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| Worse coach? |
| Mike Brown |
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47% |
[ 75 ] |
| Mike D'Antoni |
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52% |
[ 83 ] |
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| Total Votes : 158 |
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ringfinger
Retired Number
Joined: 08 Oct 2013
Posts: 29418
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 Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 5:48 am Post subject: |
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| kikanga wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | I didn't say MDA created anything. Heck, Phil Jackson nor Tex Winter created the triangle.
Up tempo offenses have been around for a while. But the Nets didn't force teams to adjust to them. But teams had to adjust to the Suns offense and many incorporated a more up tempo style of play as a result. Phil eventually turned the corner on early offense after Phx, not NJ, and the same is true for coach Pop. |
Phil won his first few chips in chicago by trapping ball handlers and fastbreaking whenever possible. He called it "differential defense". They had no dominant big man. And that was a decade before MDA was in phoenix.
The merits of an uptempo style weren't ideally displayed in Phoenix. I admit they had solid seasons, but they constantly underachieved in the playoffs (the only time of year that matters in lakerland).
The two finals appearances by the Nets were a MUCH bigger accomplishment than anything MDA did in his multiple years at Phoenix. We will have to agree to disagree. I think Jason Kidd's fast break dominance had a bigger effect than what was done in phoenix. And that's not saying much, since they still didn't even win a chip.
It's kind of disrespectful how much credit MDA gets for "his" run n gun offense. As if the showtime lakers never existed. |
No one gives MDA credit for run and gun, per se. You're just overstating the credit he gets so you can downplay his involvement in it.
And of course you think Jason Kidd's fast break dominance had a bigger effect, you're trying to downplay MDA so you have to think that! The reality is that the Nets certainly leveraged Jason Kidd's fast break ability, but their offense wasn't anywhere near the potency of the MDA offense. Pace is what defines MDA's offense, not fast breaks. Fast breaks are generated via defense, which MDA's teams never played, but Scott's Nets did as they were ranked the #1 defensive team in 2002.
There's almost no comparison between Scott's Nets and MDA's Suns teams. The Nets relied on their defense to generate offensive possessions. The Suns didn't do that at all. The Nets offensive rating in 2002 was ranked 17th. The Suns offensive rating in the MDA years was 1st. Their points per 100 possessions was at a level it hadn't been in two decades. That's what he gets credit for. The Nets is an awful, awful comparison on nearly every level. |
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ringfinger
Retired Number
Joined: 08 Oct 2013
Posts: 29418
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| Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 5:55 am Post subject: |
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| dont_be_a_wuss wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | | Yeah, I don't think Phil would have pulled him out either. As I said, Phil Jackson did play him 45 mins/game for an entire month. In the 2006-2007 season, in March, when we were fighting for a playoff spot. We were the 7th seed. Sound familiar? =) |
Rubbish. How many injuries did Kobe suffer in that game Phil left him in for 45 minutes? How many times Vitti plead with him to get Kobe out? |
What's rubbish? That Phil played Kobe 45 mins/game for an entire month in 2006-2007? That we were fighting for a playoff spot? That we were the 7th seed? Those are all facts -- you can look them up and confirm them even.
Here, I'll even do it for you. Here's his MPG for all games in March 2007.
40:40
44:51
53:27
44:25
36:32 (36 pt blowout loss)
37:49 (27 pt blowout loss)
49:58
44:33
45:11
46:52
46:22
44:13
47:34
I don't know if Vitti wanted Kobe to rest, or get out of the game in 2007. I don't know that he did and I don't know that he didn't. And Kobe has always played with injuries. That's who he is. |
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KingKobe20
Franchise Player
Joined: 14 Jul 2006
Posts: 18674
Location: L.A County, 26 miles away from Staples Center
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| Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 5:59 am Post subject: |
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Dumbtoni by a landslide.
Both were pretty bad and lost the respect of the entire roster but at least Mike Brown wouldn't talk trash back through the media with smug comments about the fans or team.
You never heard Mike Brown tell lifelong Laker fans to go root for another team during a struggle.
_________________
"Tryin' to get that Kobe number, One Over Jordan"
-Kanye
aka ILLWiLL20
R.I.P PHIL |
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Voices
Star Player
Joined: 07 Jul 2006
Posts: 8287
Location: Oxnard, Ca.
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| Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 6:09 am Post subject: |
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| kikanga wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | I didn't say MDA created anything. Heck, Phil Jackson nor Tex Winter created the triangle.
Up tempo offenses have been around for a while. But the Nets didn't force teams to adjust to them. But teams had to adjust to the Suns offense and many incorporated a more up tempo style of play as a result. Phil eventually turned the corner on early offense after Phx, not NJ, and the same is true for coach Pop. |
Phil won his first few chips in chicago by trapping ball handlers and fastbreaking whenever possible. He called it "differential defense". They had no dominant big man. And that was a decade before MDA was in phoenix.
The merits of an uptempo style weren't ideally displayed in Phoenix. I admit they had solid seasons, but they constantly underachieved in the playoffs (the only time of year that matters in lakerland).
The two finals appearances by the Nets were a MUCH bigger accomplishment than anything MDA did in his multiple years at Phoenix. We will have to agree to disagree. I think Jason Kidd's fast break dominance had a bigger effect than what was done in phoenix. And that's not saying much, since they still didn't even win a chip.
It's kind of disrespectful how much credit MDA gets for "his" run n gun offense. As if the showtime lakers never existed. |
It is insulting to not give run and gun Showtime it's due, and to give to MDA, even more insulting.
The difference between Lakers Showtime run n gun and MDA run n gun, the Showtime Lakers would turn up the DEFENSE and run off the defense, MDA coached teams played almost no defense.
_________________
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ALTHOUGH HE STANDS 6 FEET 2 INCHES, JIM BUSS ATTENDED JOCKEY SCHOOL WHEN HE WAS 20. |
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kikanga
Retired Number
Joined: 15 Sep 2012
Posts: 29337
Location: La La Land
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| Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 7:43 am Post subject: |
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| ringfinger wrote: | | kikanga wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | I didn't say MDA created anything. Heck, Phil Jackson nor Tex Winter created the triangle.
Up tempo offenses have been around for a while. But the Nets didn't force teams to adjust to them. But teams had to adjust to the Suns offense and many incorporated a more up tempo style of play as a result. Phil eventually turned the corner on early offense after Phx, not NJ, and the same is true for coach Pop. |
Phil won his first few chips in chicago by trapping ball handlers and fastbreaking whenever possible. He called it "differential defense". They had no dominant big man. And that was a decade before MDA was in phoenix.
The merits of an uptempo style weren't ideally displayed in Phoenix. I admit they had solid seasons, but they constantly underachieved in the playoffs (the only time of year that matters in lakerland).
The two finals appearances by the Nets were a MUCH bigger accomplishment than anything MDA did in his multiple years at Phoenix. We will have to agree to disagree. I think Jason Kidd's fast break dominance had a bigger effect than what was done in phoenix. And that's not saying much, since they still didn't even win a chip.
It's kind of disrespectful how much credit MDA gets for "his" run n gun offense. As if the showtime lakers never existed. |
No one gives MDA credit for run and gun, per se. You're just overstating the credit he gets so you can downplay his involvement in it.
And of course you think Jason Kidd's fast break dominance had a bigger effect, you're trying to downplay MDA so you have to think that! The reality is that the Nets certainly leveraged Jason Kidd's fast break ability, but their offense wasn't anywhere near the potency of the MDA offense. Pace is what defines MDA's offense, not fast breaks. Fast breaks are generated via defense, which MDA's teams never played, but Scott's Nets did as they were ranked the #1 defensive team in 2002.
There's almost no comparison between Scott's Nets and MDA's Suns teams. The Nets relied on their defense to generate offensive possessions. The Suns didn't do that at all. The Nets offensive rating in 2002 was ranked 17th. The Suns offensive rating in the MDA years was 1st. Their points per 100 possessions was at a level it hadn't been in two decades. That's what he gets credit for. The Nets is an awful, awful comparison on nearly every level. |
So your saying MDA gets credit for playing an unsuccessful (no championships or finals appearances) fast paced offense with no defense? Kinda strange argument to make. You're harder on MDA than I am.
Most teams nowadays play defense and fast break at the same time. Sounds more like Scott's New Jersey team than MDA's suns (based on your description). So I guess I'm right! Scott's Nets are more influential than MDA's suns.
Also you ignored the 91-93 Bulls and the showtime lakers who pushed the ball whenever possible. Oh wait, they played defense so they don't get credit like MDA.
What a topsy tervy world, people say I'm downplaying MDA but at the same time they're telling me he doesn't care about defense (half the game of basketball).
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"Every hurt is a lesson, and every lesson makes you better” |
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ringfinger
Retired Number
Joined: 08 Oct 2013
Posts: 29418
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| Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 9:21 am Post subject: |
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| kikanga wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | | kikanga wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | I didn't say MDA created anything. Heck, Phil Jackson nor Tex Winter created the triangle.
Up tempo offenses have been around for a while. But the Nets didn't force teams to adjust to them. But teams had to adjust to the Suns offense and many incorporated a more up tempo style of play as a result. Phil eventually turned the corner on early offense after Phx, not NJ, and the same is true for coach Pop. |
Phil won his first few chips in chicago by trapping ball handlers and fastbreaking whenever possible. He called it "differential defense". They had no dominant big man. And that was a decade before MDA was in phoenix.
The merits of an uptempo style weren't ideally displayed in Phoenix. I admit they had solid seasons, but they constantly underachieved in the playoffs (the only time of year that matters in lakerland).
The two finals appearances by the Nets were a MUCH bigger accomplishment than anything MDA did in his multiple years at Phoenix. We will have to agree to disagree. I think Jason Kidd's fast break dominance had a bigger effect than what was done in phoenix. And that's not saying much, since they still didn't even win a chip.
It's kind of disrespectful how much credit MDA gets for "his" run n gun offense. As if the showtime lakers never existed. |
No one gives MDA credit for run and gun, per se. You're just overstating the credit he gets so you can downplay his involvement in it.
And of course you think Jason Kidd's fast break dominance had a bigger effect, you're trying to downplay MDA so you have to think that! The reality is that the Nets certainly leveraged Jason Kidd's fast break ability, but their offense wasn't anywhere near the potency of the MDA offense. Pace is what defines MDA's offense, not fast breaks. Fast breaks are generated via defense, which MDA's teams never played, but Scott's Nets did as they were ranked the #1 defensive team in 2002.
There's almost no comparison between Scott's Nets and MDA's Suns teams. The Nets relied on their defense to generate offensive possessions. The Suns didn't do that at all. The Nets offensive rating in 2002 was ranked 17th. The Suns offensive rating in the MDA years was 1st. Their points per 100 possessions was at a level it hadn't been in two decades. That's what he gets credit for. The Nets is an awful, awful comparison on nearly every level. |
So your saying MDA gets credit for playing an unsuccessful (no championships or finals appearances) fast paced offense with no defense? Kinda strange argument to make. You're harder on MDA than I am.
Most teams nowadays play defense and fast break at the same time. Sounds more like Scott's New Jersey team than MDA's suns (based on your description). So I guess I'm right! Scott's Nets are more influential than MDA's suns.
Also you ignored the 91-93 Bulls and the showtime lakers who pushed the ball whenever possible. Oh wait, they played defense so they don't get credit like MDA.
What a topsy tervy world, people say I'm downplaying MDA but at the same time they're telling me he doesn't care about defense (half the game of basketball). |
Did you even read any of what I wrote?
The 91-93 Bulls were dead last in pace. Why are you even talking about those Bulls teams? You just looked at teams that score a lot, didn't you? If there is a worse comparison to the Suns than Scott's Nets, it would be the last-in-pace Chicago Bulls of the early 90s. They scored a lot because they were offensively efficient.
The reason MDA has received recognition, is because his offensive philosophy resulted in one of the most high powered offenses the league has seen. Few teams ever rank in the top 3 for both offensive efficiency (points per 100 possessions) AND pace. Also, he was pushing the pace when the rest of the league had been slowing it down.
Want evidence of that? Here's some interesting facts:
- The last Showtime Lakers team wasn't even a top 10 team in terms of pace. Around 30% of the league's teams were playing at a faster pace.
- If the Suns top 3 pace team in 2007 played in the Showtime era, they'd have been tied for second SLOWEST team in the NBA.
- Only one team during the showtime Lakers era, scored fewer than 100 PPG.
So you can say he didn't invent basketball or fast paced offense or whatever all you like, but that is irrelevant to the discussion of why he gets credit. The reason he got credit, summarizing the above is:
- Pushed the pace in an era where teams were slowing it down (going against the grain)
- Was able to achieve both high offensive efficiency at a high pace (most teams do one at the expense of the other) |
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Don Draper
Retired Number
Joined: 21 Feb 2008
Posts: 28464
Location: LA --> Bay Area
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| Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 9:58 am Post subject: |
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| I'd say Mike Brown was worse, if only by a tiny bit. At least players developed under MDA. Brown sucked the soul out of our players, probably took a few years of Pau's prime away and he definitely shattered Sessions' psyche. |
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waterman40
Star Player
Joined: 17 Jun 2003
Posts: 6287
Location: Central Coast
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| Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 2:18 am Post subject: |
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| Brown was greater of 2 weasels........ |
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