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| Who is the better player in their twilight years? |
| Kareem |
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94% |
[ 50 ] |
| Shaq |
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5% |
[ 3 ] |
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| Total Votes : 53 |
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Billy Thompson
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Location: Anaheim, CA
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 Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 3:03 pm Post subject: Comparison of career declines: Shaq vs. Kareem |
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It's been official for some time now: Shaq has been in decline since his monster year in 2000.
The question is, how effective is he compared to Kareem in his last years? Let's look at how they stack up against each other.
Conditioning - "Cap" was never known to show up to training camp overweight. Because of his great conditioning, Kareem was able to play just about the entire season without injury into his 40's. On the other hand, Shaq has had nagging injuries typical of poor conditioning since his MVP year in 2000. Winner: Kareem
Veteran Savvy - when players are in decline, their craftiness takes over. They know how to draw certain fouls, get more out of teamates, play mind games with youngsters, etc. Even at age 42, Kareem could draw fouls at crucial game moments and would take advantage by hitting clutch free throws. In contrast, Shaq has avoided getting the ball in cruical situations due to his poor free throwing ability even in his prime. Winner: Kareem
Leadership - Shaq has never been known to be a locker room presence when times are tough. He often would take shots at teamates through the media and insist that struggles are always the result of not getting him the ball. Kareem's leadership would be most evident after the Memorial Day Masecre in 1985 when he would take a tounge-lashing from Pat Riley. He took the verbal abuse in front of his team and ended up responding in Game 2. Winner: Kareem
Although I'm not anti-Shaq, I really have trouble finding a single category where Shaq would be prefered over Kareem. Help? |
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frijolero01
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Joined: 10 May 2005
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| Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 9:27 am Post subject: |
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If I may add one..
Acknowledgement: Cap knew his career was in decline and gladly handed the team and the spotlight over to Magic Johnson. Kobe's career really started to take off quickly while shaq's was starting to decline. He still insisted that it was his team. Winner: Kareem again.
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hig
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Joined: 31 Oct 2001
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Location: Suckramento
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| Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 10:23 am Post subject: |
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Is there really any debate?? I mean ...really.
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vkewalra
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Joined: 23 Jun 2005
Posts: 1722
Location: Chicago, IL
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| Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 12:18 pm Post subject: |
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| frijolero01 wrote: | If I may add one..
Acknowledgement: Cap knew his career was in decline and gladly handed the team and the spotlight over to Magic Johnson. Kobe's career really started to take off quickly while shaq's was starting to decline. He still insisted that it was his team. Winner: Kareem again. |
Another way to put that Humility, shaq has absolutely none of that. |
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Zhengi
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Joined: 06 Sep 2004
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| Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 12:47 pm Post subject: |
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Pretty sad that Snaq got one sympathy vote.
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32tapout
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Posts: 825
Location: Back in the LBC!
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| Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 1:39 pm Post subject: |
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| frijolero01 wrote: | If I may add one..
Acknowledgement: Cap knew his career was in decline and gladly handed the team and the spotlight over to Magic Johnson. Kobe's career really started to take off quickly while shaq's was starting to decline. He still insisted that it was his team. Winner: Kareem again. |
Exactly. People forget that Kareem and Magic were the best of friends on the court during their playing days but they put their egos aside for a common goal and that was to win championships. Kareem was a 6 time MVP in the league and still knew when to take a step back for Magic and even Big Games James in the mid to late 80's. There is no doubt Kareem is the winner here.
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Lakers5150
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| Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 2:04 pm Post subject: |
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Oh no question Kareem. Even at the end, at age 41 he could still be relied on to hit the occassional sky hook. About all you can count on Shaq for is 1-15 from the line and a free dozen donut of the month club card.
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Lakers 71-72
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| Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 2:04 pm Post subject: |
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It was either before the `87 or`88 season Kareem bulked up in the weight room. He came into camp at 275. His listed playing weight was always 235.
I know Shaq lost 60 lbs. But he was doing it out of spite. Kareem was doing it to improve his game. |
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Billy Thompson
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| Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 3:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Zhengi wrote: | | Pretty sad that Snaq got one sympathy vote. |
I think someone accidently clicked the wrong option. 
I think Cap was missed sorely when we lost without him in the 1990 playoffs. By the time we were eliminated by the Suns, players were getting sick of Riley's perfectionist ways and started fighting amongst themselves.
Although Magic was the official "leader" later on, he was still seen by Coop and B. Scott as a peer. On the other hand, Cap wasn't seen as a peer ever.
Either way, it still moved me how Cap sat on the Laker bench during the pivotal game 5 against the Suns. How many players do you know would sit on the bench after they retired to cheer their former mates on?? Additionally, he traveled across the country to attend Magic's press conference when he anounced he had HIV.
I could never see Shaq doing those things. :roll:
It didn't matter. Cap showed his class, Magic went off for over 40 points a game, the Lakers lost, and Riles got the axe.
End of Showtime.  |
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MIMLaker
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| Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 7:16 pm Post subject: |
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Folks, this is why people have been saying Shaq is not as skilled as everyone says he is, for so many years.
He is STRONG.
He is AGILE -- incredibly so for a man his height and size and mass.
He has SKILLS -- yes, he does.
But when the body goes, when the legs are not as quick, when the calves cannot explode like they used to, when the veteran players and refs and coaches learn to adapt to your new, exciting, surprising skills, what do you have left? When the gap between your power and speed and strength and thsoe of the competition is not as enormously wide as before, what do you have left?
Skill.
Finesse.
Touch.
Guile.
Savvy.
FUNDAMENTALS.
All things Shaq never developed as well as many thought he should.
It's similar to a kid who has it easy in school all through high school, but starts struggling in college once he has to learn how to work hard, study diligently, and LEARN in a place where everyone already seems to know how to work hard.
It's at that time the gifted, precocious kid has to grow up and be an adult.
Shaq's turn looks to be coming up very soon. he is still better than 90% of the bgis in the league. He may yet flip his own switch, rededicate hismelf and come up with 4-5 more eyars of solid, 20-10 ball.
Or not.
MIM
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MIMLaker
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Joined: 18 Jul 2001
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| Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 7:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Mark Hurlbarf, Esq. wrote: | It was either before the `87 or`88 season Kareem bulked up in the weight room. He came into camp at 275. His listed playing weight was always 235.
I know Shaq lost 60 lbs. But he was doing it out of spite. Kareem was doing it to improve his game. |
Minor correction -- he actually bulked up to 265 in the summer of '86 (i.e. '87 camp), but with 4% body fat. Most of it came from weight training and yoga, and Kareem was noticeably bigger in the legs. He supposedly did that to help keep balance against banging from post guys like Olajuwon, Sampson, and McHale, and also improve his endurance.
Also, by that point, he had been playing 5-6 years at 245-250, but you are fundamentally right.
Out of UCLA, he came in at 235, and he was listed at that for a LONG while.
MIM
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Sonicc64
Star Player
Joined: 19 Jul 2003
Posts: 4028
Location: Delaware
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| Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 7:28 pm Post subject: |
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| MIMLaker wrote: | Folks, this is why people have been saying Shaq is not as skilled as everyone says he is, for so many years.
He is STRONG.
He is AGILE -- incredibly so for a man his height and size and mass.
He has SKILLS -- yes, he does.
But when the body goes, when the legs are not as quick, when the calves cannot explode like they used to, when the veteran players and refs and coaches learn to adapt to your new, exciting, surprising skills, what do you have left? When the gap between your power and speed and strength and thsoe of the competition is not as enormously wide as before, what do you have left?
Skill.
Finesse.
Touch.
Guile.
Savvy.
FUNDAMENTALS.
All things Shaq never developed as well as many thought he should.
It's similar to a kid who has it easy in school all through high school, but starts struggling in college once he has to learn how to work hard, study diligently, and LEARN in a place where everyone already seems to know how to work hard.
It's at that time the gifted, precocious kid has to grow up and be an adult.
Shaq's turn looks to be coming up very soon. he is still better than 90% of the bgis in the league. He may yet flip his own switch, rededicate hismelf and come up with 4-5 more eyars of solid, 20-10 ball.
Or not.
MIM |
lets just say NOT, and call it a day.
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12345
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Joined: 29 Apr 2006
Posts: 13
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| Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 11:55 pm Post subject: |
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A declining Kareem can still go. A declining Snaq got owned by Dampier for 3 games (and counting).
$100m contract for 5 years = 5 pts @ game 2 =  |
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Raptor2k
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| Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 12:12 am Post subject: |
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| Mark Hurlbarf, Esq. wrote: | It was either before the `87 or`88 season Kareem bulked up in the weight room. He came into camp at 275. His listed playing weight was always 235.
I know Shaq lost 60 lbs. But he was doing it out of spite. Kareem was doing it to improve his game. |
60? Didn't think it was that much.
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The Mike
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| Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 12:36 am Post subject: |
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I agree with that overall Kareem was more effective, but to Shaq's defense I think he is expected to carry more of a load on his team than Kareem, at least compared to the last few years. Though at comparative ages Kareem will probably have him in this as well.
Also, when Kareem's career was ending he was not considered the best center current playing, as the young breed of Dream, Ewing, & co. had suprassed him. Where as Shaq also carries that spot light as the best center playing due to the weakness of the position. So there is more of a spotlight to his performances.
Though if Yoa plays next season like he did towards the end of this season, that will be taken away from Shaq as well.
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MIMLaker
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| Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 6:24 am Post subject: |
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| The Mike wrote: | I agree with that overall Kareem was more effective, but to Shaq's defense I think he is expected to carry more of a load on his team than Kareem, at least compared to the last few years. Though at comparative ages Kareem will probably have him in this as well.
Also, when Kareem's career was ending he was not considered the best center current playing, as the young breed of Dream, Ewing, & co. had suprassed him. Where as Shaq also carries that spot light as the best center playing due to the weakness of the position. So there is more of a spotlight to his performances.
Though if Yoa plays next season like he did towards the end of this season, that will be taken away from Shaq as well. |
Slight disagreement there. IIRC, it wasn't until the 1986 playoffs that Akeem (before the "H") was widely considered to have actually surpassed Kareem. After all, the Rockets did beat the Lakers head-on that year.  Still, everyone figured Akeem had the ptoential to be the enxt great big guy.
Indeed, even with Ewing as the #1 pick in 1985, Kareem was still the top dog, or close to it, in the center spot. Hard to say he was "surpassed" by a company of centers at that point.
In the 1984-85 regular season, Hakeem's first in the league:
Kareem (age 37) -- 22.0 pts/ 7.9 rebs/ 2.05 blks
Akeem -- 20.6 pts/ 11.9 rebs/ 2.68 blks
Then, the '85-'86 season, Ewing's first:
Kareem (age 38) -- 23.4 pts/ 6.1 rebs/ 1.65 blks
Akeem -- 23.5 pts/ 11.5 rebs/ 3.4 blks
Ewing -- 20.0 pts/ 9.0 rebs/ 2.06 blks
Mike, you are right in that Kareem had been passed by other centers by the time he retired. No argument there. I only bring up Kareem's performance because Shaq has about FOUR YEARS left on this deal. With kareem retiring after the 1989 playoffs, this seemed as appropriate a place as any to draw the comparison.
Assuming this IS Shaq's last contract, he's clearly declining, and declining hard. At age 34, here's what Shaq and Kareem's season stats looked like:
Kareem -- 26.2 pts/ 10.3 rebs/ 2.85 blks
Shaq -- 20.02 pts/ 9.17 rebs/ 1.76 blks
Not good for the "MDE."
MIM
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Billy Thompson
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| Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 8:06 am Post subject: |
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| MIMLaker wrote: | Kareem -- 26.2 pts/ 10.3 rebs/ 2.85 blks
Shaq -- 20.02 pts/ 9.17 rebs/ 1.76 blks
Not good for the "MDE."
MIM |
Very good points and numbers to back up your statements.
On the offensive end, Kareem also had two HUGE advantages:
1. The Skyhook - even with Cap's strength and conditioning declining, he could get pushed out of the paint all night and still be able to nail a skyhook. One of the great advantages of having this move as his "bread and butter" was that he didn't have to expend much energy to get in position and flip the ball up.
It was music to my ears to hear Chick say, "Swing left, shoot right."
On the other hand, Shaq's bread-and-butter play is to power down his opponent where he's close enough to the basket where he could either dunk it or flip up a hook shot. The huge disadvantage to this move is he expends a huge amount of energy and has a high risk of committing an offensive foul. It would make my stomach turn to see us waste the entire 24-second clock a few years ago so Shaq can finally set himself up down low just for him to get fouled. After being fouled, he'd brick 2 free throws. :roll:
2. Magic Johnson - having the best post-entry passer of all time helped tremendously. At 6'9", Magic would dump the ball into Cap as easy as passing someone the sugar at the table. You rarely heard Cap complain of "not getting enought touches."  Ever.
In Shaq's defense, he NEVER had this luxury. I estimate that if he played with Johnson, he could have easily averaged 5-8 more points per night. However, I have my doubts Magic would be able to put up with Shaq's laziness. |
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MIMLaker
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| Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 8:51 am Post subject: |
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Thanks. Nice points yourself, Billy.
| Billy Thompson wrote: |
2. Magic Johnson - having the best post-entry passer of all time helped tremendously. At 6'9", Magic would dump the ball into Cap as easy as passing someone the sugar at the table. You rarely heard Cap complain of "not getting enought touches." Ever.
In Shaq's defense, he NEVER had this luxury. I estimate that if he played with Johnson, he could have easily averaged 5-8 more points per night. However, I have my doubts Magic would be able to put up with Shaq's laziness. |
One slight adjustment to this:
Shaq never had a HOF, 6'9" PG passing into him, but he did have...
Harper (6-6)
Fox (6-7)
Shaw (6-6)
... and, um, who was the guy that who got the majority of his assists during the championship years by passing them into Shaq? IIRC, it was the same guy that led the team in assists strictly TO Shaq in the playoffs...
Oh yeah.
It was Kobe (6-7). 
MIM
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hig
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| Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 9:02 am Post subject: |
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Kareem could hit his freethrows.
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BigGameYimmy
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Location: San Diego
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| Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 10:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Basketball is a team sport...Shaq will NEVER be the teammate Kareem was. Maybe a 'cool dude' to party and hang out with after games but not on the court. Kareem was the epitome of professionalism, just like Magic, just like Kobe (SO unlike Shaq), and that is what puts him leaps and bounds over Shaq. It's too bad, because Shaq certainly had the 'raw tools' to be the greatest ever at the C spot and looked like it (at least in 2000). If Shaq worked his @ss off like Kobe does and kept in 2000 form, then I imagine Kobe would defer to him (or hell we'd just rather still have Shaq!). |
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Vancouver Fan
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Joined: 17 Apr 2006
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| Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 11:14 pm Post subject: |
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why take a poll when the answer is so obvious......kareem hands down...and for the 3 peeps that voted shaq :roll:
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