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Will pau have his jersey hanging from the rafters one day?
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kikanga
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Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 9:47 am Post subject:

Of course! All nba hall of famers get their jersey retired

greenfrog
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Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 10:17 am Post subject:

kikanga wrote:

Of course! All nba hall of famers get their jersey retired

not MacAdoo. he's a HoFer and was as good as odom was for us.

Last edited by greenfrog on Tue Apr 22, 2014 10:31 am; edited 1 time in total

saacman5033
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Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 10:30 am Post subject:

greenfrog wrote:

kikanga wrote:

Of course! All nba hall of famers get their jersey retired

not MacAdoo. he's a HoFer and was as good odom was for us.

I wouldn't go that far. He was a good piece for us, but not as good as Odom nor as crucial to our success.

activeverb
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Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 10:31 am Post subject:

greenfrog wrote:

kikanga wrote:

Of course! All nba hall of famers get their jersey retired

not MacAdoo. he's a HoFer and was as good odom was for us.

I'd say the criteria is you get your jersey retired if you get into the Hall and your play with the Laker was the main or very important reason you got into the Hall.

McAdoo really earned his place in the Hall for what he did for other teams. He was an MVP, 5-time all-star and 3-time scoring leader.

There are lots of Hall of Famers who played for the Lakers but didn't get their jersey retired - Dantley, Karl Malone, Gary Payton, Mitch Richmond, Dennis Rodman, Connie Hawkins.

Last edited by activeverb on Tue Apr 22, 2014 10:34 am; edited 1 time in total

greenfrog
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Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 10:33 am Post subject:

saacman5033 wrote:

greenfrog wrote:

kikanga wrote:

Of course! All nba hall of famers get their jersey retired

not MacAdoo. he's a HoFer and was as good odom was for us.

I wouldn't go that far. He was a good piece for us, but not as good as Odom nor as crucial to our success.

it was possible to have more good players back then.

greenfrog
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Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 10:34 am Post subject:

activeverb wrote:

greenfrog wrote:

kikanga wrote:

Of course! All nba hall of famers get their jersey retired

not MacAdoo. he's a HoFer and was as good odom was for us.

I'd say the criteria is you get your jersey retired if you get into the Hall and your play with the Laker was the main or very important reason you got into the Hall.

McAdoo really earned his place in the Hall for what he did for other teams.

There are lots of Hall of Famers who played for the Lakers but didn't get their jersey retired - Dantley, Karl Malone, Gary Payton, Mitch Richmond, Dennis Rodman, Connie Hawkins.

wouldn't Wilt be in the HoF without the Lakers experience?

and no, i'm not seriously comparing Mac to Wilt. I am comparing him to Pau though and he's a better player.

LA_Lakers_Rule
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Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 10:45 am Post subject:

greenfrog wrote:

LA_Lakers_Rule wrote:

activeverb wrote:

LA_Lakers_Rule wrote:

....getting back to the topic at hand in regards to Cooper.... the fact is that when we consider "retired numbers" it is Cooper who spent 3 more years as a Lakers player than either Wilkes or Goodrich (both retired numbers) and 7 more years (at this point) than Pau.... Cooper helped the Lakers to 5 titles, Wilkes contributed to 3 titles and Goodrich contributed to 1 title which can be factored in if we want to place any kind of emphasis on titles won.... Out of all three of these other players (Wilkes, Goodrich or Pau) Cooper is the ONLY LIFE-LONG LAKERS player besides the ONLY DPOY player in the franchises history as I mentioned before....

Coop was a solid player. But the guy never made an all-star team; he averaged 9-3-4 for his career. He only averaged 30 minutes in his career once.

If you retire his jersey, I think you also retire Byron Scott, Derek Fisher, and AC Green,. And then where do you draw the line - Norm Nixon, Kurt Rambis, Vlade Divac?

I wouldn't retire his jersey. And in reality it won't be retired.

I absolutely agree with you...

I was saying I'd personally consider Cooper IF Pau's number was retired which is why I said in the post your replying too:

LA_Lakers_Rule wrote:

.... If Pau's number were to be retired, I'd have no problem in that case if Cooper's was too.... That said, I am NOT personally a proponent of retiring Pau's number... but since the franchise has retired Wilke's number now, I can see why some would then argue in favor of Pau as well... Personally I think for the most part the talent level of retired Lakers numbers has been generally diluted since the first six were retired.... In my view outside of Baylor, West, Jabbar, Magic and Wilt the retired numbers become debatable.... Clearly those FIVE player are indisputably LEGENDARY type players which cannot really be said about any of the other remaining players with retired numbers, imho....

.

I understand the argument about Pau.... he's going to be a HOF player....

.... and yes, Pau helped contribute to two titles....

.... so no question about it, the argument is there to retire his number...

.... I'm just saying that from my perspective assuming Pau is gone after this year I'm just not a supporter the notion of retiring his number personally.... But then I wasn't a proponent to what I called the "third tier players" in my original post either, POSTED ON PAGE 2:

LA_Lakers_Rule wrote:

I've always said there are FIVE SUPER-STAR Jersey numbers that have a unique and incomparable stature when compared to the other retired number players:

Baylor, West, Johnson, Jabbar and Wilt are those five incomparable SUPER-STAR players, imho.... then we drop down a bit to Shaq and then start dropping a bit further with the rest of the players (Goodrich, Worthy and Wilkes in that order)....

The likes of Pau and Cooper (THE ONLY LAKER IN HISTORY TO WIN A DPOY AWARD) would arguably belong in my view in that third tier with Goodrich, Worthy and Wilkes.....

If I recall correctly we've had other HOF players that played for the Lakers a limited amount of time going back through the history of the franchise (maybe not as long as Pau but some a few years) and yet they have not had and will not have their numbers retired....

.... getting back to Cooper, while he was never an All-Star and his numbers aren't that much on paper.... these numbers DO NOT even come close to what WHAT HE CONTRIBUTED....

.... that is because Cooper was primarily a DEFENSIVE PLAYER!!! ... Stats aren't going to "tell the story" regarding a DEFENSIVE PLAYER as we all know....

.... AND... as I had pointed out COOPER IS THE ONLY DPOY IN LAKER FRANCHISE HISTORY.... That to me IS HUGE and personally overshadows a lot of what I referred to as the "third tier players" which is again where I categorized Pau (mainly because of his weaker defensive presence in general and the limited years as a Lakers player)

Pau is primarily an OFFENSIVE PLAYER, clearly defense was not his game.... SO OF COURSE HIS NUMBERS which reflect his "offense" WILL SHINE as compared to Cooper.... To be perfectly honest Pau is clearly the VERY WORST DEFENSIVE PLAYER out of ALL of the what I call "third tier players" I've mentioned....

What I'm looking at really doesn't have anything to do with stats... but rather WHAT COOPER AS A 12 YEAR LAKERS PLAYER FOR LIFE MEANT TO THE FRANCHISE.... I personally feel Cooper meant every bit as much as Pau has to the Lakers franchise.... that is when you consider the INTANGIBLES THAT COOPER BROUGHT TO THE TEAM....

... Pau's numbers glitter as an offensive player, Coopers numbers will not as a defensive player... as a result Pau will be a HOF player and Cooper will not.... If you ask me earning a DPOY (and the only Laker to do it) puts him up pretty close to a number of HOF players in my view....

.... All this said, I still do agree with you that Cooper WILL NOT have his number retired and Pau very likely will.... It's just the way I feel personally regarding these two players is all....

bob mcadoo? hands down he was a better player than pau

Exactly, this is the one player that I could think of at the time when I posted:

LA_Lakers_Rule wrote:

.... and I would agree with you that McAdoo was the better ALL AROUND player (considering both sides of the ball) and McAdoo IS A HOF INDUCTEE.

McAdoo played for the Lakers for 4 years and contributed to TWO TITLES the same number of titles as Pau....

.... So then if we are looking for HOF players who contributed to TITLES then McAdoo is just as deserving if not MORE than Pau, RIGHT?

Then there's more to think about if we are placing the primary consideration on the basis of HOF STATUS and by doing so eliminating Cooper on this basis.... what about Karl Malone, after all Malone IS A HOF player, will we need to retire his number?.... or what about Gary Payton?.... Payton IS a HOF player as well after all and if not for all the injuries in that playoff both he and Karl Malone would have a Lakers ring.... What about Glen Rice in the event he eventually makes it into the HOF?....

I frankly don't see why we have to place so much emphasis on HOF players when in the case of Cooper he clearly contributed overall more than Pau has by CONTRIBUTING TO FIVE TITLES during the fabulous "show time" era and actually winning the ONLY DPOY award in Lakers franchise history....

.... but if WE ARE placing that much emphasis on HOF to actually eliminate the deserving Cooper then Bob McAdoo clearly does need consideration by contributing to TWO titles (as Pau did) as well reaching that "all important" HOF player status.... but of course he won't be considered for what I'm calling the "third tier" of retired numbers, as we all know....
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Vancouver Fan
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Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 12:19 pm Post subject:

No question. _________________ Music is my medicine

activeverb
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Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 12:20 pm Post subject:

greenfrog wrote:

activeverb wrote:

greenfrog wrote:

kikanga wrote:

Of course! All nba hall of famers get their jersey retired

not MacAdoo. he's a HoFer and was as good odom was for us.

I'd say the criteria is you get your jersey retired if you get into the Hall and your play with the Laker was the main or very important reason you got into the Hall.

McAdoo really earned his place in the Hall for what he did for other teams.

There are lots of Hall of Famers who played for the Lakers but didn't get their jersey retired - Dantley, Karl Malone, Gary Payton, Mitch Richmond, Dennis Rodman, Connie Hawkins.

wouldn't Wilt be in the HoF without the Lakers experience?

and no, i'm not seriously comparing Mac to Wilt. I am comparing him to Pau though and he's a better player.

I think Wilt would get in the Hall based on his 76er career alone and Kareem would get there based on his Buck career alone. However, the point is both Wilt and Kareem had Hall of Fame worthy careers here as well. McAdoo didn't.

activeverb
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Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 12:28 pm Post subject:

LA_Lakers_Rule wrote:

McAdoo played for the Lakers for 4 years and contributed to TWO TITLES the same number of titles as Pau....

.... So then if we are looking for HOF players who contributed to TITLES then McAdoo is just as deserving if not MORE than Pau, RIGHT?
....

No. Because McAdoo didn't contribute as much to this titles as Pau did.

During Pau's title years he was the clear #2 on the team, an all-star and all-NBA 3rd team member.

McAdoo was a great backup but he was probably only the 5th-7th most important guy on his ring teams.

Honestly, if you retired McAdoo's jersey, it would really be for his career in Buffalo (now the Clippers). Because if he hadn't been an MVP/scoring leader in Buffalo, no one would even think to suggest retiring his jersey here. The idea would cause people to roll their eyes.

LA_Lakers_Rule
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Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 12:29 pm Post subject:

activeverb wrote:

greenfrog wrote:

activeverb wrote:

greenfrog wrote:

kikanga wrote:

Of course! All nba hall of famers get their jersey retired

not MacAdoo. he's a HoFer and was as good odom was for us.

I'd say the criteria is you get your jersey retired if you get into the Hall and your play with the Laker was the main or very important reason you got into the Hall.

McAdoo really earned his place in the Hall for what he did for other teams.

There are lots of Hall of Famers who played for the Lakers but didn't get their jersey retired - Dantley, Karl Malone, Gary Payton, Mitch Richmond, Dennis Rodman, Connie Hawkins.

wouldn't Wilt be in the HoF without the Lakers experience?

and no, i'm not seriously comparing Mac to Wilt. I am comparing him to Pau though and he's a better player.

Valid point.... but then we're adding another criteria beyond HOF and TITLES.... that is we're adding into the equation how much the player directly contributed to the Lakers franchise and adding that this contribution to the Lakers would need to be "Hall of Fame worthy" which of course serves to conveniently rule out Cooper....

....so.... clearly using all these criteria facets, which I would agree are definitely valid points, there is clearly no debate.... well done....

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jager67
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Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 1:12 pm Post subject:

kikanga wrote:

Of course! All nba hall of famers get their jersey retired

Isn't Karl Malone in the Hall?????

LA_Lakers_Rule
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Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 1:17 pm Post subject:

jager67 wrote:

kikanga wrote:

Of course! All nba hall of famers get their jersey retired

Isn't Karl Malone in the Hall?????

Yes, and so is Payton, Rodman, Dantley, Richmond and C. Hawkins btw and all Lakers, as pointed out by me and others.... that said, you're going to have to read the caveats to this specific requirement to get numbers retired by the Lakers offered by other posters...

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Yama
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Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 2:20 pm Post subject:

Yea its gonna be rite under deandre jordans selfie

dmorans1
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Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 2:23 pm Post subject:

What about Metta guys??

MickMgl
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Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2014 10:22 pm Post subject:

greenfrog wrote:

kikanga wrote:

Of course! All nba hall of famers get their jersey retired

not MacAdoo. he's a HoFer and was as good as odom was for us.

Odom was a double-double guy for the Lakers. McAdoo was not. Though McAdoo was the better scorer as a player, with the Lakers Odom scored more, and played bigger minutes than McAdoo.

Odom was the third best player for the Lakers in three trips to the Finals.

McAdoo was maybe 6th or 7th on an admittedly loaded team. Most loaded ever, probably. Still, he was not "as good" for the Lakers as Odom was.

Anyhow, I'm not arguing that Odom should have his jersey retired, but it explains why Gasol would have his retired while McAdoo would not. Because not all HOFers who play with the Lakers get their jersey retired.

Rodman? Malone? Payton? I suspect Mitch Richmond may get HOF eventually. The Lakers won't retire his jersey, either.

McAdoo was on two championship teams, though, so the Lakers may revisit this one day. He was great overall, and very good with the Lakers, but I'm pretty neutral on whether or not they raise his jersey.

Edit: Just learned Richmond was voted in this year, so... good for him.

Cup-of-noodles
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Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2014 3:25 am Post subject:

Not if he leaves

greenfrog
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Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2014 8:09 am Post subject:

MickMgl wrote:

greenfrog wrote:

kikanga wrote:

Of course! All nba hall of famers get their jersey retired

not MacAdoo. he's a HoFer and was as good as odom was for us.

Minutes, as you said, is the big disparity. If you look at MacAdoo's stats "Per 36" during his seasons with the Lakers compared to Lamar's he actually kind of blows him away (yes differing styles). Admittedly it was a barbershop/fantasy-type statement; if you had a time machine and could swap them...

and Rodman, Malone, Payton and Richmond had no or little contribution to success here, so they differ from MacAdoo.

mnstrdnk
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Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 5:12 pm Post subject:

Byron Scott?

philipm35
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Posted: Sun May 04, 2014 2:07 am Post subject:

Reflexx wrote:

Probably.

Though I admit that my opinion of players that willingly choose to leave the Lakers isn't as high as those that left through trade.

Would you want to play for a fanbase that has NEVER appreciated you or what you did by restoring the Lakers to glory?

Me neither.

Gasol was THE reason that we went to 3 straight NBA Finals. Without Pau, Kobe still has 3 rings, NO Finals MVPs and not considered nearly as highly as he is now.

Gasol is every bit as good a Dirk, but nobody gives him credit for it because he started in Memphis and then came to LA where he was considered second fiddle to Kobe the whole time, although you KNOW that Kobe appreciates Pau.

Lakers fans....not so much.

philipm35
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Posted: Sun May 04, 2014 2:14 am Post subject:

Faceman wrote:

Yes. Absolutely. It won't go up as fast as Shaq's did or Kobe's will but it will be up there. I believe the Grizzlies should extend him the same honor; he's still one of their all-time greats.

It'd be nice but he gets even less respect in Memphis than he does in LA, even though he helped lead that team to three straight playoffs.

Fans were brutal to him when he struggled with a leg injury and still put up close to a double double (21ppg, 9rpg). Although if he goes back there, that'd be interesting.

philipm35
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Posted: Sun May 04, 2014 2:23 am Post subject:

Cup-of-noodles wrote:

Not if he leaves

When the fans and FO do not want you, you expect him to STAY???

Come on now.

Pau was THE reason we went to the Finals three years in a row.

NOT Phil.

NOT Kobe.

Pau.

In fact, without Pau playing D12 to a standstill and dominating the middle for large stretches of 2010 (including a monumentally important Game 7 vs BOS), the Lakers have no rings since 2002.

Move on, his jersey ABSOLUTELY belongs in the rafters.

LakerDYnasty72
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Posted: Sun May 04, 2014 6:28 am Post subject:

philipm35 wrote:

Cup-of-noodles wrote:

Not if he leaves

I just can't bring myself to view Pau's jersey in the rafters. I have much respect for his game & contributions, but I've seen these guys firsthand and I view them a bit differently. Those jerseys in the rafters are for rarified air types.

For me, even to this day there's still, and always has been, a little resistance to Jamal Wilkes & Gail Goodrich up there despite seeing their entire careers. It's not just the numbers, it's also the shadow that the all time greats cast over the game. Magic...HUGE...Wilt...HUGE..Kareem...HUGE...Jerry West...HUGE..not so much with the Gail "Stumpy" Goodrich, Jamal Wilkes & Pau Gasol types...just me.

philipm35
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Posted: Sun May 04, 2014 7:37 am Post subject:

LakerDYnasty72 wrote:

philipm35 wrote:

Cup-of-noodles wrote:

Not if he leaves

How many titles IN LA were Wilt and Jerry responsible for as PLAYERS? 2, in over a decade. Pau was directly responsible for the Lakers making 3 straight titles appearances and back to back titles.

Wilt is an ALL TIME NBA legend, not so much a LAKER Legend. Pretty much there are THREE. Jerry, Magic, Kareem. Everyone else is pretty much second fiddle.

But if we are having a discussion about who belongs up there then Pau ABSOLUTELY does, particularly if guys like Wilkes and Goodrich are up there. Even Worthy was just the third best player on his team for the majority of his tenure. Byron was the fourth, at best. Cooper was a sixth man and people think he belongs up there more than someone like Pau.

Just flat out ridiculous that this is even a discussion.

No Pau, NO RINGS since 2002. End of Story. The man belongs.

greenfrog
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Posted: Sun May 04, 2014 7:44 am Post subject:

philipm35 wrote:

LakerDYnasty72 wrote:

philipm35 wrote:

Cup-of-noodles wrote:

Not if he leaves

i think we beat the magic without him. that wasn't even a contest. his two other finals appearances weren't exactly impressive.

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