Why all the talk of "Guest Workers" and "Path to Legalization"?

 
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re4ee
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2006 1:45 pm    Post subject: Why all the talk of "Guest Workers" and "Path to Legalization"?

Why are the bozos in WASH trying to "create" a "guest worker program" and a "path to legalization"? Don't those conditions already exist in current legislation?

Where I work, there are plenty of "guest workers", who have work visas (legally obtained) and who occasionally must return to their country of origin to renew them. Several have obtained green-cards (again, legally), and are going through a waiting period until they can apply for citizenship! With those paths already exist, why all this talk of "creating" new programs?

Is this all 'smoke & mirrors'?

And the claim that some want to "crimianlize" illegal immigrants, aren't they already "criminals"? The whole debate is hollow and disingenuous, and a total waste of time and tax $!
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2006 1:47 pm    Post subject:

I don't know! just watch 24 and all will be ok!
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2006 2:13 pm    Post subject:

the idea is to get people talking about this so you dont' pay attention to the issues you should really be paying attention to. and it's working.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2006 10:54 pm    Post subject:

da ocho wrote:
the idea is to get people talking about this so you dont' pay attention to the issues you should really be paying attention to. and it's working.


Couldn't disagree with you more on this. Illegal immigration is one issue that's directly impacting everyone, especially in the border states. You have hospitals losing tons of money and simply close the door on their emergency centers, you look at the schools that are jammed packed with kids who don't speak a word of english. Massive illegal immigration also destroys the wage strutures in a lot of industries. It's not just menial jobs like picking fruits that these activists want you to believe, look at construction, this used to be decent union jobs, now a days most of these are filled by illegals who's working for much less with little to no benefits. Allowing millions upon millions of poor people with no skill nor education into the country year after year is just insanity. Even the LA Times, with their open border ideaology admit that illegals are costing the state about 9 billion a year, and that's a very conservative figure.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2006 11:46 pm    Post subject:

Illegal aliens aside, with the borders so open that millions cross each year, I am wondering which city is going to get hit first.

A nuke or a dirty bomb, it's just a matter of time.

I think they prefer financial targets like NY or maybe Chicago but LA is so close to the southern border they may just settle for it.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 3:59 am    Post subject: Re: Why all the talk of "Guest Workers" and "Path to Legalization"?

re4ee wrote:
Why are the bozos in WASH trying to "create" a "guest worker program" and a "path to legalization"? Don't those conditions already exist in current legislation?


Simple, for votes. Both parties Democrats and Republicans are now trying to court immigrant votes. The immigrant population is exploding in the U.S. and it is vital to any politician to at least pay attention. It could make or break an election. For example, recent studies show that the Immigrant vote has been the deciding factor in all Democratic Presidents since JFK. In other words, w/o the Immigrant vote we would've had all Republican Presidents for the past 40+ years! Now the Republicans are catching on.

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Where I work, there are plenty of "guest workers", who have work visas (legally obtained) and who occasionally must return to their country of origin to renew them. Several have obtained green-cards (again, legally), and are going through a waiting period until they can apply for citizenship! With those paths already exist, why all this talk of "creating" new programs?


The difference is your co-workers are going through the LEGAL process, and the guest worker program is to assist people who are present in the U.S. illegally (or undocumented as some people like to say). And the reason for the guest worker program is stated above. What the politicians will say is they are already here and it is impossible to remove them all so we might as well make them legal.

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Is this all 'smoke & mirrors'?


Yes, that is exactly what it is.

Quote:
And the claim that some want to "crimianlize" illegal immigrants, aren't they already "criminals"? The whole debate is hollow and disingenuous, and a total waste of time and tax $!


Yes and No. That is a great question. Some consider it only a Civil penalty some consider it Criminal. But to make it absolutely clear Congress is proposing to make it a Felony to be here illegally, which would make it easier to deport and also easier for Local Law Enforcement to get involved to assist with the problem. The City of Costa Mesa is the first Local P.D. in the U.S. to train it's Officers' in Immigration Law, with the premise of eventually having them also enforce Immigration Law. This may lead to others and eventually most Local P.D.s doing this, which would help immensely in controlling this ever growing problem.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 4:04 am    Post subject:

DocK36 wrote:
da ocho wrote:
the idea is to get people talking about this so you dont' pay attention to the issues you should really be paying attention to. and it's working.


Couldn't disagree with you more on this. Illegal immigration is one issue that's directly impacting everyone, especially in the border states. You have hospitals losing tons of money and simply close the door on their emergency centers, you look at the schools that are jammed packed with kids who don't speak a word of english. Massive illegal immigration also destroys the wage strutures in a lot of industries. It's not just menial jobs like picking fruits that these activists want you to believe, look at construction, this used to be decent union jobs, now a days most of these are filled by illegals who's working for much less with little to no benefits. Allowing millions upon millions of poor people with no skill nor education into the country year after year is just insanity. Even the LA Times, with their open border ideaology admit that illegals are costing the state about 9 billion a year, and that's a very conservative figure.


A recent study by the Center of Immigration Studies have shown that ever working person in California has to fork out approximately $1150 per year to support illegal immigrants. That is $1150 every year by each and every working person in CA.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 4:09 am    Post subject:

lakersfreak wrote:
Illegal aliens aside, with the borders so open that millions cross each year, I am wondering which city is going to get hit first.

A nuke or a dirty bomb, it's just a matter of time.

I think they prefer financial targets like NY or maybe Chicago but LA is so close to the southern border they may just settle for it.


This is my biggest concern about our "Open Border". Yes, essentially we have an open border. Our Border Patrol, though well trained, are there solely as a Political Tool. They really aren't meant to protect our Homeland. It is not uncommon for BP Agent to arrest and remove the same alien 4-5 times in one day, before finally giving up. It is also estimated that roughly 10% of all illegals crossing the Southern Border are of Middle Eastern Decent. Take that for what you will.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 10:23 am    Post subject:

Yep, compare the Border Patrol to the Coast Guard. A Coast Guard Cutter has some serious weapons:

1 - MK75 76mm Gun (anti-air capable)
2 - 25mm Machine Guns
1 - MK15 20-mm Phalanx, Close-in weapons system (CIWS)
2 - 50 Cal. machine gun
12 - Super Rapid Blooming Offboard Chaff launchers

The average Brinks guard is more heavily armed than a Border Patrol agent.

They went way over board on passenger planes but left the border wide open.

I could not get on a plane to Denver with an eye glass screw driver. Can you imagine me whipping that thing out to try to take over a plane?

Unfortunately it's going to take an attack that came from across the border for the screwheads in charge to get serious.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 10:41 am    Post subject:

The Dagger wrote:
DocK36 wrote:
da ocho wrote:
the idea is to get people talking about this so you dont' pay attention to the issues you should really be paying attention to. and it's working.


Couldn't disagree with you more on this. Illegal immigration is one issue that's directly impacting everyone, especially in the border states. You have hospitals losing tons of money and simply close the door on their emergency centers, you look at the schools that are jammed packed with kids who don't speak a word of english. Massive illegal immigration also destroys the wage strutures in a lot of industries. It's not just menial jobs like picking fruits that these activists want you to believe, look at construction, this used to be decent union jobs, now a days most of these are filled by illegals who's working for much less with little to no benefits. Allowing millions upon millions of poor people with no skill nor education into the country year after year is just insanity. Even the LA Times, with their open border ideaology admit that illegals are costing the state about 9 billion a year, and that's a very conservative figure.


A recent study by the Center of Immigration Studies have shown that ever working person in California has to fork out approximately $1150 per year to support illegal immigrants. That is $1150 every year by each and every working person in CA.


Since I have nothing else to add to the excellent responses, I was wondering what are the other issues you speak of that they are trying to hide.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 11:00 am    Post subject:

Zhengi wrote:
The Dagger wrote:
DocK36 wrote:
da ocho wrote:
the idea is to get people talking about this so you dont' pay attention to the issues you should really be paying attention to. and it's working.


Couldn't disagree with you more on this. Illegal immigration is one issue that's directly impacting everyone, especially in the border states. You have hospitals losing tons of money and simply close the door on their emergency centers, you look at the schools that are jammed packed with kids who don't speak a word of english. Massive illegal immigration also destroys the wage strutures in a lot of industries. It's not just menial jobs like picking fruits that these activists want you to believe, look at construction, this used to be decent union jobs, now a days most of these are filled by illegals who's working for much less with little to no benefits. Allowing millions upon millions of poor people with no skill nor education into the country year after year is just insanity. Even the LA Times, with their open border ideaology admit that illegals are costing the state about 9 billion a year, and that's a very conservative figure.


A recent study by the Center of Immigration Studies have shown that ever working person in California has to fork out approximately $1150 per year to support illegal immigrants. That is $1150 every year by each and every working person in CA.


Since I have nothing else to add to the excellent responses, I was wondering what are the other issues you speak of that they are trying to hide.
Have you looked at the economy lately... gas prices, etc... Me and my brother-in-law we're having a talk about how things are in the decline right now just lastnight while comparing gas prices in town and well things for the futere arent looking too pretty... I'm no expert but there will be a recession soon, very soon!!!
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 11:02 am    Post subject:

Jesseca328 wrote:
Zhengi wrote:
The Dagger wrote:
DocK36 wrote:
da ocho wrote:
the idea is to get people talking about this so you dont' pay attention to the issues you should really be paying attention to. and it's working.


Couldn't disagree with you more on this. Illegal immigration is one issue that's directly impacting everyone, especially in the border states. You have hospitals losing tons of money and simply close the door on their emergency centers, you look at the schools that are jammed packed with kids who don't speak a word of english. Massive illegal immigration also destroys the wage strutures in a lot of industries. It's not just menial jobs like picking fruits that these activists want you to believe, look at construction, this used to be decent union jobs, now a days most of these are filled by illegals who's working for much less with little to no benefits. Allowing millions upon millions of poor people with no skill nor education into the country year after year is just insanity. Even the LA Times, with their open border ideaology admit that illegals are costing the state about 9 billion a year, and that's a very conservative figure.


A recent study by the Center of Immigration Studies have shown that ever working person in California has to fork out approximately $1150 per year to support illegal immigrants. That is $1150 every year by each and every working person in CA.


Since I have nothing else to add to the excellent responses, I was wondering what are the other issues you speak of that they are trying to hide.
Have you looked at the economy lately... gas prices, etc... Me and my brother-in-law we're having a talk about how things are in the decline right now just lastnight while comparing gas prices in town and well things for the futere arent looking too pretty... I'm no expert but there will be a recession soon, very soon!!!


So illegal immigrants aren't part of the economy and they have no effect upon it?

Gas prices are still being talked about. There's no way of hiding this issue. All you have to do is look around the corner and you'll see the price going up. So I don't understand how talking about illegal immigrants is going to hide this issue since everyone who can see will know what the issue is.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 11:05 am    Post subject:

how are we going to enforce this successfully? are we going to end up spending an ungodly amount of money in order to....not waste money on illegals? at least the majority of the illegals do a lot of the jobs that i'm sure all of you wouldn't want to do. if they are working for a number of years they should be able to become citizens. the cost of keeping all of them out will be astronomical and not worth the effort.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 11:26 am    Post subject:

da ocho wrote:
how are we going to enforce this successfully? are we going to end up spending an ungodly amount of money in order to....not waste money on illegals? at least the majority of the illegals do a lot of the jobs that i'm sure all of you wouldn't want to do. if they are working for a number of years they should be able to become citizens. the cost of keeping all of them out will be astronomical and not worth the effort.
Here's my problem with that, although I agree with you that enforcement poses HUGE logistical problems. You have a sub-culture that has managed to circumvent the LAW and enter the country contrary to the statutes that rule immigration. This sub-culture now feels that OTHER laws may be ignored, as well.

Want to convert a garage into a boarding house? We don' need no steenkin' PERMIT!
Want to drive a car? License? Insurance? Smog cert? What for?
Want to work, and "appear" legit? OK, get a fake SocSec card? Steal someone elses ID?
We had cockfights "in the old country"!
Whaddu mean I need a lisence and permit to sell FOOD ON THE STREET!

And on, and on. We've created an entire sub-populace of scoff-laws, who feel untouchable! It can only get worse.

Expensive, massive, inconvienient? Sure, but it just gets moreso each and every day.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 11:29 am    Post subject:

da ocho wrote:
at least the majority of the illegals do a lot of the jobs that i'm sure all of you wouldn't want to do.


Let's be clear on that talking point.

There are no jobs Americans won't do but there are wages Americans won't work for.

Coal mines are a lousy place to work but Americans will do it for a fair market wage.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 11:31 am    Post subject:

re4ee wrote:
da ocho wrote:
how are we going to enforce this successfully? are we going to end up spending an ungodly amount of money in order to....not waste money on illegals? at least the majority of the illegals do a lot of the jobs that i'm sure all of you wouldn't want to do. if they are working for a number of years they should be able to become citizens. the cost of keeping all of them out will be astronomical and not worth the effort.
Here's my problem with that, although I agree with you that enforcement poses HUGE logistical problems. You have a sub-culture that has managed to circumvent the LAW and enter the country contrary to the statutes that rule immigration. This sub-culture now feels that OTHER laws may be ignored, as well.

Want to convert a garage into a boarding house? We don' need no steenkin' PERMIT!
Want to drive a car? License? Insurance? Smog cert? What for?
Want to work, and "appear" legit? OK, get a fake SocSec card? Steal someone elses ID?
We had cockfights "in the old country"!
Whaddu mean I need a lisence and permit to sell FOOD ON THE STREET!

And on, and on. We've created an entire sub-populace of scoff-laws, who feel untouchable! It can only get worse.

Expensive, massive, inconvienient? Sure, but it just gets moreso each and every day.


of course in any large group of people there are going to be bad apples that break the law. but people who are citizens and were born here commit crimes at probably the same rate if not a more constant rate. the majority of illegals do not come here to break laws..they come to work, earn a living and have a better life.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 11:43 am    Post subject:

da ocho wrote:
how are we going to enforce this successfully? are we going to end up spending an ungodly amount of money in order to....not waste money on illegals? at least the majority of the illegals do a lot of the jobs that i'm sure all of you wouldn't want to do. if they are working for a number of years they should be able to become citizens. the cost of keeping all of them out will be astronomical and not worth the effort.


First things first, build a damn wall. None of this 700 ft long fence when it takes a longer fence than that to cover the entire border.

Secondly, it's not going to take much more money to enforce the laws that are already in place. If the law enforcement officers catch any illegals, set them up to be deported. In fact, the government might make more money. Currently, any employer that is found to have illegal immigrants working for them have to pay a fine of $10,000 per illegal immigrant. Enforce the current laws and make money off those businesses that hire illegals.

Lastly, it's going to cost more to keep the illegals. Hospitals, schools, jails, social services, etc. That's money out of tax payers to pay for people who shouldn't even be here. Plus, if someone tells you that illegals pay taxes, they are flat out lying to your face as it's only a half truth. They pay taxes, but they receive more benefits from the government and perhaps even receive a tax refund that negates all the taxes they paid. So they benefit more than they contribute to our society.

Also, as a poster above pointed out, Americans will do the jobs if the wage is fair. What's wrong with asking for a living wage? Are you really saying that in the entire history of the US that no American has ever been willing to do farm work? That none of them have been willing to wash dishes, cook, etc.? Even if these jobs need to be done, we don't need the illegals doing them. Mechanize everything. Build machines that harvest crops. Build machines to wash the dishes, etc. There is absolutely zero value to having illegals in this country and the only thing they do is saturate the work pool with more workers, keeps everyone's wages down, and lowers everyone's standard of living.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 11:44 am    Post subject:

da ocho wrote:
re4ee wrote:
da ocho wrote:
how are we going to enforce this successfully? are we going to end up spending an ungodly amount of money in order to....not waste money on illegals? at least the majority of the illegals do a lot of the jobs that i'm sure all of you wouldn't want to do. if they are working for a number of years they should be able to become citizens. the cost of keeping all of them out will be astronomical and not worth the effort.
Here's my problem with that, although I agree with you that enforcement poses HUGE logistical problems. You have a sub-culture that has managed to circumvent the LAW and enter the country contrary to the statutes that rule immigration. This sub-culture now feels that OTHER laws may be ignored, as well.

Want to convert a garage into a boarding house? We don' need no steenkin' PERMIT!
Want to drive a car? License? Insurance? Smog cert? What for?
Want to work, and "appear" legit? OK, get a fake SocSec card? Steal someone elses ID?
We had cockfights "in the old country"!
Whaddu mean I need a lisence and permit to sell FOOD ON THE STREET!

And on, and on. We've created an entire sub-populace of scoff-laws, who feel untouchable! It can only get worse.

Expensive, massive, inconvienient? Sure, but it just gets moreso each and every day.


of course in any large group of people there are going to be bad apples that break the law. but people who are citizens and were born here commit crimes at probably the same rate if not a more constant rate. the majority of illegals do not come here to break laws..they come to work, earn a living and have a better life.


100% of illegals have already broken the law by illegally coming into this country.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 11:45 am    Post subject:

lakersfreak wrote:
da ocho wrote:
at least the majority of the illegals do a lot of the jobs that i'm sure all of you wouldn't want to do.


Let's be clear on that talking point.

There are no jobs Americans won't do but there are wages Americans won't work for.

Coal mines are a lousy place to work but Americans will do it for a fair market wage.

exactly

sure everybody wants an opportunity at a high quality of life but there is no possible way you can help everyone get that
at some point you need to divert greater attention to yourself, your family, you country and sadly this point has already been exceeded by the USA
we are already saturated in population and job availability

just as you can be a concerned person about others in poverty, doing volunteer work and donating or whatever, you are not going to freely invite every homeless person to live in your house

and then the largest immigrating demographic group that comes to america illegally is not even the most poorest/persecuted people in the world

i say its time to close the borders in the most realistic way possible and slow down illegal immigration, let the illegals in here become citizens if they meet a certain requierements, then after a deadline start deporting illegals back more strickly if caught in the USA... while still fostering legal immigration
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 12:04 pm    Post subject:

I for one would like to see people from real hell holes like Sudan get a chance to legally immigrate here.

One thing I find facinating about the current illegal immigration debate is how irrate legal immigrants and their descendants are about this issue.

I have friends who came here legally as children or were born here by parents who came here legally from Mexico, Panama, Puerto Rico, etc..

They seem to be more pissed off about illegal immiration than the average white, corn fed American because they know what it took to do it legally.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 6:52 am    Post subject:

Take the illegals back and don't let illegals who have kids that are born in the US become a citizen. They should be a citizen of whatever country the mother is.

That will open those jobs that Americans supposedly won't do, and give opportunities for those who want to work. I'm sure a lot of people will work when given a chance.

We also need to make government assistance minimal since so many jobs would be available, there shouldnt be a reason not to have a job if all the the jobs held by illegals are available.

We should end up with a demand for labor and that will thus increase competition and wages for that low paying labor, ending with an increase in overall minimum wage.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 6:56 am    Post subject:

Zhengi wrote:
100% of illegals have already broken the law by illegally coming into this country.


This is one of those things that obscures this debate. Why is crossing the border the only crime that permanently labels one a criminal? Have you never broken any law ever? No speeding? No jaywalking? No misdemeanors committed regardless of being caught? Do you know anyone who hasn't?
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 8:25 am    Post subject:

da ocho wrote:
the idea is to get people talking about this so you dont' pay attention to the issues you should really be paying attention to. and it's working.


There's some great dialogue on this thread and good valid points from both sides. The thing that gets me is how our country can spend billions and trillions fighting ghost fighters and finding invisible weapons on bad intelligence in some country we weren't supposed to be in, in the first place, and here we are complaining about the cost of illegal immigrants. Last I checked, we've spent about about 275 billion on this war of errors. Since some numbers were put out there on the cost of an illegal in California, let me put out there that it's costing $2,800 per EVERY household in the entire U.S to fight a war on 'bad intelligence'.

I'm not trying to dispute anyone's point here, I'm just trying to get across that you have to pick and choose your battles. If you ask me, which is a bigger problem, illegals or our men and women dying for a causeless war in the mideast, you know what my answer is. Believe it or not, the impact that illegals have caused is minute in terms of some of the other costs that our Government is incurring on a daily basis. And believe it or not, I know of a number of businesses that would not be where they are today without the help of 'undocumenteed immigrants'.

My parents got here the legal way 30 years ago and I can't agree more with the fact that you should get here fair and square. What's disturbing is to see the xenophobic approach and scapegoating a number of people go through when this particular topic comes up.

Just my 2 cents...
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 9:27 am    Post subject:

We're not a political board and its been stated more than once.
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