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venturalakersfan
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 Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2014 1:36 pm Post subject: |
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I disagree, I think the FO did make progress this offseason on players that will be important pieces in the future.
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2014 1:37 pm Post subject: |
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| activeverb wrote: | A lot of this "are we rebuilding" debate seems like semantics to me.
Do we currently have a truly competitive team? No.
Do we have a group of guys who won't embarrass us and might squeeze into the playoffs? Yeah.
Did we accomplish what we wanted in the offseason, getting important guys who will be around when we grow into a competitive team? No.
Did we mortgage our future getting guys for the short term who will hurt us in the long run? No.
Are we rebuilding? Yes -- in the sense we realize the team we have now is not close to the team we want in the future.
Are we rebuilding? No - not in the sense that we made much progress to the team we want in the future. |
Agree. I know we are accustomed to a more simpler "championship or non-championship team" binary analysis. We are simply adding degrees to the non-championship team analysis IMO. Well put.
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Omar Little
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| Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2014 1:57 pm Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | 24 wrote: | As you well know, the smug is not in the opinion, but in the way it is relentlessly presented as the only rational one while claiming injury when opposing views do the same, preemptively taking pot shots, and then trying to lawyer me around some with a little misdirection when I point that out. I can't speak for the New Jersey courts, but I require a bit higher level of bs in order to become baffled...  |
I'm fine with opposing views, but this board clearly has rules about ad hominem attacks, unless you as mod support that being a fair way to dialogue.
I don't get "relentless presented as the only rational" angle since it appears that the vast majority of prognosticators (drawn from both crowds) have stuck to their respective positions. I'm fine with that.
And I agree with you. Let's talk about the season in hand rather than esoteric notions of "continuums." And to be focused, this thread isn't even about this season; it's a review of the off season. 
I get what you're saying but I think you're being a bit partisan about it and going after one side more than the other. But hey, you the mod! |
I get accused all the time of being partisan on both sides of the same issue (for example, I am too pro Kobe and too anti kobe). That's mostly because most folks don't see the dialogue with the opposing view, just themselves being picked on.
Then again, the Pollyanna people are a bit more... Well... Positive in their outlook, so I can see why we might spend a bit more actual time on negativity. But overall, I'm mostly after everyone having a right to an opinion, agree or disagree. Truth be known, I tend to cut more slack to those I disagree with.
Btw, kind of hard for me to talk about ad hominem stuff without discussing ad hominem stuff, ya know?
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greenfrog
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| Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2014 2:07 pm Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | Spending $24 mil on Kobe instead of some retread is to keep the turnstiles moving. You might think he is some random 36 year old player, but he will still be a top player in this league. I guess you guys thought we were in limbo in the 90's when we were amassing talent that we turned into players that eventually won a title. That is rebuilding, same as the team is doing now. The idea that a team has to suck and be in the lottery every season to be rebuilding is a poor idea. |
Outside of the summer of Shaq and Kobe, almost nothing from the 90's "rebuild" had an impact on the Lakers eventual championships. Jones was flipped for Rice who was a non-factor his entire time here. Van Exel likewise was cashed in for essentially Travis Knight. Elden Cambell? Anthony Peeler? Ceballos was turned into Horry but he's exactly the type of player we didn't go after this offseason. What developing talent are you talking about? |
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venturalakersfan
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| Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2014 2:13 pm Post subject: |
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Rice, Ho Grant, Foster, Horry just off the top of my head. All had roles in winning titles.
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greenfrog
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| Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2014 2:29 pm Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | Rice, Ho Grant, Foster, Horry just off the top of my head. All had roles in winning titles. |
An over-the-hill Ho Grant was part of the 90's talent movement? Rice was benched in the 4th in favor of Rick Fox, and the team actually improved in the playoffs the next season without him. |
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2014 2:42 pm Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | So spending $3 mil on Boozer says they aren't rebuilding? No way I can agree with that, that was solid basketball and business decision. Who else were they going to spend that money on? And what books says you can't rebuild and make the playoffs? Am I the only one who remembers the 1990's? Or were they not rebuilding then? The Laker management just isn't as stupid as that of the 76ers and refuse to alienate their fans while rebuilding. |
Spending $24M on a 36 year old player coming off an unsuccessful return from an achilles tear is what makes it not a true rebuild.
That's why we're sort of in limbo to yinoma's point.
And you can be in a rebuild and make the playoffs. But in a rebuild, making the playoffs isn't the priority. It's icing on the cake. In a rebuild, you're looking to identify pieces you can build around to win it all.
Just because people aren't giving the offseason an A, doesn't mean it was an F either. |
Spending $24 mil on Kobe instead of some retread is to keep the turnstiles moving. You might think he is some random 36 year old player, but he will still be a top player in this league. I guess you guys thought we were in limbo in the 90's when we were amassing talent that we turned into players that eventually won a title. That is rebuilding, same as the team is doing now. The idea that a team has to suck and be in the lottery every season to be rebuilding is a poor idea. |
I don't disagree as to the reason that we resigned Kobe. But he represents a massive portion of the overall cap. So if the reason was to have him be a cornerstone of a rebuild, and that was the reason, then that's one thing.
But he was, as you stated, signed simply to keep the turnstiles moving. That's not what you do in a rebuild.
Look, I get it. I get why the Lakers weren't ready to move on from Kobe. I'm glad they didn't (although I do wish the cap hit to do so were smaller) but that's why people say we are essentially in limbo. Some of the moves we made were intended to build for the future and some of the moves weren't. Kobe's extension wasn't done with the future in mind, it was done to keep the turnstiles moving. Once they made that move, they had to try to build a contender. That plan failed. So they had to change course with what they had left. Limbo. |
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2014 7:43 pm Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | The Lakers are rebuilding. I don't see how that is so hard to figure out. |
Mitch disagrees with you. |
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LakerSanity
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| Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2014 9:01 pm Post subject: |
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| ringfinger wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | The Lakers are rebuilding. I don't see how that is so hard to figure out. |
Mitch disagrees with you. |
Not necessarily. He just publicly disagrees. Who knows what he thinks privately. Call it rebuilding or retooling, we clearly are moving parts around to try to become more than we are. Maybe we have some players who might ultimately be part of the foundation of a championship team, but, if there is a championship team to be had in the future, about 90% still likely has to be built.
I think Mitch's approach is that the Lakers have to be more competitive than last year. The Lakers can't have another season like last year where the only hope was a high draft pick. There is a lot more to keep fans interested this year (Kobe's return, Randle, Clarkson, Lin, Kelly's development and even the new shiny toy that is Boozer) and the team should be better this year. We may not be a play off team, but we'll be more competitive and definitely more intriguing.
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Sat Sep 27, 2014 5:46 am Post subject: |
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| LakerSanity wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | The Lakers are rebuilding. I don't see how that is so hard to figure out. |
Mitch disagrees with you. |
Not necessarily. He just publicly disagrees. Who knows what he thinks privately. Call it rebuilding or retooling, we clearly are moving parts around to try to become more than we are. Maybe we have some players who might ultimately be part of the foundation of a championship team, but, if there is a championship team to be had in the future, about 90% still likely has to be built.
I think Mitch's approach is that the Lakers have to be more competitive than last year. The Lakers can't have another season like last year where the only hope was a high draft pick. There is a lot more to keep fans interested this year (Kobe's return, Randle, Clarkson, Lin, Kelly's development and even the new shiny toy that is Boozer) and the team should be better this year. We may not be a play off team, but we'll be more competitive and definitely more intriguing. |
Well, I think it is pretty clear that the original plan was not to rebuild at all. And since they were not able to do that via acquisitions of Lebron/Melo/Gasol, their hand was forced in to going another route.
But that's why some folks have been calling the current team's state "in limbo". (Which I agree with). To me, I take that as having some of the pieces/moves that indicate a rebuilding effort and then some that don't.
I do agree we'll be better than we were last year. The return of Kobe alone warrants that. And I am very excited about the young prospects we have, specifically Randle and Clarkson but also Lin and Davis.
We completely bombed it on the original plan but we recovered. That's why I gave a C+. For me it's hard to justify a grade of A, when you were trying to do one thing, couldn't get it done and so you were forced to only other option available. |
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gumby
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| Posted: Sat Sep 27, 2014 5:52 am Post subject: |
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OP's analysis was correct for the most part. But there in no way should have been an A on their grade though.
Every year until they do get a game changing player will not allow them to be an A. It would have to take the collection of lesser quality players and draft picks equalling that game changing player through experience and playing together as a team.
Getting Shaq was an A. Getting Pau (if it happened in the offseason) would be an A.
Getting Durant in a couple years equals an A.
Getting LeBron back in the draft (if that were possible) would have equalled an A.
Everything else on a regular scale is below that. So we all have to grade on the curve of budget and particular situation this team is in.
In the end, a C on the straight scale, B on a curve.
Bye.
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B_P
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| Posted: Sat Sep 27, 2014 6:56 am Post subject: |
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| LakerSanity wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | The Lakers are rebuilding. I don't see how that is so hard to figure out. |
Mitch disagrees with you. |
Not necessarily. He just publicly disagrees. Who knows what he thinks privately. Call it rebuilding or retooling, we clearly are moving parts around to try to become more than we are. Maybe we have some players who might ultimately be part of the foundation of a championship team, but, if there is a championship team to be had in the future, about 90% still likely has to be built.
I think Mitch's approach is that the Lakers have to be more competitive than last year. The Lakers can't have another season like last year where the only hope was a high draft pick. There is a lot more to keep fans interested this year (Kobe's return, Randle, Clarkson, Lin, Kelly's development and even the new shiny toy that is Boozer) and the team should be better this year. We may not be a play off team, but we'll be more competitive and definitely more intriguing. |
Exact-a-mundo, shortcake.
If we still had MDA, then I'd say we were in limbo.
But now we have B moving us in a much better basketball direction. The overall vibe/energy feels waaaay better. It's feeling "Lakers" again.
And we have the promise of Randle (and I expect plenty of mistakes/teachable moments).
This current group of players may not be championship-caliber (or even playoff-caliber), but there is a good, new/old-school Lakers' culture being put into place - and we will make moves to acquire players that fit that culture.
We may not make the playoffs this year, but we definitely gonna be better than last year.
Last year was when we "bottomed out."
IMO, we're clearly on the upswing now.
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