than what you would have expected by just riding out two more years?


These guys thing Odom is a star or sum. he is ROLE PLAYER wolf, trading him for frye is a good deal by far


<snipped>

Why do you, and some people seriously believe that franchises are willing to give up all there franchise players to the Lakers? You call Odom a role player and, then turn right around and suggest that an organization give up there top player for him in other threads?


Sorry, I forgot to address this part in my earlier response.

This goes back to my post on Friday where I questioned Lamar's trade value in the league. Whether or not it was true, it was reported that the Knicks turned down a trade that would have brought them Odom in exchange for Channing.

Though Frye appears to be a good prospect and worthy of his high draft selection, I don't believe that anyone would consider him to be a "franchise" type of player. At best, he appears to be a solid role-player. I don't even know if he's All Star material.

So, when the question is asked, If the rumor was true, why didn't the Knicks make the deal? I'm left with the answer that they felt that Channing Frye is either: A) a better player than Odom right now; and/or, B) will become a better player than Odom in the not-to-distant future.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 9:40 am    Post subject:

LO will prove himself in time. I'm not against trading him for the right package, but I want to upgrade in the process.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 10:37 am    Post subject:

And 1 wrote:
THE_SHOES wrote:
40ptmachine wrote:
And 1 wrote:
In revisiting the alleged Frye/Odom deal...

Why would you want to keep a player on your roster who: A) doesn't always give full effort; and, B) suffers mental lapses in crucial moments?

Though making rookie mistakes, Frye is showing intensity and effort every time he steps on the court. Mix in the possiblity of unloading Lamar's contract, and you have some added capspace sooner than what you would have expected by just riding out two more years?


These guys thing Odom is a star or sum. he is ROLE PLAYER wolf, trading him for frye is a good deal by far


<snipped>

Why do you, and some people seriously believe that franchises are willing to give up all there franchise players to the Lakers? You call Odom a role player and, then turn right around and suggest that an organization give up there top player for him in other threads?


Sorry, I forgot to address this part in my earlier response.

This goes back to my post on Friday where I questioned Lamar's trade value in the league. Whether or not it was true, it was reported that the Knicks turned down a trade that would have brought them Odom in exchange for Channing.

Though Frye appears to be a good prospect and worthy of his high draft selection, I don't believe that anyone would consider him to be a "franchise" type of player. At best, he appears to be a solid role-player. I don't even know if he's All Star material.

So, when the question is asked, If the rumor was true, why didn't the Knicks make the deal? I'm left with the answer that they felt that Channing Frye is either: A) a better player than Odom right now; and/or, B) will become a better player than Odom in the not-to-distant future.


Fine but, speculation and, prognostication has gotten Mitch into how much hot water already?

The Channing Frye's in this league are not that difficult to find or attain. If you're going to insist on shopping LO, let it be a clear advantage for the Lakers... Frye does not represent that and, is clearly a step backwards on to many levels as far as the Lakers are concerned. Frye will not surpass Odom this season or, next no matter what he does. So, this is why it makes little to no sense to me. Meanwhile, Odom with having learned to play with Bryant and, finally gotten used to the triangle will be just like Devean George in that he may not be so valuable to anybody else but is huge for the Lakers. Frye may struggle equally in the tri as everybody else for all you know. He could even be worse than Kwame. The tri is not meant for everybody. Pop and flash gets watered down in a hurry once you get into the triangle offense. It is a system that takes away some of the skills that make some players look so appealing to Laker fans.

Judgements are quickly made to shop LO based on every mistake that he has ever made. This is a mistake on the observers part. If we have learned anything down through the years with watching Veterans and, rookies alike. The triangle offense alters even the best players games to the point that they look not only awkward but down right lousy in some cases.

NO, it's a bad move and could be extremely dangerous. It has been said to many times by those in the know that it takes time for players to blossom in the tri... Right now if you don't have patience and, you believe the only option to building this team are 6month tryouts of "show me now, or don't unpack" you're going to be in for a lot of anxiety...

Jackson builds champions he thinks have the right character. With a legacy set in stone. I'll trust him, not you...
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 11:29 am    Post subject:

Quote:
Well, based upon what you've wrote, it doesn't appear as though Odom is a good fit for this team. Which is what I've been saying since the off-season.

What is the purpose of keeping a player (who clearly doesn't fit your scheme and doesn't seem able/willing to make it work) on the team?

I say, go get someone who might

As currently constructed no, he may not be the right fit.

They will have to do one of three things

1- Change the strategy of the team to post up big's and instead make Odom their primary post player. Similar to how Phil would make sure Kobe and the rest of the Lakers got Shaq the ball early, the same must be done with Odom in the 1st qtr.

2- Trade Odom for a superstar (no brainer why that would help)

3- Aquire some actual power inside and a shooter on the perimeter. Thus the driving lanes and the Odom "passive" game is maxamized. Even if he averages 14 points - his assists would rise and the team would have a very a balanced attack. With a shooter and a PF that can score, teams wouldn't be able to stop Lamar from penetrating as they do now because it would be too hard to defend Kobe, a PF, shooter and Mihm while still clogging up the paint.

An example would be a lineup of Mihm, Boozer, Odom, Kobe and Mike James. 5 players all of whom have ability to average double figures and each bring something different to the table.

The dumbest thing they can do is option 4. Trade Odom for Channing Frye crap or a draft pick+ cap space that will ensure this team goes to lottery next season.

Judging from what folks wanted with Caron last season, and how that turned out - Option 4 is very possible.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 11:43 am    Post subject:

From The Shoes:

Quote:
If you're going to insist on shopping LO, let it be a clear advantage for the Lakers


From Wolf:

Quote:
2- Trade Odom for a superstar (no brainer why that would help)

3- Aquire some actual power inside and a shooter on the perimeter. Thus the driving lanes and the Odom "passive" game is maxamized. Even if he averages 14 points - his assists would rise and the team would have a very a balanced attack.


Again, I pose the question:

What is Lamar Odom's trade value in the league?

I have serious doubts that Odom can be traded for a "clear advantage" or "superstar." I just don't believe he's considered to be worthy of any legit prospect or All Star-caliber player (except for maybe another team's headache).

If I was Seattle, I wouldn't part with Lewis (straight-up).

If I was Atlanta, I wouldn't part with Johnson.

So who would represent the All Star that Lamar could fetch us?

At best, we might get a solid role-player in exchange for him. But if that player is puts forth the effort every night, is smart, and can play within the Triangle offense, that would be an upgrade in my opinion - even if his perceived "talent" is less than that of Odom's.

As for acquiring extra pieces to miximize Odom's "passivity," I just don't think we're gonna be able to swing a deal to get a Boozer or James without LO being in the mix - especially for a Boozer-type.

I would like to think that we could find a prospect in the draft, but Kupchak's record in that area isn't very good.
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wolfpaclaker
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Joined: 29 May 2002
Posts: 58318

PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 11:55 am    Post subject:

^
I'm not a GM, so I wouldn't know exactly.

I can quote insiders to back claims that he has good value, but then again there's still no legit proof of that either.

Similarly there's no proof of that Channing Frye crap.

So I don't know. My take is that the teams that trade guys like Rasheed and Odom - don't get better for it unless they do it for a superstar.

I mean do you think Portland was better off with Rat and SAR than Rasheed? Do you think GS is better off without Jamison?

Trading an All-Star calibar player for two role players who fill other positions ussually doesn't pan out. Even if Lamar is an underachiever, he is one that brings a lot of things to the table (Mitch and Phil both acknowledge that)

Time will tell. Me personally, if I can't even land a Boozer or quality power players without dealing LO - then I just wait out for the capspace where I can pull off some FA signings then.

Ofcourse the best thing would be to trade him for a SS, but that's not going to be easy ......
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mm708
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Joined: 25 Jun 2005
Posts: 246

PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 12:03 pm    Post subject:

Kobe's only chance of winning a championship is 18 years old with a nicknames of "socks."
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Scherm
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Joined: 12 Apr 2001
Posts: 4155

PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 3:02 pm    Post subject:

Thanks for pointing out that Kobe gives 110%.

Now you can understand why everything is Kobe's fault. He should be giving 120%.


(Joe McDonnell yesterday asked who on this team had any heart, besides Kobe and Chris Mihm. Nobody could come up with another name.)
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40ptmachine
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Joined: 13 Jan 2006
Posts: 633

PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 5:12 pm    Post subject:

angel wrote:
LO will prove himself in time.


Maybe in 7 more years
_________________
After 7 seasons I am a NON ALL STAR, in fact, I am a ROLE PLAYER making Superstar $$$
plus; I get standing ovations when I reach double digits
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