Didnt know about the nutter that originally posted the claim, but i had seen the video already and had the same questions. He doesnt look real spry, but he doesnt look like he got his orbital bone broken either. One could argue he looks a little dazed, perhaps in shock though.
The good news is, in court this will be a simple issue of looking at xrays.
Curious how you found yourself on the nutter's site. As I've pointed out, consistently using such sites as evidence in discussions, while doing such things as calling the forensic scientist who did the autopsy and finds the evidence consistent with a bad shoot partial, lends to the idea that your accusation if others coming in with a made up mind is really because they don't agree with yours. Don't take this as an attack. You brought up the made up mind question, and I think most would agree that you are doing so from a strongly held position of your own. _________________ “We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel
I'd like to see the x-rays. A swollen face indicates a altercation. Does it say shooting a man running away is a danger is warranted?
Is it warranted if you draw your weapon and order your assailant to freeze ,and he turns and engages you instead?
Gotta look at all possibilities. We have witnesses who have reported both. It bears repeating though, that the witness with no known motive who was just caught up in the moment talking about what he had just seen says he saw Brown charge at the officer. That bears more weight to me than most of these witnesses on either side. Ask anyone out therir in ferguson protesting, you think they are gonna say Brown charged the officer? Ask anyone close to the officer, you think they are gonna say he executed a young college boy in cold blood? Of course not. Everyone involved is tainted, but that dude was caught on candid camera.
That's being selective. You take the word of one individual who said Brown lunged at the officer against four or five who said he didn't.
Reading your post implies those others had motives to say Brown didn't charge the officer.
One who said Brown was grasping at his side as though he was wounded and when he fell Wilson shot him multiple times.
IMO you've made up your mind and to that you have a right. I'm going to wait for all evidence to surface before I decide the right or wrong.
Its not being selective, the witness said the officer was firing and the guy said, "He kept coming". His words not mine, and it is just an opinion, but i think hes the most honest witness we have heard from due to the nature of how we heard his testimony. Not thru anonymous sources, not through statements to media, out of his own mouth just telling a dude next toh im what he saw. Just like you or i would had we just seen a car accident go down. Thats RAW. No attorneys present.
This is a dynamic situation. My opinion changes with what i hear, but i definitely take into account my own thoughts and feelings on how credible a witness is. It also happens to be the story that requires the least amount of imagination to believe imo. Prime example being Browns friend. I wanted to believe the kid. After all, he saw his friend walking down the street and ran out to meet him and say wasup. Cool Story Bro, you were just robbing a store with him. You know what his motive was, it was stick up for my black friend and stick it to the white cop. If 100 people popped up out of the protest and claimed they were eye witnesses would you give all their stories the same weight as the guy describing what he had just seen as the body still lay there in the middle of the street?
Im not taking the cop at his word.
Did you watch this LINK video Does this young lady sound less believable than the one you site as one you think more credible?
One witness said "he charged, kept coming." Several said he was running away, turned with his hands up, Wilson kept shooting. You say you're not being selective but you only side with the statement of one person, the one that fits your agenda. That's being selective.
I may be wrong but IMO you've already concluded Brown was culprit and base it on his robbing a convenience store. You offer one witness as believable as opposed to several with versions that don't fit your agenda.
You say you're "not taking the cop at his word," what word? I haven't heard anything from Wilson. All I've heard said by him came from his girl friend and the chief. Do you have any links with him saying something? If so please post them, I'd like to read HIS statements.
Why has the chief not released a incident report? He released the video of Brown in the convience store because the press forced him to. The press has asked for the incident report, he hasn't released it.
Why Won't Police Release Michael Brown Incident Report? (UPDATED)LINK _________________ Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.
Last edited by jodeke on Fri Aug 22, 2014 10:45 am; edited 1 time in total
Abraham Lincoln, MLK, you were fools.... I am shocked about this whole affair...
I witnessed a 800 black people gathering in a mall which ended in a gang fight, one kid stabbed with a screwdriver, but 30 police officers with nothing more than truncheons sorted it out, without shooting anyone.
I still remember the Lakers playing the Blazers in Vegas, in the 92 playoffs, during the riots after the Rodney King police officers were cleared of charges. King was drunk and was a beast, and they beat him up
It's an opinion piece but thought it was pretty interesting. Sometimes things happen so fast little time to think, just react. Did the cop misinterpreted Brown as charging back? If he was injured in the face after the scuffle did it effect his vision etc. Or was it really his intent to shoot him regardless?
I think these incidents really push for video came on patrol card and uniform. It would resolve bulk of these issues since on video. _________________ The journey to 17 begins...
Schellman, a spokesman for the St. Louis County police department. Schellman told TIME that the department does not intend to release the “investigative” component of the incident report, the part that details Wilson’s version of events.
I don't think Ferguson police will be forced to release the report. I sense they are working to cover up and not file charges. A cover up blockade in progress. _________________ Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.
The grand jury consists of six white men, three white women, two black women and one black man. Nine votes are needed to indict.
It's dependent on how McCulloch presents evidence. I feel in fairness he should recuse himself,
Sunny Hostin made a point that makes sense to me. If you were being voir dired and asked "Have you ever had a relative killed by a Black man, which McColluch did. If the answer was yes you would be dismissed.
I think McCulloch is to attached to be fair. I could be wrong, it's what I feel.
It's my understanding Grand Jury evidence is secret. If that's so, how will the public no what McCulloch presented? _________________ Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.
Last edited by jodeke on Fri Aug 22, 2014 7:28 pm; edited 1 time in total
Joined: 02 May 2005 Posts: 90307 Location: Formerly Known As 24
Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 2:49 pm Post subject:
70% minority population, 75% white grand jury. Sounds about fair. _________________ “We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel
Joined: 17 Nov 2007 Posts: 67714 Location: In a world where admitting to not knowing something is considered a great way to learn.
Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 3:18 pm Post subject:
24 wrote:
70% minority population, 75% white grand jury. Sounds about fair.
I'm not questioning the percent. My angst is in how McCulloch will present the evidence. Will he slant it or be fair.
It's my understanding evidence presented is secret. Will we ever know what he presented or how he presented it? _________________ Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.
A police officer who pushed a CNN journalist on live television in Ferguson, Missouri, this week has been relieved of duty following the discovery of a videotaped speech in which he criticized President Barack Obama, Muslims and gays in the military.
St. Louis County cop Dan Page, a 35-year police veteran, also denounced hate crime laws and boasted of killings he claimed to have committed in the remarks delivered to a group called the Oath Keepers of St. Louis and St. Charles. Its members vow to uphold the Constitution and are drawn from the military, law enforcement and emergency responders.
"Policemen are very cynical. I know I am," Page says from a podium on the video. "I hate everybody. I'm into diversity. I kill everybody." . . .
. . . County Police Chief Jon Belmar suspended Page after watching the video. Belmar told the St. Louis Post-Dispatch he would have fired Page if a review weren't first required. The review will begin Monday and Page will be told to undergo a psychological evaluation, according to USA Today.
Didnt know about the nutter that originally posted the claim, but i had seen the video already and had the same questions. He doesnt look real spry, but he doesnt look like he got his orbital bone broken either. One could argue he looks a little dazed, perhaps in shock though.
The good news is, in court this will be a simple issue of looking at xrays.
Curious how you found yourself on the nutter's site. As I've pointed out, consistently using such sites as evidence in discussions, while doing such things as calling the forensic scientist who did the autopsy and finds the evidence consistent with a bad shoot partial, lends to the idea that your accusation if others coming in with a made up mind is really because they don't agree with yours. Don't take this as an attack. You brought up the made up mind question, and I think most would agree that you are doing so from a strongly held position of your own.
Whoa there bud, i heard about the fractured orbital blah blah blah here. I didnt go to some nutter site and bring it here. To keep things in context, witnesses on both sides say there was a physical altercation. It was reported that he went to the hospital for pain and swelling on the side of his face. I read HERE about the fractured orbital bone and made the mistake of assuming it was true because i started following this thread thinking it might be a good place to keep up on the story.
I made a mistake of assumption. Just as it appears you just did.
I'd like to see the x-rays. A swollen face indicates a altercation. Does it say shooting a man running away is a danger is warranted?
Is it warranted if you draw your weapon and order your assailant to freeze ,and he turns and engages you instead?
Gotta look at all possibilities. We have witnesses who have reported both. It bears repeating though, that the witness with no known motive who was just caught up in the moment talking about what he had just seen says he saw Brown charge at the officer. That bears more weight to me than most of these witnesses on either side. Ask anyone out therir in ferguson protesting, you think they are gonna say Brown charged the officer? Ask anyone close to the officer, you think they are gonna say he executed a young college boy in cold blood? Of course not. Everyone involved is tainted, but that dude was caught on candid camera.
That's being selective. You take the word of one individual who said Brown lunged at the officer against four or five who said he didn't.
Reading your post implies those others had motives to say Brown didn't charge the officer.
One who said Brown was grasping at his side as though he was wounded and when he fell Wilson shot him multiple times.
IMO you've made up your mind and to that you have a right. I'm going to wait for all evidence to surface before I decide the right or wrong.
Its not being selective, the witness said the officer was firing and the guy said, "He kept coming". His words not mine, and it is just an opinion, but i think hes the most honest witness we have heard from due to the nature of how we heard his testimony. Not thru anonymous sources, not through statements to media, out of his own mouth just telling a dude next toh im what he saw. Just like you or i would had we just seen a car accident go down. Thats RAW. No attorneys present.
This is a dynamic situation. My opinion changes with what i hear, but i definitely take into account my own thoughts and feelings on how credible a witness is. It also happens to be the story that requires the least amount of imagination to believe imo. Prime example being Browns friend. I wanted to believe the kid. After all, he saw his friend walking down the street and ran out to meet him and say wasup. Cool Story Bro, you were just robbing a store with him. You know what his motive was, it was stick up for my black friend and stick it to the white cop. If 100 people popped up out of the protest and claimed they were eye witnesses would you give all their stories the same weight as the guy describing what he had just seen as the body still lay there in the middle of the street?
Im not taking the cop at his word.
Did you watch this LINK video Does this young lady sound less believable than the one you site as one you think more credible?
One witness said "he charged, kept coming." Several said he was running away, turned with his hands up, Wilson kept shooting. You say you're not being selective but you only side with the statement of one person, the one that fits your agenda. That's being selective.
I may be wrong but IMO you've already concluded Brown was culprit and base it on his robbing a convenience store. You offer one witness as believable as opposed to several with versions that don't fit your agenda.
You say you're "not taking the cop at his word," what word? I haven't heard anything from Wilson. All I've heard said by him came from his girl friend and the chief. Do you have any links with him saying something? If so please post them, I'd like to read HIS statements.
Why has the chief not released a incident report? He released the video of Brown in the convience store because the press forced him to. The press has asked for the incident report, he hasn't released it.
Why Won't Police Release Michael Brown Incident Report? (UPDATED)LINK
Im sorry but this is just wrong, i dont have an agenda. Im just trying to be a realist here. Ive said a couple times already i believe the truth llies somewhere in between what the officer has said, and what the witnesses are saying. Dont accuse me of having an agenda. What would that be anyway? To sway everyone on LG to some white supremacist opinion or something? Im leaning toward Brown being responsible for his own death. Not for lack of evidence either. If it were me or any other normal human being, we would have gotten our ass to the sidewalk. Why walk in the middle of a street and then get into a fight with a cop about it? Did he deserve to get shot? I dont know. THere seems to be evidence that he had already battered the officer, is it unreasonable to believe that the officer though his life could be in danger when Brown turned on him again? Thats not an agenda. Are you some autonomous robot that just sifts through information as it appears without being swayed one way or the other the whole time? If the answers yes then youre a liar.
Im not making a judgement, im just forming an opinion on the fly. We have different opinions on what we think went down. Big deal. Im not attacking anyone for believing the other side of the coin. So what exactly is my agenda here? Tell me what my motive is for talking about my opinion in an off topic forum of a basketball website?
Did you watch this LINK video Does this young lady sound less believable than the one you site as one you think more credible?
Yes i did. Im curious though why someone feels they need to lawyer up to tell the truth. Also it could just be a matter of perspective, but her video appears to begin after the other video, and from farther away. Im only going off of the videos themselves, i dont know the timing of either witnesses story. Also the first vid, even though it was not great english, seemed more detailed and articulate than this woman. She seems to be caught up emotionally, not really saying what happened, but more lamenting what happened. I understand she goes on TV to give her perspective, but the guy in the first vid is there giving his account minutes after it had just happened. IMO there is a difference of timing, and i still weight the first one as stronger for now.
Having followed this rather closely, what seems to be the issue, besides the facts or how a jury will interpret the competing presentations, is the law itself and police procedure.
While I could not find anything from Furguson or St. Louis, this is from Cincinnati, 12.550, DISCHARGING OF FIREARMS BY POLICE PERSONNEL, I suspect it is far more similar (or even identical) than not to Furguson.
Police officers may not use deadly force merely to prevent escape in misdemeanor cases. The use of deadly force to prevent escape of felony suspects is constitutionally unreasonable except where the escape presents an immediate risk of death or serious physical harm to another
Where the suspect poses no immediate threat of death or serious physical harm to others, the harm resulting from failing to apprehend him does not justify the use of
deadly force to do so. If an officer uses unnecessary and/or excessive force, or acts wantonly and maliciously, he could be found guilty of assault, even of culpable homicide if he kills the person he is attempting to arrest.
At such time as a police officer perceives what he interprets to be a threat of loss of life or serious physical harm to himself or others at the hands of another, he has the authority to display a firearm, with finger outside the trigger guard and have it ready for self-defense. The finger is only to be placed on the trigger when on target and ready to engage a threat.
Quote:
Warning Shots:Officers should only use warning shots if convinced a warning shot will possibly save a life or alleviate the need of taking a life. As with any shot an officer fires, the officer must know it will not endanger innocent bystanders. Supervisors should report and investigate warning shots as outlined in Section A.
Felonies: When all other reasonable means at the officer's disposal have failed, the use of firearms is authorized, only under the following circumstances, as a last resort to apprehend a fleeing felon:
•The officer has probable cause to believe the suspect has committed or is committing a felony, and
•The suspect presents an immediate risk of death or serious physical harm, either to the officer or another person if not immediately apprehended.
•If possible, the officer will give verbal warning before using the firearm.
(emphasis added)
If this applies to Furguson and the facts even agree with Wilson's story (as I think it is pretty clear he fired while Brown was running away), I think Wilson, the Department, the asphalt, and anything else they can think of, has/have real problems. _________________ "A metronome keeps time by using a Ringo"
I'd like to see the x-rays. A swollen face indicates a altercation. Does it say shooting a man running away is a danger is warranted?
Is it warranted if you draw your weapon and order your assailant to freeze ,and he turns and engages you instead?
Gotta look at all possibilities. We have witnesses who have reported both. It bears repeating though, that the witness with no known motive who was just caught up in the moment talking about what he had just seen says he saw Brown charge at the officer. That bears more weight to me than most of these witnesses on either side. Ask anyone out therir in ferguson protesting, you think they are gonna say Brown charged the officer? Ask anyone close to the officer, you think they are gonna say he executed a young college boy in cold blood? Of course not. Everyone involved is tainted, but that dude was caught on candid camera.
That's being selective. You take the word of one individual who said Brown lunged at the officer against four or five who said he didn't.
Reading your post implies those others had motives to say Brown didn't charge the officer.
One who said Brown was grasping at his side as though he was wounded and when he fell Wilson shot him multiple times.
IMO you've made up your mind and to that you have a right. I'm going to wait for all evidence to surface before I decide the right or wrong.
Its not being selective, the witness said the officer was firing and the guy said, "He kept coming". His words not mine, and it is just an opinion, but i think hes the most honest witness we have heard from due to the nature of how we heard his testimony. Not thru anonymous sources, not through statements to media, out of his own mouth just telling a dude next toh im what he saw. Just like you or i would had we just seen a car accident go down. Thats RAW. No attorneys present.
This is a dynamic situation. My opinion changes with what i hear, but i definitely take into account my own thoughts and feelings on how credible a witness is. It also happens to be the story that requires the least amount of imagination to believe imo. Prime example being Browns friend. I wanted to believe the kid. After all, he saw his friend walking down the street and ran out to meet him and say wasup. Cool Story Bro, you were just robbing a store with him. You know what his motive was, it was stick up for my black friend and stick it to the white cop. If 100 people popped up out of the protest and claimed they were eye witnesses would you give all their stories the same weight as the guy describing what he had just seen as the body still lay there in the middle of the street?
Im not taking the cop at his word.
Did you watch this LINK video Does this young lady sound less believable than the one you site as one you think more credible?
One witness said "he charged, kept coming." Several said he was running away, turned with his hands up, Wilson kept shooting. You say you're not being selective but you only side with the statement of one person, the one that fits your agenda. That's being selective.
I may be wrong but IMO you've already concluded Brown was culprit and base it on his robbing a convenience store. You offer one witness as believable as opposed to several with versions that don't fit your agenda.
You say you're "not taking the cop at his word," what word? I haven't heard anything from Wilson. All I've heard said by him came from his girl friend and the chief. Do you have any links with him saying something? If so please post them, I'd like to read HIS statements.
Why has the chief not released a incident report? He released the video of Brown in the convience store because the press forced him to. The press has asked for the incident report, he hasn't released it.
Why Won't Police Release Michael Brown Incident Report? (UPDATED)LINK
Im sorry but this is just wrong, i dont have an agenda. Im just trying to be a realist here. Ive said a couple times already i believe the truth llies somewhere in between what the officer has said, and what the witnesses are saying. Dont accuse me of having an agenda. What would that be anyway? To sway everyone on LG to some white supremacist opinion or something? Im leaning toward Brown being responsible for his own death. Not for lack of evidence either. If it were me or any other normal human being, we would have gotten our ass to the sidewalk. Why walk in the middle of a street and then get into a fight with a cop about it? Did he deserve to get shot? I dont know. THere seems to be evidence that he had already battered the officer, is it unreasonable to believe that the officer though his life could be in danger when Brown turned on him again? Thats not an agenda. Are you some autonomous robot that just sifts through information as it appears without being swayed one way or the other the whole time? If the answers yes then youre a liar.
Im not making a judgement, im just forming an opinion on the fly. We have different opinions on what we think went down. Big deal. Im not attacking anyone for believing the other side of the coin. So what exactly is my agenda here? Tell me what my motive is for talking about my opinion in an off topic forum of a basketball website?
You say you don't have an agenda yet you only believe those who say things that fit your "leaning toward Brown being responsible for his own death." Videos that say Brown was running away, you ignore or at least don't acknowledge their existence. If those in the videos are telling the truth, Brown was running away, why would Wilson shoot him?
He may have a swollen face and tussled with Brown. I've read posts saying it could have happened when he was, if he was, trying to pull Brown into the patrol car. If Brown was running was there a reason to kill him? I don't know.
I've said on multiple occasions I'm in a wait and see mode. I'll not make a judgment until all evidence is in. Of course I've swayed one way or the other according to what has been revealed at the time. _________________ Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.
Joined: 17 Nov 2007 Posts: 67714 Location: In a world where admitting to not knowing something is considered a great way to learn.
Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2014 1:10 pm Post subject:
shansen008 wrote:
Did you watch this LINK video Does this young lady sound less believable than the one you site as one you think more credible?
Yes i did. Im curious though why someone feels they need to lawyer up to tell the truth. Also it could just be a matter of perspective, but her video appears to begin after the other video, and from farther away. Im only going off of the videos themselves, i dont know the timing of either witnesses story. Also the first vid, even though it was not great english, seemed more detailed and articulate than this woman. She seems to be caught up emotionally, not really saying what happened, but more lamenting what happened. I understand she goes on TV to give her perspective, but the guy in the first vid is there giving his account minutes after it had just happened. IMO there is a difference of timing, and i still weight the first one as stronger for now.
Another person saying Wilson was at fault and you ask why she had a lawyer? She explained why she had a lawyer. Why question her having a lawyer? With or without one, why not weigh what she said and assign truth or untruth?
Do you believe Josie giving Darrens account of what happened? _________________ Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.
70% minority population, 75% white grand jury. Sounds about fair.
I'm not questioning the percent. My angst is in how McCulloch will present the evidence. Will he slant it or be fair.
It's my understanding evidence presented is secret. Will we ever know what he presented or how he presented it?
He'll be as good as Brad Pitt was in Sleepers. _________________ A banana is killed every time a terrible thread or post is made. Save the bananas. Stop creating terrible posts!
I just learned that Baden also investigated the MLK and JFK shootings...
He was also involved in the OJ trial.
He was in Orenthal's home with Henry Lee while evidence was being collected and they were awaiting OJ to return for a physical examination when he went on the Bronco chase. He was the first person that Larry King interviewed about the chase when it became braking nooz. (look what happens when you type BREAKING NEWS, btw)
This was the source of his his statement that it's likelier that two perps were involved in the Nicole/Ron murders. Very interesting clips, all, but not fully up'd on YT.
This is the segment from that disc re: JFK. He was the pathologist who was first to clarify a number of misconceptions about the evidence.
Joined: 15 Nov 2006 Posts: 19866 Location: Prarie & Manchester, high above the western sideline
Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2014 4:54 am Post subject:
Jeffs wrote:
C M B wrote:
jodeke wrote:
Just as, to use the term of a citizen of Ferguson, there are provocertures there, there are provocertures here on LG too. Don't feed the trolls.
Some are trolls, and some are well-meaning people who genuinely cannot understand that occasional mockery and centuries of enslavement, murder, and atrocity are not equal levels of hardship, and therefore lack the ability to feel appropriate levels of empathy for their fellow countrymens' struggle which prevents them from seeing why things the way they are.
I genuinely feel for anyone who has had to withstand enslavement, genocide, or any other unfair treatment for that matter. I also grant that there isn't complete equality in the Unite States today. However, while things may not be equal, and we should continue to strive for and hopefully someday achieve this equality, things are not nearly as bad as certain posters make it seem.
Yes, it is unfortunate that KBCB has been stopped by police officers because he is a black man driving an expensive car. It isn't right, and hopefully his children or his children's children won't have to experience it. However, being from a family that immigrated to the US because of the rampant and blatant antisemitism that we faced in Russia and Ukraine, I feel that examples such as this are not significant enough hardships to blame for anything and everything that goes wrong in one's life.
Let me clarify quickly that I am not insinuating that KBCB does this (I merely used him as an example since he shared that story). However, many African Americans blame "racism" for all of their struggles. Growing up as a Jewish girl in Ukraine was just as difficult for my mother, if not moreso, than what African American youth go through today. After finishing school with perfect grades, she had a professor change a score from years earlier so that she would not graduate as a distinguished scholar. She was unable to attend Medical school in Ukraine simply because they would not take Jewish students. These things were done openly, because nobody cared to stop them. My mother did not give up, and ultimately became a surgeon. She then moved to the United States, despite not speaking English, and knowing full well that she would essentially have to start from scratch, because she knew that her son would have a better life here. I will be forever grateful for the sacrifice she made for me.
My point here isn't to compare the hardships that different people have had. I am sure that most people here have had to overcome various things. That's just part of life. My point is that these hardships or inequalities should not define us. Aside from telling me some stories, no one in my family has ever complained about the hardships they have had to overcome, and they certainly haven't blamed them for anything that hasn't gone right in their lives. My mother and KBCB are great examples that, no matter the difficulties you must overcome, if you have the necessary desire and work ethic, you can reach your goals. As such, there are very few things that annoy me more than adults blaming anything and everything EXCEPT THEMSELVES for their inability to become productive members of society.
Anyways, I've digressed a bit, but I hope I've made my point at least. Just because I don't support people using "the 'cism" (RIP PNP 2014) as an excuse for everything that happens does not mean that I don't feel any empathy for those who have had to overcome hardships in their lives. I do, and I truly do wish that we can achieve equality someday. However, I feel like certain people have taken the role of the victim to such a degree that they feel that everyone is against them and is trying to keep them down. That simply isn't the case. The large number of people of other races supporting them is as good of an indication as anything.
Jeffs - thoughtful response, and it's interesting to hear your family's story...thank you sharing this.
I thought my stance could use some clarification. Please don't mistake me as someone who excuses the ills of any community, ills which are not limited to abusing the victim card... this disgusts me more than it does most other people.
My opinion speaks mostly to the ease and presumption with which people outside of a certain group (in this case, the poor black segment of our population) can simply insist that change and improvement must be exclusively fostered from within that poor black community, citing some other minority group's success in overcoming such a struggle, with the assessment that because one minority did it, blacks should've been able to do it with no excuses and similar degrees of difficulty. While it is irrevocably true that much of the change must come from inside the community, the principal problem remains: the cultures of crime and violence have been perpetuating themselves because of the desperate poverty inherent and unique to being black in the United States. Again, this is not a universal excuse for any one black individual or community's pratfalls as much as it is a reasonable perspective of how we arrived at this point in the first place. You stated that a person should not be able to open the grievance that someone else's misery from 100+ years ago directly affects his psyche, position, or day-to-day decisions in present society. Sensible, but I disagree. If you'll allow, let's modify the time allowance:
What about 50 years? Most indigent black people today have grandparents and great grandparents who weren't legally allowed to share the most basic amenities with this country's ethnic majority, let alone attend proper schools. In denying education to one generation, they effectively denied it to the following generations.
How about 30-40 years? The poor/uneducated kids raised by poor/uneducated parents were then subject to yet another of our All-American institutional disadvantages: our lovely War on Drugs™. Who is most vulnerable to falling into a drug habit? Broke, stupid people. Who was disproportionately broke and stupid? Blacks. Not only were they more likely to do drugs and get caught with them, the sentencing disparity for crack offenses vs. cocaine was at a 100:1 ratio. Quite literally, it was 100:1 as required by federal law in 1986.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_on_Drugs#Sentencing_disparities
Quote:
Persons convicted in federal court of possession of 5 grams of crack cocaine received a minimum mandatory sentence of 5 years in federal prison. On the other hand, possession of 500 grams of powder cocaine carries the same sentence.[54]HYPERLINK \l "cite_note-gates-of-injustice-55"[55] In 2010, the Fair Sentencing Act cut the sentencing disparity to 18:1
I just learned that it's still at 18:1...today! What?!? Yikes.
School segregation and The War on Drugs™ birthed some of the most awful residuals that we have all come to know and love, such as single-motherhood, street gangs, thug worship, and majority-black prisons.
How about 20-25 years? Present-day inner city black life is proliferated by people who were raised by at least one parent figure, if they even had one at all, with membership to at least 2 of the following categories:
-uneducated
-poor
-incarcerated criminal
-gang member
-single mother
-drug addict
How many of these traits should we reasonably expect the current generation of ghetto black youths to be able to avoid inheriting?
Let's all enjoy a summary of the black experience in this country. American colonists needed cheap manual labor. Well cheap doesn't get much cheaper than free, right? Sweet! So we exploited the African slave trade in the 1600s and it stimulated the (bleep) out of our economy. Stimulated, hell, it was our economy. Millions of of slaves were murdered, millions more were tortured and dehumanized. Almost all were born and buried as property. Fast forward a couple of centuries. Some liberal a-hole took away our economic freedoms by giving actual freedom to these negroes. Even after emancipation and abolition, blacks had to deal with nationally-created legacy of inferiority, both perceived and implied, which has yet to be resolved. Over the next 100 years we gradually took the boot off of their necks. We granted them 1/1 personhood--how generous of us. Gave them the right to vote, kindly granted them permission to choose their seats on buses, and then finally allowed them to attend our schools.
It frustrates me to no end when some divv attempts to encapsulate all of this tragic history into a half-assed mulligan whenever a black guy shoots someone else over a pair of Yeezies, or cry RACISM! in a lazy excuse for any other given collection of boorish ghetto behavior. However, it's not nearly as audacious to me as when immigrants cite their own hardships--which are significant, please understand, but not close to equal when stipulating for American historical context--to qualify some expression of disgust or resentment towards blacks and their mysterious inability to somehow get with it. I've observed this apercu made explicit time and time again by immigrant members of most other minority groups: Jews, Chinese, Vietnamese, Armenians, Filipinos (my parents), Koreans, even African blacks. They come to this country, spend some remedial time in the inner city while they gain footing in order to move on up, have a couple of less-than-wholesome personal experiences with urban black transgression, and then join the rest of the country in not only loathing blacks but also being cynical of any policy suggesting to accomodate them specifically. We insist that they get it together but expect them to do without "handouts". Very, very easy to do from a removed perspective...even I'm guilty of letting myself brim with contempt whenever I view the latest knockout game video, or when a mope robs a news crew covering the manifestation of this very plight (https://vid.me/s61). It's certainly easier than considering that maybe the current state of "urban" black culture is a mere snapshot of a people's movement through time and history, who not so long ago truly started from the bottom...more figuratively, beneath the bottom. When we look at the snapshot we see the rampant crime and violence, with a success story here and there, and either miss or ignore all of the previous pictures. No other American minority group can podium at the Olympics of suffering as much as blacks will. They've been running a relay race through time, but instead of batons, they've been passing heavy, government issue sacks of (bleep) since the beginning, and it's damned difficult for us as non-blacks to truly behold the psychology that comes with this living through this. Many blacks were able to opt-out of the suck at various points in this timeline, through some proportion of good fortune and dilligence, and generations of those families have propsered ever since. But according to civic statistics, such as crime and education, an appalling number of them are still at the bottom. We support the Cosbys and the Degrasse Tysons while offering little mercy to the Iversons and Ain'tNobodyGotTimeforDats.
I hope you won't reject this reply outright, Jeffs. It might sound like hot air to you. I do hope you at least read the whole thing and know that I stand to gain no benefit by sensationalizing someone else's plight, or changing the way you think and feel about this subject. _________________ http://chickhearn.ytmnd.com/
Joined: 15 Sep 2012 Posts: 29338 Location: La La Land
Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2014 5:23 am Post subject:
C M B wrote:
Jeffs wrote:
C M B wrote:
jodeke wrote:
Just as, to use the term of a citizen of Ferguson, there are provocertures there, there are provocertures here on LG too. Don't feed the trolls.
Some are trolls, and some are well-meaning people who genuinely cannot understand that occasional mockery and centuries of enslavement, murder, and atrocity are not equal levels of hardship, and therefore lack the ability to feel appropriate levels of empathy for their fellow countrymens' struggle which prevents them from seeing why things the way they are.
I genuinely feel for anyone who has had to withstand enslavement, genocide, or any other unfair treatment for that matter. I also grant that there isn't complete equality in the Unite States today. However, while things may not be equal, and we should continue to strive for and hopefully someday achieve this equality, things are not nearly as bad as certain posters make it seem.
Yes, it is unfortunate that KBCB has been stopped by police officers because he is a black man driving an expensive car. It isn't right, and hopefully his children or his children's children won't have to experience it. However, being from a family that immigrated to the US because of the rampant and blatant antisemitism that we faced in Russia and Ukraine, I feel that examples such as this are not significant enough hardships to blame for anything and everything that goes wrong in one's life.
Let me clarify quickly that I am not insinuating that KBCB does this (I merely used him as an example since he shared that story). However, many African Americans blame "racism" for all of their struggles. Growing up as a Jewish girl in Ukraine was just as difficult for my mother, if not moreso, than what African American youth go through today. After finishing school with perfect grades, she had a professor change a score from years earlier so that she would not graduate as a distinguished scholar. She was unable to attend Medical school in Ukraine simply because they would not take Jewish students. These things were done openly, because nobody cared to stop them. My mother did not give up, and ultimately became a surgeon. She then moved to the United States, despite not speaking English, and knowing full well that she would essentially have to start from scratch, because she knew that her son would have a better life here. I will be forever grateful for the sacrifice she made for me.
My point here isn't to compare the hardships that different people have had. I am sure that most people here have had to overcome various things. That's just part of life. My point is that these hardships or inequalities should not define us. Aside from telling me some stories, no one in my family has ever complained about the hardships they have had to overcome, and they certainly haven't blamed them for anything that hasn't gone right in their lives. My mother and KBCB are great examples that, no matter the difficulties you must overcome, if you have the necessary desire and work ethic, you can reach your goals. As such, there are very few things that annoy me more than adults blaming anything and everything EXCEPT THEMSELVES for their inability to become productive members of society.
Anyways, I've digressed a bit, but I hope I've made my point at least. Just because I don't support people using "the 'cism" (RIP PNP 2014) as an excuse for everything that happens does not mean that I don't feel any empathy for those who have had to overcome hardships in their lives. I do, and I truly do wish that we can achieve equality someday. However, I feel like certain people have taken the role of the victim to such a degree that they feel that everyone is against them and is trying to keep them down. That simply isn't the case. The large number of people of other races supporting them is as good of an indication as anything.
Jeffs - thoughtful response, and it's interesting to hear your family's story...thank you sharing this.
I thought my stance could use some clarification. Please don't mistake me as someone who excuses the ills of any community, ills which are not limited to abusing the victim card... this disgusts me more than it does most other people.
My opinion speaks mostly to the ease and presumption with which people outside of a certain group (in this case, the poor black segment of our population) can simply insist that change and improvement must be exclusively fostered from within that poor black community, citing some other minority group's success in overcoming such a struggle, with the assessment that because one minority did it, blacks should've been able to do it with no excuses and similar degrees of difficulty. While it is irrevocably true that much of the change must come from inside the community, the principal problem remains: the cultures of crime and violence have been perpetuating themselves because of the desperate poverty inherent and unique to being black in the United States. Again, this is not a universal excuse for any one black individual or community's pratfalls as much as it is a reasonable perspective of how we arrived at this point in the first place. You stated that a person should not be able to open the grievance that someone else's misery from 100+ years ago directly affects his psyche, position, or day-to-day decisions in present society. Sensible, but I disagree. If you'll allow, let's modify the time allowance:
What about 50 years? Most indigent black people today have grandparents and great grandparents who weren't legally allowed to share the most basic amenities with this country's ethnic majority, let alone attend proper schools. In denying education to one generation, they effectively denied it to the following generations.
How about 30-40 years? The poor/uneducated kids raised by poor/uneducated parents were then subject to yet another of our All-American institutional disadvantages: our lovely War on Drugs™. Who is most vulnerable to falling into a drug habit? Broke, stupid people. Who was disproportionately broke and stupid? Blacks. Not only were they more likely to do drugs and get caught with them, the sentencing disparity for crack offenses vs. cocaine was at a 100:1 ratio. Quite literally, it was 100:1 as required by federal law in 1986.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_on_Drugs#Sentencing_disparities
Quote:
Persons convicted in federal court of possession of 5 grams of crack cocaine received a minimum mandatory sentence of 5 years in federal prison. On the other hand, possession of 500 grams of powder cocaine carries the same sentence.[54]HYPERLINK \l "cite_note-gates-of-injustice-55"[55] In 2010, the Fair Sentencing Act cut the sentencing disparity to 18:1
I just learned that it's still at 18:1...today! What?!? Yikes.
School segregation and The War on Drugs™ birthed some of the most awful residuals that we have all come to know and love, such as single-motherhood, street gangs, thug worship, and majority-black prisons.
How about 20-25 years? Present-day inner city black life is proliferated by people who were raised by at least one parent figure, if they even had one at all, with membership to at least 2 of the following categories:
-uneducated
-poor
-incarcerated criminal
-gang member
-single mother
-drug addict
How many of these traits should we reasonably expect the current generation of ghetto black youths to be able to avoid inheriting?
Let's all enjoy a summary of the black experience in this country. American colonists needed cheap manual labor. Well cheap doesn't get much cheaper than free, right? Sweet! So we exploited the African slave trade in the 1600s and it stimulated the (bleep) out of our economy. Stimulated, hell, it was our economy. Millions of of slaves were murdered, millions more were tortured and dehumanized. Almost all were born and buried as property. Fast forward a couple of centuries. Some liberal a-hole took away our economic freedoms by giving actual freedom to these negroes. Even after emancipation and abolition, blacks had to deal with nationally-created legacy of inferiority, both perceived and implied, which has yet to be resolved. Over the next 100 years we gradually took the boot off of their necks. We granted them 1/1 personhood--how generous of us. Gave them the right to vote, kindly granted them permission to choose their seats on buses, and then finally allowed them to attend our schools.
It frustrates me to no end when some divv attempts to encapsulate all of this tragic history into a half-assed mulligan whenever a black guy shoots someone else over a pair of Yeezies, or cry RACISM! in a lazy excuse for any other given collection of boorish ghetto behavior. However, it's not nearly as audacious to me as when immigrants cite their own hardships--which are significant, please understand, but not close to equal when stipulating for American historical context--to qualify some expression of disgust or resentment towards blacks and their mysterious inability to somehow get with it. I've observed this apercu made explicit time and time again by immigrant members of most other minority groups: Jews, Chinese, Vietnamese, Armenians, Filipinos (my parents), Koreans, even African blacks. They come to this country, spend some remedial time in the inner city while they gain footing in order to move on up, have a couple of less-than-wholesome personal experiences with urban black transgression, and then join the rest of the country in not only loathing blacks but also being cynical of any policy suggesting to accomodate them specifically. We insist that they get it together but expect them to do without "handouts". Very, very easy to do from a removed perspective...even I'm guilty of letting myself brim with contempt whenever I view the latest knockout game video, or when a mope robs a news crew covering the manifestation of this very plight (https://vid.me/s61). It's certainly easier than considering that maybe the current state of "urban" black culture is a mere snapshot of a people's movement through time and history, who not so long ago truly started from the bottom...more figuratively, beneath the bottom. When we look at the snapshot we see the rampant crime and violence, with a success story here and there, and either miss or ignore all of the previous pictures. No other American minority group can podium at the Olympics of suffering as much as blacks will. They've been running a relay race through time, but instead of batons, they've been passing heavy, government issue sacks of (bleep) since the beginning, and it's damned difficult for us as non-blacks to truly behold the psychology that comes with this living through this. Many blacks were able to opt-out of the suck at various points in this timeline, through some proportion of good fortune and dilligence, and generations of those families have propsered ever since. But according to civic statistics, such as crime and education, an appalling number of them are still at the bottom. We support the Cosbys and the Degrasse Tysons while offering little mercy to the Iversons and Ain'tNobodyGotTimeforDats.
I hope you won't reject this reply outright, Jeffs. It might sound like hot air to you. I do hope you at least read the whole thing and know that I stand to gain no benefit by sensationalizing someone else's plight, or changing the way you think and feel about this subject.
But...but...the president is black. Racism is over! LOL. Just kidding of course.
I completely agree with you CMB. My dad is a former child soldier and African immigrant who has made his own success in the States. My mom is a black american who can't say the same about her level of prosperity. Every family reunion the African side of my family condescends to the American side because of their lesser net worth (thanks to my paternal grandfather being the first Minister of Education for a country). And the American side of my family mocks the African side for their ignorant (by definition) reverence for "the American Dream".
I am fortunate to have the economic advantages of a well-off immigrant father while maintaining my social awareness (due mainly to my upbringing by my black american mother). _________________ "Every hurt is a lesson, and every lesson makes you better”
I thought my stance could use some clarification. Please don't mistake me as someone who excuses the ills of any community, ills which are not limited to abusing the victim card... this disgusts me more than it does most other people.
My opinion speaks mostly to the ease and presumption with which people outside of a certain group (in this case, the poor black segment of our population) can simply insist that change and improvement must be exclusively fostered from within that poor black community, citing some other minority group's success in overcoming such a struggle, with the assessment that because one minority did it, blacks should've been able to do it with no excuses and similar degrees of difficulty. (snip)
Not too bad CMB. Not too bad. _________________ "A metronome keeps time by using a Ringo"
21 Numbers That Will Help You Understand Why Ferguson Is About More Than Michael Brown
This article displays numbers, not reasons, numbers. There are reasons that cause the numbers. Listing them will spark a debate I don't have the desire needed to indulge in such an exchange.
I posted this article because it has Ferguson numbers. _________________ Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.
Just as, to use the term of a citizen of Ferguson, there are provocertures there, there are provocertures here on LG too. Don't feed the trolls.
Some are trolls, and some are well-meaning people who genuinely cannot understand that occasional mockery and centuries of enslavement, murder, and atrocity are not equal levels of hardship, and therefore lack the ability to feel appropriate levels of empathy for their fellow countrymens' struggle which prevents them from seeing why things the way they are.
I genuinely feel for anyone who has had to withstand enslavement, genocide, or any other unfair treatment for that matter. I also grant that there isn't complete equality in the Unite States today. However, while things may not be equal, and we should continue to strive for and hopefully someday achieve this equality, things are not nearly as bad as certain posters make it seem.
Yes, it is unfortunate that KBCB has been stopped by police officers because he is a black man driving an expensive car. It isn't right, and hopefully his children or his children's children won't have to experience it. However, being from a family that immigrated to the US because of the rampant and blatant antisemitism that we faced in Russia and Ukraine, I feel that examples such as this are not significant enough hardships to blame for anything and everything that goes wrong in one's life.
Let me clarify quickly that I am not insinuating that KBCB does this (I merely used him as an example since he shared that story). However, many African Americans blame "racism" for all of their struggles. Growing up as a Jewish girl in Ukraine was just as difficult for my mother, if not moreso, than what African American youth go through today. After finishing school with perfect grades, she had a professor change a score from years earlier so that she would not graduate as a distinguished scholar. She was unable to attend Medical school in Ukraine simply because they would not take Jewish students. These things were done openly, because nobody cared to stop them. My mother did not give up, and ultimately became a surgeon. She then moved to the United States, despite not speaking English, and knowing full well that she would essentially have to start from scratch, because she knew that her son would have a better life here. I will be forever grateful for the sacrifice she made for me.
My point here isn't to compare the hardships that different people have had. I am sure that most people here have had to overcome various things. That's just part of life. My point is that these hardships or inequalities should not define us. Aside from telling me some stories, no one in my family has ever complained about the hardships they have had to overcome, and they certainly haven't blamed them for anything that hasn't gone right in their lives. My mother and KBCB are great examples that, no matter the difficulties you must overcome, if you have the necessary desire and work ethic, you can reach your goals. As such, there are very few things that annoy me more than adults blaming anything and everything EXCEPT THEMSELVES for their inability to become productive members of society.
Anyways, I've digressed a bit, but I hope I've made my point at least. Just because I don't support people using "the 'cism" (RIP PNP 2014) as an excuse for everything that happens does not mean that I don't feel any empathy for those who have had to overcome hardships in their lives. I do, and I truly do wish that we can achieve equality someday. However, I feel like certain people have taken the role of the victim to such a degree that they feel that everyone is against them and is trying to keep them down. That simply isn't the case. The large number of people of other races supporting them is as good of an indication as anything.
Jeffs - thoughtful response, and it's interesting to hear your family's story...thank you sharing this.
I thought my stance could use some clarification. Please don't mistake me as someone who excuses the ills of any community, ills which are not limited to abusing the victim card... this disgusts me more than it does most other people.
My opinion speaks mostly to the ease and presumption with which people outside of a certain group (in this case, the poor black segment of our population) can simply insist that change and improvement must be exclusively fostered from within that poor black community, citing some other minority group's success in overcoming such a struggle, with the assessment that because one minority did it, blacks should've been able to do it with no excuses and similar degrees of difficulty. While it is irrevocably true that much of the change must come from inside the community, the principal problem remains: the cultures of crime and violence have been perpetuating themselves because of the desperate poverty inherent and unique to being black in the United States. Again, this is not a universal excuse for any one black individual or community's pratfalls as much as it is a reasonable perspective of how we arrived at this point in the first place. You stated that a person should not be able to open the grievance that someone else's misery from 100+ years ago directly affects his psyche, position, or day-to-day decisions in present society. Sensible, but I disagree. If you'll allow, let's modify the time allowance:
What about 50 years? Most indigent black people today have grandparents and great grandparents who weren't legally allowed to share the most basic amenities with this country's ethnic majority, let alone attend proper schools. In denying education to one generation, they effectively denied it to the following generations.
How about 30-40 years? The poor/uneducated kids raised by poor/uneducated parents were then subject to yet another of our All-American institutional disadvantages: our lovely War on Drugs™. Who is most vulnerable to falling into a drug habit? Broke, stupid people. Who was disproportionately broke and stupid? Blacks. Not only were they more likely to do drugs and get caught with them, the sentencing disparity for crack offenses vs. cocaine was at a 100:1 ratio. Quite literally, it was 100:1 as required by federal law in 1986.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_on_Drugs#Sentencing_disparities
Quote:
Persons convicted in federal court of possession of 5 grams of crack cocaine received a minimum mandatory sentence of 5 years in federal prison. On the other hand, possession of 500 grams of powder cocaine carries the same sentence.[54]HYPERLINK \l "cite_note-gates-of-injustice-55"[55] In 2010, the Fair Sentencing Act cut the sentencing disparity to 18:1
I just learned that it's still at 18:1...today! What?!? Yikes.
School segregation and The War on Drugs™ birthed some of the most awful residuals that we have all come to know and love, such as single-motherhood, street gangs, thug worship, and majority-black prisons.
How about 20-25 years? Present-day inner city black life is proliferated by people who were raised by at least one parent figure, if they even had one at all, with membership to at least 2 of the following categories:
-uneducated
-poor
-incarcerated criminal
-gang member
-single mother
-drug addict
How many of these traits should we reasonably expect the current generation of ghetto black youths to be able to avoid inheriting?
Let's all enjoy a summary of the black experience in this country. American colonists needed cheap manual labor. Well cheap doesn't get much cheaper than free, right? Sweet! So we exploited the African slave trade in the 1600s and it stimulated the (bleep) out of our economy. Stimulated, hell, it was our economy. Millions of of slaves were murdered, millions more were tortured and dehumanized. Almost all were born and buried as property. Fast forward a couple of centuries. Some liberal a-hole took away our economic freedoms by giving actual freedom to these negroes. Even after emancipation and abolition, blacks had to deal with nationally-created legacy of inferiority, both perceived and implied, which has yet to be resolved. Over the next 100 years we gradually took the boot off of their necks. We granted them 1/1 personhood--how generous of us. Gave them the right to vote, kindly granted them permission to choose their seats on buses, and then finally allowed them to attend our schools.
It frustrates me to no end when some divv attempts to encapsulate all of this tragic history into a half-assed mulligan whenever a black guy shoots someone else over a pair of Yeezies, or cry RACISM! in a lazy excuse for any other given collection of boorish ghetto behavior. However, it's not nearly as audacious to me as when immigrants cite their own hardships--which are significant, please understand, but not close to equal when stipulating for American historical context--to qualify some expression of disgust or resentment towards blacks and their mysterious inability to somehow get with it. I've observed this apercu made explicit time and time again by immigrant members of most other minority groups: Jews, Chinese, Vietnamese, Armenians, Filipinos (my parents), Koreans, even African blacks. They come to this country, spend some remedial time in the inner city while they gain footing in order to move on up, have a couple of less-than-wholesome personal experiences with urban black transgression, and then join the rest of the country in not only loathing blacks but also being cynical of any policy suggesting to accomodate them specifically. We insist that they get it together but expect them to do without "handouts". Very, very easy to do from a removed perspective...even I'm guilty of letting myself brim with contempt whenever I view the latest knockout game video, or when a mope robs a news crew covering the manifestation of this very plight (https://vid.me/s61). It's certainly easier than considering that maybe the current state of "urban" black culture is a mere snapshot of a people's movement through time and history, who not so long ago truly started from the bottom...more figuratively, beneath the bottom. When we look at the snapshot we see the rampant crime and violence, with a success story here and there, and either miss or ignore all of the previous pictures. No other American minority group can podium at the Olympics of suffering as much as blacks will. They've been running a relay race through time, but instead of batons, they've been passing heavy, government issue sacks of (bleep) since the beginning, and it's damned difficult for us as non-blacks to truly behold the psychology that comes with this living through this. Many blacks were able to opt-out of the suck at various points in this timeline, through some proportion of good fortune and dilligence, and generations of those families have propsered ever since. But according to civic statistics, such as crime and education, an appalling number of them are still at the bottom. We support the Cosbys and the Degrasse Tysons while offering little mercy to the Iversons and Ain'tNobodyGotTimeforDats.
I hope you won't reject this reply outright, Jeffs. It might sound like hot air to you. I do hope you at least read the whole thing and know that I stand to gain no benefit by sensationalizing someone else's plight, or changing the way you think and feel about this subject.
Wow CMB. I'm VERY impressed. _________________ “It took many years of vomiting up all the filth I’d been taught about myself, and half-believed, before I was able to walk on the earth as though I had a right to be here.”
― James Baldwin, Collected Essays
Joined: 15 Sep 2012 Posts: 29338 Location: La La Land
Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2014 5:38 pm Post subject:
Great read for those who think we live in a post-racial America.
http://www.salon.com/2014/08/24/beyond_ferguson_5_glaring_signs_that_were_not_living_in_a_post_racial_society/
It is an opinion piece but it is substantiated by significant data from peer-reviewed studies. _________________ "Every hurt is a lesson, and every lesson makes you better”
I would think there are three distinct and unique periods here, three periods where Wilson's decisions to use lethal force could be either right or wrong: in and around the car, as Brown runs away, and when he turns.
If Wilson were to shoot Brown during the alleged struggle for the gun, or Brown was the aggressor in the struggle, I believe there would be no question that shooting Brown would be justifiable.
As this concluded and Brown ran off, the immediacy of the threat to Wilson (or anyone else) has been eliminated or greatly mitigated. Now if Wilson were to shoot at Brown as he runs away, he is likely guilty of excessive force (that is, unless he claims he was firing warning shoots, which might be in violation of procedure itself), and in violation of procedure, but, clearly, is in violation of the constitution, per Tennessee v. Garner: "He or she may use deadly force to prevent escape only if the officer has probable cause to believe that the suspect poses a significant threat of death or serious physical injury to the officer or others."
As this concluded, after Brown stops and turns around, right and wrong all depends on what happened next. If he turned around with his hands up and made no threatening moves, then I can't see how this isn't excessive force or even culpable homicide. If Brown bull-rushes him, then Wilson is justified in shooting and even killing him.
"But in making an arrest or preventing escape, a law enforcement officer is not entitled to use deadly force, that is, force which he knows will create a substantial risk of causing death or serious physical injury, unless he reasonably believes that the person being arrested is attempting to escape by use of a deadly weapon or that the person may endanger life or inflict serious physical injury unless arrested without delay." _________________ "A metronome keeps time by using a Ringo"
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
Save the bananas. Stop creating terrible posts!
