Hmm...WHAT HAVE I SAID? 1 st Half: Kobe the facilitator + 2nd Half Kobe the Dagger = Lakers Win

 
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loyola66
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 8:58 am    Post subject: Hmm...WHAT HAVE I SAID? 1 st Half: Kobe the facilitator + 2nd Half Kobe the Dagger = Lakers Win

...well, I think Phil and the players might have read my post about Kobe facilitating in the first half and putting it away in the 2nd a few days ago....cuz last night's game was like watching my whole plan/thoughts unfold almost to perfection...

Kobe did an awesome job helping get other peeps involved in the first half, and actually throughout the 3rd, and then when Orlando made its run in the 4th, what do you know, Kobe turns it up and puts it away!

And that's how I really feel a team can best use a player like Kobe, that is, not to have him avg 45/season and go off for 70 pts a lot of games (literally carrying a team), but to have him more as a killer weapon in the 3rd or 4th when the lead will most lively waver too close for comfort and put the baby away. Let Chris, Smush, Cook, Lamar, TURIAF! ,etc get theirs early, and see if you can build a nice 8-10 pt lead, and if you can't sustain it, OCHO time. Now yes, this sometimes won't work (ie players will have off nights, we play against REALLY good teams detroit, san an) and that when having a player like Kobe who can drop 50 really helps, also Kobe might not be able to deliver effectively in the 4th to put it away, but I'll take my chances with this method over anyother one for now...Yes I'd like the team to have total balance and win games without having to rely on Kobe even in the 4th, but I think I'm a realist here, and recognize that this is a young and inexperienced team and we ahve a lotta trouble in at the end of games or after haltime, and the best formula to win and develop more consistency is to have Kobe facilitate first and then close it in the 4th...the overall goal is to get this team playing more tightly and consistently in the future...plus we'll have KG soon so Kobe will have even less game sin the 4th he has to put away...
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pokoy
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 9:08 am    Post subject:

Yup. It's a learning experience for Kobe as well. First time with Phil that he's the man.

Imagine if he were the man playing with more talent. I guess this is good practice for if the Lakers ever find him some players to play with.
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PiPisKobesByatch
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 9:31 am    Post subject:

not to be brutally honest...

but these roleplayers will not shoot the same percentage against a team like the spurs, pistons, mavs, etc.

don't be fooled by the competition they played against. when you make shots, everything looks good.

but there is a reason why orlando is one of the poorer teams in the league... and it's not because they routinely shut other teams down on defense.

this facilitating role works against crappy teams, but a lot of these guys are weak mentally, and will choke against tighter defenses. kobe will have to carry these guys if they make it to the playoffs.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 9:33 am    Post subject:

That works if the other players are scoring. If not, then Kobe needs to begin scoring earlier. I think Kobe is doing a great job of balancing how to get others involved and scoring himself. That, more than his scoring average, is why I would vote for him for MVP.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 9:36 am    Post subject:

Kobe acting Mamba all game long...Lakers 9-4 in January with Kobe averaging 40+.

Losses:

@Portland (NOBODY could a buy a shot besides Kobe)

@Sacramento (I'm Not Starting That Again)

@Phoenix (Back To Back after Sacto game, played ok...legit loss)

@ Detroit (Had a chance as Detroit played poor)
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 9:38 am    Post subject:

PiPisKobesByatch wrote:
not to be brutally honest...

but these roleplayers will not shoot the same percentage against a team like the spurs, pistons, mavs, etc.

don't be fooled by the competition they played against. when you make shots, everything looks good.

but there is a reason why orlando is one of the poorer teams in the league... and it's not because they routinely shut other teams down on defense.

this facilitating role works against crappy teams, but a lot of these guys are weak mentally, and will choke against tighter defenses. kobe will have to carry these guys if they make it to the playoffs.


Dude, you know that "honesty" is not allowed here.

You're supposed to say something like, The Lakers won last night, therefore, Lamar is a great player.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 9:38 am    Post subject:

PiPisKobesByatch wrote:
not to be brutally honest...

but these roleplayers will not shoot the same percentage against a team like the spurs, pistons, mavs, etc.

don't be fooled by the competition they played against. when you make shots, everything looks good.

but there is a reason why orlando is one of the poorer teams in the league... and it's not because they routinely shut other teams down on defense.

this facilitating role works against crappy teams, but a lot of these guys are weak mentally, and will choke against tighter defenses. kobe will have to carry these guys if they make it to the playoffs.


And to be even more brutally honest, Kobe's facilitating role hasn't been working all that great on the crappy teams. He's been facilitating all month. The original poster gives the impression that it just started last night. It didn't. Kobe's FGAs went waayyy down from January, his ballhandling went way up, and the Lakers have a 5-8 record in Feb to show for it, including a 3-2 record since A-S break.

Like you said, PIP, everything looks great when people are knocking down shots and they're actually taking advantage of a weak competitor for once. But what happens tonight up in Portland? We know they're gonna struggle. How great does Kobe's facilitator role look tonight?
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loyola66
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 10:04 am    Post subject:

Offensively, this is what Kobe needs to keep doing, and if the players can't get a shot...guess what, they need to still take them. I don't want Kobe carrying this team by avg 50. I'd rather miss the playoffs and allow these other players to get better or make some personnel changes. Believe it or not, the Lakers were actually missing a lot of shots last night as well, some real easy ones too...every player goes cold sometimes (ie orlando went cold on their jumpshots in the 2nd), the key is to start most games with this game plan and then adjust if necessary. Plus the effort on D has to always be there...

If we're playing against Detroit or San Antonio or Phoenix, I agree, the others AND kobe need to turn to all turn it on immediately, but these are championship-caliber, the other 20 something teams, I'm confident in this gameplan...
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 10:12 am    Post subject: Re: Hmm...WHAT HAVE I SAID? 1 st Half: Kobe the facilitator + 2nd Half Kobe the Dagger = Lakers Win

loyola66 wrote:
...well, I think Phil and the players might have read my post about Kobe facilitating in the first half and putting it away in the 2nd a few days ago....cuz last night's game was like watching my whole plan/thoughts unfold almost to perfection...

Kobe did an awesome job helping get other peeps involved in the first half, and actually throughout the 3rd, and then when Orlando made its run in the 4th, what do you know, Kobe turns it up and puts it away!

And that's how I really feel a team can best use a player like Kobe, that is, not to have him avg 45/season and go off for 70 pts a lot of games (literally carrying a team), but to have him more as a killer weapon in the 3rd or 4th when the lead will most lively waver too close for comfort and put the baby away. Let Chris, Smush, Cook, Lamar, TURIAF! ,etc get theirs early, and see if you can build a nice 8-10 pt lead, and if you can't sustain it, OCHO time. Now yes, this sometimes won't work (ie players will have off nights, we play against REALLY good teams detroit, san an) and that when having a player like Kobe who can drop 50 really helps, also Kobe might not be able to deliver effectively in the 4th to put it away, but I'll take my chances with this method over anyother one for now...Yes I'd like the team to have total balance and win games without having to rely on Kobe even in the 4th, but I think I'm a realist here, and recognize that this is a young and inexperienced team and we ahve a lotta trouble in at the end of games or after haltime, and the best formula to win and develop more consistency is to have Kobe facilitate first and then close it in the 4th...the overall goal is to get this team playing more tightly and consistently in the future...plus we'll have KG soon so Kobe will have even less game sin the 4th he has to put away...


This not your idea, it is Tex and Phil's. Kobe has said countless times that he has learned from those guys to "set the game up " for him to take over in the fourth. Ala Cleveland Cavaliers game..........

But yes i see what you're saying. I think it is a great method, one thing that scares me though is if he doesnt shoot a lot in the first 2 quarters or 3, and then wants to turn it on but he hasn't been in a rhythm enough to find his stroke. (when he wants to bomb 3's everywhere). But hey, 14 shots through 3 quarters for a normal average player is probably well enough to be in a rhythm. lol
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PiPisKobesByatch
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 10:28 am    Post subject:

what's sad is that the lakers still gave up 53% shooting to the lowly magic and in the 60's for some stretches of the game.

this team is horrible defensively.. much worse than earlier on in the season.

the problem with this team is this:

-they struggle to score
-they jack up 3 point shots, and inevitably miss even wide open looks
-long rebounds lead to fastbreaks and easy points in transition
-the lakers get flustered because they're mentally weak sans kobe
-they sulk on defense
-get beat off the dribble for more easy points
-can't score because they're too mad/sad about defensive woes

and it's a repeating cycle.

this is how they get down by 15 within minutes after the start of the 3rd.

they can't score, and then compound the issue by playing pisspoor defense and allowing easy buckets.

jack haley alluded to this after the game, but when kobe is on his scoring binges and is aggressive offensively, it creates a buzz in the air, and it energizes the team on defense.

also, if he is attacking the paint and making drives, he is getting fouled which stops the clock and forces the opponent to bring the ball in out of bounds. when smush, luke, cook, odom shoot 3's, and they clang long.. the other team is streaking the other way with nobody to get back on d.

so at first, it doesn't make sense that kobe's offense would lead to better defense, but if you think about it .. it does.

the lakers' were defeating much better competition in january.. going 9-4.. because guys just had to worry about defense, and chip in on offense -- kobe took the offensive burden off their shoulders.

they beat the mavs twice in succession.. the 2nd best record in the nba.. twice.

can you imagine them doing that now? they're losing to the hornets, kings, boston, etc.. because they're "getting people involved."

well that is working against them right now, and the only way they can defeat good teams is with kobe scoring the ball.

i have rarely seen when kobe gets it going offensively, that the lakers DON'T build a lead or make a comeback. he intimidates the other team with his scoring binges.. it fires up the team defensively.

i think he is better at being a leader by scoring the ball, than by passing. a winning record against good teams on the road, compared to a losing record against poor teams at home... that isn't just coincidence.
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loyola66
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 11:00 am    Post subject:

i think january was special, i don't think its any indication of how this team SHOULD play to win, in fact, the one thing I really dig about Kobe's 81 in that month is that it sent a huge message throughout the league that Kobe is gonna get a lot of attention on the defensive end regardless, and now its time to milk that, meaning, kobe dishing it to an open cook,mihm,etc and nailing the open shot, etc and not kobe going for 60 every night, trust me your solution of Kobe carrying the majority of the offensive load from beginning to end and having the others concentrate on D is not a long term solution, its not a championship solution, will it win us a few more games against scrubs? maybe, but I wouldnt want my superstar to have to put that toll on his body just so we win a few more games. This is a team sport, the team thats gonna win the championship is gonna be the one with the best team game ie spurs, pistons, of course Kobe is special, but it doesnt mean the best way to win with him is him carrying that much of the offensive load, it's getting other guys to step it up, and Kobe putting it away, remember 2000-2003 dynasty? Kobe + Shaq? Kobe = closer
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kobekillinu2nite
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 11:07 am    Post subject:

loyola66 wrote:
i think january was special, i don't think its any indication of how this team SHOULD play to win, in fact, the one thing I really dig about Kobe's 81 in that month is that it sent a huge message throughout the league that Kobe is gonna get a lot of attention on the defensive end regardless, and now its time to milk that, meaning, kobe dishing it to an open cook,mihm,etc and nailing the open shot, etc and not kobe going for 60 every night, trust me your solution of Kobe carrying the majority of the offensive load from beginning to end and having the others concentrate on D is not a long term solution, its not a championship solution, will it win us a few more games against scrubs? maybe, but I wouldnt want my superstar to have to put that toll on his body just so we win a few more games. This is a team sport, the team thats gonna win the championship is gonna be the one with the best team game ie spurs, pistons, of course Kobe is special, but it doesnt mean the best way to win with him is him carrying that much of the offensive load, it's getting other guys to step it up, and Kobe putting it away, remember 2000-2003 dynasty? Kobe + Shaq? Kobe = closer


I agree in full. January proved Kobe's dominance. He let everyone know that he can kill anyone he wants on the court. Players are at his mercy
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 11:24 am    Post subject:

^PiP I agree about Kobe's offense leading to better team defense. It seems to me like the supporting cast is focusing on the offense more than the defense right now. That's the reason for the slump in February. They gave up an average of 108 points per game in the losses for that month.

I know Phil and Kobe came out after 81 and said that it's not a recipe for success and wouldn't work in the playoffs. Seems like they're trying to get everyone else caught up before the playoffs start. If times get rough and slip out of that 8th spot, I think we'll go back to seeing Kobe dominating on offense, and the rest of the guys focusing more on defense.

One good thing that has come out of Kobe being the facilitator is he seems more energized throughout the game. I know it sounds crazy because Kobe already plays with so much energy, but I've noticed in games where he's facilitating, he has his legs at the end of games. He also seems to be more active defensively, jumping into the passing lanes more often. I wonder how many steals he averaged in February.

Anyway, I think Phil and Kobe are trying to get other guys caught up in the offense right now. It seems like they have forgotten about the defense in the process. Hopefully one of these days, it'll all come together and click on both ends of the court.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 11:41 am    Post subject: Re: Hmm...WHAT HAVE I SAID? 1 st Half: Kobe the facilitator + 2nd Half Kobe the Dagger = Lakers Win

loyola66 wrote:
...well, I think Phil and the players might have read my post about Kobe facilitating in the first half and putting it away in the 2nd a few days ago....

cuz last night's game was like watching my whole plan/thoughts unfold almost to perfection...


I've been saying this exact same thing for about 3 years now.

Including my 8 months or so on LG.

Soda = Kobe

Loyola = Ray Allen in tights


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 11:47 am    Post subject:

This is the formula for every laker victory:

1rst half: Odom must get off to an agressive start + defensive intensity of team.

2nd half: Kobe takes over but the rest of the team cant be ballwatching and must keep moving on the offensive end.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 12:02 pm    Post subject:

Ziggy wrote:
^PiP I agree about Kobe's offense leading to better team defense. It seems to me like the supporting cast is focusing on the offense more than the defense right now. That's the reason for the slump in February. They gave up an average of 108 points per game in the losses for that month.

I know Phil and Kobe came out after 81 and said that it's not a recipe for success and wouldn't work in the playoffs. Seems like they're trying to get everyone else caught up before the playoffs start. If times get rough and slip out of that 8th spot, I think we'll go back to seeing Kobe dominating on offense, and the rest of the guys focusing more on defense.

One good thing that has come out of Kobe being the facilitator is he seems more energized throughout the game. I know it sounds crazy because Kobe already plays with so much energy, but I've noticed in games where he's facilitating, he has his legs at the end of games. He also seems to be more active defensively, jumping into the passing lanes more often. I wonder how many steals he averaged in February.

Anyway, I think Phil and Kobe are trying to get other guys caught up in the offense right now. It seems like they have forgotten about the defense in the process. Hopefully one of these days, it'll all come together and click on both ends of the court.


proof of this extra energy is in his ability to wreak havoc on the passing lanes and go from 20-somethign in steals to 8th within a 1 month span. he's forcing so many turnovers now, it's not even funny.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 12:04 pm    Post subject:

I think Phil must have been listening to me when I said to play Turiaf more. And to play Luke less. Way to go Phil.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 12:11 pm    Post subject:

[quote="LakerGreatNumber8"]Kobe acting Mamba all game long...Lakers 9-4 in January with Kobe averaging 40+.


This is the best formula IMO........I agree with the Kobe is in Strike/Attack mode philosophy...........

Very good points above........ I do see both sides......And think that Kobe "Pulling his game back" and becoming a facilitating decoy type will work down the road,a couple of years from now,with better talent around Kobe.....But not with this crew...........Sure he can play this role against certain opponents,as mentioned above,but you will not get the same results all the time against everyone......

To me when Kobe plays as he did in the 1st half yesterday you take the "SUPER" out of superstar.........yes he played well,a star type game in the 1st half,but the superstar that he is was lost......

Kobe is a scorer first and foremost,let him do his thing......Other teams want nothing more than getting the ball out of kobes hands,thats there plan when you see those doubles,triples,and traps......Why give them what they want.........Why lower his special capabilities,allow minutes of the game to go by using less talented players to do the scoring?let the scoring machine do his thing I say......

I agree that it is a balancing attack,and that Kobe has to pick and choose when to do what.....facilitating or strike mode......But for the most part with this current team at this stage,Kobe should be aggressive,and think score as his #1 priority.....He knows when to make them pay for those triples/traps etc,etc...pick his spots......

I think that 14 to 16 point 1st halfs are perfect,with 18+ or so in the 2nd,but the 8 point type halves are not a great thing,just look at last night for an example,lakers by 4.......everyone was getting into it,and excited,and look at the half time score-board....lakers by only 4.....

In a perfect World that formula will work where Kobe gets 30 a game and 10 assists,when he is surrounded with the contender type players of a true contender.....but with this team, Kobe needs to be the striker.....and from the first tip to the last shot......
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 12:56 pm    Post subject:

Won't work all the time unless there's a legit PG initiating. This is a problem with inconsistent play outside of Bryant.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 1:01 pm    Post subject:

Actually, in February as a facilitator and assassin in second half. We are only 5-8. As a scorer all throughout games in januarary we were 9-3. I think it's good to get everyone involved. But, when the team is struggling you got to come out with the assassin mentality. Otherwise we won't gain a lead. When we play from behind it's usually harder for us to win. Lack of confidence maybe?
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 1:21 pm    Post subject:

kobe being facilitator works when you play with Shaq, GP and Malone.

it becomes a disaster when you play with the current squad.

be aggressive.

it's the same reason why luke walton thrived during the shaq years.. he had so many players to pass to that could score consistently.. it made him look better than he was.

now look at him.. now that he has to create offense for himself, he looks like a terrible player.

before, people were praising him for his high basketball IQ and unselfishness and blah blah... he's the SAME EXACT PLAYER now that he was back then. but now that he has nobody to make him look good, he's absolute garbage.

same goes for kobe.. he could set them up for easy shots til the cows come home.. but they simply are incapable of scoring consistently.. so they will continue to make him, and the team record, look really bad.

so kobe's got to stay aggressive and be the scorer. nobody will make him "look good" no matter how great his passing is. so he's got to stay aggressive.

it's not the conventional way to win.. but with this team, it's an unfortunate necessity. as kobe says.. "it is what it is." nothing will change that. not coaching, not passing, not team meditation.. he's just got to understand that, and so does phil. he will wear himself out in the process, but that's the only way this team will win games against good teams.
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