X's and O's Discussion (With Video)
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44TheLogo
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2014 8:29 am    Post subject:

fiendishoc wrote:
KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
44TheLogo wrote:
KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
24 wrote:
I think Randle's shot is already better than Griffin's at the same point, which of course is damning with faint praise, but still. I think his handles and his footwork are better at the same point as well. Blake has that (pre injury) Amare, Antonio McDyess type elevation that I don't see in Randle. He can get up, he's just not an effortless high wire act like those guys. But that base, that first step, those handles, being a lefty, and understanding how to bump and clear space, those are all well ahead of what Blake had. Randle's ceiling is higher than current Blake IMO.


beautiful to hear. On a side note, was it you 24, who has mentioned previously how Randle would really benefit from a PnR point guard? I want to see that action happen. I can also picture him succeeding that way - he's so agile that i can picture him hop-stepping/spinning/ripping through once he receives the ball in the paint off the PnR. I think he is most successful scoring in the paint off the move, rather than posted up. So it could potentially be a really good play for him. And he has a good PG in Lin to execute it with.
Of course, Randle just has to improve his screen setting. which is a basic skill; but for one reason (conditioning IMO) he's unable to just stand there and set a solid goddeng screen.


I'm not sure I have seen him try a spin move a single time yet. That would be a nice move for him to add to his arsenal.


now that i think about it, im not sure I've seen him do it either. I have seen him euro step tho, and that could be an effective move after receiving the pass in the PnR. also, i have a typo in the quoted above "for one* reason" i meant "for some* reason). in the last paragraph


The spin move has been Randle's go to move since highschool.



awesome, nice to see!
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2014 11:43 am    Post subject:

24 wrote:
I think Randle's shot is already better than Griffin's at the same point, which of course is damning with faint praise, but still. I think his handles and his footwork are better at the same point as well. Blake has that (pre injury) Amare, Antonio McDyess type elevation that I don't see in Randle. He can get up, he's just not an effortless high wire act like those guys. But that base, that first step, those handles, being a lefty, and understanding how to bump and clear space, those are all well ahead of what Blake had. Randle's ceiling is higher than current Blake IMO.


Agreed.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2014 8:31 am    Post subject:

fiendishoc wrote:
On offense, there were still some things I didn't like. Most notably, those instances where Wes and Ellington came off a floppy or pin down action to the wing and then got sent a screener to run P&R, or just threw it into the post and stood there. Wes especially, should not be trying to create as a ball handler.

Instead they should have Wes or Ellington come out on a zipper cut (popping out from the block to the top) to receive the ball and hold there. That would free up Lin to come down into the floppy action, and when he comes out to the wing to get the ball back from Wes, he's in position to be the pick and roll ball handler, something he's our most dangerous option as. Wes can then drift back to the wing to spot up for 3, a place where he's historically shot a good percentage.

This is the action made famous by Pop's Spurs and copied around the league. Check out the first half of this clip (some sweet weakside screening too):



I know Byron likes having both guards on the floor have a chance to initiate, but it only really makes sense to do that if Kobe or maybe Clarkson is the two instead of Wes / Wayne. Otherwise you are just choosing the lesser ballhandler over your point guard- instead of a passing/shooting/driving threat, you have more of only a shooting threat.

The Lakers occasionally have the PG go down into the block as one of the screeners and has a big guy pop out to be the guy to deliver the pass to the player popping out. But that makes the PG the secondary option to pop out after his screen instead of the primary, and he doesn't get the chance to utilize the double screen off the run, or it means you have both of the wings setting screens rather than being immediate shooting threats.





Based on where Ellington takes the handoff, the primary option becomes a long 2 rather than the 3s and layups in the Spurs video.


I just noticed that the previous BBallbreakdown video on the Lakers shows three Floppys ran by the Lakers against the Warriors, with the ball going to Ellington all three times for a P&R or a rushed shot.



The video also shows the PG getting in the way in terms of the spacing and delaying the whole action. If they had run the Spurs style Loop, then it would be the PG, preferably Lin, that gets to run the side pick and roll, and it would happen so much faster with the two wings already in position to spot up, and no one in the way of the screen roll.

Again, compare it to beginning sequence here:
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 26, 2014 2:59 am    Post subject:

Rivershow wrote:
24 wrote:
I think Randle's shot is already better than Griffin's at the same point, which of course is damning with faint praise, but still. I think his handles and his footwork are better at the same point as well. Blake has that (pre injury) Amare, Antonio McDyess type elevation that I don't see in Randle. He can get up, he's just not an effortless high wire act like those guys. But that base, that first step, those handles, being a lefty, and understanding how to bump and clear space, those are all well ahead of what Blake had. Randle's ceiling is higher than current Blake IMO.
Agreed.
One advantage of having one's game depended on being a constant high-flying act (ala Blake) is limiting injuries.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 27, 2014 1:23 am    Post subject:

Anyone know how to pull up the Lakers shot charts for the preseason games?

The ones that look like this: http://nbatitlechase.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/lakers-shot-chart-is-again-blood.jpeg

I saw a lot of bloggers post them for the Warriors and Utah games, and I'm curious to see how they turned out in the later games. Mike @ lg I think you posted one of them in one of your articles.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 12:26 am    Post subject:

A well designed NBA offense attempts to do the following things:
1) Make use of the strengths of the individual players
2) Promote spacing and ball movement
3) Result in efficient shots

Byron's offense does none of these things. His pindowns result in either a long two, often contested, or a non-ballhandler trying to run pick and rolls. He runs isolations for inefficent post up players and stacks players on the other side of the floor in positions where they are not threats. He has the bigs clog the lane and get in the way of any penetrations or pick and rolls.

For people blaming it on being the Princeton offense, they're not running it. The Princeton, like the triangle is a read and react offense with numerous counters. Here, they are running the initial motion once in a while with no other options when the first option is taken away. And it's predictable enough that the other team knows exactly how to take that first option away, and they're left with an isolation.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 8:57 am    Post subject:

fiendishoc wrote:
A well designed NBA offense attempts to do the following things:
1) Make use of the strengths of the individual players
2) Promote spacing and ball movement
3) Result in efficient shots

Byron's offense does none of these things. His pindowns result in either a long two, often contested, or a non-ballhandler trying to run pick and rolls. He runs isolations for inefficent post up players and stacks players on the other side of the floor in positions where they are not threats. He has the bigs clog the lane and get in the way of any penetrations or pick and rolls.

For people blaming it on being the Princeton offense, they're not running it. The Princeton, like the triangle is a read and react offense with numerous counters. Here, they are running the initial motion once in a while with no other options when the first option is taken away. And it's predictable enough that the other team knows exactly how to take that first option away, and they're left with an isolation.


I noticed a lot of visible frustration from both Jeremy and Kobe in terms of the bigs executing the sets that were called (particularly Jordan Hill). I wonder if Jordan is in the starting lineup as a front office thing to showcase him for a mid season trade or something because he hasn't been doing anything to show he deserves his spot over Ed Davis.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 1:03 pm    Post subject:

I'm seriously considering taking this season off. This is depressing. I don't understand how you guys can see the problems in the offense better than someone getting paid millions. B Scott is a good leader but he doesn't appear to have the X & Os down *sigh*

Brown - defense
Dantoni - offense
Scott - leadership

If we could put the 3 together we'd have a good coach
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 1:45 pm    Post subject:

22 wrote:
I'm seriously considering taking this season off. This is depressing. I don't understand how you guys can see the problems in the offense better than someone getting paid millions. B Scott is a good leader but he doesn't appear to have the X & Os down *sigh*

Brown - defense
Dantoni - offense
Scott - leadership

If we could put the 3 together we'd have a good coach


There were guys available that didn't even get looked at...Blatt, Ollie...instead we interviewed Dunleavy Sr, George Karl, and Byron Scott. Our front office seems to operate in an echo chamber when it comes to head coaches. I really think if we had offered him the job before Cleveland started sniffing around we could have locked up our coach for the next 10 years. I am so jealous of the Celtics having gotten Brad Stevens.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 3:43 pm    Post subject:

44TheLogo wrote:
22 wrote:
I'm seriously considering taking this season off. This is depressing. I don't understand how you guys can see the problems in the offense better than someone getting paid millions. B Scott is a good leader but he doesn't appear to have the X & Os down *sigh*

Brown - defense
Dantoni - offense
Scott - leadership

If we could put the 3 together we'd have a good coach


There were guys available that didn't even get looked at...Blatt, Ollie...instead we interviewed Dunleavy Sr, George Karl, and Byron Scott. Our front office seems to operate in an echo chamber when it comes to head coaches. I really think if we had offered him the job before Cleveland started sniffing around we could have locked up our coach for the next 10 years. I am so jealous of the Celtics having gotten Brad Stevens.


Seriously. And what kills me is the Lakers were aware of Blatt too. I asked Luca about it. he just said they wanted to go in another direction.

Once Blatt and Ollie were off the table I thought hollins was the best choice, but then we took too long again. If it were evident that the team had good schemes the talent just wasn't there I'd be fine. But when I read what you, GT, and fiendishoc are saying then it's almost hopeless the "system" he has in place is broken regardless of the players
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 5:52 am    Post subject:

TWC finally covers what has been blindingly obvious since early preseason:
http://www.twcsportsnet.com/videos/2014/10/30/lakers-three-point-woes-october-30-2014

And "Ryan and Nick injuries" is the lamest excuse ever...
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 5:47 pm    Post subject:

Bballbreakdown talks about Wes Johnson' poor defense on Klay (as well as some Kobe mistakes):


Of course, nothing has changed with Wes from the first post of this thread. Or from the preseason game where he let Gerald Green basically take over the game that they lost in OT. They need to find some way to minimize his minutes, even before Swaggy gets back.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2014 2:21 pm    Post subject:

fiendishoc wrote:
Bballbreakdown talks about Wes Johnson' poor defense on Klay (as well as some Kobe mistakes):


Of course, nothing has changed with Wes from the first post of this thread. Or from the preseason game where he let Gerald Green basically take over the game that they lost in OT. They need to find some way to minimize his minutes, even before Swaggy gets back.


Agreed. I'd been saying that we should be Kobe more at the 3; Ellington at the 2. We need to reduce Wes' time on the floor; he's a liability. The other option would be to pick another body off of waivers with the DPE once the league approves it.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2014 5:11 am    Post subject:

Good win tonight- finally gave me the energy to put out this post which has been brewing through the last couple of games. There were good things tonight as well as bad things, and the team has shown some improvement in their schemes. However, the reality is they won mostly because the team got hot at the right time and their opponents can't shoot- and the game almost got away from them early. There are still some things on the court that frustrate me, because the solutions are so obvious.

I know common refrain of those defending Byron is that this team has no talent. But coaching is about maximizing what you have. Regardless about what you think about analytics, anyone should be able to see the following logic:

Lets say you have one set of plays that on average get you 1.1 points per possession (ppp). Another set that gets you 0.8 ppp. If you run them at a 30/70 split between the former and latter at a 100 possession pace, then you score 96 points per game. If you flip around the proportions, you score 104 ppg. Most of us already know that this is the logic that makes long 2s the worst shot in the game (2pts at 35% shooting w/ little chance at fts = 0.70 ppp)

If your team is more talented, then maybe both numbers go up but it would take a ton of talent to perform an eight point swing in efficiency. The same goes for defensive efficiency as well as playing your more efficient players more minutes. The Lakers put their "70 percent" in the wrong place from the start of the season. This means they could do so much better with some fixes (which have been painfully obvious to anyone who has been following this thread) and some of which, they've slowly begun to implement:

SUGGESTED FIXES:

Start Ed Davis or play him a lot more minutes, preferably next to Lin where they were such an efficient combo during preseason but barely see the court together in the regular season.

Minimize the possibility of Wes Johnson doing anything on offense outside of catch and shoot, and limit his time on the floor.

What you don't do is run the same stuff you've been running the last 15 years regardless of personnel. (And over a decade ago the offense still didn't work:
)

Remove or reduce the following:

- Pindowns that lead to screen rolls for non-ball handlers like Wes and Ellington

- Pindowns which are designed to get long 2s

- Pindowns for Kobe that have no plan B if they deny
- Poorly executed 1st option out of the triangle
- Isolation postups for Boozer, Hill, Sacre unless there's an obvious mismatch

- Motion that takes too much time off the shot clock, clogs driving and cutting paths, and/or is designed to result in a 2 point jumper

Run more of the following sets:

- Pinch post
- Spread pick and roll

- Horns
- Motion and/or zipper cuts that get the playmakers the ball on the wing rather than the spot up shooters (
)
- High post split

On the last point, they've been running the high post split a lot more, and it's paying off, as it seems like they're able to get a good shot every time. This is something I've been recommending since the first post, and it is popular around the NBA because Rick Adelman successfully designed an entire offense after it:

Twolves corner offense:

Rockets corner offense (under Adelman):

Warriors corner series:


Here are the Lakers doing the split action:





You see Kobe getting open off of it because teams are reluctant to switch on the screen, which would mean putting a smaller defender on him. Instead, they eat the screen. (Here is the Lakers containing the Suns by switching, but the Suns get bailed out by the refs:
) Going all in on the corner offense should be right up Byron's alley because it's a combination of a read and react 3 man game and 2 man game, similar to the triangle and Princeton (was probably derived from the Princeton). At the same time, it's better suited for todays NBA because of the shots that result from it. Compared to the other teams above, the Lakers weak side action could use some work though.

And finally, they need to preach what is an efficient shot and what is not. Even the Princetonesque sets can be designed for 3s and a layups- its a question of emphasis, not the motion itself:



As for defense, recall something that Bill McDonald was talking about during the Hornets game, Hornets coach Steve Clifford's philosophy of "no gambling" and "don't foul". This simple philosophy, helped the Hornets improve last year from 30th! in the league on defense to 5th, without adding a single defensive stud. The Lakers, who give up open threes and shooting fouls all the time with their wild gambles and slow feet should pay attention. This also goes for gambling on offensive rebounds and steals in transition instead of getting back on defense as early as possible.

EDIT: I'd just like to add that I am indeed aware that the Lakers are sitting above average in offensive efficiency (while dead last in defense). This is where the eye test comes in. Kobe's knack for drawing freethrows and Hill / Davis' ability to grab offensive boards doesn't mean that the offense is anywhere near its potential. And better offense can definitely help with the disasterous transition defense.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2014 7:10 am    Post subject:

fiendishoc wrote:
Good win tonight- finally gave me the energy to put out this post which has been brewing through the last couple of games. There were good things tonight as well as bad things, and the team has shown some improvement in their schemes. However, the reality is they won mostly because the team got hot at the right time and their opponents can't shoot- and the game almost got away from them early. There are still some things on the court that frustrate me, because the solutions are so obvious.

I know common refrain of those defending Byron is that this team has no talent. But coaching is about maximizing what you have. Regardless about what you think about analytics, anyone should be able to see the following logic:

Lets say you have one set of plays that on average get you 1.1 points per possession (ppp). Another set that gets you 0.8 ppp. If you run them at a 30/70 split between the former and latter at a 100 possession pace, then you score 96 points per game. If you flip around the proportions, you score 104 ppg. Most of us already know that this is the logic that makes long 2s the worst shot in the game (2pts at 35% shooting w/ little chance at fts = 0.70 ppp)

If your team is more talented, then maybe both numbers go up but it would take a ton of talent to perform an eight point swing in efficiency. The same goes for defensive efficiency as well as playing your more efficient players more minutes. The Lakers put their "70 percent" in the wrong place from the start of the season. This means they could do so much better with some fixes (which have been painfully obvious to anyone who has been following this thread) and some of which, they've slowly begun to implement:

SUGGESTED FIXES:

Start Ed Davis or play him a lot more minutes, preferably next to Lin where they were such an efficient combo during preseason but barely see the court together in the regular season.

Minimize the possibility of Wes Johnson doing anything on offense outside of catch and shoot, and limit his time on the floor.

What you don't do is run the same stuff you've been running the last 15 years regardless of personnel. (And over a decade ago the offense still didn't work:
)

Remove or reduce the following:

- Pindowns that lead to screen rolls for non-ball handlers like Wes and Ellington

- Pindowns which are designed to get long 2s

- Pindowns for Kobe that have no plan B if they deny
- Poorly executed 1st option out of the triangle
- Isolation postups for Boozer, Hill, Sacre unless there's an obvious mismatch

- Motion that takes too much time off the shot clock, clogs driving and cutting paths, and/or is designed to result in a 2 point jumper

Run more of the following sets:

- Pinch post
- Spread pick and roll

- Horns
- Motion and/or zipper cuts that get the playmakers the ball on the wing rather than the spot up shooters (
)
- High post split

On the last point, they've been running the high post split a lot more, and it's paying off, as it seems like they're able to get a good shot every time. This is something I've been recommending since the first post, and it is popular around the NBA because Rick Adelman successfully designed an entire offense after it:

Twolves corner offense:

Rockets corner offense (under Adelman):

Warriors corner series:


Here are the Lakers doing the split action:





You see Kobe getting open off of it because teams are reluctant to switch on the screen, which would mean putting a smaller defender on him. Instead, they eat the screen. (Here is the Lakers containing the Suns by switching, but the Suns get bailed out by the refs:
) Going all in on the corner offense should be right up Byron's alley because it's a combination of a read and react 3 man game and 2 man game, similar to the triangle and Princeton (was probably derived from the Princeton). At the same time, it's better suited for todays NBA because of the shots that result from it. Compared to the other teams above, the Lakers weak side action could use some work though.

And finally, they need to preach what is an efficient shot and what is not. Even the Princetonesque sets can be designed for 3s and a layups- its a question of emphasis, not the motion itself:



As for defense, recall something that Bill McDonald was talking about during the Hornets game, Hornets coach Steve Clifford's philosophy of "no gambling" and "don't foul". This simple philosophy, helped the Hornets improve last year from 30th! in the league on defense to 5th, without adding a single defensive stud. The Lakers, who give up open threes and shooting fouls all the time with their wild gambles and slow feet should pay attention. This also goes for gambling on offensive rebounds and steals in transition instead of getting back on defense as early as possible.

EDIT: I'd just like to add that I am indeed aware that the Lakers are sitting above average in offensive efficiency (while dead last in defense). This is where the eye test comes in. Kobe's knack for drawing freethrows and Hill / Davis' ability to grab offensive boards doesn't mean that the offense is anywhere near its potential. And better offense can definitely help with the disasterous transition defense.


Nice observations. Learned a lot from your analysis.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2014 10:08 am    Post subject:

^^^ yeah fiendishoc is a beast.

Guys like him, DB, GT, LB, & LC make this forum unique. There are several other extremely valuable contirbutors too. Sorry if I left any out
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2014 10:35 am    Post subject:

Spacing was much better last night. Gave me hope.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2014 3:56 am    Post subject:

Thx guys. Here's a part from Zach Lowe's new article which talks about Portland succeeding on defense with a conservative approach. I think its something that the Lakers really should take a lesson from.

Quote:
Portland is sixth in points allowed per possession, and given their polished offensive attack, these Blazers will be a legitimate threat if they can maintain a top-10 defense.

The Blazers haven’t changed their scheme, in part because they ranked as an above-average defense after the All-Star break last season, Terry Stotts, the team’s head coach, tells Grantland. They’re still playing a conservative style — dropping back against pick-and-rolls, staying close to shooters on the wing, and diving inside to help only when there is a real threat.

That system produced the second-lowest turnover rate in franchise history last season, but Stotts studied past champions and decided to basically punt turnovers, he says. “It’s just not a priority,” he says. “Good defensive teams don’t necessarily force a lot of turnovers.” Portland is switching more on pick-and-rolls involving screeners with range — Dirk Nowitzki, Kevin Love, etc. — and banking on LaMarcus Aldridge to contain point guards off the dribble.

Much of the early improvement is due to continuity and comfort, Stotts says. He revamped the entire scheme before last season, meaning everyone spent last year learning it. This is Year 2, and it shows. Everyone is moving on the same string, shifting into and out of help position in concert. It looks downright fluid sometimes:

Portland is also paying more attention to transition defense. Stotts has told Nicolas Batum to be more cautious crashing the offensive glass, especially when Damian Lillard either drives or takes a corner 3. “He’d get one or two offensive rebounds a game, but it can’t come at the expense of getting back on defense,” Stotts says.

It hasn’t hurt, since Robin Lopez and Chris Kaman are snagging a ton of offensive rebounds — especially when their defenders rotate out toward an Aldridge jumper, leaving Kaman and Lopez inside position. Kaman has fit in beautifully on both ends.


http://grantland.com/the-triangle/taking-the-nbas-temperature-clearing-up-some-big-picture-questions/
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2014 10:41 pm    Post subject:

Make fiendishoc the Laker's coach. Do it Mitch!
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2014 11:36 pm    Post subject:

assistant coach, stay low key
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2014 11:26 pm    Post subject:

So the Lakers could have been easily leading at the half tonight against the Spurs, if not for some dumb defensive rotations and positioning, some of which looks like its by design. On offense, besides the usual stagnancy, they couldn't score because Kobe was cold, but that's going to happen if you're playing him so many minutes, and having him exert so much energy running around on defense.

On the surface, it looked like they were doing OK defensively, due to the effort they were putting out, and also because the Spurs have been out of sync so far this season. But giving up all those wide open threes is inexcusable.

First, the Lakers are trying to ICE every pick and roll, which is something I agree with, but then they completely miss the point behind ICE, which is to make the other team take an inefficient long two. I have to shake my head at the Lakers defenders rotating off of the 3 point shooters as if their life depended on it to stop Duncan or Parker from shooting a 20 foot two pointer. I bet for the most part they wouldn't have even shot those anyway because they know it's not the greatest shot - the Lakers rotations play right into their hands. (Couldn't find any clips yet, but I remember seeing it around four times in the first half). Couple that with the breakdowns where the guards don't cut off the middle or the bigs play too far out on the contain, this makes for some bad overall pick and roll defense.

Also, they have to rein in Kobe on defense. All that tough talk about having Kobe's respect means nothing if you're willing to let him make defensive mistake after defensive mistake. Someone needs to tell Kobe he can't play Danny Green the same way he plays Tony Allen or Kidd Gilchrist.



His hedge towards Parker meant that the Spurs trade a pull up Parker two for a wide open Danny Green 3.

This one is Kobe's fault for leaving Green as well, forcing a bad switch:


If he's tired, REST HIM. If not, then at least hold him accountable.

In general, the entire team doesn't recognize what is a good shot to give up and what isn't. They give way too much space to corner shooters on the weak side. They help one pass away off known sharpshooters. They jam up the paint at all costs while not recognizing that the other team is penetrating SPECIFICALLY to kick it out to said shooters.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 15, 2014 12:25 am    Post subject:

Thanks fiendishoc!
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"We have a lot of guys that have been kinda discarded ... Myself with the injury and the age. Jeremy ... a bunch of players who other teams really felt they had no use for. So we have that kind of attitude built into ourselves" -- Kobe Bryant
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fiendishoc
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Joined: 23 Jun 2005
Posts: 8488
Location: The (real) short corner

PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2014 2:50 am    Post subject:

Finally found a clip:


You can tell that Duncan wasn't even thinking shoot and Kobe sprints over to him, leaving Kawhi wide open from 3, or Green wide open in the corner.
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fiendishoc
Star Player
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Joined: 23 Jun 2005
Posts: 8488
Location: The (real) short corner

PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2014 10:26 pm    Post subject:

Broken defensive philosophy:


Broken offensive philospgy:
https://twitter.com/brosales12/status/534197622215823361
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GoldenThroat
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Joined: 25 Jul 2005
Posts: 37474

PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2014 11:34 pm    Post subject:

fiend...you're a better man than I. I just can't summon the energy to put the time into explaining the failings of this grease fire of a coach that you do. You're a saint.
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