Lots of reminiscing of old times from rose colored glasses. Who can forget Bynum, Odom, Farmar, Walton, Ariza, etc. being out for stretches during seasons (with McKechnie and Schieffer). The big difference from now and then is the depth the team had to withstand the injuries. Right now we have no depth, the backups are not even adequate to be backups on most teams. Would having both of them help? Absolutely. But they wouldn't solve all our injury problems. Injuries are going to happen.
Walton and Bynum were genetically broken and somehow we got several years out of them.
Farmar and Odom I don't remember being out so much that it was a problem. Ariza broke his foot right after joining us or something like that right? Maybe our guys didn't have time to work with him properly.
Be wary of your 'several seasons' of Bynum. he played sparse minutes off the bench each season and didn't have much time on the court.
The first year he started was when he got injured.
Then the second year he started he got injured, but was back in the playoffs
The third year he started he was held together but still had to miss time due to his injuries and I think he missed most of the last month of the season.
The fourth year he started was his really only healthy year eventhough his knee was a problem all year and had to triple and quadriple wrapped and this was in Mckenzie's absense.
Having Gasol those seasons was very vital to the Lakers success as even with Mckenzie here Bynum would have missed his share of games.
Anyway since his best and most healthy year(Mike Brown's first) when he made it as an all star he's played maybe 5 games since that season.
When you look at the injuries that fell the Lakers, Mckenzie wasn't gonna stop Nash from getting his leg broken. And that was something that once it happened spelled the end for his career for the most part.
Mckenzie has been replaced by DiFrancesco aka grass-fed it's not like the Lakers just have all these positions that are empty, DiFrancesco is doing what he used to do aka grass-fed Tim.
Sometimes there is no quick fix answer unfortunately. Eventhough fans want someone to blame, someone to point the finger at, something that could have changed the misfortunes... If Phil was coaching, if this guy was hired, if this guy wasn't hired, if only we'd kept this guy over Nash despite 2011 Nash coming off of a still efficient year and no GM wouldn't pick him.
Sometimes you truly are victim of circumstance and there is no fingers to point at any 'one' thing in particular that landed you where you landed.
Fact of the matter is the Lakers went for the home run and struck out. We can sit back and say if Malone didn't get injured in 04 we win a championship and if Nash never gets his leg broken by Lillard in 12 that things could have been different but these things happen.
When you are on top for so long or in the spotlight of making gigantic moves as often as the Lakers do you're going to have instances where it seems like it happens more to you than others.
But compare our luck with the Thunders
They lose Harden in an off-season because they wouldn't amnesty Perkins
They lose Westbrook in the playoffs that year they ran for a championship
They lose Ibaka the next year they try to make a championship run in the playoffs
They lose Durant before the season takes place and follows it up by losing Morrow, Jackson, Lamb and now Westbrook before the 2nd game of the current season.
I'm pretty sure their fans feel 'cursed' too when just 3 years ago they were in the finals.
Some of you guys are so linear in thinking you just don't get it.
Some here literally think some person can actually prevent a freak injury like someone landing on someone else's knee from getting hurt? Really?
Bynum got hurt because Odom landed on his knee, then the next year Kobe landed on his knee. Nothing would've prevented that injury from happening. Not even McKechnie or even Mother Theresa.
MJST wrote:
When you look at the injuries that fell the Lakers, Mckenzie wasn't gonna stop Nash from getting his leg broken. And that was something that once it happened spelled the end for his career for the most part.
Lakers had said Nash's knee injury was just a bruise and not serious, that they gave him the okay to continue playing against Portland. After the MRI they said Nash would only miss about 1-2 weeks and that his knee injury is fully recoverable.
What really spelled Nash's end was him developing nerve irritation from improper recovery. Same nerve irritation that made him sit out most the Playoffs vs Spurs, and missing 67 games last season, and why he won't be playing at all this season. Nothing would've prevented Nash from getting hurt, but conditioning and proper recovery could've prevented severe nerve irritation from developing which Dr. Klapper has been pointing out over and over.
Have you noticed our players take much much longer recovering from their injuries these last 2 years?
What's happening to the Lakers right now is small contact ends up becoming a player is out 6-8 weeks. Another example, Nick Young last season was supposed to only miss 2 weeks from his injury ended up almost out 5-6 weeks. Same with Gasol, Xavier, Hill, Nash and practically half our roster last year.
MJST wrote:
Mckenzie has been replaced by DiFrancesco aka grass-fed it's not like the Lakers just have all these positions that are empty, DiFrancesco is doing what he used to do aka grass-fed Tim.
I don't know much about both DiFrancesco or McKenchie but basic Google search reveals that McKechnie is world reknown, international trainer that is sought out by teams of different sports, kind of like the Phil Jackson of his field.
Joined: 21 Feb 2008 Posts: 28431 Location: LA --> Bay Area
Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 8:43 am Post subject:
Nashlight wrote:
Some of you guys are so linear in thinking you just don't get it.
Some here literally think some person can actually prevent a freak injury like someone landing on someone else's knee from getting hurt? Really?
Bynum got hurt because Odom landed on his knee, then the next year Kobe landed on his knee. Nothing would've prevented that injury from happening. Not even McKechnie or even Mother Theresa.
MJST wrote:
When you look at the injuries that fell the Lakers, Mckenzie wasn't gonna stop Nash from getting his leg broken. And that was something that once it happened spelled the end for his career for the most part.
Lakers had said Nash's knee injury was just a bruise and not serious, that they gave him the okay to continue playing against Portland. After the MRI they said Nash would only miss about 1-2 weeks and that his knee injury is fully recoverable.
What really spelled Nash's end was him developing nerve irritation from improper recovery. Same nerve irritation that made him sit out most the Playoffs vs Spurs, and missing 67 games last season, and why he won't be playing at all this season. Nothing would've prevented Nash from getting hurt, but conditioning and proper recovery could've prevented severe nerve irritation from developing which Dr. Klapper has been pointing out over and over.
Have you noticed our players take much much longer recovering from their injuries these last 2 years?
What's happening to the Lakers right now is small contact ends up becoming a player is out 6-8 weeks. Another example, Nick Young last season was supposed to only miss 2 weeks from his injury ended up almost out 5-6 weeks. Same with Gasol, Xavier, Hill, Nash and practically half our roster last year.
MJST wrote:
Mckenzie has been replaced by DiFrancesco aka grass-fed it's not like the Lakers just have all these positions that are empty, DiFrancesco is doing what he used to do aka grass-fed Tim.
I don't know much about both DiFrancesco or McKenchie but basic Google search reveals that McKechnie is world reknown, international trainer that is sought out by teams of different sports, kind of like the Phil Jackson of his field.
LAMAR DIDN'T LAND ON BYNUM'S KNEE. I'm so sick of that made up scenario. Bynum stepped on Lamar's foot, Lamar didn't land on him, didn't fall into him, didn't tackle his knee. Bynum was just super vulnerable to injury as his history shows, and when he stepped on Lamar's foot, instead of getting a sprained ankle at worst like most players, he dislocated his knee cap.
And yes, maybe Mckechnie could have possibly helped. Nobody can prevent of freak injuries, but you can minimize the chances of them happening, as well as improve conditioning and rehabilitation techniques. We did enjoy remarkable health at the right times when he was here, and the Raptors have been one of the healthiest teams the last couple of years, but correlation isn't always causation. I personally think losing him was a big blow, but we need a much larger sample size and need to consider a lot of other variables to know for sure.
Mckenzie has been replaced by DiFrancesco aka grass-fed it's not like the Lakers just have all these positions that are empty, DiFrancesco is doing what he used to do aka grass-fed Tim.
I don't know much about both DiFrancesco or McKenchie but basic Google search reveals that McKechnie is world reknown, international trainer that is sought out by teams of different sports, kind of like the Phil Jackson of his field.
We can play the blame game and turn correlation into causation all day if we wanted. Here's a case for DiFrancesco doing the same thing.
Metta also had nerve damage and injury while a Laker in our 3-peat year, it was part of the reason why he had such a terrible season the year we were swept by the Mavericks as he started breaking down in the 2nd half of the season and wasn't getting better nor given the proper recovery time and methods despite being barely able to walk up and down the court without pushing himself tremendously.
This happened on Mckenzie's time and recovery methods and it got to the point where Metta in the playoffs couldn't even lift to make a wide open dunk against the Mavs.
Metta admitted to complimenting retirement, and said he was 'saved' by the Lakers staff who fixed his nerve injuries and helped him recover properly(this was during DiFrancesco's first year) and Metta started to come on late in the season and look great before the suspension for elbowing Harden. That was part of the reason Metta was so excited because he felt he was finally back and he thanked the Lakers training staff from saving him from nerve damage that the year prior made him almost unable to dunk a basketball and consider retirement.
If we want to try to make correlation into causation and ignore all other variables like I'm seeing happen here to discredit DiFrancesco then we would have to blame Mckenzie for Metta's nerve problems and improper recovery and thus blame him for why we were swept by the Mavericks as Metta deteriorated all year. And then we would have to thank DiFrancesco and the staff and proper recovery for helping Metta come back the next year to start to return to form which he looked like he'd finally gotten back to, prior to the elbow to Harden.
We can also say that Bynum's healthiest year where he became an all-star was under DiFrancesco and Bynum hasn't played more than 5 games on any other team since leaving.
So if we want to make correlation into causation we could probably discredit and credit the other way around. As there are instances on both sides that could be credited or discredited from one or the other.
Just depends on what situation you decide to focus on and which situations you decide to ignore when making your argument, but Metta's nerve damage recovery as well as Bynum's all-star year were all under DiFrancesco. So it's not like he's done nothing, if we want to go that route of 'all correlation is by causation'.
We can play the blame game and turn correlation into causation all day if we wanted. Here's a case for DiFrancesco doing the same thing.
Metta also had nerve damage and injury while a Laker in our 3-peat year, it was part of the reason why he had such a terrible season the year we were swept by the Mavericks as he started breaking down in the 2nd half of the season and wasn't getting better nor given the proper recovery time and methods despite being barely able to walk up and down the court without pushing himself tremendously.
This happened on Mckenzie's time and recovery methods and it got to the point where Metta in the playoffs couldn't even lift to make a wide open dunk against the Mavs.
Metta admitted to complimenting retirement, and said he was 'saved' by the Lakers staff who fixed his nerve injuries and helped him recover properly(this was during DiFrancesco's first year) and Metta started to come on late in the season and look great before the suspension for elbowing Harden. That was part of the reason Metta was so excited because he felt he was finally back and he thanked the Lakers training staff from saving him from nerve damage that the year prior made him almost unable to dunk a basketball and consider retirement.
If we want to try to make correlation into causation and ignore all other variables like I'm seeing happen here to discredit DiFrancesco then we would have to blame Mckenzie for Metta's nerve problems and improper recovery and thus blame him for why we were swept by the Mavericks as Metta deteriorated all year. And then we would have to thank DiFrancesco and the staff and proper recovery for helping Metta come back the next year to start to return to form which he looked like he'd finally gotten back to, prior to the elbow to Harden.
We can also say that Bynum's healthiest year where he became an all-star was under DiFrancesco and Bynum hasn't played more than 5 games on any other team since leaving.
So if we want to make correlation into causation we could probably discredit and credit the other way around. As there are instances on both sides that could be credited or discredited from one or the other.
Just depends on what situation you decide to focus on and which situations you decide to ignore when making your argument, but Metta's nerve damage recovery as well as Bynum's all-star year were all under DiFrancesco. So it's not like he's done nothing, if we want to go that route of 'all correlation is by causation'.
Um, no.
Metta played all 82 games during 2010-2011 (Mckech).
The following year 2011-2012 Metta broke down and missed almost 20 games (DiFran). _________________
We can play the blame game and turn correlation into causation all day if we wanted. Here's a case for DiFrancesco doing the same thing.
Metta also had nerve damage and injury while a Laker in our 3-peat year, it was part of the reason why he had such a terrible season the year we were swept by the Mavericks as he started breaking down in the 2nd half of the season and wasn't getting better nor given the proper recovery time and methods despite being barely able to walk up and down the court without pushing himself tremendously.
This happened on Mckenzie's time and recovery methods and it got to the point where Metta in the playoffs couldn't even lift to make a wide open dunk against the Mavs.
Metta admitted to complimenting retirement, and said he was 'saved' by the Lakers staff who fixed his nerve injuries and helped him recover properly(this was during DiFrancesco's first year) and Metta started to come on late in the season and look great before the suspension for elbowing Harden. That was part of the reason Metta was so excited because he felt he was finally back and he thanked the Lakers training staff from saving him from nerve damage that the year prior made him almost unable to dunk a basketball and consider retirement.
If we want to try to make correlation into causation and ignore all other variables like I'm seeing happen here to discredit DiFrancesco then we would have to blame Mckenzie for Metta's nerve problems and improper recovery and thus blame him for why we were swept by the Mavericks as Metta deteriorated all year. And then we would have to thank DiFrancesco and the staff and proper recovery for helping Metta come back the next year to start to return to form which he looked like he'd finally gotten back to, prior to the elbow to Harden.
We can also say that Bynum's healthiest year where he became an all-star was under DiFrancesco and Bynum hasn't played more than 5 games on any other team since leaving.
So if we want to make correlation into causation we could probably discredit and credit the other way around. As there are instances on both sides that could be credited or discredited from one or the other.
Just depends on what situation you decide to focus on and which situations you decide to ignore when making your argument, but Metta's nerve damage recovery as well as Bynum's all-star year were all under DiFrancesco. So it's not like he's done nothing, if we want to go that route of 'all correlation is by causation'.
Um, no.
Metta played all 82 games during 2010-2011 (Mckech). The following year 2011-2012 Metta broke down and missed almost 20 games (DiFran).
Metta playing all 82 games has nothing to do with it, if anything it made it worse.
Metta was dealing with his nerve damage during the second half of the 2010-2011 season, he STILL played, but it was progressing terribly and it finally came to a head against the Mavs that year when we were swept and Metta couldn't even get off the ground for a dunk, the hint should have been taken when the Lakers finished the season 3-5 with 5 straight losses and Metta looking like a shell of himself barely able to get up and down the court, but his minutes stayed at 32 and he never got proper recovery, and it came back to bite them. This was on Mckech's time.
The next year was when DiFrancesco had taken over and he worked on Metta that entire year and Metta started finally turning it around in the second half of the season and was averaging 14 points on 47% shooting the month right before he was suspended despite starting the season scoring 3 points a game on 26% shooting. It was DiFrancesco's year where Metta recovered, it was during Mckech's final year that Metta broke down with nerve damage. It didn't stop him from playing, but there's a reason he finished the season shooting 28% from the field. He pushed what last he had left in the first round, was gone in the water in the second round and it culminated with that fast break dunk miss vs the Mavs in our 4th and final game of that playoff run.
Metta broke down the year before the lockout in 2010-2011. The off-season of the lockout was when Mckech was fired. 2011-2012 was Metta's recovery year where he started slow, and finished the season strong when his career was 'saved'. There's a reason Metta swears by DiFrancesco and his methods and they formed such a close relationship.
We can play the blame game and turn correlation into causation all day if we wanted. Here's a case for DiFrancesco doing the same thing.
Metta also had nerve damage and injury while a Laker in our 3-peat year, it was part of the reason why he had such a terrible season the year we were swept by the Mavericks as he started breaking down in the 2nd half of the season and wasn't getting better nor given the proper recovery time and methods despite being barely able to walk up and down the court without pushing himself tremendously.
This happened on Mckenzie's time and recovery methods and it got to the point where Metta in the playoffs couldn't even lift to make a wide open dunk against the Mavs.
Metta admitted to complimenting retirement, and said he was 'saved' by the Lakers staff who fixed his nerve injuries and helped him recover properly(this was during DiFrancesco's first year) and Metta started to come on late in the season and look great before the suspension for elbowing Harden. That was part of the reason Metta was so excited because he felt he was finally back and he thanked the Lakers training staff from saving him from nerve damage that the year prior made him almost unable to dunk a basketball and consider retirement.
If we want to try to make correlation into causation and ignore all other variables like I'm seeing happen here to discredit DiFrancesco then we would have to blame Mckenzie for Metta's nerve problems and improper recovery and thus blame him for why we were swept by the Mavericks as Metta deteriorated all year. And then we would have to thank DiFrancesco and the staff and proper recovery for helping Metta come back the next year to start to return to form which he looked like he'd finally gotten back to, prior to the elbow to Harden.
We can also say that Bynum's healthiest year where he became an all-star was under DiFrancesco and Bynum hasn't played more than 5 games on any other team since leaving.
So if we want to make correlation into causation we could probably discredit and credit the other way around. As there are instances on both sides that could be credited or discredited from one or the other.
Just depends on what situation you decide to focus on and which situations you decide to ignore when making your argument, but Metta's nerve damage recovery as well as Bynum's all-star year were all under DiFrancesco. So it's not like he's done nothing, if we want to go that route of 'all correlation is by causation'.
Um, no.
Metta played all 82 games during 2010-2011 (Mckech). The following year 2011-2012 Metta broke down and missed almost 20 games (DiFran).
Metta playing all 82 games has nothing to do with it, if anything it made it worse.
Metta was dealing with his nerve damage during the second half of the 2010-2011 season, he STILL played, but it was progressing terribly and it finally came to a head against the Mavs that year when we were swept and Metta couldn't even get off the ground for a dunk, the hint should have been taken when the Lakers finished the season 3-5 with 5 straight losses and Metta looking like a shell of himself barely able to get up and down the court, but his minutes stayed at 32 and he never got proper recovery, and it came back to bite them. This was on Mckech's time.
The next year was when DiFrancesco had taken over and he worked on Metta that entire year and Metta started finally turning it around in the second half of the season and was averaging 14 points on 47% shooting the month right before he was suspended despite starting the season scoring 3 points a game on 26% shooting. It was DiFrancesco's year where Metta recovered, it was during Mckech's final year that Metta broke down with nerve damage. It didn't stop him from playing, but there's a reason he finished the season shooting 28% from the field. He pushed what last he had left in the first round, was gone in the water in the second round and it culminated with that fast break dunk miss vs the Mavs in our 4th and final game of that playoff run.
Metta broke down the year before the lockout in 2010-2011. The off-season of the lockout was when Mckech was fired. 2011-2012 was Metta's recovery year where he started slow, and finished the season strong when his career was 'saved'. There's a reason Metta swears by DiFrancesco and his methods and they formed such a close relationship.
So yes, my timeline was correct.
BS is strong in this thread. Quit making stuff up. Now he had nerve damage but still continued to play all 82 games and still avg 30 mins?
There's nothing about Metta ever having nerve damage anywhere during that season. And if he did he would not be able to play all 82 games and average over 30 mins, that would be a miracle if a person with nerve damage could even do it. But again nothing says he had nerve damage like you keep claiming, unless you can provide a link. Fact is, correction 2012 was a lockout season, so he was actually healthy at the end of the 2011 vs the Mavs, and he was healthy 2012 to start the season.
"Metta broke down the year before the lockout in 2010-2011", really??? "Barely able to walk up and down the court in 2011" as you said? Quit the BS. That was 2013.
Metta didn't miss his first game as a Lakers due to an injury until March 2013 (DIFRANCESCO)
We can play the blame game and turn correlation into causation all day if we wanted. Here's a case for DiFrancesco doing the same thing.
Metta also had nerve damage and injury while a Laker in our 3-peat year, it was part of the reason why he had such a terrible season the year we were swept by the Mavericks as he started breaking down in the 2nd half of the season and wasn't getting better nor given the proper recovery time and methods despite being barely able to walk up and down the court without pushing himself tremendously.
This happened on Mckenzie's time and recovery methods and it got to the point where Metta in the playoffs couldn't even lift to make a wide open dunk against the Mavs.
Metta admitted to complimenting retirement, and said he was 'saved' by the Lakers staff who fixed his nerve injuries and helped him recover properly(this was during DiFrancesco's first year) and Metta started to come on late in the season and look great before the suspension for elbowing Harden. That was part of the reason Metta was so excited because he felt he was finally back and he thanked the Lakers training staff from saving him from nerve damage that the year prior made him almost unable to dunk a basketball and consider retirement.
If we want to try to make correlation into causation and ignore all other variables like I'm seeing happen here to discredit DiFrancesco then we would have to blame Mckenzie for Metta's nerve problems and improper recovery and thus blame him for why we were swept by the Mavericks as Metta deteriorated all year. And then we would have to thank DiFrancesco and the staff and proper recovery for helping Metta come back the next year to start to return to form which he looked like he'd finally gotten back to, prior to the elbow to Harden.
We can also say that Bynum's healthiest year where he became an all-star was under DiFrancesco and Bynum hasn't played more than 5 games on any other team since leaving.
So if we want to make correlation into causation we could probably discredit and credit the other way around. As there are instances on both sides that could be credited or discredited from one or the other.
Just depends on what situation you decide to focus on and which situations you decide to ignore when making your argument, but Metta's nerve damage recovery as well as Bynum's all-star year were all under DiFrancesco. So it's not like he's done nothing, if we want to go that route of 'all correlation is by causation'.
Um, no.
Metta played all 82 games during 2010-2011 (Mckech). The following year 2011-2012 Metta broke down and missed almost 20 games (DiFran).
Metta playing all 82 games has nothing to do with it, if anything it made it worse.
Metta was dealing with his nerve damage during the second half of the 2010-2011 season, he STILL played, but it was progressing terribly and it finally came to a head against the Mavs that year when we were swept and Metta couldn't even get off the ground for a dunk, the hint should have been taken when the Lakers finished the season 3-5 with 5 straight losses and Metta looking like a shell of himself barely able to get up and down the court, but his minutes stayed at 32 and he never got proper recovery, and it came back to bite them. This was on Mckech's time.
The next year was when DiFrancesco had taken over and he worked on Metta that entire year and Metta started finally turning it around in the second half of the season and was averaging 14 points on 47% shooting the month right before he was suspended despite starting the season scoring 3 points a game on 26% shooting. It was DiFrancesco's year where Metta recovered, it was during Mckech's final year that Metta broke down with nerve damage. It didn't stop him from playing, but there's a reason he finished the season shooting 28% from the field. He pushed what last he had left in the first round, was gone in the water in the second round and it culminated with that fast break dunk miss vs the Mavs in our 4th and final game of that playoff run.
Metta broke down the year before the lockout in 2010-2011. The off-season of the lockout was when Mckech was fired. 2011-2012 was Metta's recovery year where he started slow, and finished the season strong when his career was 'saved'. There's a reason Metta swears by DiFrancesco and his methods and they formed such a close relationship.
So yes, my timeline was correct.
BS is strong in this thread. Quit making stuff up. Now he had nerve damage but still continued to play all 82 games and still avg 30 mins?
There's nothing about Metta ever having nerve damage anywhere during that season. And if he did he would not be able to play all 82 games and average over 30 mins, that would be a miracle if a person with nerve damage could even do it. But again nothing says he had nerve damage like you keep claiming, unless you can provide a link. Fact is, correction 2012 was a lockout season, so he was actually healthy at the end of the 2011 vs the Mavs, and he was healthy 2012 to start the season.
"Metta broke down the year before the lockout in 2010-2011", really??? "Barely able to walk up and down the court in 2011" as you said? Quit the BS. That was 2013.
Metta didn't miss his first game as a Lakers due to an injury until March 2013 (DIFRANCESCO)
Metta was the only non broken down player the Lakers had.
Problem is you're trying to constantly use "oh but Metta played 30 minutes and he did it with nerve damage?!?!"
yes he did. That's the truth. Metta played with nerve damage that season. You trying to say "But he played 82 games! he didn't miss a game till DiFrancesco's season." Is an irrelevant argument. Like I said, that's not a good thing, if anything it made it worse that he played all 82 games and didn't get a minutes restriction due to nerve damage/
When he started the next season, he was still dealing with the damage he had from the prior season and that entire year was spent trying to get Metta back to form and to get him healthy and repair his nerve damage. This is what Seto, Vitti and DiFrancesco were tasked with.
Here is to end your argument.
This was during the 2011-2012 season
Quote:
He revealed how he battled nerve damage in his lower back last season(aka Mckech's time) that made it difficult to control his feet, almost as if they were in slow motion.
Proper treatment couldn't be had for several months, he said, because of an NBA lockout rule in which players and team personnel could not contact each other.
He laughs at the fact he can dunk again, among other things.
Metta as I said was dealing with nerve damage the season he played 82 games, straight from his mouth and didn't even know if he'd be able to dunk again.
As I said it culminated in him being unable to even finish a dunk against the Mavericks. Metta played 82 games with nerve damage and he did it on Mckech's time and played 32 minutes and never got time to recover which made it worse. Metta's just a crazily driven individual in the same mold as Kobe to be able to play with that kind of pain for all 82 games.
Then in the off-season due to the lockout he couldn't meet with the team doctors to work on it, and he was so bad off he couldn't even work out that summer which is why he came into camp so terribly out of shape, and when he came in that season it was Vitti, Seto and DiFrancesco working on him.
But It was in Mckech's final season that he played with nerve damage and completely fell apart while his minutes weren't restricted(as evidenced above from his own mouth).
So boom right back at ya. My timeline is correct. The argument of "but Metta didn't miss any games till DiFrancesco" is irrelevant and more a credit to Metta's toughness the previous season and in general which is second only to Kobe.
The fact he played 82 games while dealing with nerve damage that caused him to barely be able to move his feet and didn't get his minutes lowered when he could barely make it up and down the court in the latter part of the season so he could never recover fully is not an advantage, it's a disadvantage and it was on Mckech's time.
We can play the blame game and turn correlation into causation all day if we wanted. Here's a case for DiFrancesco doing the same thing.
Metta also had nerve damage and injury while a Laker in our 3-peat year, it was part of the reason why he had such a terrible season the year we were swept by the Mavericks as he started breaking down in the 2nd half of the season and wasn't getting better nor given the proper recovery time and methods despite being barely able to walk up and down the court without pushing himself tremendously.
This happened on Mckenzie's time and recovery methods and it got to the point where Metta in the playoffs couldn't even lift to make a wide open dunk against the Mavs.
Metta admitted to complimenting retirement, and said he was 'saved' by the Lakers staff who fixed his nerve injuries and helped him recover properly(this was during DiFrancesco's first year) and Metta started to come on late in the season and look great before the suspension for elbowing Harden. That was part of the reason Metta was so excited because he felt he was finally back and he thanked the Lakers training staff from saving him from nerve damage that the year prior made him almost unable to dunk a basketball and consider retirement.
If we want to try to make correlation into causation and ignore all other variables like I'm seeing happen here to discredit DiFrancesco then we would have to blame Mckenzie for Metta's nerve problems and improper recovery and thus blame him for why we were swept by the Mavericks as Metta deteriorated all year. And then we would have to thank DiFrancesco and the staff and proper recovery for helping Metta come back the next year to start to return to form which he looked like he'd finally gotten back to, prior to the elbow to Harden.
We can also say that Bynum's healthiest year where he became an all-star was under DiFrancesco and Bynum hasn't played more than 5 games on any other team since leaving.
So if we want to make correlation into causation we could probably discredit and credit the other way around. As there are instances on both sides that could be credited or discredited from one or the other.
Just depends on what situation you decide to focus on and which situations you decide to ignore when making your argument, but Metta's nerve damage recovery as well as Bynum's all-star year were all under DiFrancesco. So it's not like he's done nothing, if we want to go that route of 'all correlation is by causation'.
Um, no.
Metta played all 82 games during 2010-2011 (Mckech). The following year 2011-2012 Metta broke down and missed almost 20 games (DiFran).
Metta playing all 82 games has nothing to do with it, if anything it made it worse.
Metta was dealing with his nerve damage during the second half of the 2010-2011 season, he STILL played, but it was progressing terribly and it finally came to a head against the Mavs that year when we were swept and Metta couldn't even get off the ground for a dunk, the hint should have been taken when the Lakers finished the season 3-5 with 5 straight losses and Metta looking like a shell of himself barely able to get up and down the court, but his minutes stayed at 32 and he never got proper recovery, and it came back to bite them. This was on Mckech's time.
The next year was when DiFrancesco had taken over and he worked on Metta that entire year and Metta started finally turning it around in the second half of the season and was averaging 14 points on 47% shooting the month right before he was suspended despite starting the season scoring 3 points a game on 26% shooting. It was DiFrancesco's year where Metta recovered, it was during Mckech's final year that Metta broke down with nerve damage. It didn't stop him from playing, but there's a reason he finished the season shooting 28% from the field. He pushed what last he had left in the first round, was gone in the water in the second round and it culminated with that fast break dunk miss vs the Mavs in our 4th and final game of that playoff run.
Metta broke down the year before the lockout in 2010-2011. The off-season of the lockout was when Mckech was fired. 2011-2012 was Metta's recovery year where he started slow, and finished the season strong when his career was 'saved'. There's a reason Metta swears by DiFrancesco and his methods and they formed such a close relationship.
So yes, my timeline was correct.
BS is strong in this thread. Quit making stuff up. Now he had nerve damage but still continued to play all 82 games and still avg 30 mins?
There's nothing about Metta ever having nerve damage anywhere during that season. And if he did he would not be able to play all 82 games and average over 30 mins, that would be a miracle if a person with nerve damage could even do it. But again nothing says he had nerve damage like you keep claiming, unless you can provide a link. Fact is, correction 2012 was a lockout season, so he was actually healthy at the end of the 2011 vs the Mavs, and he was healthy 2012 to start the season.
"Metta broke down the year before the lockout in 2010-2011", really??? "Barely able to walk up and down the court in 2011" as you said? Quit the BS. That was 2013.
Metta didn't miss his first game as a Lakers due to an injury until March 2013 (DIFRANCESCO)
Metta was the only non broken down player the Lakers had.
Problem is you're trying to constantly use "oh but Metta played 30 minutes and he did it with nerve damage?!?!"
yes he did. That's the truth. Metta played with nerve damage that season. You trying to say "But he played 82 games! he didn't miss a game till DiFrancesco's season." Is an irrelevant argument. Like I said, that's not a good thing, if anything it made it worse that he played all 82 games and didn't get a minutes restriction due to nerve damage/
When he started the next season, he was still dealing with the damage he had from the prior season and that entire year was spent trying to get Metta back to form and to get him healthy and repair his nerve damage. This is what Seto, Vitti and DiFrancesco were tasked with.
Here is to end your argument.
This was during the 2011-2012 season
Quote:
He revealed how he battled nerve damage in his lower back last season(aka Mckech's time) that made it difficult to control his feet, almost as if they were in slow motion.
Proper treatment couldn't be had for several months, he said, because of an NBA lockout rule in which players and team personnel could not contact each other.
He laughs at the fact he can dunk again, among other things.
Metta as I said was dealing with nerve damage the season he played 82 games, straight from his mouth and didn't even know if he'd be able to dunk again.
As I said it culminated in him being unable to even finish a dunk against the Mavericks. Metta played 82 games with nerve damage and he did it on Mckech's time and played 32 minutes and never got time to recover which made it worse. Metta's just a crazily driven individual in the same mold as Kobe to be able to play with that kind of pain for all 82 games.
Then in the off-season due to the lockout he couldn't meet with the team doctors to work on it, and he was so bad off he couldn't even work out that summer which is why he came into camp so terribly out of shape, and when he came in that season it was Vitti, Seto and DiFrancesco working on him.
But It was in Mckech's final season that he played with nerve damage and completely fell apart while his minutes weren't restricted(as evidenced above from his own mouth).
So boom right back at ya. My timeline is correct. The argument of "but Metta didn't miss any games till DiFrancesco" is irrelevant and more a credit to Metta's toughness the previous season and in general which is second only to Kobe.
The fact he played 82 games while dealing with nerve damage that caused him to barely be able to move his feet and didn't get his minutes lowered when he could barely make it up and down the court in the latter part of the season so he could never recover fully is not an advantage, it's a disadvantage and it was on Mckech's time.
Once more, my timeline was correct.
Counter accepted.
Then answer these ones too.
Your article also says he personally credited Vitti and Judy but you kept inserting DiFran in there as someone Metta said "saved" his career.
Then you put the blame on McKen when MWP admitted he had lower back pain AFTER the season and couldn't get it treated during the lockout. He played through it fine apparently like other players have done with some of their injuries, but you keep putting the blame on McKen for this.
Does this look like a guy who as you put it "barely able to walk up and down the court" during the playoffs vs Dallas?
. _________________
Last edited by Nash Vegas on Fri Oct 31, 2014 4:29 pm; edited 1 time in total
Joined: 21 Feb 2008 Posts: 28431 Location: LA --> Bay Area
Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 4:06 pm Post subject:
^ Vitti and Judy were probably tasked to do Mcken's job by the cheapskate owners. DiFran is just there to be a warm body. Or even worse, all 3 are doing different things for conditioning or doing it by committee.
We can play the blame game and turn correlation into causation all day if we wanted. Here's a case for DiFrancesco doing the same thing.
Metta also had nerve damage and injury while a Laker in our 3-peat year, it was part of the reason why he had such a terrible season the year we were swept by the Mavericks as he started breaking down in the 2nd half of the season and wasn't getting better nor given the proper recovery time and methods despite being barely able to walk up and down the court without pushing himself tremendously.
This happened on Mckenzie's time and recovery methods and it got to the point where Metta in the playoffs couldn't even lift to make a wide open dunk against the Mavs.
Metta admitted to complimenting retirement, and said he was 'saved' by the Lakers staff who fixed his nerve injuries and helped him recover properly(this was during DiFrancesco's first year) and Metta started to come on late in the season and look great before the suspension for elbowing Harden. That was part of the reason Metta was so excited because he felt he was finally back and he thanked the Lakers training staff from saving him from nerve damage that the year prior made him almost unable to dunk a basketball and consider retirement.
If we want to try to make correlation into causation and ignore all other variables like I'm seeing happen here to discredit DiFrancesco then we would have to blame Mckenzie for Metta's nerve problems and improper recovery and thus blame him for why we were swept by the Mavericks as Metta deteriorated all year. And then we would have to thank DiFrancesco and the staff and proper recovery for helping Metta come back the next year to start to return to form which he looked like he'd finally gotten back to, prior to the elbow to Harden.
We can also say that Bynum's healthiest year where he became an all-star was under DiFrancesco and Bynum hasn't played more than 5 games on any other team since leaving.
So if we want to make correlation into causation we could probably discredit and credit the other way around. As there are instances on both sides that could be credited or discredited from one or the other.
Just depends on what situation you decide to focus on and which situations you decide to ignore when making your argument, but Metta's nerve damage recovery as well as Bynum's all-star year were all under DiFrancesco. So it's not like he's done nothing, if we want to go that route of 'all correlation is by causation'.
Um, no.
Metta played all 82 games during 2010-2011 (Mckech). The following year 2011-2012 Metta broke down and missed almost 20 games (DiFran).
Metta playing all 82 games has nothing to do with it, if anything it made it worse.
Metta was dealing with his nerve damage during the second half of the 2010-2011 season, he STILL played, but it was progressing terribly and it finally came to a head against the Mavs that year when we were swept and Metta couldn't even get off the ground for a dunk, the hint should have been taken when the Lakers finished the season 3-5 with 5 straight losses and Metta looking like a shell of himself barely able to get up and down the court, but his minutes stayed at 32 and he never got proper recovery, and it came back to bite them. This was on Mckech's time.
The next year was when DiFrancesco had taken over and he worked on Metta that entire year and Metta started finally turning it around in the second half of the season and was averaging 14 points on 47% shooting the month right before he was suspended despite starting the season scoring 3 points a game on 26% shooting. It was DiFrancesco's year where Metta recovered, it was during Mckech's final year that Metta broke down with nerve damage. It didn't stop him from playing, but there's a reason he finished the season shooting 28% from the field. He pushed what last he had left in the first round, was gone in the water in the second round and it culminated with that fast break dunk miss vs the Mavs in our 4th and final game of that playoff run.
Metta broke down the year before the lockout in 2010-2011. The off-season of the lockout was when Mckech was fired. 2011-2012 was Metta's recovery year where he started slow, and finished the season strong when his career was 'saved'. There's a reason Metta swears by DiFrancesco and his methods and they formed such a close relationship.
So yes, my timeline was correct.
BS is strong in this thread. Quit making stuff up. Now he had nerve damage but still continued to play all 82 games and still avg 30 mins?
There's nothing about Metta ever having nerve damage anywhere during that season. And if he did he would not be able to play all 82 games and average over 30 mins, that would be a miracle if a person with nerve damage could even do it. But again nothing says he had nerve damage like you keep claiming, unless you can provide a link. Fact is, correction 2012 was a lockout season, so he was actually healthy at the end of the 2011 vs the Mavs, and he was healthy 2012 to start the season.
"Metta broke down the year before the lockout in 2010-2011", really??? "Barely able to walk up and down the court in 2011" as you said? Quit the BS. That was 2013.
Metta didn't miss his first game as a Lakers due to an injury until March 2013 (DIFRANCESCO)
Metta was the only non broken down player the Lakers had.
Problem is you're trying to constantly use "oh but Metta played 30 minutes and he did it with nerve damage?!?!"
yes he did. That's the truth. Metta played with nerve damage that season. You trying to say "But he played 82 games! he didn't miss a game till DiFrancesco's season." Is an irrelevant argument. Like I said, that's not a good thing, if anything it made it worse that he played all 82 games and didn't get a minutes restriction due to nerve damage/
When he started the next season, he was still dealing with the damage he had from the prior season and that entire year was spent trying to get Metta back to form and to get him healthy and repair his nerve damage. This is what Seto, Vitti and DiFrancesco were tasked with.
Here is to end your argument.
This was during the 2011-2012 season
Quote:
He revealed how he battled nerve damage in his lower back last season(aka Mckech's time) that made it difficult to control his feet, almost as if they were in slow motion.
Proper treatment couldn't be had for several months, he said, because of an NBA lockout rule in which players and team personnel could not contact each other.
He laughs at the fact he can dunk again, among other things.
Metta as I said was dealing with nerve damage the season he played 82 games, straight from his mouth and didn't even know if he'd be able to dunk again.
As I said it culminated in him being unable to even finish a dunk against the Mavericks. Metta played 82 games with nerve damage and he did it on Mckech's time and played 32 minutes and never got time to recover which made it worse. Metta's just a crazily driven individual in the same mold as Kobe to be able to play with that kind of pain for all 82 games.
Then in the off-season due to the lockout he couldn't meet with the team doctors to work on it, and he was so bad off he couldn't even work out that summer which is why he came into camp so terribly out of shape, and when he came in that season it was Vitti, Seto and DiFrancesco working on him.
But It was in Mckech's final season that he played with nerve damage and completely fell apart while his minutes weren't restricted(as evidenced above from his own mouth).
So boom right back at ya. My timeline is correct. The argument of "but Metta didn't miss any games till DiFrancesco" is irrelevant and more a credit to Metta's toughness the previous season and in general which is second only to Kobe.
The fact he played 82 games while dealing with nerve damage that caused him to barely be able to move his feet and didn't get his minutes lowered when he could barely make it up and down the court in the latter part of the season so he could never recover fully is not an advantage, it's a disadvantage and it was on Mckech's time.
Once more, my timeline was correct.
Counter accepted.
Then answer these ones too.
You put the blame on McKen when MWP admitted he had lower back pain AFTER the season and couldn't get treated. He played through it fine like other players have done with some of their injuries, but you put the blame on McKen for this.
Does this look like a guy who as you put it "barely able to walk up and down the court" during the playoffs vs Dallas?
Your article also says he personally credited Vitti and Judy but you kept inserting DiFran in there.
You tell me
Like I said, it was basically upon Metta's toughness alone that he lasted as long as he did, but the fact he had nerve damage is an unavoidable fact and Metta said he'd dealt with it the season prior. Not at the start of the off-season.. DURING the season. It was never more apparent then when his defense seemed to dissipate for some reason late in the season and he had such a horrible finish to the season when the Lakers went 3-5 and he was shooting 26% from the field.
I already addressed that Metta somehow some way was able to push through in the first round of the playoffs(again, showing his toughness more than anything) but eventually had nothing left against Dallas.
Sometimes you need to get away from the stats and remember those times, there were many games where Metta looked to be moving in heavy water, where he looked like he wasn't the same defender, where he looked finished as a player. This was shocking because he started the season on a positive note 9 points a game on 44% shooting and 41% from the arc, the pinnacle of which was his shut down effort against the San Antonio Spurs where he looked ready, in playoff mode and flexing finest. That was during the Lakers 17-1 run where it looked like we were ready to peak for three-peat. But slowly but surely you could see the change in him. April was the month in which he looked his absolute worst. I went to the Golden State warriors game, a place we never lost, and watched us lose near the end of that year and Metta shoot 14% from the field and look like a shell of himself, he looked done honestly and I knew that we weren't three-peating.
My entire point was basically that some wanted to turn 'all correlation into causation'. So I was showing how easily that could be done if you wanted to defend DiFrancesco's tenure.
There's many other articles where Metta talks about how DiFrancesco blew his mind in terms of nutrition and getting ready and how Seto and Vitti got his body right but I really don't want to go look for those old los angeles times videos and articles.
But my entire point in the grand scheme of it all is that 'all correlation is by causation' is a bad argument to try to use as I could easily blame Mckech for Metta's nerve damage and lack of recovery or the fact that his minutes were never lowered despite deteriorating and then beef up DiFrancesco for being there during Metta's recovery. To do either would really be to ignore several other variables which is why it's not a good argument to make either way as one domino or the other. That was my entire point about 'correlation = causation'.
But for more credit to the situation and stuff that exists (Metta talks DiFrancesco in other articles and DiFrancesco has also complimented how wonderful Metta is to work with and how they both blow each others mind with the nutritional and recovery aspect of things, saying Metta was one of the easiest to work with).
But let me find some stuff about back then during Metta's recovery year and talking about the current year(DiFrancesco's first) after the final one of Phil.
Quote:
It was a gradual improvement for World Peace. He started the season on the bench and even received a DNP-CD early on in the year from new Lakers coach Mike Brown. His season averages coming into Wednesday -- 6.7 points on 38.0 percent shooting from the field, 29.1 percent on 3-pointers and 58.1 percent from the foul line -- are even lower than they were a year ago, but he's showed considerable strides as the season has worn on. In 16 games in the month of January, World Peace averaged 3.6 points on 27.5 percent shooting. In seven games in April, World Peace is averaging 14.3 points on 54.2 percent shooting from the field.
"Now I'm getting in more shape every day," said World Peace. He sticks to a diet free of processed food and also works in extra workouts when possible, working up a full sweat with Lakers strength and conditioning coach Tim DiFrancesco in the Suns' weight room following the Lakers' loss to Phoenix last weekend, for instance.
"I was top-10 once upon a time in this league and I took a quick drop-off," World Peace said. "Like, that's just not normal. Now that I'm taking care of my body, I don't know. I don't know what could happen now. But, I'll just keep working hard and see where it takes me."
World Peace estimated that because of the help of the Lakers training staff, he has more dunks this season than in his past four seasons combined.
"They set me up with a great program and I've been jumping, rebounding and, wow," World Peace said.
Added Brown: "He's extremely engaged. … He's locked in right now."
The Lakers are 8-5 this season when World Peace scores 10 or more points.
"I don't know where I was supposed to be at now in my career, but I'm going to keep working hard and I'm going to see," World Peace said.
He could still be the target of the Lakers' amnesty clause moving forward. The Lakers held off on using it during the preseason and will have it at their disposal this offseason should they want to shed the nearly $15 million owed to World Peace over the next two seasons from the books. But should that occur, retirement will not likely cross World Peace's mind.
Another reason that Metta went through that nerve damage that season was because he didn't know how bad it was, he just thought it was wear and tear on his body after 15 years, here is is reflecting about his final year with Phil as his body was falling apart due to the nerve damage that he didn't know was so serious.
Quote:
After scoring a season-high 26 points on 10-for-15 shooting in Wednesday's 98-84 win over the San Antonio Spurs, World Peace told reporters that he was playing through a lumbar disorder in his lower back last season. The back pain, specifically affecting his L4 and L5 vertebrae, was also limiting the range of motion in his legs and feet, severely limiting his jumping ability.
"I just thought my body was maybe messed up," World Peace said. "I was like, 'Yeah, 15 years is a lot of years. I got two more years on my contract and I could potentially be done.'"
World Peace was having trouble getting lift, even on wide-open layup attempts.
"It controls your foot, the downward motion," World Peace said. "So, if L4 and L5 is not working, or is compressed or inflamed, you might try to jump, but your foot, it's not going to move. It's not going to react."
And in fact, it wasn't Mckenzie that felt like something more could be wrong with Metta, it was Gary Vitti (you know, the guy that Lakers fans call washed up, terrible and never stop discrediting and blaming for all our injuries) and it was Vitti himself that recommended that Metta go to a nerve doctor after that Dallas series because it could be something more dangerous than he thought.
Quote:
World Peace was directed to a nerve doctor by Lakers trainer Gary Vitti after the Lakers were dismissed from the playoffs in embarrassing fashion in a sweep by the Dallas Mavericks in the second round.
So it was Vitti that spotted it, and Vitti that recommended he go get it checked out for potential nerve damage. Something he got no credit for.
DiFrancesco on Metta
Quote:
“He cares about the ‘why,’ DiFrancesco continued. “Metta wants to know why we’re doing each exercise. On multiple occasions, he and I would stay after games lifting into the late hours of the night, and he’s always willing to go the extra mile. He’s very, very easy to work with.”
World Peace came into camp last season noticeably out of shape – just ask coach Mike Brown, or MWP himself – but for a reason. He’d carried some injuries out of the 2010-11 campaign, and with the lockout starting in July, was unable to work with the team’s training staff to address those problems.
Issues with his back and Achilles made it difficult for World Peace to work out as he normally does through the summer and fall, and when the season suddenly started – as a surprise to many players – in December, he wasn’t close to being ready.
“Compared to last year at this time, it’s not even close,” concluded the strength coach. “Metta told me he’s feeling on the court like he felt when he was playing for the Pacers, when he was at the top of his game athletically. It’s because he’s put his time in.
“He decided he needed to stay focused on this track and not take much if any time off. You saw it last year from a production standpoint on the court around the All Star break last year, and he’s at that level now coming in. The last thing he wanted was to come in anywhere near where he was last year, and he’s far, far from that.”
As well as Metta's resurgence in that season after coming back from nerve damage, he also gave DiFrancesco credit for why he entered the 2012 season in the 'best shape ever'.
Quote:
The rebirth of Metta World Peace
This year, World Peace came into Lakers camp nearly 20 pounds lighter than he did last year, and is noticeably slimmer and more cut than he was at any point during the team's 2011-12 campaign.
He's given credit to Tim DiFrancesco, the Lakers' strength and conditioning coach, for guidance with an offseason training regimen. World Peace devised a three-step program (via mind, body and family commitment) to help himself during the break and set an example for others, as he led walks in New York, Nashville and Los Angeles this summer. He's pulled said commitment to healthy living into an example for others via mwpworkout.com with the hope of inspiring fans and others interested in fitness to get in shape.
World Peace told the Los Angeles Times:
"The thinking behind that was just healthy living," he said. "I got with this company, and this training exercise that I've been doing has been really amazing ... a lot of couples out there can do that [walk/exercise] together, just walking together and getting in shape together, and it kind of just changed my perspective on health and getting in shape and just enjoying my career and my craft."
http://losangeles.sbnation.com/los-angeles-lakers/2012/10/13/3494540/los-angeles-lakers-metta-world-peace
it's there. You just gotta look for it. But as I said, he credited DiFrancesco and DiFrancesco had a fantastic amount of credit back to him. But I think the point's been proven by now.
This can't be Jimbo's fault. He's never wrong. _________________ Nick Young would love to shoot Byron in the back, but there's a good chance he misses.
No mention of the Lakers taking advantage of this advancement in injury prevention at a facility that is extremely local (Santa Barbara). I would hope our FO and training staff are working with them but...
Joined: 15 Sep 2012 Posts: 29257 Location: La La Land
Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 1:12 pm Post subject:
Bumping this thread.
Not because I think Alex would solve our problems.
But because I want to know what the Lakers are doing pro-actively to prevent injuries moving forward.
Alex used to be the "athletic performance coordinator" for the Lakers.
Now he's "Director of Sports Science" for the Raptors.
Do either of those positions exist for the Lakers? If so, what are the names of the people working in those positions?
We can talk about draft picks, free agency, and analytics all we want. But if we continue to have injuries like we've had the past few years, I don't see championship contention in our future.
I know injuries happen, but I'm not convinced we're at the cutting edge of maintaining player health. And no, I don't think it's all Gary Vitti's fault. _________________ "Every hurt is a lesson, and every lesson makes you better”
At least with analytics the lakers have come out and said they use it but won't reveal how for competitive advantage purposes. We have even less of a clue of who replaced Alex. Is it DiFransesco?
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. Explains a lot 
