Has there ever been a Laker point guard that has played well with Kobe?
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MJST
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 3:30 pm    Post subject:

Chris Paul the year him and Kobe put on a show at the all-star game the year of the veto to show the NBA what they could have had if not for Stern.



Last edited by MJST on Tue Nov 18, 2014 3:39 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 3:31 pm    Post subject:

MJST wrote:
Chris Paul.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 3:36 pm    Post subject:

tirebiter wrote:
22 wrote:
ppineda wrote:
22 wrote:
Ossim wrote:
None of this explains why Lin was able to play effectively with Harden but has been a non-factor with Kobe.


So effective they had to package a 1st round pick to trade him right?


To be fair they got rid of Asik and Lin, solely to clear up capspace to sign Bosh. They thought that was a done deal. If they didn't believe they would get him, the Rockets would have kept both...


But if Lin was such a quality player they wouldn't have had to package a pick with him.

They RECEIVED a pick for trading Asik


two things:

1) asik is a much, much more valuable player than lin. no question. how many 7 ft elite defenders are out there? in fact, him being on this team instead of hill would've made a huge difference. his offense is as bad as hill but at least he's an elite paint defender.

2) at the time of lin's trade, the rockets had no leverage, and they were on the clock. everyone and their moms knew they were going after bosh and needed to trade lin in order to offer bosh a contract, and needed to do it quick. sixers wanted the top 5 pick from NO and of course morey wasn't going to give that up even if it meant getting rid of jeremy. the lakers asked for a little less to take lin off of their hands. i believe the lakers also gave them cash as well.

morey isn't known to be someone that would take a loss on a trade. lin is an expiring so it wouldn't have mattered to houston to keep him, and he was a great insurance in case harden gets hurt, averaging 20 and something while harden was out due to injury last year. but they were desperate the clear cap space, and so here we are.


I think Asik is a much better player than Hill. He is a way better defensive player, he sets really solid screens and rolls well too. His problem is hard hands, he fumbles a lot of balls but he's a much stronger inside presence. The center position is not stacked.

Lin is a big impact player as you said, Rockets would have been pathetic without him when Harden went down and he did rise to the occasion almost every time Harden was out of the game. But PG is a stacked position in the NBA and also Lin is still developing as a point guard. I think Lin will shut up all doubters in due time, but probably next season when he works on his weaknesses. I don't care about the starter vs. backup roles, I think he's a player that will get major minutes and close games when he develops more confidence in his ball-handling and gets more used to being a floor general. He's still learning that stuff now which is what Worthy has said plenty of times.

Where he ends up compared to others I don't care. I enjoy watching him when he does well and his approach to playing. He's a guy that is easy to root for. It's frustrating watching him not assert himself sometimes but he is who he is.
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MJST
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 3:39 pm    Post subject:

Anyone remember the all-star game the year of the veto when CP3 and Kobe put on a show to show what the NBA could have had if not for Stern in 2012? They also did great in 2011 when CP3 was still a Hornet.




Last edited by MJST on Tue Nov 18, 2014 3:52 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 3:43 pm    Post subject:

MJST wrote:
Anyone remember the all-star game the year of the veto when CP3 and Kobe put on a show to show what the NBA could have had if not for Stern?




Yes, and then Kobe's tweet about his daughter and CP3's son playing together and it not being vetoed
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MJST
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 3:52 pm    Post subject:

Yep. In 2011 when CP3 was a hornet him and Kobe put on a show and in 2012 They put on a show to make a statement and Kobe was on his way to an MVP game and Wade broke his nose -_-

How sad we never got to see CP3/Kobe combination except in those all-star games. He's really the perfect PG that would have waived off Kobe and known when to take initiative and vice versa.

It was the perfect move to make and the perfect point guard to put next to Kobe.

But alas, Stern did what he did.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 3:55 pm    Post subject:

MJST wrote:
Yep. In 2011 when CP3 was a hornet him and Kobe put on a show and in 2012 They put on a show to make a statement.

How sad we never got to see it except in those all-star games.

Even sadder still, some here think the veto was ok and that Kobe and CP3 wouldn't have played well together anyway *sigh*
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Tagurt
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 4:05 pm    Post subject:

Having fun in an allstar game is in no way comparable to working full-time together. Kobe handles the rock a lot not because the PG he played with is incompetent, but because he wants the ball in his hands to do his things. It wouldn't matter if Paul is on the team, Kobe would take the ball away from him and run iso. If that happens, then who would people here side on? I think most would still side with Kobe because he has been with the Lakers longer and Paul is still ringless.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 4:08 pm    Post subject:

The triangle didn't need a PG. But Kobe did well enough with Fish, Payton, Farmar, and even NVE in the early days.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 4:12 pm    Post subject:

Tagurt wrote:
Having fun in an allstar game is in no way comparable to working full-time together. Kobe handles the rock a lot not because the PG he played with is incompetent, but because he wants the ball in his hands to do his things. It wouldn't matter if Paul is on the team, Kobe would take the ball away from him and run iso. If that happens, then who would people here side on? I think most would still side with Kobe because he has been with the Lakers longer and Paul is still ringless.


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LoLakers13
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 5:43 pm    Post subject:

Best PG to play with kobe and make it work: Pau Gasol.
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troy
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 8:20 pm    Post subject:

22 wrote:
troy wrote:
22 wrote:
pd24 wrote:
troy wrote:
evetssteve10 wrote:
Kobe has elevated just about every player he has ever played with - only Kobe could make smush Parker a PG on a playoff team. Dumb question


Really? Is he elevating Lin? Was Smush "elevated" enough to earn respect from the Laker fans, and earn a long term contract? How about Farmar? Sessions? Chucky Atkins? Anyone?

Of all of these PG's that couldn't play with Kobe, what one left the Lakers and played much better than he did in his time here? None..

This the real question. And we'll be waiting forever before someone answers it


You've already answered your own contention. The Lakers could never secure a decent PG because none would play with Kobe, or none could develop into quality players with Kobe screwing up the flow of the offense. Remember, and I keep saying this, Phil Jackson said that Kobe was uncoachable. Shaq despised playing with Kobe. No free agent came our way last off season, probably because of Kobe, and now Lin and Boozer are echoing what past Laker players are saying...it can't be one person hogging the ball and messing up the rhythm of the offense.

Perhaps you should stop hating on me and start hearing what actual players, analysis, and fans have been saying for years. And even Kobe himself said it...HE'S DIFFICULT TO PLAY WITH. His words, not mine.


This post is 100% BS and false.

Give 1 example of the bolded


Farmar and Sessions come to mind.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 5:04 am    Post subject:

I think Kobe would work just fine with a PG that can do duel roles. Someone that thrives in catch and shoot and also can create himself.

I really hated that Phil wasn't coach and that Nash was hurt. Because on paper Nash had all the ingredients to be an outstanding secondary guard for us. He could create via S/R, he could facilitate in the Tri and he could play off Kobe and shoot 3's very well. We were robbed of that chance due to not hiring Phil and Nash being hurt so often.

I still say if this is about Lin not thriving - Lin didn't thrive in HOU either. This is who he is. He has been playing like this in NY and HOU and now LA. He's a good backup and a so-so starter. He shouldn't be starting on a good team.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 5:13 am    Post subject:

Why exclude D Fish?
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 5:24 am    Post subject:

Cancun Van Exel wrote:
KBH wrote:
Cancun Van Exel wrote:
KBH wrote:
Cancun Van Exel wrote:
Ossim wrote:
Also look at the PG's who played with Jordan: BJ Armstrong, Steve Kerr, Ron Harper, Bill Paxson. None of those guys initiated the offense. So if you think about it, the PG position when playing along guys like Bryant and Jordan consists of handing ball off to super star guard, and then camping in a spot to hit a 3.


This is true, yet we traded 2 #1 picks for a pick n roll PG, Nash. Then when that went (bleep) up, we traded for another pick n roll PG, Lin


We got a first round pick for Lin. Well worth it no matter what he does on the court.


The pick is great but why not pick up a Patrick Beverly type to play with Kobe if Lin doesn't work this year? Someone who can handle the ball a little but can play defense and shoot. Too obvious for this FO, I guess. Also, if we're prioritizing acquiring assets (like HOU #1 pick) , why are we paying Kobe $24mil?


1. Because Patrick Beverly wasn't available and the Rockets wouldn't give us a first round pick with him. The Lakers need to acquire assets to get back to where you want them to be. Which is winning titles. Lets say we got Beverly instead of Lin. Does that even make us 5-4 rather than 1-8? No. And for argument's sake let's say it does lead us to being 5-4 rather than 1-8. That would leave us fighting for the eighth seed in the west. Which means we would either be getting blasted in the first round by the top seed or out of the playoffs. First round exit and no picks to show for this season. What did we gain?

2. Lin can do all of the things you said when he's playing in a modern NBA offense with proper spacing. He did it in Houston and he did it in New York.

3. Why are we paying Kobe $24 million. The company line is rewarding their superstars, which has some truth to it. The other reasons are to sell tickets and keep TV ratings as well as having something of a selling point of playing with Kobe for the free agents we were swinging for (Lebron, Melo). After we missed on those guys, the FO switched gears to asset acquisition.


1. I said Patrick Beverley "type". they're readily available all over the European and D Leagues. Small defender with a shot.

2. That is my point. Lin doesn't fit with Kobe and that was easy to predict for everybody except our FO. Nash didn't fit either (if healthy).

3. fair enough but it was a big gamble to have this albatross of a contract on the books if we have to turn to rebuilding. it's a set back. the mistake was made when they prioritized a mid 30's star over a star still in his prime (Howard). We'd be re-tooling now, not rebuilding if that was handled properly. I'm not ok with the path we chose personally.


Then the best bet is to dig up one of these Patrick Beverley types from the Euro/D-league now. I'm sure they are easily available. Anyone who can shoot a decent 3 pointer, run around hounding people, dribble up court to pass, and give you about 8 points and 2 assists a night. It shouldnt be hard.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 5:40 am    Post subject:

22 wrote:
tirebiter wrote:
22 wrote:
ppineda wrote:
22 wrote:
Ossim wrote:
None of this explains why Lin was able to play effectively with Harden but has been a non-factor with Kobe.


So effective they had to package a 1st round pick to trade him right?


To be fair they got rid of Asik and Lin, solely to clear up capspace to sign Bosh. They thought that was a done deal. If they didn't believe they would get him, the Rockets would have kept both...


But if Lin was such a quality player they wouldn't have had to package a pick with him.

They RECEIVED a pick for trading Asik


two things:

1) asik is a much, much more valuable player than lin. no question. how many 7 ft elite defenders are out there? in fact, him being on this team instead of hill would've made a huge difference. his offense is as bad as hill but at least he's an elite paint defender.

2) at the time of lin's trade, the rockets had no leverage, and they were on the clock. everyone and their moms knew they were going after bosh and needed to trade lin in order to offer bosh a contract, and needed to do it quick. sixers wanted the top 5 pick from NO and of course morey wasn't going to give that up even if it meant getting rid of jeremy. the lakers asked for a little less to take lin off of their hands. i believe the lakers also gave them cash as well.

morey isn't known to be someone that would take a loss on a trade. lin is an expiring so it wouldn't have mattered to houston to keep him, and he was a great insurance in case harden gets hurt, averaging 20 and something while harden was out due to injury last year. but they were desperate the clear cap space, and so here we are.


Meh still not convincing me. Any team would take a quality player off another team's hands for free. ESPECIALLY an asset strapped team like us. For us to demand a first and a second in addition to Lin would have been super ballsy.

For example, would Chi have to give up anything to get rid of Butler? Heck would even Orl have to give up anything to give up Tobias Harris?

Quality young players don't require packaging picks with them to be moved. Lin isn't as bad as he's played, but it's likely he's a backup player at best


A bad contract is not equal to a bad player. Quality young players WITH A GOOD CONTRACT don't require packaging picks with them to be moved. SUPERSTARS (who seldom have bad contract) don't require packaging picks with them to be moved.

Why Lin's contract is a bad one after 2 years? 1. It is backloaded with $15 mm payment in the last year, for a $8 mm per year contract. 2. It is a one year rental.

The situation became worse for Houston when they have to trade him in a day or two. At that time the whole league was just starting to figure things out since a lot of trade was dependent on Lebron and Anthony's decision. Lakers' FO probably had Lebron to thank for the home run that in Lin's trade.
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