And please try not to use Kobe as your basis for comparison. Compared to Kobe, very few people are "mentally tough."
Getting cramps in an NBA Finals game because there is no A/C is NOT being mentally tough.
This is probably the worst example of him not having mental toughness. I've had bad cramps before and there's nothing you can do to will yourself to go on. The pain is manageable but the muscle simply doesn't work.
LeBron doesn't give off that vibe that winning the game is a life or death thing for him. That's where I think he differs from a lot of the greats. I don't know if its just perception.
I have had a terrible cramp in my leg, from my thigh to my calf, and even partially on the calf of my other leg. It hurt and the muscle was so tight i felt that even after recovering from the initial cramp, it was going to cramp again. And yet i still managed to find a way to run enough to keep playing and help my team.
Now i'm no highly trained athlete just play basketball for fun, but in Lebron's case he is a highly trained athlete, has the best trainers for him, and not only that it was in a moment his team needed him. Instead he decided to sit out and let his team lose. By the way I didn't need to be carried off like lebron did.
Kobe is the most mentally tough of any people I have ever seen/known.
Try shooting free throws without an achilles.
Try shooting in general with every finger in your hand broken.
Try even jumping with nerve issues in your legs.
Try even standing up while you have a concussion.
You won't be able to do any of those. But Kobe did.
I think Kobe is mentally tougher and more willful than MJ, but I don't think I have the proof to back it up.
I'm sure MJ supporters can list all things that "prove" their point too. But it's pointless. Kobe/MJ are in that rarified air IMO for NBA players in terms of mental toughness.
Actually, as I think about the evidence, I'm going to backtrack. Kobe is mentally and physically tougher than MJ was. When you take into account the injuries, how he played so well on so many injuries, how many incredibly tough shots he made and his taking the ball away from D12 in game 4 and then making those two FT's on the torn achilles, it's easy for me.
two words: "FLU GAME"
"HUNG OVER"
Gets it.
Considering how much trouble I have getting out of bed on Sunday mornings, I'd still say this is impressive.
Nobody who ever played the game was mentally tougher than Kobe.
Yep _________________ “It took many years of vomiting up all the filth I’d been taught about myself, and half-believed, before I was able to walk on the earth as though I had a right to be here.”
― James Baldwin, Collected Essays
Nobody who ever played the game was mentally tougher than Kobe.
Yep
I beg to differ. Will2Win had cramps in both legs yet still helped his team win a pick up basketball game. Note: He didn't even get carried off like Lebron did and instead walked off the court on his own ala Kobe.
I agree Kobe is the most mentally tough player I've ever seen. Going to trial hearings for a criminal case that could land him in jail for years and he flies there and back the same day, and drops his best games of the season then. To me that is when I knew Kobe truly was on a different level mentally.
That said, I think MJ right now rightfully should go down as the better ranked player.
Joined: 02 Jun 2009 Posts: 2415 Location: Far from home
Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 6:42 am Post subject:
TooMuchMajicBuss wrote:
Nobody who ever played the game was mentally tougher than Kobe.
An attractive assertion for Laker fans of course, but still an unprovable one and necessarily, an pretty unlikely one without great depth of analysis.
Jordan and Bill Russell may each represent stronger cases, if both game success and mental toughness must be joined hand-in-hand. But if success is not implicitly connected to mental toughness, it become very likely - not just possible - that dozens or more more mentally-tough but physically less capable players have played this game. Perhaps both Jerry West and Magic Johnson were more mentally tough. Perhaps Tim Duncan is. Perhaps Cap. Others too.
Here's one article that begins to stake out what comprises "mental toughness."
The problem here is what is the definition of "mental toughness?" If we can agree to a consensus definition of this it would aid in debating the issue.
I have no problem saying without question Kobe is the toughest when playing with an injury or pain threshold. _________________ From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals
Nobody who ever played the game was mentally tougher than Kobe.
An attractive assertion for Laker fans of course, but still an unprovable one and necessarily, an pretty unlikely one without great depth of analysis.
Jordan and Bill Russell may each represent stronger cases, if both game success and mental toughness must be joined hand-in-hand. But if success is not implicitly connected to mental toughness, it become very likely - not just possible - that dozens or more more mentally-tough but physically less capable players have played this game. Perhaps both Jerry West and Magic Johnson were more mentally tough. Perhaps Tim Duncan is. Perhaps Cap. Others too.
Here's one article that begins to stake out what comprises "mental toughness."
Far more likely that Kobe is the most mentally tough player in league history. _________________ “It took many years of vomiting up all the filth I’d been taught about myself, and half-believed, before I was able to walk on the earth as though I had a right to be here.”
― James Baldwin, Collected Essays
And please try not to use Kobe as your basis for comparison. Compared to Kobe, very few people are "mentally tough."
LBJ went to South Florida to win not one, not two, not three, not four, not five, but six championships. As soon as it became obvious that Miami was not going to win another championship, he "suddenly" got homesick, wrote a letter (which I highly doubt he actually penned himself) to the fans of Cleave-land and demanded to get more superstars no matter the cost which in this case was Wiggens. Kobe will play with anyone, he will try to make the best of it this year. LBJ knows he doesn't have a chance unless he has a ton of talent around him and the Cavs are going to do everything they can to stock up on vets and available talent so he can "make a run for the ring" Rather than seeing how much potential Kevin Love has in the tank or how amazing Wiggins is, I am very sure he was pushing to get the trade done cause he doesn't want to look like a sub playoff team. No mental toughness at all. He crumples at the thought of not being the darling of the NBA. Just my opinion, and I have dogged him most of his career, but I have never seen anything in him that looks like mental toughness. _________________ This Laker Organization has not yet hit bottom. It is moving there quickly, and I suspect this year we will see zero talent coming to the Lakers and we will trade away Kuz and BI for old vets in the hopes of giving LeBronze some scapegoats.
The problem here is what is the definition of "mental toughness?" If we can agree to a consensus definition of this it would aid in debating the issue.
I have no problem saying without question Kobe is the toughest when playing with an injury or pain threshold.
Agreed. Mental toughness is "mind over body." Willing your body to do what it doesn't want to. Refusing to give in. Remaining competitive without losing confidence. IMO nobody tops Kobe in any of these categories.
There's no differentiating MJ and Kobe except objective accomplishment (i.e. rings, stats, etc.). To declare one is mentally tougher than the other is foolish. There's no telling what either would have accomplished had their situation been reversed. I've never seen either of them concede an inch to an opponent and I've never seen two more fierce competitors who hated losing more and I can't recall seeing either of them (bleep) out in a series the way Lebron has (and I'm talking about the finals with the mavs--NOT the cramps).
Joined: 23 Aug 2004 Posts: 19482 Location: The X-Files
Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2014 7:50 am Post subject: Re: So, I'm trying to juxtapose this.......
KobeBryantCliffordBrown wrote:
I mean, you could argue that MJ was a better athlete and had bigger hands, and you could argue that Kobe had better handles, footwork, shooting ability and ability to make tough shots, but to argue that somehow Kobe was less mentally tough than Kobe is just stupid, stupid and stupid even moreso......stupid
Kobe is the most mentally tough of any people I have ever seen/known.
Try shooting free throws without an achilles.
Try shooting in general with every finger in your hand broken.
Try even jumping with nerve issues in your legs.
Try even standing up while you have a concussion.
You won't be able to do any of those. But Kobe did.
I think Kobe is mentally tougher and more willful than MJ, but I don't think I have the proof to back it up.
I'm sure MJ supporters can list all things that "prove" their point too. But it's pointless. Kobe/MJ are in that rarified air IMO for NBA players in terms of mental toughness.
Actually, as I think about the evidence, I'm going to backtrack. Kobe is mentally and physically tougher than MJ was. When you take into account the injuries, how he played so well on so many injuries, how many incredibly tough shots he made and his taking the ball away from D12 in game 4 and then making those two FT's on the torn achilles, it's easy for me.
two words: "FLU GAME"
"HUNG OVER"
How About Balling out in Denver with a rape case on his mind...
There's no differentiating MJ and Kobe except objective accomplishment (i.e. rings, stats, etc.). To declare one is mentally tougher than the other is foolish. There's no telling what either would have accomplished had their situation been reversed. I've never seen either of them concede an inch to an opponent and I've never seen two more fierce competitors who hated losing more and I can't recall seeing either of them (bleep) out in a series the way Lebron has (and I'm talking about the finals with the mavs--NOT the cramps).
Yeah I've never understood how people are able to analyze the pain and struggles a player is playing through with any amount of confidence. Unless you're in another guys shoes, it's impossible to know how much he is toughing things out. There can be times that a highly publicized injury really isn't causing a player any pain. There can also be times that a player is playing through extreme pain but never lets anyone know about it.
There are obviously some guys that are well known for toughing it out in any conditions but ranking one players toughness over another's is difficult to do from the outside.
Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 9:35 am Post subject: Re: So, I'm trying to juxtapose this.......
KobeBryantCliffordBrown wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Jgar3X0A0s
These clowns saying that MJ was mentally tougher than Kobe....
I mean, you could argue that MJ was a better athlete and had bigger hands, and you could argue that Kobe had better handles, footwork, shooting ability and ability to make tough shots, but to argue that somehow Kobe was less mentally tough than Kobe is just stupid, stupid and stupid even moreso......stupid
How do you possibly gauge that? There is not unit of measure or method to quantify "mental toughness" Its subjective.
Joined: 14 Apr 2001 Posts: 144469 Location: The Gold Coast
Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 11:11 am Post subject:
yinoma2001 wrote:
So, how do people quantify "mental toughness?" How can you prove one player is more "tough" than another? I don't think this worth losing any sleep over. Both are tough as nails in my book.
Exactly, just another undefinable term fans use to make their guy sound better. _________________ RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023.
Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2014 8:04 pm Post subject: Re: So, I'm trying to juxtapose this.......
This is something that is just pretty much anybody's personal opinion, too hard to quantify.
KobeBryantCliffordBrown wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Jgar3X0A0s
These clowns saying that MJ was mentally tougher than Kobe....
I mean, you could argue that MJ was a better athlete and had bigger hands, and you could argue that Kobe had better handles, footwork, shooting ability and ability to make tough shots, but to argue that somehow Kobe was less mentally tough than Kobe is just stupid, stupid and stupid even moreso......stupid
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Gets it.
...confusing juxtapose... 
