If Duncan can get to the finals this late in his career, Kobe can too.
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Should mods take jeggs bet to ban him if Lakers don't make playoffs but put this in TOPIC HOF forever if Lakers do make playoffs in 2015?
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No
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Just ban him any way, who cares bro
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quixoticsyz
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 10:35 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
I think Kobe's just wired differently. Here's the most telling evidence.

Kobe has said if he isn't playing at a high level, he'll retire.

Duncan hasn't played at an elite level, took a paycut, but continued to play with a diminished role on his team.

I find it hard for Kobe to accept being a #2 or 3 option on a team. It's either he's the alpha or he packs up and leaves the court.

That alpha mentality has made him king of the hill for a while, but will also be the reason why he probably won't win out like Duncan did at the end of his career.


Kobe accepted a #2 role just fine when he was with Shaq.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 11:04 am    Post subject:

quixoticsyz wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
I think Kobe's just wired differently. Here's the most telling evidence.

Kobe has said if he isn't playing at a high level, he'll retire.

Duncan hasn't played at an elite level, took a paycut, but continued to play with a diminished role on his team.

I find it hard for Kobe to accept being a #2 or 3 option on a team. It's either he's the alpha or he packs up and leaves the court.

That alpha mentality has made him king of the hill for a while, but will also be the reason why he probably won't win out like Duncan did at the end of his career.


Kobe accepted a #2 role just fine when he was with Shaq.


When he was 19 to early 20s. Then he was unquestionably the focal point.

I do believe Kobe. If his play on the court is one that is typically a 3rd option level production, he'll just retire.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 11:08 am    Post subject:

quixoticsyz wrote:
Vancouver Fan wrote:
som3on3_10 wrote:
Mamba3301 wrote:
So Duncan won a championship as a role player...Kobe could go to a stacked team with a great coach and easily win another title as a role player (he'd probably be the greatest role player in NBA history). Of course he would retire before becoming a role player so there is no point of this comparison.


Duncan didn't go to a stacked team, he took less money so that his team could become "stacked". Role player? He averaged a double double in the finals as a starter. What finals did you watch? So yes the comparison is very fair. The only difference is that Duncan will end his career contending for titles while Kobe will end his contending for the 8th spot in the playoffs if he's lucky.
Duncan was effective throughout the playoffs but he was a role player. A very important one, but he was not the focal point on both ends of the floor like we are used to seeing.


You know Ducan was the 2nd option right? When you're a second option of a championship team and you're part of the "big 3" you're not a role player. Tony Parker was the first option. Kawhi won finals MVP but he was not a top 3 option (just listen to Pop's interview where he said he didn't
run a signs play for Kawhi).


The term "role player" is meaningless because people use it to mean anything from a guy who isn't a superstar to a scrub at the end of the bench. Five different people can be talking about "role players" and each of them can be talking about a different kind of player entirely.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 11:28 am    Post subject:

quixoticsyz wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
I think Kobe's just wired differently. Here's the most telling evidence.

Kobe has said if he isn't playing at a high level, he'll retire.

Duncan hasn't played at an elite level, took a paycut, but continued to play with a diminished role on his team.

I find it hard for Kobe to accept being a #2 or 3 option on a team. It's either he's the alpha or he packs up and leaves the court.

That alpha mentality has made him king of the hill for a while, but will also be the reason why he probably won't win out like Duncan did at the end of his career.


Kobe accepted a #2 role just fine when he was with Shaq.


I'm assuming you're talking about BEFORE he said he was tired of being second fiddle?
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ppineda
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2014 6:45 am    Post subject:

_#1_ wrote:
ppineda wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
I think Dirk is doing it the right way. He's basically saying that he won't take a salary cut just for the sake of it. If he gets help and it requires a salary cut, he would do it.

That's the perfect approach that I wish we took. If the FO could get Kobe help, I'm sure he would take a bigger cut. If the FO couldn't get one, Kobe should get his current extension.

Again, my blame pie is predominantly the FO, not Kobe.


Yup! The main reason that Tim Duncan took less, wasn't because they asked nicely. It's because the front office had a plan, you take less and we keep Tony and Manu at a reduced rate and go after other pieces. Same thing with Dirk. It's not Kobe's fault the FO didn't lay out a scenario where it would make sense for him to take less.


Right but isn't that an argument for waiting till the off-season to at least have some free agent names?

Hey Kobe, it's you, Melo, and LeBron at $15m each, with a first rounder and plenty left over, how bout it?

or

Hey Kobe it's Boozer and a one year Pau rental, here's $33 million for another year and we'll revisit this again next off season.


Yes, if the Laker Front Office was smart. They would have waiting until the offseason to give Kobe a new contract and then they would have more flexibility with salaries and luring other stars. Hard to sell a LeBron or a Melo on a paycut if Kobe is pulling down 25million.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2014 11:36 am    Post subject:

ppineda wrote:
_#1_ wrote:
ppineda wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
I think Dirk is doing it the right way. He's basically saying that he won't take a salary cut just for the sake of it. If he gets help and it requires a salary cut, he would do it.

That's the perfect approach that I wish we took. If the FO could get Kobe help, I'm sure he would take a bigger cut. If the FO couldn't get one, Kobe should get his current extension.

Again, my blame pie is predominantly the FO, not Kobe.


Yup! The main reason that Tim Duncan took less, wasn't because they asked nicely. It's because the front office had a plan, you take less and we keep Tony and Manu at a reduced rate and go after other pieces. Same thing with Dirk. It's not Kobe's fault the FO didn't lay out a scenario where it would make sense for him to take less.


Right but isn't that an argument for waiting till the off-season to at least have some free agent names?

Hey Kobe, it's you, Melo, and LeBron at $15m each, with a first rounder and plenty left over, how bout it?

or

Hey Kobe it's Boozer and a one year Pau rental, here's $33 million for another year and we'll revisit this again next off season.


Yes, if the Laker Front Office was smart. They would have waiting until the offseason to give Kobe a new contract and then they would have more flexibility with salaries and luring other stars. Hard to sell a LeBron or a Melo on a paycut if Kobe is pulling down 25million.


Better yet, they could have sold la as a blank slate w/o Kobe at all. Melo and Lebron could choose the coach+roster while having all the spotlight.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2014 1:59 pm    Post subject:

dabask11 wrote:
ppineda wrote:
_#1_ wrote:
ppineda wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
I think Dirk is doing it the right way. He's basically saying that he won't take a salary cut just for the sake of it. If he gets help and it requires a salary cut, he would do it.

That's the perfect approach that I wish we took. If the FO could get Kobe help, I'm sure he would take a bigger cut. If the FO couldn't get one, Kobe should get his current extension.

Again, my blame pie is predominantly the FO, not Kobe.


Yup! The main reason that Tim Duncan took less, wasn't because they asked nicely. It's because the front office had a plan, you take less and we keep Tony and Manu at a reduced rate and go after other pieces. Same thing with Dirk. It's not Kobe's fault the FO didn't lay out a scenario where it would make sense for him to take less.


Right but isn't that an argument for waiting till the off-season to at least have some free agent names?

Hey Kobe, it's you, Melo, and LeBron at $15m each, with a first rounder and plenty left over, how bout it?

or

Hey Kobe it's Boozer and a one year Pau rental, here's $33 million for another year and we'll revisit this again next off season.


Yes, if the Laker Front Office was smart. They would have waiting until the offseason to give Kobe a new contract and then they would have more flexibility with salaries and luring other stars. Hard to sell a LeBron or a Melo on a paycut if Kobe is pulling down 25million.


Better yet, they could have sold la as a blank slate w/o Kobe at all. Melo and Lebron could choose the coach+roster while having all the spotlight.


Except they were never going to do that, didn't even cross their minds.
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dabask11
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2014 7:35 pm    Post subject:

SaintsLFC13 wrote:
dabask11 wrote:
ppineda wrote:
_#1_ wrote:
ppineda wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
I think Dirk is doing it the right way. He's basically saying that he won't take a salary cut just for the sake of it. If he gets help and it requires a salary cut, he would do it.

That's the perfect approach that I wish we took. If the FO could get Kobe help, I'm sure he would take a bigger cut. If the FO couldn't get one, Kobe should get his current extension.

Again, my blame pie is predominantly the FO, not Kobe.


Yup! The main reason that Tim Duncan took less, wasn't because they asked nicely. It's because the front office had a plan, you take less and we keep Tony and Manu at a reduced rate and go after other pieces. Same thing with Dirk. It's not Kobe's fault the FO didn't lay out a scenario where it would make sense for him to take less.


Right but isn't that an argument for waiting till the off-season to at least have some free agent names?

Hey Kobe, it's you, Melo, and LeBron at $15m each, with a first rounder and plenty left over, how bout it?

or

Hey Kobe it's Boozer and a one year Pau rental, here's $33 million for another year and we'll revisit this again next off season.


Yes, if the Laker Front Office was smart. They would have waiting until the offseason to give Kobe a new contract and then they would have more flexibility with salaries and luring other stars. Hard to sell a LeBron or a Melo on a paycut if Kobe is pulling down 25million.


Better yet, they could have sold la as a blank slate w/o Kobe at all. Melo and Lebron could choose the coach+roster while having all the spotlight.


Except they were never going to do that, didn't even cross their minds.


Considering how the front office has been acting, if melo+lebron said either us or Kobe, they'd give it serious consideration.

The point was if it came to that, it would be a plausible scenario. No use thinking about it now with Kobe on the books.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 2:42 pm    Post subject:

Vancouver Fan wrote:
som3on3_10 wrote:
Mamba3301 wrote:
So Duncan won a championship as a role player...Kobe could go to a stacked team with a great coach and easily win another title as a role player (he'd probably be the greatest role player in NBA history). Of course he would retire before becoming a role player so there is no point of this comparison.


Duncan didn't go to a stacked team, he took less money so that his team could become "stacked". Role player? He averaged a double double in the finals as a starter. What finals did you watch? So yes the comparison is very fair. The only difference is that Duncan will end his career contending for titles while Kobe will end his contending for the 8th spot in the playoffs if he's lucky.
Duncan was effective throughout the playoffs but he was a role player. A very important one, but he was not the focal point on both ends of the floor like we are used to seeing.


The Spurs offense was built so there wasn't a focal point on offense. It was free flowing, lots of passes, any man takes the open shot. But Duncan was the anchor of the defense and he played more minutes than any other Spur in the playoffs. Are role players the center of 1/2 the game and play the most minutes on a team? I forget...
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 8:35 pm    Post subject: Re: If Duncan can get to the finals this late in his career, Kobe can too.

Jeggs wrote:
Duncan is 38...Kobe is what, 36? If Duncan can do this late in the game, so can Kobe. Both Duncan and Kobe possess the skillset to have a big impact despite being in their mid thrities. It's about having a smart coach that can manage Kobe's minutes, a solid core group with a great leader like Kobe, and a great organization and FO.

We have a lot of the pieces we need...

Lakers can follow San Antonio's model, and get to their level.

We can get a great coach this season. We can find a solid player in the draft. We have the cap space to surround Kobe with the right role players. We have Kobe as a leader to mentor younger players...

We will have a better record than the Clippers next season. Mark my words.

you cannot believe this drivel, kobe is nothing like duncan. duncan took less money, he doesn't complain about shot attempts and willingly let other people have the spotlight something kobe has never shown an inclination to do
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 28, 2014 1:45 pm    Post subject:

Keeping Julius Randle was the first step to get to the Finals. We got a versatile big man like ZBO except more athletic, and he makes slightly less than ZBO which is also a bonus. Plus he doesn't affect cap space.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 28, 2014 2:20 pm    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
quixoticsyz wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
I think Kobe's just wired differently. Here's the most telling evidence.

Kobe has said if he isn't playing at a high level, he'll retire.

Duncan hasn't played at an elite level, took a paycut, but continued to play with a diminished role on his team.

I find it hard for Kobe to accept being a #2 or 3 option on a team. It's either he's the alpha or he packs up and leaves the court.

That alpha mentality has made him king of the hill for a while, but will also be the reason why he probably won't win out like Duncan did at the end of his career.


Kobe accepted a #2 role just fine when he was with Shaq.


When he was 19 to early 20s. Then he was unquestionably the focal point.

I do believe Kobe. If his play on the court is one that is typically a 3rd option level production, he'll just retire.


Yeah, Kobe "accepted" Being second can be taken with a grain of salt. When he was a kid maybe he had no option now? Don't count on it.

I'm hoping he retires before the pitfall, it's never pretty....
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2014 2:29 pm    Post subject:

I can see Kobe being much more productive than Duncan at this stage in his career if he returns healthy. I'd say he will go 23 and 5 at the worst if healthy. But he will probably be a 25ppg player even with limited minutes. Definitely to 5 if he is at full health, and still be best at his position...
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2014 4:15 pm    Post subject:

I agree Kobe can get to the finals at his age, but the problem is he won't get there with the Lakers. All this Lebron -Melo coming to the Lakers garbage is just that. It's going to be a long time before the Lakers win the Championship again. It's not like the good ole days when everybody wanted to be a laker. If kobe wants a ring it's best for him to go play for a contender not a basement dweller.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2014 5:56 pm    Post subject: Re: If Duncan can get to the finals this late in his career, Kobe can too.

Jeggs wrote:
Duncan is 38...Kobe is what, 36? If Duncan can do this late in the game, so can Kobe. Both Duncan and Kobe possess the skillset to have a big impact despite being in their mid thrities. It's about having a smart coach that can manage Kobe's minutes, a solid core group with a great leader like Kobe, and a great organization and FO.

We have a lot of the pieces we need...

Lakers can follow San Antonio's model, and get to their level.

We can get a great coach this season. We can find a solid player in the draft. We have the cap space to surround Kobe with the right role players. We have Kobe as a leader to mentor younger players...

We will have a better record than the Clippers next season. Mark my words.


I hope everyone realizes that this is a troll post and are just having fun with it...
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2014 11:39 pm    Post subject: THE SPURS WON WITH THE TRYI / PRISCETON

You Kids Need 2 Learn B Ball Pop Used The Tryi Mixed With The Princeton Book It While Miami Used JUST Talent No System In Place And Tired Legs Thats The Only Reason They Lost The Announcer Told You You Think Its The Tryi/PRINCETON Offense But Its Not It Was The Tryi Moving Slashing Offense Cuts Getting People Open Why Would They Say It WAS Not The Princeton They Would Look Bad Because They Told You In La It Would Not Work 2 Save Face SAME SYSTEM THAT THE KINGS USED 2 BE THE SECOND BEST TEAM IN THE WEST AND TOOK PRIME SHAQ KOBE 2 GAME 7 ONLY REASON THEY LOST MISSED FREE THROWS NOW IT CANT WORK LOL YES IT CAN BUT YOU NO B BALL BETTER THEN POP LOL NO YOU DONT
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2014 3:36 am    Post subject:

quixoticsyz wrote:
Kobe accepted a #2 role just fine when he was with Shaq.


In '99-00 a 21 year old Kobe took less shots than Shaq. He took more shots than Shaq in every season after that point, in some cases significantly more (up to 5.4 more shots per game). Even in 2000 Kobe was always the man in the fourth quarter.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2014 6:16 am    Post subject:

at people saying Duncan isnt playing at an elite level. Seriously, that's really funny. Take Duncan off that team and tell me where that team goes.

No where is where.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2014 6:27 am    Post subject:

2nd fiddles do not close out games. That doesnt even make sense. So if anyone ever says Kobe was 2nd fiddle, call them jackasses and tell them while Shaq is in foul trouble in every fourth quarter and is a liability in the 4th, Kobe would close out games. 2nd fiddles do not close out games.

Shaq was the FIRST OPTION! Big difference. Anyone with a 60% FG pct should and always will be the first option. Even if you have 4 MJ's playing with him.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2014 6:50 am    Post subject:

Black Salt wrote:
2nd fiddles do not close out games. That doesnt even make sense. So if anyone ever says Kobe was 2nd fiddle, call them jackasses and tell them while Shaq is in foul trouble in every fourth quarter and is a liability in the 4th, Kobe would close out games. 2nd fiddles do not close out games.

Shaq was the FIRST OPTION! Big difference. Anyone with a 60% FG pct should and always will be the first option. Even if you have 4 MJ's playing with him.


Kobe was absolutely crucial to those championships. Shaq wouldn't have won them without him. However, I think it would be fair to call Kobe's role in those championships a supporting role (albeit a very, very important supporting role). He himself has called it that.
"The challenge for me was to show [O'Neal] and show everybody else that I could win without him," Bryant said. "And point proven. So, I'm fine either way. I took it as an honor and as a challenge to be a player that could play a supporting role and then move from that and take the leading role and win that way as well. I took a lot of pride of that, but I also took a lot of pride in kind of being a floor general and letting [O'Neal] do his thing."

http://espn.go.com/los-angeles/nba/story/_/id/8942694/kobe-bryant-says-shaquille-oneal-improved-relationship
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2014 6:53 am    Post subject:

Duncan is surrounded by Ginobli, parker, kawhi, diaw and a bunch of shooters and only makes around 10 mil if that. With Kobe's contract i dont see how we build a championship team around him.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2014 9:13 am    Post subject:

Kobe eats up way more salary than Duncan. His contract won't allow the Lakers to build a team around him that is good enough to win it all.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2014 11:54 am    Post subject:

Terms like 2nd fiddle are always tossed around because it's the easy thing to do. Not everything has to fit that paradigm. The bottom-line is, the Lakers had 2 #1 options in Shaq and Kobe.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2014 11:59 am    Post subject:

Since when did we suddenly surround Kobe with guys like Leonard, Parker, Ginobili, Diaw, Green, etc?

And what coach on the market even comes within a light year of Coach Pop?
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2014 12:57 pm    Post subject:

J.C. Smith wrote:
quixoticsyz wrote:
Kobe accepted a #2 role just fine when he was with Shaq.


In '99-00 a 21 year old Kobe took less shots than Shaq. He took more shots than Shaq in every season after that point, in some cases significantly more (up to 5.4 more shots per game). Even in 2000 Kobe was always the man in the fourth quarter.


And Kobe played second fiddle to Shaq and let him be the man for one reason, he knew that is what it would take to win. Winning was more important than big numbers.
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