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Dreamshake
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 Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 12:23 pm Post subject: |
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| 24 wrote: | | OTOH, Howard's team is winning at a lesser pace than the injury plagued Lakers did with him over the last 40 games of last season (67% vs 70%)... |
If only the season were just 40 games.  |
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 2:10 pm Post subject: |
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That's a funny piece, but not intentionally. The first sentence tells us that ESPN brought us PER, which is wrong. The rest of the piece tells us that ESPN didn't release the methodology. I posted the same comment in the thread on RPM a week ago. It took me a couple minutes to make this observation, but this guy acts like it is delivered wisdom from heaven. Then he twists around a tweet by Pelton in a petty effort to bolster his point.
The guy seems jealous that some other statistical method is getting attention. Boo hoo. |
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ribeye
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| Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 3:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: |
That's a funny piece, but not intentionally. The first sentence tells us that ESPN brought us PER, which is wrong. The rest of the piece tells us that ESPN didn't release the methodology. I posted the same comment in the thread on RPM a week ago. It took me a couple minutes to make this observation, but this guy acts like it is delivered wisdom from heaven. Then he twists around a tweet by Pelton in a petty effort to bolster his point.
The guy seems jealous that some other statistical method is getting attention. Boo hoo. |
You've been quite the grumpy ol' contrarian lately.
This article, as least as I read it, was for the masses. ESPN did provide the mass exposure of PER, as as they are now doing with Engelmann's RAPM, that has been around several years, at least. For those who wanted to get caught up with all the articles on advanced +/-, this was a good primer. Remember the same thread in which your wisdom was shared, this "new" concept appeared to be a revelation for many.
Has everyone been walking across your lawn lately?
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Steve007
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| Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 2:08 am Post subject: |
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| ribeye wrote: | | Steve007 wrote: | | Also ranking Jordan that high is like saying he is better than players like Dwight Howard and Marc Gasol. Is Jordan the best center in the game? I've never seen anyone mention him in that type of a discussion before. |
I wouldn't make that comment, but I would say he had a better season.
Jordan beats or equals Howard in all the major categories except points. Here, Howard shoots more, but is less efficient at it, shooting .594 to .675.
When you look further, Howard's 73.4% from 0-3' is nearly identical compared to Jordan's 71.7%, but he gets more touches inside--maybe a factor of not having a Griffin, who shoots 40% of his shoots from 0-3'. When these guys begin to depart is in the 3-10' range, where Howard gets over 40% of his shots, but here, he shoots 40.6% to Jordan's 47.7%.
Marc has not had the season, in part due to injury, as he did last year. |
When Griffin goes out of the game, the Clippers don't go to Jordan. He isn't a threat even when he posts up (the idea of teams double teaming him constantly is laughable) and he isn't a threat when he faces the basket either. His points are mostly off of putbacks and lobs. Furthermore, when he does shoot jumpers, he shoots them because he is incredibly wide open, and even then I've seen him look reluctant to shoot them.
Those stats say nothing about the defensive attention Jordan gets compared to Howard, they say nothing about the times when Blake Griffin draws the better post defender (making it easier for Jordan), and I think it's also worth mentioning that Jordan is only the 6th highest scorer on the Clippers. His scoring average is barely higher than Matt Barnes average. Moreover, Jordan is 8th on the team in field goal attempts per game. Even some of the bench players shoot more often than he does.
That's why I'm not impressed by some of his numbers. If he was that good of an offensive player, the Clippers would make him a much bigger part of the offense. |
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vkewalra
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Joined: 23 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 4:56 am Post subject: |
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By a definition of who has the most impact on their team it's Noah, easy. I"m not sure I've ever seen a team take on a player's personality so strongly and be so elevated following the example of a player. That said it's all about who's image the NBA MVP voters wants to portray and there are solid arguments that can be made for Durant and James who look a lot better as the league's poster boys.
Back to the Bulls, that team should stink, but they're a threat to beat anybody on any night and I strongly believe could have taken out the Heat last year if Lebron didn't get a significant amount of referee love in close late situations (and somebody didn't horribly botch Deng's spinal tap). |
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 5:07 am Post subject: |
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| ribeye wrote: | | You've been quite the grumpy ol' contrarian lately. |
I'm the contrarian here? No, sorry, but you have that backwards. |
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ribeye
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| Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 6:04 am Post subject: |
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| Steve007 wrote: | | ribeye wrote: | | Steve007 wrote: | | Also ranking Jordan that high is like saying he is better than players like Dwight Howard and Marc Gasol. Is Jordan the best center in the game? I've never seen anyone mention him in that type of a discussion before. |
I wouldn't make that comment, but I would say he had a better season.
Jordan beats or equals Howard in all the major categories except points. Here, Howard shoots more, but is less efficient at it, shooting .594 to .675.
When you look further, Howard's 73.4% from 0-3' is nearly identical compared to Jordan's 71.7%, but he gets more touches inside--maybe a factor of not having a Griffin, who shoots 40% of his shoots from 0-3'. When these guys begin to depart is in the 3-10' range, where Howard gets over 40% of his shots, but here, he shoots 40.6% to Jordan's 47.7%.
Marc has not had the season, in part due to injury, as he did last year. |
When Griffin goes out of the game, the Clippers don't go to Jordan. He isn't a threat even when he posts up (the idea of teams double teaming him constantly is laughable) and he isn't a threat when he faces the basket either. His points are mostly off of putbacks and lobs. Furthermore, when he does shoot jumpers, he shoots them because he is incredibly wide open, and even then I've seen him look reluctant to shoot them.
Those stats say nothing about the defensive attention Jordan gets compared to Howard, they say nothing about the times when Blake Griffin draws the better post defender (making it easier for Jordan), and I think it's also worth mentioning that Jordan is only the 6th highest scorer on the Clippers. His scoring average is barely higher than Matt Barnes average. Moreover, Jordan is 8th on the team in field goal attempts per game. Even some of the bench players shoot more often than he does.
That's why I'm not impressed by some of his numbers. If he was that good of an offensive player, the Clippers would make him a much bigger part of the offense. |
I guess this comes down to how we view the position of center. Generally, unless you've got that Wilt or Kareem or Shaq or Olajuwon, I see the center as playing a specific role and as a defensive presence--especially today. Jordan is playing the Tyson Chandler role on that Dallas team. Not big scoring numbers, but without him, they were going nowhere. Jordan is not an elite defender, yet, but this year I don't know of any starting center who could be considered an elite defender, though Noah is close. Duncan is still incredible but not elite any more.
Think of Bynum vs Jordan. To me, I wish Bynum would have played more of the role that Jordan does, focusing on the defensive and rebounding, deferring to the other big man on the team more. With Griffin, it only makes sense to give him the most touches. That is smart basketball. Bynum put up better numbers than does Jordan this season, but, if he had played the game like Jax wanted, or, more like Jordan, understanding his role, team first, setting screens, positioning for rebounds, working with Gasol, moving around the post and not just holding his hand out demanding the ball, the team would have been better.
I happen to think, this Jordan on that Laker team, would have been a perfect fit--just as it seems to be on his current team.
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Dreamshake
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| Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 7:37 am Post subject: |
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| ribeye wrote: | | Steve007 wrote: | | ribeye wrote: | | Steve007 wrote: | | Also ranking Jordan that high is like saying he is better than players like Dwight Howard and Marc Gasol. Is Jordan the best center in the game? I've never seen anyone mention him in that type of a discussion before. |
I wouldn't make that comment, but I would say he had a better season.
Jordan beats or equals Howard in all the major categories except points. Here, Howard shoots more, but is less efficient at it, shooting .594 to .675.
When you look further, Howard's 73.4% from 0-3' is nearly identical compared to Jordan's 71.7%, but he gets more touches inside--maybe a factor of not having a Griffin, who shoots 40% of his shoots from 0-3'. When these guys begin to depart is in the 3-10' range, where Howard gets over 40% of his shots, but here, he shoots 40.6% to Jordan's 47.7%.
Marc has not had the season, in part due to injury, as he did last year. |
When Griffin goes out of the game, the Clippers don't go to Jordan. He isn't a threat even when he posts up (the idea of teams double teaming him constantly is laughable) and he isn't a threat when he faces the basket either. His points are mostly off of putbacks and lobs. Furthermore, when he does shoot jumpers, he shoots them because he is incredibly wide open, and even then I've seen him look reluctant to shoot them.
Those stats say nothing about the defensive attention Jordan gets compared to Howard, they say nothing about the times when Blake Griffin draws the better post defender (making it easier for Jordan), and I think it's also worth mentioning that Jordan is only the 6th highest scorer on the Clippers. His scoring average is barely higher than Matt Barnes average. Moreover, Jordan is 8th on the team in field goal attempts per game. Even some of the bench players shoot more often than he does.
That's why I'm not impressed by some of his numbers. If he was that good of an offensive player, the Clippers would make him a much bigger part of the offense. |
I guess this comes down to how we view the position of center. Generally, unless you've got that Wilt or Kareem or Shaq or Olajuwon, I see the center as playing a specific role and as a defensive presence--especially today. Jordan is playing the Tyson Chandler role on that Dallas team. Not big scoring numbers, but without him, they were going nowhere. Jordan is not an elite defender, yet, but this year I don't know of any starting center who could be considered an elite defender, though Noah is close. Duncan is still incredible but not elite any more.
Think of Bynum vs Jordan. To me, I wish Bynum would have played more of the role that Jordan does, focusing on the defensive and rebounding, deferring to the other big man on the team more. With Griffin, it only makes sense to give him the most touches. That is smart basketball. Bynum put up better numbers than does Jordan this season, but, if he had played the game like Jax wanted, or, more like Jordan, understanding his role, team first, setting screens, positioning for rebounds, working with Gasol, moving around the post and not just holding his hand out demanding the ball, the team would have been better.
I happen to think, this Jordan on that Laker team, would have been a perfect fit--just as it seems to be on his current team. |
The position of center, or any player on the court, is to make a impact. That impact can come offensively, defensively, or both. You would not prefer the C that can make an impact on both sides (Howard) as opposed to the one who only makes an impact on one side (Jordan)? I could see this argument if Jordan were an all-time great defensively, but he isn't.
I think if teams got a choice they would happily take Howard over Jordan due to the offensive differences between the two. |
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ribeye
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| Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 8:22 am Post subject: |
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| Dreamshake wrote: |
I think if teams got a choice they would happily take Howard over Jordan due to the offensive differences between the two. |
As would most reasonable people, including myself. Howard has a history that Jordan does not. This does not mean that Howard had the better season. After next season, if Howard has not progressed or returned to what he once was, and if Jordan continues his progression, I might have another opinion.
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ribeye
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| Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 8:24 am Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | ribeye wrote: | | You've been quite the grumpy ol' contrarian lately. |
I'm the contrarian here? No, sorry, but you have that backwards. |
I can be the contrarian indeed. I'm just not the grumpy one.
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