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wolfpaclaker
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Joined: 29 May 2002
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 Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2014 10:23 am Post subject: |
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| angrypuppy wrote: | | laker4life wrote: | | wolfpaclaker wrote: | Melo saying it was always NY/CHI
Lakers never stood a chance. Nice to know all that time spent on a free agent who was always going to stay with NY or go to Chicago.
| Quote: | LAS VEGAS -- Carmelo Anthony said it was not the money, but instead his confidence in Phil Jackson and his belief that the Knicks "aren't that far away from contending for an NBA title" why he opted to remain in New York instead of signing with the Chicago Bulls.
"I want to win. I don't care about the money," Anthony told ESPN.com. "I believe Phil will do what he has to do to take care of that."
"I don't think we're that far away," he added. "People use 'rebuilding' too loosely." |
Huge faith there shown by Melo in Phil Jackson.
http://m.espn.go.com/nba/story?storyId=11263468 |
Too bad our Laker FO was not smart enough to realize that. |
Well in the specific case of Carmelo, I'm glad we didn't have a closer. With the money that Carmelo sought and the state of the roster, Carmelo wasn't a fit. Signing him would have been "winner's curse". |
Ditto. |
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cirehawk
Star Player
Joined: 08 Jun 2005
Posts: 5525
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| Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2014 4:55 pm Post subject: |
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| angrypuppy wrote: | | cirehawk wrote: | | angrypuppy wrote: | | cirehawk wrote: |
Okay, if you say so. So I'll tout my "unverifiable" creds. As someone who has given (and participated in) many sales meetings and interviews, I think I'm qualified to comment on it as well. I can't tell you how many times someone who was considered a "weaker" candidate has blown us away in the actual interview/presentation. So no matter how you feel the meeting was structured, you don't know how it actually went. Dwight has established a track record. He was wishy washy with Orlando, and he wanted no part of us. I have not doubt he will want out of Houston at some point. As much as I wanted Dwight a few years ago, his act has soured me on him. |
Your feelings on Dwight are not relevant, and please don't try selling me on the concept that interviews are quite the same as a group presentations at a close. The power dynamics are polar opposites, so as an analog it really doesn't wash.
You never, ever present your weaknesses at a close. You can acknowledge your weaknesses, but you do not put them on parade before the prospect. Having D'Antoni in there was beyond stupid, Dwight absolutely hated him and yet he was invited to speak. Nash and Dwight really went at it on the floor repeatedly when Nash was healthy, as Nash didn't feed Dwight in the post and Nash couldn't defend worth a damn. The troubles with Kobe were well-documented at well, and much of it stemmed from Dwight's deep insecurities. As a sales pro, you have to stay in close communication with your prospect. All indications are that the Lakers did not understand Dwight, perhaps because they were either poor at communicating or perhaps just poor at sales. Not only was communication essential to structure the right closing statement, it was necessary to determine whether Dwight could be closed at all. If he couldn't be closed, then they damn well should have traded him.
Now based on your experience at conducting interviews, tell me how communication wasn't necessary, and tell he me why it was a great idea to parade your weaknesses during the close. |
My feelings on Dwight are relevant because we're talking about Dwight. And I'm not trying to sell you on anything. Have done interviews AND sales. The point of all this was you don't know how the actual sales meeting went, so any comments on it (yours AND mine) are just opinion.
But I'll address some of your points. I'll start with Nash. From all accounts a great guy. A 2-time MVP and probably a HOFer. He and Dwight had issues? hmmmm... You bring up troubles with Kobe. Yeah, he's tough to deal with but he's a 5 time champion and HOFer (one of the best ever). He had troubles with Dwight too? Hmm... I doubt Dwight will be a HOFer, and he has maneuvered his way out of 2 organizations. He has no real post moves and thinks he should be a number one option. I'll throw in something unrelated. Shaq was always on D12 on the TNT broadcasts. Went so far as to say he thought Robin (or Brooke) Lopez was better.
I say all that to say this. Maybe the problem wasn't the people they brought in. Maybe the problem was Dwight! Where I will agree with you is that they should have done a better job anticipating he probably wouldn't re-sign, and traded him. They definitely botched that. |
Then I have to question your sales ability. You needn't regurgitate Nash's resume, which isn't relevant to closing Dwight. Dwight did not like Nash, and he hated D'Antoni. He obviously found Kobe to be a major irritant. You do not invite these three to a closing with Dwight. To suggest other is either disingenuous or weirdly naive for someone who claims to have done sales. |
Question all you want. We question each other on here all the time. I'll be direct. I haven't suggested anything (especially as to who SHOULD have been invited to the meeting). I made a specific comment regarding your statement about the meeting itself. That comment was that if none of us were there, we don't know how the actual meeting went. You say that Dwight did not like Nash, that he hated D'Antoni, and found Kobe to be a major irritant. So guess what? Those guys were still going to be on the team. I'm guessing that Dwight was leaving anyway, and I dare say that even if YOU (with all your self proclaimed sales expertise) had been in charge of putting together the closing meeting, the outcome wouldn't have been any different. The only real chance of convincing Dwight to stay would have been to get rid of those he didn't like. Get rid of D'Antoni? Sure. Nash, not so quick, but maybe. Get rid of Kobe? For D12? Maybe in an alternate universe.
So salesmanship (or closing ability) had nothing to do with it in my opinion. |
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wolfpaclaker
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Joined: 29 May 2002
Posts: 58336
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| Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2014 6:27 pm Post subject: |
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I could be wrong, and this discussion is so 2013, but if Lakers had fired MDA and given assurances to Dwight that Kobe would not be brought back in 2014 unless it was a major discount (Like Nowitzki or Duncan) so that there was money for Dwight to be paired with another max player in 2014, I think the whole thing goes down totally different.
But Lakers didn't know a few things they know now.
1- MDA would be as big a bust as he was
2- Kobe would play 6 games and average 14 ppg in 2013-14
3- Every major FA in 2014 says no thanks.
I wonder knowing what they do now if they do what they did, again. I think they'd approach having an all-star in prime FA a lot different.
Either way, if one operates under the assumption that Kobe gets the 24 M extension anyway, you factor Dwight's money and then where we finish last year with Dwight (probably 10th-9th in West) we won't have Julius Randle right now or capspace in 2015. I'm okay with capspace and Randle in 2015 vs not having Dwight. Of course in a perfect world we have Phil (Fisher), we re-sign Dwight, Kobe takes Duncan/Nowitzki money and Melo signs here for a little less than the max. We're going for a title run right now. Of course we don't live in that world. Dwight's a diva. Kobe's a bigger diva. Melo stays in NY and Phil wants power in the FO. Lakers fans lose, all the guys (Kobe, Melo, Dwight, Phil) involved get RICHER. You gotta love how the world works guys !  |
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angrypuppy
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Joined: 13 Apr 2001
Posts: 32752
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| Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2014 7:23 pm Post subject: |
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| cirehawk wrote: | | angrypuppy wrote: | | cirehawk wrote: | | angrypuppy wrote: | | cirehawk wrote: |
Okay, if you say so. So I'll tout my "unverifiable" creds. As someone who has given (and participated in) many sales meetings and interviews, I think I'm qualified to comment on it as well. I can't tell you how many times someone who was considered a "weaker" candidate has blown us away in the actual interview/presentation. So no matter how you feel the meeting was structured, you don't know how it actually went. Dwight has established a track record. He was wishy washy with Orlando, and he wanted no part of us. I have not doubt he will want out of Houston at some point. As much as I wanted Dwight a few years ago, his act has soured me on him. |
Your feelings on Dwight are not relevant, and please don't try selling me on the concept that interviews are quite the same as a group presentations at a close. The power dynamics are polar opposites, so as an analog it really doesn't wash.
You never, ever present your weaknesses at a close. You can acknowledge your weaknesses, but you do not put them on parade before the prospect. Having D'Antoni in there was beyond stupid, Dwight absolutely hated him and yet he was invited to speak. Nash and Dwight really went at it on the floor repeatedly when Nash was healthy, as Nash didn't feed Dwight in the post and Nash couldn't defend worth a damn. The troubles with Kobe were well-documented at well, and much of it stemmed from Dwight's deep insecurities. As a sales pro, you have to stay in close communication with your prospect. All indications are that the Lakers did not understand Dwight, perhaps because they were either poor at communicating or perhaps just poor at sales. Not only was communication essential to structure the right closing statement, it was necessary to determine whether Dwight could be closed at all. If he couldn't be closed, then they damn well should have traded him.
Now based on your experience at conducting interviews, tell me how communication wasn't necessary, and tell he me why it was a great idea to parade your weaknesses during the close. |
My feelings on Dwight are relevant because we're talking about Dwight. And I'm not trying to sell you on anything. Have done interviews AND sales. The point of all this was you don't know how the actual sales meeting went, so any comments on it (yours AND mine) are just opinion.
But I'll address some of your points. I'll start with Nash. From all accounts a great guy. A 2-time MVP and probably a HOFer. He and Dwight had issues? hmmmm... You bring up troubles with Kobe. Yeah, he's tough to deal with but he's a 5 time champion and HOFer (one of the best ever). He had troubles with Dwight too? Hmm... I doubt Dwight will be a HOFer, and he has maneuvered his way out of 2 organizations. He has no real post moves and thinks he should be a number one option. I'll throw in something unrelated. Shaq was always on D12 on the TNT broadcasts. Went so far as to say he thought Robin (or Brooke) Lopez was better.
I say all that to say this. Maybe the problem wasn't the people they brought in. Maybe the problem was Dwight! Where I will agree with you is that they should have done a better job anticipating he probably wouldn't re-sign, and traded him. They definitely botched that. |
Then I have to question your sales ability. You needn't regurgitate Nash's resume, which isn't relevant to closing Dwight. Dwight did not like Nash, and he hated D'Antoni. He obviously found Kobe to be a major irritant. You do not invite these three to a closing with Dwight. To suggest other is either disingenuous or weirdly naive for someone who claims to have done sales. |
Question all you want. We question each other on here all the time. I'll be direct. I haven't suggested anything (especially as to who SHOULD have been invited to the meeting). I made a specific comment regarding your statement about the meeting itself. That comment was that if none of us were there, we don't know how the actual meeting went. You say that Dwight did not like Nash, that he hated D'Antoni, and found Kobe to be a major irritant. So guess what? Those guys were still going to be on the team. I'm guessing that Dwight was leaving anyway, and I dare say that even if YOU (with all your self proclaimed sales expertise) had been in charge of putting together the closing meeting, the outcome wouldn't have been any different. The only real chance of convincing Dwight to stay would have been to get rid of those he didn't like. Get rid of D'Antoni? Sure. Nash, not so quick, but maybe. Get rid of Kobe? For D12? Maybe in an alternate universe.
So salesmanship (or closing ability) had nothing to do with it in my opinion. |
Thanks for clearing the confusion. You don't know a damn thing about sales. |
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cirehawk
Star Player
Joined: 08 Jun 2005
Posts: 5525
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| Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2014 9:00 pm Post subject: |
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| angrypuppy wrote: | | cirehawk wrote: | | angrypuppy wrote: | | cirehawk wrote: | | angrypuppy wrote: | | cirehawk wrote: |
Okay, if you say so. So I'll tout my "unverifiable" creds. As someone who has given (and participated in) many sales meetings and interviews, I think I'm qualified to comment on it as well. I can't tell you how many times someone who was considered a "weaker" candidate has blown us away in the actual interview/presentation. So no matter how you feel the meeting was structured, you don't know how it actually went. Dwight has established a track record. He was wishy washy with Orlando, and he wanted no part of us. I have not doubt he will want out of Houston at some point. As much as I wanted Dwight a few years ago, his act has soured me on him. |
Your feelings on Dwight are not relevant, and please don't try selling me on the concept that interviews are quite the same as a group presentations at a close. The power dynamics are polar opposites, so as an analog it really doesn't wash.
You never, ever present your weaknesses at a close. You can acknowledge your weaknesses, but you do not put them on parade before the prospect. Having D'Antoni in there was beyond stupid, Dwight absolutely hated him and yet he was invited to speak. Nash and Dwight really went at it on the floor repeatedly when Nash was healthy, as Nash didn't feed Dwight in the post and Nash couldn't defend worth a damn. The troubles with Kobe were well-documented at well, and much of it stemmed from Dwight's deep insecurities. As a sales pro, you have to stay in close communication with your prospect. All indications are that the Lakers did not understand Dwight, perhaps because they were either poor at communicating or perhaps just poor at sales. Not only was communication essential to structure the right closing statement, it was necessary to determine whether Dwight could be closed at all. If he couldn't be closed, then they damn well should have traded him.
Now based on your experience at conducting interviews, tell me how communication wasn't necessary, and tell he me why it was a great idea to parade your weaknesses during the close. |
My feelings on Dwight are relevant because we're talking about Dwight. And I'm not trying to sell you on anything. Have done interviews AND sales. The point of all this was you don't know how the actual sales meeting went, so any comments on it (yours AND mine) are just opinion.
But I'll address some of your points. I'll start with Nash. From all accounts a great guy. A 2-time MVP and probably a HOFer. He and Dwight had issues? hmmmm... You bring up troubles with Kobe. Yeah, he's tough to deal with but he's a 5 time champion and HOFer (one of the best ever). He had troubles with Dwight too? Hmm... I doubt Dwight will be a HOFer, and he has maneuvered his way out of 2 organizations. He has no real post moves and thinks he should be a number one option. I'll throw in something unrelated. Shaq was always on D12 on the TNT broadcasts. Went so far as to say he thought Robin (or Brooke) Lopez was better.
I say all that to say this. Maybe the problem wasn't the people they brought in. Maybe the problem was Dwight! Where I will agree with you is that they should have done a better job anticipating he probably wouldn't re-sign, and traded him. They definitely botched that. |
Then I have to question your sales ability. You needn't regurgitate Nash's resume, which isn't relevant to closing Dwight. Dwight did not like Nash, and he hated D'Antoni. He obviously found Kobe to be a major irritant. You do not invite these three to a closing with Dwight. To suggest other is either disingenuous or weirdly naive for someone who claims to have done sales. |
Question all you want. We question each other on here all the time. I'll be direct. I haven't suggested anything (especially as to who SHOULD have been invited to the meeting). I made a specific comment regarding your statement about the meeting itself. That comment was that if none of us were there, we don't know how the actual meeting went. You say that Dwight did not like Nash, that he hated D'Antoni, and found Kobe to be a major irritant. So guess what? Those guys were still going to be on the team. I'm guessing that Dwight was leaving anyway, and I dare say that even if YOU (with all your self proclaimed sales expertise) had been in charge of putting together the closing meeting, the outcome wouldn't have been any different. The only real chance of convincing Dwight to stay would have been to get rid of those he didn't like. Get rid of D'Antoni? Sure. Nash, not so quick, but maybe. Get rid of Kobe? For D12? Maybe in an alternate universe.
So salesmanship (or closing ability) had nothing to do with it in my opinion. |
Thanks for clearing the confusion. You don't know a damn thing about sales. |
And why on earth haven't the Lakers hired you? You'd close everyone, oh self-proclaimed mighty salesman.  |
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cirehawk
Star Player
Joined: 08 Jun 2005
Posts: 5525
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| Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2014 9:20 pm Post subject: |
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| wolfpaclaker wrote: | I could be wrong, and this discussion is so 2013, but if Lakers had fired MDA and given assurances to Dwight that Kobe would not be brought back in 2014 unless it was a major discount (Like Nowitzki or Duncan) so that there was money for Dwight to be paired with another max player in 2014, I think the whole thing goes down totally different.
But Lakers didn't know a few things they know now.
1- MDA would be as big a bust as he was
2- Kobe would play 6 games and average 14 ppg in 2013-14
3- Every major FA in 2014 says no thanks.
I wonder knowing what they do now if they do what they did, again. I think they'd approach having an all-star in prime FA a lot different.
Either way, if one operates under the assumption that Kobe gets the 24 M extension anyway, you factor Dwight's money and then where we finish last year with Dwight (probably 10th-9th in West) we won't have Julius Randle right now or capspace in 2015. I'm okay with capspace and Randle in 2015 vs not having Dwight. Of course in a perfect world we have Phil (Fisher), we re-sign Dwight, Kobe takes Duncan/Nowitzki money and Melo signs here for a little less than the max. We're going for a title run right now. Of course we don't live in that world. Dwight's a diva. Kobe's a bigger diva. Melo stays in NY and Phil wants power in the FO. Lakers fans lose, all the guys (Kobe, Melo, Dwight, Phil) involved get RICHER. You gotta love how the world works guys ! |
Possibly, but we know there is no way they could make that guarantee about Kobe. He was still playing at a high level so it wasn't unreasonable to expect he'd be playing longer than 2 years. Of course hindsight is 20/20, and I'm sure they'd have done some things differently had they known certain things would happen.
Agreed that both Kobe and Dwight are Diva's, and even agree Kobe is the bigger one. But Kobe's a 5-time champion, an all-time great, and someone who's demonstrated a singular focus on winning. Not to mention he has played his whole career here. Dwight is a Diva that hasn't won a thing, has been on 3 different teams now, and "appears" to want to have fun more than he wants to win. It would have been nice if he stayed as a complimentary piece but if the choice at the time was him or Kobe, I'd have chosen Kobe too. |
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