A thought: They hate him now, because he truly doesn't care what they think...
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Gwyn
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2014 6:57 pm    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
THE_TWELFTH wrote:
I believe stat guys "hate" Kobe, because he's an obstacle to their movement.


Kobe has been as much of an obstacle to their movement as a barbed wire fence is to the north wind. If anything, he has been a boon to their movement because his extreme style of play is easy to deconstruct.


I'm sure Kobe gives a (bleep) about their metrics. The guy brought home rings even when he wasn't the highest ranked by those metrics.

I'll take that over the paper-douches who don't bring home the bacon.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2014 7:05 pm    Post subject:

"Stat guys" hate Kobe because his greatness makes their stats look like what they are...fabricated, irrelevant BS. Anyone with intelligence sees right through them.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2014 10:42 pm    Post subject:

The intelligent see the numbers, but the wise see beyond the numbers.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 12:04 am    Post subject:

kray28_ wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
Thought, nobody hates him




Kobe is still the snitchdevil rapist ballhog to a majority of NBA fans. It gets worse for him when he threatens the legacy of an established brand deity like Michael Jordan.

Are we talking about the same Kobe who has tons of people wearing his jersey at every road game?
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 2:40 am    Post subject:

BSPNs, along with many fans here, are ridiculos. Instead of appreciating Kobe's good performance coming back from serious injuries, all they want to talk about is the suppose ineffeciency of Kobe's shots.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 3:39 am    Post subject:

I think there should be a balance. The more efficient you are, especially for a player like Kobe, the more wins you get. It's not a coincidence that the years in which he had his highest PERs coincided with the years he won championships, except for the year in which he had his highest PER (when he didn't win a title) which indicates that he did too much that year even though he did it effectively and efficiently. Understandably so given the talent he was surrounded with, at first he tried to take it easy but they ended up missing the playoffs so he came back the next year gunning. Kobe is trying to recreate that this time around but he is WAY past his prime and can't create that magic again, his body just won't let him. So now he needs to do the right thing as a 19 year veteran and lead by nurturing and create a TEAM culture to invite the help he needs to be able to allow him to retire gracefully.

Some fans hate Kobe, but a lot more LOVE him. No other player not even Jordan got MVP chants in other team's arenas let alone the team's most hated rivals. Kobe will go down as one of the all time greats and his legacy and career will be dissected to try to understand his career path as he is unique. No other player has won it all as both a Beta and an Alpha of a team in the way Bryant as done. (Obviously names like Wade and Kareem comes to mind but its not in the same fashion for obvious reasons). Some simpletons will try to give majority of the credit to his big men, while others will recognize his true greatness. One thing is for sure, he has done more than enough to get his name mentioned when people talk about the greats, which I'm sure was his ultimate goal all along.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 7:57 am    Post subject:

Sniper008 wrote:
I think there should be a balance. The more efficient you are, especially for a player like Kobe, the more wins you get. It's not a coincidence that the years in which he had his highest PERs coincided with the years he won championships, except for the year in which he had his highest PER (when he didn't win a title) which indicates that he did too much that year even though he did it effectively and efficiently.


Well, come on. One player does not win a championship. The top 11 slots in all-time single season PER are held by Wilt, MJ, and Lebron. But most of those seasons were not title years. The highest rated title seasons are MJ at 5 and Lebron at 7. MJ's best season (as measured by PER) was '88, but he did not have a championship quality team.

Efficient or not, Kobe never won anything without a championship quality team. Neither did anyone else. We could debate (and have debated) the question of who had the weakest supporting cast ever on a championship team. My pick is the '94 Rockets. But even that was a pretty good squad -- Otis Thorpe, Vernon Maxwell, Kenny Smith, a young Sam Cassell, a young Robert Horry.

You don't just hand the ball to Kobe and expect a championship. He'll give you a ton of points, and he'll make things exciting, but that's about it. That's what happened in 2006 and 2007.

The challenge for the Lakers with Kobe has always been finding the sort of supporting cast that functions well with him. Other players understand that Kobe is inefficient, though they don't think of it in those terms. They see the number of shots that he takes and his tendency to develop tunnel vision for long stretches of games. Some guys just can't handle playing with someone like that.

Kobe has never been about efficiency. The OP is right in this respect -- Kobe is a dinosaur as we enter the age of quantitative analysis. If another player like Kobe comes along, coaches and GMs won't be as tolerant. We've seen the same thing in baseball. A few years back, there was no shortage of old schoolers like Joe Morgan railing against statistics. There are still a few of them out there, but the war has been lost.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 8:06 am    Post subject:

tw-lakbfan wrote:
BSPNs, along with many fans here, are ridiculos. Instead of appreciating Kobe's good performance coming back from serious injuries, all they want to talk about is the suppose ineffeciency of Kobe's shots.


It's a reflection that Kobe is the last of a dying breed. Very few (if not none) like him who will for better or worse, do things his way no matter what.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 9:27 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
Sniper008 wrote:
I think there should be a balance. The more efficient you are, especially for a player like Kobe, the more wins you get. It's not a coincidence that the years in which he had his highest PERs coincided with the years he won championships, except for the year in which he had his highest PER (when he didn't win a title) which indicates that he did too much that year even though he did it effectively and efficiently.


Well, come on. One player does not win a championship. The top 11 slots in all-time single season PER are held by Wilt, MJ, and Lebron. But most of those seasons were not title years. The highest rated title seasons are MJ at 5 and Lebron at 7. MJ's best season (as measured by PER) was '88, but he did not have a championship quality team.

Efficient or not, Kobe never won anything without a championship quality team. Neither did anyone else. We could debate (and have debated) the question of who had the weakest supporting cast ever on a championship team. My pick is the '94 Rockets. But even that was a pretty good squad -- Otis Thorpe, Vernon Maxwell, Kenny Smith, a young Sam Cassell, a young Robert Horry.

You don't just hand the ball to Kobe and expect a championship. He'll give you a ton of points, and he'll make things exciting, but that's about it. That's what happened in 2006 and 2007.

The challenge for the Lakers with Kobe has always been finding the sort of supporting cast that functions well with him. Other players understand that Kobe is inefficient, though they don't think of it in those terms. They see the number of shots that he takes and his tendency to develop tunnel vision for long stretches of games. Some guys just can't handle playing with someone like that.

Kobe has never been about efficiency. The OP is right in this respect -- Kobe is a dinosaur as we enter the age of quantitative analysis. If another player like Kobe comes along, coaches and GMs won't be as tolerant. We've seen the same thing in baseball. A few years back, there was no shortage of old schoolers like Joe Morgan railing against statistics. There are still a few of them out there, but the war has been lost.


So in a nutshell you are agreeing with me, super high PER numbers suggests the player is doing too much on the team, hence the need for a balance. I'll put Dirks name up there too as a player that has won with the least supporting cast but a solid team nonetheless.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 11:11 am    Post subject:

Sniper008 wrote:
So in a nutshell you are agreeing with me, super high PER numbers suggests the player is doing too much on the team, hence the need for a balance. I'll put Dirks name up there too as a player that has won with the least supporting cast but a solid team nonetheless.


I'm not sure what you mean by a "balance." All else equal, you would always prefer a higher PER (or whatever measure you prefer). What I am saying is that there is never going to be a consistent correlation between PER and winning titles because the former is an individual stat and the latter is a team accomplishment. The highest PER of all time was Wilt in '63: 44.8 PPG and 24.3 RPG. The team went 31-49. Why? Well, look at the reset of the roster.

Does that mean that Wilt was doing too much on the team? Not really. It means that he had a poor supporting cast. I doubt that anyone thought that Guy Rodgers and Tom Meschery should be taking more shots on that team.

Having said all of that, I do agree with you that PER is influenced by how much a player is doing in a particular season. If you shoot more, or rebound more, or block more shots, your PER will go up (assuming that you are shooting at the same percentage and are not generating more negative stats like turnovers). But that a function of PER, not statistical analysis in general. PER is intended to be a composite box score stat -- who is the most efficient at generating box score stats? Volume matters for that sort of stat. PER has its place and its uses, but other than John Hollinger, you would be hard pressed to find anyone who thinks that it is a talismanic stat.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 12:59 pm    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
Sniper008 wrote:
So in a nutshell you are agreeing with me, super high PER numbers suggests the player is doing too much on the team, hence the need for a balance. I'll put Dirks name up there too as a player that has won with the least supporting cast but a solid team nonetheless.


I'm not sure what you mean by a "balance." All else equal, you would always prefer a higher PER (or whatever measure you prefer). What I am saying is that there is never going to be a consistent correlation between PER and winning titles because the former is an individual stat and the latter is a team accomplishment. The highest PER of all time was Wilt in '63: 44.8 PPG and 24.3 RPG. The team went 31-49. Why? Well, look at the reset of the roster.

Does that mean that Wilt was doing too much on the team? Not really. It means that he had a poor supporting cast. I doubt that anyone thought that Guy Rodgers and Tom Meschery should be taking more shots on that team.

Having said all of that, I do agree with you that PER is influenced by how much a player is doing in a particular season. If you shoot more, or rebound more, or block more shots, your PER will go up (assuming that you are shooting at the same percentage and are not generating more negative stats like turnovers). But that a function of PER, not statistical analysis in general. PER is intended to be a composite box score stat -- who is the most efficient at generating box score stats? Volume matters for that sort of stat. PER has its place and its uses, but other than John Hollinger, you would be hard pressed to find anyone who thinks that it is a talismanic stat.


Yes Wilt was doing too much because he had a bad supporting cast.

I never said there was a correlation between high PERs and winning titles. I said its no coincidence in Kobe's case (which I noted was unique) because he unlike most top 10 - 15 GOAT players have always been surrounded by a great collection of talent, and he has had to sacrifice his individual numbers most notably his usage rating which spikes up a player's PER, so on those talented teams when Kobe has been his most efficient and most effective (high PERs for his standard) he has won championships. The only time he didn't win when he had his highest PER was when he tried to do too much on the team and his usage rating was through the roof because he had a bad supporting cast, hence the need for a balance. The balance in regards to having a solid supporting cast and being efficient and effective as the leader of the team. I have no doubts that if Kobe had been on horrible teams to start his career like many other greats he would have had PERs in the 30s but he wouldn't have the 5 championship rings he has now.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 1:41 pm    Post subject:

Treble Clef wrote:
kray28_ wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
Thought, nobody hates him




Kobe is still the snitchdevil rapist ballhog to a majority of NBA fans. It gets worse for him when he threatens the legacy of an established brand deity like Michael Jordan.

Are we talking about the same Kobe who has tons of people wearing his jersey at every road game?


Yes we are. And for all the fans, there's as many, if not more haters.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 2:23 pm    Post subject:

kray28_ wrote:
Treble Clef wrote:
kray28_ wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
Thought, nobody hates him




Kobe is still the snitchdevil rapist ballhog to a majority of NBA fans. It gets worse for him when he threatens the legacy of an established brand deity like Michael Jordan.

Are we talking about the same Kobe who has tons of people wearing his jersey at every road game?


Yes we are. And for all the fans, there's as many, if not more haters.

Yea, interesting logic...a player can't be hated if he's popular? Lol. I love how a lot of the more notorious haters in the media have had to adjust the way they explain their hate...so before they would just straight up bash him for not being a good teammate, not as good as whoever. But now, they have this new thing where they say things like:
He's not the best player in the league, but the most entertaining. Lol. ok.
or
I want Kobe to take the last shot, but Lebron is a better player. lol!!

My question is, if there's a guy who is the best for a single play at the end of the game, why isn't that the best person for other plays of the game? Are they different skill sets? Just a clever way of avoiding the fact that he's the best. Better than MJ.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 7:08 pm    Post subject:

Sniper008 wrote:
I never said there was a correlation between high PERs and winning titles. I said its no coincidence in Kobe's case (which I noted was unique) because he unlike most top 10 - 15 GOAT players have always been surrounded by a great collection of talent, and he has had to sacrifice his individual numbers most notably his usage rating which spikes up a player's PER, so on those talented teams when Kobe has been his most efficient and most effective (high PERs for his standard) he has won championships.


I don't know that there has really been a correlation between Kobe's usage rate and his PER. Furthermore, Kobe had one of his worst PERs in '10, when we won the title. I think the injuries had something to do with that.

Anyway, PER doesn't capture Kobe very well. Kobe's greatness lies in volume point production, intimidating defense (at least in his younger days), and that certain "it" factor that just can't be captured by stats. Kobe's game was never about efficiency. It was about sheer determination and power. In his day, he freaked out opposing teams and coaches more than any other player since MJ (and, frankly, probably more than MJ). Even now, watching him play against the Mavericks, you see the defense freaking out even though he is having a subpar shooting night (I am writing this at halftime).

Quantitative analysis is the new paradigm in the NBA, but it will never do Kobe justice. PER is a composite box score stat, and Kobe's greatest doesn't lie in the box scores. There are better statistical measures now, but Kobe's impact just can't be fully captured by statistics.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 9:21 pm    Post subject:

Kobe is hated unjustifiably by many. Kobe makes these stat obssessors confounded
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 9:25 pm    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
Sniper008 wrote:
I never said there was a correlation between high PERs and winning titles. I said its no coincidence in Kobe's case (which I noted was unique) because he unlike most top 10 - 15 GOAT players have always been surrounded by a great collection of talent, and he has had to sacrifice his individual numbers most notably his usage rating which spikes up a player's PER, so on those talented teams when Kobe has been his most efficient and most effective (high PERs for his standard) he has won championships.


I don't know that there has really been a correlation between Kobe's usage rate and his PER. Furthermore, Kobe had one of his worst PERs in '10, when we won the title. I think the injuries had something to do with that.

Anyway, PER doesn't capture Kobe very well. Kobe's greatness lies in volume point production, intimidating defense (at least in his younger days), and that certain "it" factor that just can't be captured by stats. Kobe's game was never about efficiency. It was about sheer determination and power. In his day, he freaked out opposing teams and coaches more than any other player since MJ (and, frankly, probably more than MJ). Even now, watching him play against the Mavericks, you see the defense freaking out even though he is having a subpar shooting night (I am writing this at halftime).

Quantitative analysis is the new paradigm in the NBA, but it will never do Kobe justice. PER is a composite box score stat, and Kobe's greatest doesn't lie in the box scores. There are better statistical measures now, but Kobe's impact just can't be fully captured by statistics.



Very well stated.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 9:28 pm    Post subject:

He is about to become 3rd place on the NBA All Time scoring list while passing what many (not I though) feel is the greatest player in NBA history.

5 titles, 2 olympic gold medals. Kobe is in the argument legitimately as one of the top 5 players of all time, maybe higher than top 5 like top 2 or 3 depending on your viewpoint.

That is a pretty good career I would say by any estimation, even his biggest critic would have to respect Kobe's accompilishments.

Oh yeah, 20 years...all for one glorious team on the glamour franchise.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2014 12:02 am    Post subject:

Kobe's fatal flaw is his ability to do anything on the court at anytime. It makes him "less efficient" but also very entertaining. He has every move in the book and then some. He likes to show up opponents. He likes to take the difficult yet gratifying fadeaways, right in their grill. Some hate him, some love him, but he is relevant to everyone and that is what makes him unique.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2014 7:15 am    Post subject:

pmacla wrote:
alot of the negativity and critical articles are coming from the fact that Kobe is about to pass BSPN's original golden child MJ on the all time scoring list, alot is being done to diminish how he has gotten there and how he isnt MJ.

Well news flash MJ wasnt Kobe either, they have similarities but MJ scored alot of his buckets within 10 feet of the basket and from the line while the majority of Kobe's buckets have come from 16 feet and out and much more from the 3 pt line and less fta per game than MJ

Most never mention or know that Kobe has made over 1000 more 3 pters in his career, yes his shooting % is less than than MJ's he took tougher shots, yes he took more games he didnt start first 2 years in the league than had to share the ball with Shaq, Bulls where so bad when MJ came in league that he had free reign game one and when Orlando Woolridge or any other player took too many shot away from MJ they got rid of them.

Is Kobe the perfect player no, is he the best ever thats a debate that can never be answered by "stats" alone, but he isnt this pariah that the media and some Lakers "fans" and posters here have made him out to be, he has done alot for the Lakers and is a living the legend and quite frankly it is sickening that his swan song he is getting more critiscim than celebrating not only what he has done but the remarkable things he is doing at age 36 coming off the achilles

Unfortunately, Kobe will not be truly appreciated by many until he is gone from the league for a good 5 years


U just tried to transfer the anti-Kobe sentiment to make it anti-Jordan. Jordan shoots and scores a lot but he does it in context of the offense. The triangle offense works because it fit Jordan's style.of play. Lakers have no real offense just a bunch is sets that are unrelated. Watch a spread offense football team. The can run one play three straight times and the results will look like three different plays. When Lakers run play through Kobe the ball stops. People run to a spot and stand and watch. U know u can run the offense through Kobe with the intention of him.passing the ball. Watch sa and Duncan. U really think that giving Duncan the ball at the high post is so he can iso his man from 15 feet?
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2014 7:41 am    Post subject:

Do you consider someone who can criticise Kobe on some aspects of his game a hater ?

I have noticed people are very quick to call you a hater theses days... Kobe definately deserve some of the cricitisms. His %ages are kind of alarming and his shot selection is getting worse by the game. I'am hoping Byron reduces his minutes and I'am hoping Lin can become a consistent player who can handle the ball more than he has the first 10 games. Kobe desperatly needs a point guard right now. A guy who can create and penetrate for him and give him easy looks so he can save his legs for the 4th quarter.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2014 7:55 am    Post subject:

everyone constructs narrative necessarily for their understanding of the world. And that extends to basketball. People "hate" and are frustrated by anomalous events counter to their own narratives. In that sense Kobe is a target of the metrics guys, but don't be blind to your own biases
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2014 3:31 pm    Post subject:

zePokar wrote:
Do you consider someone who can criticise Kobe on some aspects of his game a hater ?

I have noticed people are very quick to call you a hater theses days... Kobe definately deserve some of the cricitisms. His %ages are kind of alarming and his shot selection is getting worse by the game. I'am hoping Byron reduces his minutes and I'am hoping Lin can become a consistent player who can handle the ball more than he has the first 10 games. Kobe desperatly needs a point guard right now. A guy who can create and penetrate for him and give him easy looks so he can save his legs for the 4th quarter.

According to the unwritten rules, if you criticize kobe you're a hater or a troll. I'm glad I'm on kobe's side.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2014 4:11 pm    Post subject:

It's not that they dislike his game.

It's more like everyone knows that Kobe's game can't take you to the top, yet he is still being paid as a top player in the league, which he is not.

Still, meh, is a Lakers problem, so only the fans of that team (and not the Kobe fanbois) should be the ones that care the most, rest can think whatever they want.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2014 9:05 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
Sniper008 wrote:
I think there should be a balance. The more efficient you are, especially for a player like Kobe, the more wins you get. It's not a coincidence that the years in which he had his highest PERs coincided with the years he won championships, except for the year in which he had his highest PER (when he didn't win a title) which indicates that he did too much that year even though he did it effectively and efficiently.


Well, come on. One player does not win a championship. The top 11 slots in all-time single season PER are held by Wilt, MJ, and Lebron. But most of those seasons were not title years. The highest rated title seasons are MJ at 5 and Lebron at 7. MJ's best season (as measured by PER) was '88, but he did not have a championship quality team.

Efficient or not, Kobe never won anything without a championship quality team. Neither did anyone else. We could debate (and have debated) the question of who had the weakest supporting cast ever on a championship team. My pick is the '94 Rockets. But even that was a pretty good squad -- Otis Thorpe, Vernon Maxwell, Kenny Smith, a young Sam Cassell, a young Robert Horry.

You don't just hand the ball to Kobe and expect a championship. He'll give you a ton of points, and he'll make things exciting, but that's about it. That's what happened in 2006 and 2007.

The challenge for the Lakers with Kobe has always been finding the sort of supporting cast that functions well with him. Other players understand that Kobe is inefficient, though they don't think of it in those terms. They see the number of shots that he takes and his tendency to develop tunnel vision for long stretches of games. Some guys just can't handle playing with someone like that.

Kobe has never been about efficiency. The OP is right in this respect -- Kobe is a dinosaur as we enter the age of quantitative analysis. If another player like Kobe comes along, coaches and GMs won't be as tolerant. We've seen the same thing in baseball. A few years back, there was no shortage of old schoolers like Joe Morgan railing against statistics. There are still a few of them out there, but the war has been lost.


KEYPOINT Aeneas Hunter wrote:
Efficient or not, Kobe never won anything without a championship quality team. Neither did anyone else.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2014 9:17 am    Post subject:

venturalakersfan wrote:
Thought, nobody hates him

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