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jodeke
Retired Number
Joined: 17 Nov 2007
Posts: 67709
Location: In a world where admitting to not knowing something is considered a great way to learn.
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 Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 1:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Who Takes The Blame wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | Anyone remember how many pages Odom generated? I was wondering because Jeremy's official page count is growing. |
Lin has a lot of fans, Odom had well some fans. |
So you don't remember. OK
_________________
Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves. |
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44TheLogo
Star Player
Joined: 21 Feb 2009
Posts: 6364
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| Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 2:03 pm Post subject: |
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| bws94 wrote: | | MJST wrote: | | Reflexx wrote: | | Who Takes The Blame wrote: | | When Lins not around the team you know hes telling his friends "I hate this team and i hate Kobe jacking up shots" |
He's probably saying, "The bigs aren't running my plays. Kobe thinks I'm being too nice about it. He wants me to take command and get on their backs when they don't do what I tell them to. Kobe is expecting an awful lot out of me. I need to step up and move out of my comfort zone personality-wise." |
yep. Lin's smart enough to know what's going on.
The bigs that did listen to him are on the bench. Well one is on the bench, the other is out for the season. When Kelly comes back and is on the bench it's gonna be even more of a lineup that Lin should be running with.
Lin
Clarkson/X
Ellington
Kelly
Davis
That's a lineup that Lin can work with and exceed effectiveness with. High pick and rolls and wide open threes for Clarkson, Ellington and Kelly, Davis rolling to the basket with authority. Perfect situation for Lin.
If he wants it in the starting lineup he's gonna have to get out of his comfort zone and let Hill have it when he doesn't roll and get Boozer on the pick and pop more and tell Wes to have his hands up and move off ball for threes. |
How much time do you want for the bench and what is the solution to the starting unit getting so far behind in games in the 1st and sometimes 3rd quarters? |
You are absolutely correct - in the 2 games so far the 1st unit has started games off so slowly and dug double digit deficits in the first quarter, which the bench erased. I think the bench has played teams close and the starters have lost the games. Our bench seems more able to contest 3 pt shooters on rotations and just has more mobility and movement.
I honestly just don't think Kobe, Boozer, and Hill should be played together - their combined lack of mobility on defense leads to too many open threes. The rest of our team is pretty mobile. |
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jodeke
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Joined: 17 Nov 2007
Posts: 67709
Location: In a world where admitting to not knowing something is considered a great way to learn.
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| Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 2:17 pm Post subject: |
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bws94 wrote:
| Quote: | | How much time do you want for the bench and what is the solution to the starting unit getting so far behind in games in the 1st and sometimes 3rd quarters? |
I'm going to place some blame on Scott. It seems he's sticking to protocol, playing vets, rather than finding a unit that plays best together.
It's only two games and I don't claim to know what Scotts plans are. Is he feeling for the best of what he has or is he relying on the vets over rooks theory?
It may be time to stir the pot.
_________________
Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves. |
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JerryMagicKobe
Moderator
Joined: 28 Jul 2005
Posts: 15100
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| Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 2:30 pm Post subject: |
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| greenfrog wrote: | | Reflexx wrote: | Lin really needs to be a bit of a jerk on the court. Be that jerk boss.
He probably has trouble with that because of his faith... but he needs to separate who he is as a person from the job he has to perform on the court. Being a bossy jerk the job he is tasked with. It doesn't mean he's not a good person.
Learn from Kobe. |
Hah! yes, get a couple hundred mistresses and maybe he'll grow a pair. |
That did not work for Dwight...
Jokes aside, let's try to limit the 'grow a pair' comments please. |
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Type Raba
Sixth Man
Joined: 30 Oct 2014
Posts: 26
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| Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 3:05 pm Post subject: |
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what more does davis have to do, to get a starting spot? the cries for lin to come off the bench are misguided imo because he hasnt played with davis starting. booz should be benched. wes and kobe can space the floor and hill is scrappy getting rebs and can hit the long 2.
and if byron is hellbent on davis coming off the bench, lin should be as well. as far as im concerned, they are a pair. in this case swaggy when he returns has to start to help out kobe. |
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jodeke
Retired Number
Joined: 17 Nov 2007
Posts: 67709
Location: In a world where admitting to not knowing something is considered a great way to learn.
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| Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 3:28 pm Post subject: |
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Just heard Mike Fratello say David Blatt, Cleveland's coach, adapts his system to his players, doesn't try to make players adapt to his system.
This is his first stint in the NBA. If it works maybe the Dantoni's and coaches who use a system rather than players best qualities will take notes.
Maybe Byron falls in the fit my system category? He's got 3 more games before his head may roll.  
_________________
Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves. |
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MJST
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Joined: 06 Jul 2014
Posts: 26386
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| Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 3:40 pm Post subject: |
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| bws94 wrote: | | MJST wrote: | | Reflexx wrote: | | Who Takes The Blame wrote: | | When Lins not around the team you know hes telling his friends "I hate this team and i hate Kobe jacking up shots" |
He's probably saying, "The bigs aren't running my plays. Kobe thinks I'm being too nice about it. He wants me to take command and get on their backs when they don't do what I tell them to. Kobe is expecting an awful lot out of me. I need to step up and move out of my comfort zone personality-wise." |
yep. Lin's smart enough to know what's going on.
The bigs that did listen to him are on the bench. Well one is on the bench, the other is out for the season. When Kelly comes back and is on the bench it's gonna be even more of a lineup that Lin should be running with.
Lin
Clarkson/X
Ellington
Kelly
Davis
That's a lineup that Lin can work with and exceed effectiveness with. High pick and rolls and wide open threes for Clarkson, Ellington and Kelly, Davis rolling to the basket with authority. Perfect situation for Lin.
If he wants it in the starting lineup he's gonna have to get out of his comfort zone and let Hill have it when he doesn't roll and get Boozer on the pick and pop more and tell Wes to have his hands up and move off ball for threes. |
How much time do you want for the bench and what is the solution to the starting unit getting so far behind in games in the 1st and sometimes 3rd quarters? |
Start the game with
Price
Kobe
Wesley
Boozer
Hill
Run the Triangle set with Ronnie off ball, and Kobe to Boozer combinations creating in the post and vice versa, Wes 3 and D and Hill for second chance and off ball scoring inside.
Bring Lin first off the bench in place of Price, and then follow it up with bringing in Davis.
Let them pick and roll a bit so that they can start to get going while Kobe doesn't have to worry about the offense floating towards him.
Start the 2nd with
Lin
Clarkson or X
Ellington
Kelly
Davis
Run high pick and roll with Lin and Davis, swing with Lin's penetration to the basket opening up wide open opportunities for Clarkson, Ellington or Kelly along the perimeter or finishing with a wide open dunk for Davis or an open layup for Lin. Put pressure on the defense through these pick and roll sets and high paced offense.
Kobe is the first guy in off the bench replacing Clarkson or X, Lin still dictating the offense in rhythm and Kobe can be found on the mid range off screens from Davis and Kobe can either shoot or pass to the cutting to the basket Davis as the team rotates.
Second off the bench Price and Jordan Hill, taking the place of Kelly and Lin, replace Ellington with Wes, but leave Davis in, playing the 4 for a few minutes and then bring Boozer back in, and go back to the triangle slow paced and hopefully the bench has pushed out a lead or momentum and the starters finish it up into halftime.
Start the third
Same kind of premise as the 1st quarter, potentially start filtering the bench a little sooner though.
Start the 4th quarter with Lin starting it and a lineup of
Lin
X or Clarkson
Ellington
Boozer
Davis
midway through the 4th bring in Kobe, Hill and Wes
Finish the game with a lineup of
Lin
Kobe
Wesley
Davis
Hill
That's how I'd do it anyway.
| Quote: |
Lakers starters: 56pts
Lakers bench: 43pts
Rockets starters out scored Lakers starters 77-56
Lakers bench out scored Rockets bench 43-42
|
who "wouldn't" want Lin leading that bench? He's an infinitely better playmaker than Price and can handle that responsibility better while Price's responsibility in the starting lineup (wait off ball for threes and play defense) is just enough to ask a player like him. It's wasted on Lin when there's a bench that could utilize everything he's good at.
Last edited by MJST on Thu Oct 30, 2014 3:58 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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LakeShow06
Star Player
Joined: 25 Sep 2005
Posts: 2176
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| Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 3:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Mini Mamba wrote: | | AllorNothing wrote: | Lin will be useless without either Davis in the lineup or a decent 3 point shooter to give him more spacing on the drive.  |
We need to put Davis and Ellington in the starting lineup. Gives us the best chance to win imo. |
This. I think Boozer will be given a few more games to start, but if he plays like v Suns rather than v Rockets, he should get demoted to the bench and play Hill with Davis upfront. Ellington or Henry must come into SF. I'm sorry, but Wes Johnson has had so many chances and he's just a black hole out there. He's not even a very good defender. he is so disappointing.
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"We might have had the worst season ever or could have the worst season ever for a Lakers team, but now let's have the greatest comeback that the league has ever seen." - Kobe Bryant |
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bws94
Star Player
Joined: 28 Oct 2014
Posts: 1563
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| Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 4:45 pm Post subject: |
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| MJST wrote: | | bws94 wrote: | | MJST wrote: | | Reflexx wrote: | | Who Takes The Blame wrote: | | When Lins not around the team you know hes telling his friends "I hate this team and i hate Kobe jacking up shots" |
He's probably saying, "The bigs aren't running my plays. Kobe thinks I'm being too nice about it. He wants me to take command and get on their backs when they don't do what I tell them to. Kobe is expecting an awful lot out of me. I need to step up and move out of my comfort zone personality-wise." |
yep. Lin's smart enough to know what's going on.
The bigs that did listen to him are on the bench. Well one is on the bench, the other is out for the season. When Kelly comes back and is on the bench it's gonna be even more of a lineup that Lin should be running with.
Lin
Clarkson/X
Ellington
Kelly
Davis
That's a lineup that Lin can work with and exceed effectiveness with. High pick and rolls and wide open threes for Clarkson, Ellington and Kelly, Davis rolling to the basket with authority. Perfect situation for Lin.
If he wants it in the starting lineup he's gonna have to get out of his comfort zone and let Hill have it when he doesn't roll and get Boozer on the pick and pop more and tell Wes to have his hands up and move off ball for threes. |
How much time do you want for the bench and what is the solution to the starting unit getting so far behind in games in the 1st and sometimes 3rd quarters? |
Start the game with
Price
Kobe
Wesley
Boozer
Hill
Run the Triangle set with Ronnie off ball, and Kobe to Boozer combinations creating in the post and vice versa, Wes 3 and D and Hill for second chance and off ball scoring inside.
Bring Lin first off the bench in place of Price, and then follow it up with bringing in Davis.
Let them pick and roll a bit so that they can start to get going while Kobe doesn't have to worry about the offense floating towards him.
Start the 2nd with
Lin
Clarkson or X
Ellington
Kelly
Davis
Run high pick and roll with Lin and Davis, swing with Lin's penetration to the basket opening up wide open opportunities for Clarkson, Ellington or Kelly along the perimeter or finishing with a wide open dunk for Davis or an open layup for Lin. Put pressure on the defense through these pick and roll sets and high paced offense.
Kobe is the first guy in off the bench replacing Clarkson or X, Lin still dictating the offense in rhythm and Kobe can be found on the mid range off screens from Davis and Kobe can either shoot or pass to the cutting to the basket Davis as the team rotates.
Second off the bench Price and Jordan Hill, taking the place of Kelly and Lin, replace Ellington with Wes, but leave Davis in, playing the 4 for a few minutes and then bring Boozer back in, and go back to the triangle slow paced and hopefully the bench has pushed out a lead or momentum and the starters finish it up into halftime.
Start the third
Same kind of premise as the 1st quarter, potentially start filtering the bench a little sooner though.
Start the 4th quarter with Lin starting it and a lineup of
Lin
X or Clarkson
Ellington
Boozer
Davis
midway through the 4th bring in Kobe, Hill and Wes
Finish the game with a lineup of
Lin
Kobe
Wesley
Davis
Hill
That's how I'd do it anyway.
| Quote: |
Lakers starters: 56pts
Lakers bench: 43pts
Rockets starters out scored Lakers starters 77-56
Lakers bench out scored Rockets bench 43-42
|
who "wouldn't" want Lin leading that bench? He's an infinitely better playmaker than Price and can handle that responsibility better while Price's responsibility in the starting lineup (wait off ball for threes and play defense) is just enough to ask a player like him. It's wasted on Lin when there's a bench that could utilize everything he's good at. |
I get your logic, but still don't know if that solves the problem of the first unit getting down 14 plus points before the bench guys roll in.
how many minutes for your bench players total by player? and Boozer, Hill and Wesley as starters? |
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MJST
Retired Number
Joined: 06 Jul 2014
Posts: 26386
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| Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 4:54 pm Post subject: |
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| bws94 wrote: | | MJST wrote: | | bws94 wrote: | | MJST wrote: | | Reflexx wrote: | | Who Takes The Blame wrote: | | When Lins not around the team you know hes telling his friends "I hate this team and i hate Kobe jacking up shots" |
He's probably saying, "The bigs aren't running my plays. Kobe thinks I'm being too nice about it. He wants me to take command and get on their backs when they don't do what I tell them to. Kobe is expecting an awful lot out of me. I need to step up and move out of my comfort zone personality-wise." |
yep. Lin's smart enough to know what's going on.
The bigs that did listen to him are on the bench. Well one is on the bench, the other is out for the season. When Kelly comes back and is on the bench it's gonna be even more of a lineup that Lin should be running with.
Lin
Clarkson/X
Ellington
Kelly
Davis
That's a lineup that Lin can work with and exceed effectiveness with. High pick and rolls and wide open threes for Clarkson, Ellington and Kelly, Davis rolling to the basket with authority. Perfect situation for Lin.
If he wants it in the starting lineup he's gonna have to get out of his comfort zone and let Hill have it when he doesn't roll and get Boozer on the pick and pop more and tell Wes to have his hands up and move off ball for threes. |
How much time do you want for the bench and what is the solution to the starting unit getting so far behind in games in the 1st and sometimes 3rd quarters? |
Start the game with
Price
Kobe
Wesley
Boozer
Hill
Run the Triangle set with Ronnie off ball, and Kobe to Boozer combinations creating in the post and vice versa, Wes 3 and D and Hill for second chance and off ball scoring inside.
Bring Lin first off the bench in place of Price, and then follow it up with bringing in Davis.
Let them pick and roll a bit so that they can start to get going while Kobe doesn't have to worry about the offense floating towards him.
Start the 2nd with
Lin
Clarkson or X
Ellington
Kelly
Davis
Run high pick and roll with Lin and Davis, swing with Lin's penetration to the basket opening up wide open opportunities for Clarkson, Ellington or Kelly along the perimeter or finishing with a wide open dunk for Davis or an open layup for Lin. Put pressure on the defense through these pick and roll sets and high paced offense.
Kobe is the first guy in off the bench replacing Clarkson or X, Lin still dictating the offense in rhythm and Kobe can be found on the mid range off screens from Davis and Kobe can either shoot or pass to the cutting to the basket Davis as the team rotates.
Second off the bench Price and Jordan Hill, taking the place of Kelly and Lin, replace Ellington with Wes, but leave Davis in, playing the 4 for a few minutes and then bring Boozer back in, and go back to the triangle slow paced and hopefully the bench has pushed out a lead or momentum and the starters finish it up into halftime.
Start the third
Same kind of premise as the 1st quarter, potentially start filtering the bench a little sooner though.
Start the 4th quarter with Lin starting it and a lineup of
Lin
X or Clarkson
Ellington
Boozer
Davis
midway through the 4th bring in Kobe, Hill and Wes
Finish the game with a lineup of
Lin
Kobe
Wesley
Davis
Hill
That's how I'd do it anyway.
| Quote: |
Lakers starters: 56pts
Lakers bench: 43pts
Rockets starters out scored Lakers starters 77-56
Lakers bench out scored Rockets bench 43-42
|
who "wouldn't" want Lin leading that bench? He's an infinitely better playmaker than Price and can handle that responsibility better while Price's responsibility in the starting lineup (wait off ball for threes and play defense) is just enough to ask a player like him. It's wasted on Lin when there's a bench that could utilize everything he's good at. |
I get your logic, but still don't know if that solves the problem of the first unit getting down 14 plus points before the bench guys roll in.
how many minutes for your bench players total by player? and Boozer, Hill and Wesley as starters? |
One of the "many" reasons the first unit gets down by 14 is because of Lin having no defensive chemistry with the starters and it shows on rotations.
Don't forget, Lin got injured and didn't even get to practice with the starters and spent nearly all his time in camp prior to that playing with the 2nd unit lineups where he looked best with. So as a consequence he gets lost on a lot of switches, and on penetration which usually leads to an open shot for the defense. Kobe's issues as well.
But Price has chemistry with the starters, knows how they want to defend, and knows how to play the passing lanes on rotation which is why he's able to get steals on shots would have been easy layups otherwise.
That plus the starters with Price play a slower pace which fits with Kobe and Boozer better and it allows the offense to swing to Kobe in the post where Boozer or Hill can be moving off ball for the open shot inside which worked very well in pre-season when they moved, or the ball would go back out to Price for the open three(the fisher role).
This kind of pacing allowed the Lakers to get back defensively and Price and Wes had a very good defensive chemistry together to fill up on the holes that would happen due to Kobe and Boozer. That plus Price's ability to get where he was needed and take charges. It was the little things that Ronnie does that really helped that don't appear on the stats sheet. That's why that 2nd unit was able to defensively bother the Suns last night and suddenly their easy opportunities were dissipating.
Lin's not a bad defender, but he has no idea the habits of the starting lineup offensively or defensively and it shows because he looks lost 90% of the time, be it running the offense or knowing who he's supposed to switch to. Those things cause wide open shots at the rim, lost rotations, confusions and open threes and those factor into all the other calamities that cause our team to dig such a hole.
Start of the season is a bad time to decide to try to build that kind of chemistry and defensive know how with the starting unit when you practiced with them a grand total of once in a 5 week training camp.
This is probably another reason why Scott wanted to bring Lin off the bench, because it would be more comfortable for him.
Small changes like that would help the flow and rhythm of the game on 'our' end a lot better. It's a small change that would potentially stop us from digging such a hole cause those little nuances would be filled.
At the very least it would cause our starters and bench to play in a rhythm of familiarity and that ultimately is what's missing from us right now. |
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Mini Mamba
Star Player
Joined: 06 May 2013
Posts: 6006
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| Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 5:01 pm Post subject: |
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Lin has always played best when he has had confidence.
With Kobe giving him the green light to run the offense I'm curious to see how he responds.
He like a lot of other players tends to defer to Kobe too much which takes him out of his game.
Lin needs to just go out there and play hard and not over think things. |
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dxdx
Sixth Man
Joined: 28 Oct 2014
Posts: 70
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| Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 9:05 pm Post subject: |
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| MJST wrote: |
Start the game with
Price
Kobe
Wesley
Boozer
Hill
Run the Triangle set with Ronnie off ball, and Kobe to Boozer combinations creating in the post and vice versa, Wes 3 and D and Hill for second chance and off ball scoring inside.
Bring Lin first off the bench in place of Price, and then follow it up with bringing in Davis.
Let them pick and roll a bit so that they can start to get going while Kobe doesn't have to worry about the offense floating towards him.
Start the 2nd with
Lin
Clarkson or X
Ellington
Kelly
Davis
Run high pick and roll with Lin and Davis, swing with Lin's penetration to the basket opening up wide open opportunities for Clarkson, Ellington or Kelly along the perimeter or finishing with a wide open dunk for Davis or an open layup for Lin. Put pressure on the defense through these pick and roll sets and high paced offense.
Kobe is the first guy in off the bench replacing Clarkson or X, Lin still dictating the offense in rhythm and Kobe can be found on the mid range off screens from Davis and Kobe can either shoot or pass to the cutting to the basket Davis as the team rotates.
Second off the bench Price and Jordan Hill, taking the place of Kelly and Lin, replace Ellington with Wes, but leave Davis in, playing the 4 for a few minutes and then bring Boozer back in, and go back to the triangle slow paced and hopefully the bench has pushed out a lead or momentum and the starters finish it up into halftime.
Start the third
Same kind of premise as the 1st quarter, potentially start filtering the bench a little sooner though.
Start the 4th quarter with Lin starting it and a lineup of
Lin
X or Clarkson
Ellington
Boozer
Davis
midway through the 4th bring in Kobe, Hill and Wes
Finish the game with a lineup of
Lin
Kobe
Wesley
Davis
Hill
|
tbh, i don't really see much of a difference with that starting line-up and what it is now.
you're still going to have the spacing problems, the paint collapsing on drivers, no perimeter shooters available, many defensive liabilities, and of course, 2 bigs who don't know what they should be doing properly. what's worse is that now you have a PG who can't run sh!t for nuts. ultimately, it'll just lead to another iso kobe offense.
so we'll be starting 2Q with a heavy deficit that the bench must now work extra hard to keep the team relevant again. |
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jodeke
Retired Number
Joined: 17 Nov 2007
Posts: 67709
Location: In a world where admitting to not knowing something is considered a great way to learn.
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| Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 9:16 pm Post subject: |
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I hope Kobe slows his roll and waits on the calvary. He can't win it by himself. I remember him playing like this last season and getting hurt. We're not going anywhere this season.
It's a great opportunity for him to teach Lin.
_________________
Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.
Last edited by jodeke on Fri Oct 31, 2014 1:32 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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nashftw
Starting Rotation
Joined: 19 Jul 2014
Posts: 177
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| Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 9:22 pm Post subject: |
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it seems that for Lin, the biggest factor is mental/psychological.
that's the only thing that makes the difference between him playing like the Linsanity days and playing like a D-leaguer.
we all know the talent is there but it just doesn't make an appearance as often as necessary, blocked by a combination of lack of confidence, deferential play to superstars, pressuring himself, too much unselfishness, sticking to called plays even when things have broken down -- all these are mental. it's all on him to take the cards he has been given -- the entire situation and environment he is in, and break through from there.
for someone Harvard smart, it should take him quickly to figure out that Kobe's statements were a vote of confidence and he should run with it and change his mindset displayed in the first two games |
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Honeybadger81
Star Player
Joined: 25 Oct 2014
Posts: 1253
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| Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 9:57 pm Post subject: |
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| MJST wrote: | | bws94 wrote: | | MJST wrote: | | bws94 wrote: | | MJST wrote: | | Reflexx wrote: | | Who Takes The Blame wrote: | | When Lins not around the team you know hes telling his friends "I hate this team and i hate Kobe jacking up shots" |
He's probably saying, "The bigs aren't running my plays. Kobe thinks I'm being too nice about it. He wants me to take command and get on their backs when they don't do what I tell them to. Kobe is expecting an awful lot out of me. I need to step up and move out of my comfort zone personality-wise." |
yep. Lin's smart enough to know what's going on.
The bigs that did listen to him are on the bench. Well one is on the bench, the other is out for the season. When Kelly comes back and is on the bench it's gonna be even more of a lineup that Lin should be running with.
Lin
Clarkson/X
Ellington
Kelly
Davis
That's a lineup that Lin can work with and exceed effectiveness with. High pick and rolls and wide open threes for Clarkson, Ellington and Kelly, Davis rolling to the basket with authority. Perfect situation for Lin.
If he wants it in the starting lineup he's gonna have to get out of his comfort zone and let Hill have it when he doesn't roll and get Boozer on the pick and pop more and tell Wes to have his hands up and move off ball for threes. |
How much time do you want for the bench and what is the solution to the starting unit getting so far behind in games in the 1st and sometimes 3rd quarters? |
Start the game with
Price
Kobe
Wesley
Boozer
Hill
Run the Triangle set with Ronnie off ball, and Kobe to Boozer combinations creating in the post and vice versa, Wes 3 and D and Hill for second chance and off ball scoring inside.
Bring Lin first off the bench in place of Price, and then follow it up with bringing in Davis.
Let them pick and roll a bit so that they can start to get going while Kobe doesn't have to worry about the offense floating towards him.
Start the 2nd with
Lin
Clarkson or X
Ellington
Kelly
Davis
Run high pick and roll with Lin and Davis, swing with Lin's penetration to the basket opening up wide open opportunities for Clarkson, Ellington or Kelly along the perimeter or finishing with a wide open dunk for Davis or an open layup for Lin. Put pressure on the defense through these pick and roll sets and high paced offense.
Kobe is the first guy in off the bench replacing Clarkson or X, Lin still dictating the offense in rhythm and Kobe can be found on the mid range off screens from Davis and Kobe can either shoot or pass to the cutting to the basket Davis as the team rotates.
Second off the bench Price and Jordan Hill, taking the place of Kelly and Lin, replace Ellington with Wes, but leave Davis in, playing the 4 for a few minutes and then bring Boozer back in, and go back to the triangle slow paced and hopefully the bench has pushed out a lead or momentum and the starters finish it up into halftime.
Start the third
Same kind of premise as the 1st quarter, potentially start filtering the bench a little sooner though.
Start the 4th quarter with Lin starting it and a lineup of
Lin
X or Clarkson
Ellington
Boozer
Davis
midway through the 4th bring in Kobe, Hill and Wes
Finish the game with a lineup of
Lin
Kobe
Wesley
Davis
Hill
That's how I'd do it anyway.
| Quote: |
Lakers starters: 56pts
Lakers bench: 43pts
Rockets starters out scored Lakers starters 77-56
Lakers bench out scored Rockets bench 43-42
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who "wouldn't" want Lin leading that bench? He's an infinitely better playmaker than Price and can handle that responsibility better while Price's responsibility in the starting lineup (wait off ball for threes and play defense) is just enough to ask a player like him. It's wasted on Lin when there's a bench that could utilize everything he's good at. |
I get your logic, but still don't know if that solves the problem of the first unit getting down 14 plus points before the bench guys roll in.
how many minutes for your bench players total by player? and Boozer, Hill and Wesley as starters? |
One of the "many" reasons the first unit gets down by 14 is because of Lin having no defensive chemistry with the starters and it shows on rotations.
Don't forget, Lin got injured and didn't even get to practice with the starters and spent nearly all his time in camp prior to that playing with the 2nd unit lineups where he looked best with. So as a consequence he gets lost on a lot of switches, and on penetration which usually leads to an open shot for the defense. Kobe's issues as well.
But Price has chemistry with the starters, knows how they want to defend, and knows how to play the passing lanes on rotation which is why he's able to get steals on shots would have been easy layups otherwise.
That plus the starters with Price play a slower pace which fits with Kobe and Boozer better and it allows the offense to swing to Kobe in the post where Boozer or Hill can be moving off ball for the open shot inside which worked very well in pre-season when they moved, or the ball would go back out to Price for the open three(the fisher role).
This kind of pacing allowed the Lakers to get back defensively and Price and Wes had a very good defensive chemistry together to fill up on the holes that would happen due to Kobe and Boozer. That plus Price's ability to get where he was needed and take charges. It was the little things that Ronnie does that really helped that don't appear on the stats sheet. That's why that 2nd unit was able to defensively bother the Suns last night and suddenly their easy opportunities were dissipating.
Lin's not a bad defender, but he has no idea the habits of the starting lineup offensively or defensively and it shows because he looks lost 90% of the time, be it running the offense or knowing who he's supposed to switch to. Those things cause wide open shots at the rim, lost rotations, confusions and open threes and those factor into all the other calamities that cause our team to dig such a hole.
Start of the season is a bad time to decide to try to build that kind of chemistry and defensive know how with the starting unit when you practiced with them a grand total of once in a 5 week training camp.
This is probably another reason why Scott wanted to bring Lin off the bench, because it would be more comfortable for him.
Small changes like that would help the flow and rhythm of the game on 'our' end a lot better. It's a small change that would potentially stop us from digging such a hole cause those little nuances would be filled.
At the very least it would cause our starters and bench to play in a rhythm of familiarity and that ultimately is what's missing from us right now. |
I don't agree with your observation. The biggest issue right now is the starters' defense, particularly the transition defense and defending the three... believe it or not, Lin and Wes played solid defense, it problem is the other three in the starting lineup, Kobe gambled too much, he blown a lot positions, did you see how many threes Marcus Morris made? All wide open, Kobe was nowhere near him. Boozer is a waste in defensive end, Hill can't protect rim... If Kobe, Boozer and Hill still play this type of defense, no matter who starts with them, they are going to be blown out in the first quarter... Ronnie did a better job in initiating the defense, but he himself could not solve the defense of the starting lineup...
I do agree with you at this stage it's better Lin comes off bench and run the up tempo second unit, he at least can get in a rhythm, but you can not depend on your second unit to bail you out in every game...
I would start Ronnie, Kobe, Wes, Davis, Hill...absolutely NO BOOZER... and the most important, guys have to play smart D, coach needs to figure out a better scheme.. |
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MambaBamba
Sixth Man
Joined: 27 Oct 2014
Posts: 45
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| Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 8:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Honeybadger81 wrote: | | MJST wrote: | | bws94 wrote: | | MJST wrote: | | bws94 wrote: | | MJST wrote: | | Reflexx wrote: | | Who Takes The Blame wrote: | | When Lins not around the team you know hes telling his friends "I hate this team and i hate Kobe jacking up shots" |
He's probably saying, "The bigs aren't running my plays. Kobe thinks I'm being too nice about it. He wants me to take command and get on their backs when they don't do what I tell them to. Kobe is expecting an awful lot out of me. I need to step up and move out of my comfort zone personality-wise." |
yep. Lin's smart enough to know what's going on.
The bigs that did listen to him are on the bench. Well one is on the bench, the other is out for the season. When Kelly comes back and is on the bench it's gonna be even more of a lineup that Lin should be running with.
Lin
Clarkson/X
Ellington
Kelly
Davis
That's a lineup that Lin can work with and exceed effectiveness with. High pick and rolls and wide open threes for Clarkson, Ellington and Kelly, Davis rolling to the basket with authority. Perfect situation for Lin.
If he wants it in the starting lineup he's gonna have to get out of his comfort zone and let Hill have it when he doesn't roll and get Boozer on the pick and pop more and tell Wes to have his hands up and move off ball for threes. |
How much time do you want for the bench and what is the solution to the starting unit getting so far behind in games in the 1st and sometimes 3rd quarters? |
Start the game with
Price
Kobe
Wesley
Boozer
Hill
Run the Triangle set with Ronnie off ball, and Kobe to Boozer combinations creating in the post and vice versa, Wes 3 and D and Hill for second chance and off ball scoring inside.
Bring Lin first off the bench in place of Price, and then follow it up with bringing in Davis.
Let them pick and roll a bit so that they can start to get going while Kobe doesn't have to worry about the offense floating towards him.
Start the 2nd with
Lin
Clarkson or X
Ellington
Kelly
Davis
Run high pick and roll with Lin and Davis, swing with Lin's penetration to the basket opening up wide open opportunities for Clarkson, Ellington or Kelly along the perimeter or finishing with a wide open dunk for Davis or an open layup for Lin. Put pressure on the defense through these pick and roll sets and high paced offense.
Kobe is the first guy in off the bench replacing Clarkson or X, Lin still dictating the offense in rhythm and Kobe can be found on the mid range off screens from Davis and Kobe can either shoot or pass to the cutting to the basket Davis as the team rotates.
Second off the bench Price and Jordan Hill, taking the place of Kelly and Lin, replace Ellington with Wes, but leave Davis in, playing the 4 for a few minutes and then bring Boozer back in, and go back to the triangle slow paced and hopefully the bench has pushed out a lead or momentum and the starters finish it up into halftime.
Start the third
Same kind of premise as the 1st quarter, potentially start filtering the bench a little sooner though.
Start the 4th quarter with Lin starting it and a lineup of
Lin
X or Clarkson
Ellington
Boozer
Davis
midway through the 4th bring in Kobe, Hill and Wes
Finish the game with a lineup of
Lin
Kobe
Wesley
Davis
Hill
That's how I'd do it anyway.
| Quote: |
Lakers starters: 56pts
Lakers bench: 43pts
Rockets starters out scored Lakers starters 77-56
Lakers bench out scored Rockets bench 43-42
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who "wouldn't" want Lin leading that bench? He's an infinitely better playmaker than Price and can handle that responsibility better while Price's responsibility in the starting lineup (wait off ball for threes and play defense) is just enough to ask a player like him. It's wasted on Lin when there's a bench that could utilize everything he's good at. |
I get your logic, but still don't know if that solves the problem of the first unit getting down 14 plus points before the bench guys roll in.
how many minutes for your bench players total by player? and Boozer, Hill and Wesley as starters? |
One of the "many" reasons the first unit gets down by 14 is because of Lin having no defensive chemistry with the starters and it shows on rotations.
Don't forget, Lin got injured and didn't even get to practice with the starters and spent nearly all his time in camp prior to that playing with the 2nd unit lineups where he looked best with. So as a consequence he gets lost on a lot of switches, and on penetration which usually leads to an open shot for the defense. Kobe's issues as well.
But Price has chemistry with the starters, knows how they want to defend, and knows how to play the passing lanes on rotation which is why he's able to get steals on shots would have been easy layups otherwise.
That plus the starters with Price play a slower pace which fits with Kobe and Boozer better and it allows the offense to swing to Kobe in the post where Boozer or Hill can be moving off ball for the open shot inside which worked very well in pre-season when they moved, or the ball would go back out to Price for the open three(the fisher role).
This kind of pacing allowed the Lakers to get back defensively and Price and Wes had a very good defensive chemistry together to fill up on the holes that would happen due to Kobe and Boozer. That plus Price's ability to get where he was needed and take charges. It was the little things that Ronnie does that really helped that don't appear on the stats sheet. That's why that 2nd unit was able to defensively bother the Suns last night and suddenly their easy opportunities were dissipating.
Lin's not a bad defender, but he has no idea the habits of the starting lineup offensively or defensively and it shows because he looks lost 90% of the time, be it running the offense or knowing who he's supposed to switch to. Those things cause wide open shots at the rim, lost rotations, confusions and open threes and those factor into all the other calamities that cause our team to dig such a hole.
Start of the season is a bad time to decide to try to build that kind of chemistry and defensive know how with the starting unit when you practiced with them a grand total of once in a 5 week training camp.
This is probably another reason why Scott wanted to bring Lin off the bench, because it would be more comfortable for him.
Small changes like that would help the flow and rhythm of the game on 'our' end a lot better. It's a small change that would potentially stop us from digging such a hole cause those little nuances would be filled.
At the very least it would cause our starters and bench to play in a rhythm of familiarity and that ultimately is what's missing from us right now. |
I don't agree with your observation. The biggest issue right now is the starters' defense, particularly the transition defense and defending the three... believe it or not, Lin and Wes played solid defense, it problem is the other three in the starting lineup, Kobe gambled too much, he blown a lot positions, did you see how many threes Marcus Morris made? All wide open, Kobe was nowhere near him. Boozer is a waste in defensive end, Hill can't protect rim... If Kobe, Boozer and Hill still play this type of defense, no matter who starts with them, they are going to be blown out in the first quarter... Ronnie did a better job in initiating the defense, but he himself could not solve the defense of the starting lineup...
I do agree with you at this stage it's better Lin comes off bench and run the up tempo second unit, he at least can get in a rhythm, but you can not depend on your second unit to bail you out in every game...
I would start Ronnie, Kobe, Wes, Davis, Hill...absolutely NO BOOZER... and the most important, guys have to play smart D, coach needs to figure out a better scheme.. |
Lin's doing fine. The biggest difference this game is that there are a lot more shots to go around. Kobe's getting everyone involved. It looks like Scott means to use Jeremy as the second option behind Kobe - 8 shots already, making 4. Lin's man on man D on Paul looks solid so far. It's more the team defensive rotation that's the problem, there is no pick and roll cover, 3s wide open, Blake Griffin murdering inside. |
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fadeaway3
Starting Rotation
Joined: 15 Jul 2014
Posts: 345
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| Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 10:10 pm Post subject: |
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| The biggest problem with Lin on D, is the fact that he over helps. So when the ball gets swung around he's usually the guy running to challenge but looking foolish in the process. He needs to trust his teammates and stay with his man, and learn that his not a shot blocker!! |
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0514
Star Player
Joined: 16 Nov 2012
Posts: 6309
Location: Fountain Valley
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| Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 10:14 pm Post subject: |
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| much better game by Lin. Hope he gets more comfortable |
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KeepItRealOrElse
Retired Number
Joined: 11 Oct 2012
Posts: 32767
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| Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 10:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Lin really has a lot of skill. Like a mod suggested, I'm hoping we sign resign him during the season to a good deal. 7-8mil in this market would be a steal. |
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dxdx
Sixth Man
Joined: 28 Oct 2014
Posts: 70
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| Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 10:46 pm Post subject: |
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Great game by Lin, could have pushed it a little more in the 4Q though.
17 pts/ 9 assists, on 54% FG and 50% 3points.
4TO but several were more fouls uncalled and undeserved.
i'll take this performance any day. |
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cmonkee
Star Player
Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Posts: 5301
Location: Redondo Beach
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| Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 11:01 pm Post subject: |
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Much better game from Lin tonight. Was much more aggressive/assertive. Didn't hesitate on his 3's, drove to the bucket (and should've gotten more FT's).
Big moment was waving off the Kobe iso - we need a PG willing to do that. I do wish he did it a bit more down the stretch when Kobe missed a few shots he usually hits - I didn't like the angle on the entry-passes to Kobe (who should've been much deeper in with the shorter CP3 on him). Would like to see Lin direct guys on the other side to keep moving to keep defenses guessing (and not completely dialed into Kobe) |
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DJ Slik
Starting Rotation
Joined: 11 Jul 2014
Posts: 432
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| Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 11:07 pm Post subject: |
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| fadeaway3 wrote: | | The biggest problem with Lin on D, is the fact that he over helps. So when the ball gets swung around he's usually the guy running to challenge but looking foolish in the process. He needs to trust his teammates and stay with his man, and learn that his not a shot blocker!! |
well he LOCKED DOWN CP3 pretty much every time he guarded him. his defense was outstanding. much better job orchestrating the offense. i think kobe's green light lit a fuse. great job. they should've called his number in the 4th. what BS needs to realize is that they can't ALWAYS have kobe shoot inside of 2 minutes. jeremy is an extremely clutch player in the 4th. he's got to take it upon himself to take those shots. much better aggression this game with 13 shots. he should be allowed to start the next game because he shot > 10x. that's my barometer of jeremy lin this year. any game where he plays >20 min and doesn't have at least 10 FGA he should be benched. when he's aggressive, the lakers have a CHANCE. |
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EddieJonesss
Starting Rotation
Joined: 12 Jul 2014
Posts: 606
Location: 32 miles from the Staples Center
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| Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 11:09 pm Post subject: |
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| cmonkee wrote: | Much better game from Lin tonight. Was much more aggressive/assertive. Didn't hesitate on his 3's, drove to the bucket (and should've gotten more FT's).
Big moment was waving off the Kobe iso - we need a PG willing to do that. I do wish he did it a bit more down the stretch when Kobe missed a few shots he usually hits - I didn't like the angle on the entry-passes to Kobe (who should've been much deeper in with the shorter CP3 on him). Would like to see Lin direct guys on the other side to keep moving to keep defenses guessing (and not completely dialed into Kobe) |
Kobe tested him and he passed the test with flying colors. |
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MJST
Retired Number
Joined: 06 Jul 2014
Posts: 26386
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| Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 11:13 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, the big moment as well from what I read when I was keeping up with the game was him waving off the screen so he could isolate against CP3. that's important.
McHale nearly destroyed this guys confidence, I'm glad Kobe gave him the green light but not just that he got the green light but that he responded and took it.
Could be a major turning point for him. |
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cheesysapien
Starting Rotation
Joined: 15 Oct 2014
Posts: 357
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| Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 11:29 pm Post subject: |
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| MJST wrote: | Yes, the big moment as well from what I read when I was keeping up with the game was him waving off the screen so he could isolate against CP3. that's important.
McHale nearly destroyed this guys confidence, I'm glad Kobe gave him the green light but not just that he got the green light but that he responded and took it.
Could be a major turning point for him. |
Need to rewatch some of the plays. Yes, McHale did not trust him and let him play through mistakes. I am glad that he has Byron and Kobe. I kinda sensed that he would response to Kobe's challenge well. Could also be a major turning point for the team
_________________
"We have a lot of guys that have been kinda discarded ... Myself with the injury and the age. Jeremy ... a bunch of players who other teams really felt they had no use for. So we have that kind of attitude built into ourselves" -- Kobe Bryant |
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