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fiendishoc
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2014 7:07 pm    Post subject:

cheesysapien wrote:
I re-watched part of LAL LAC game and we defended better compared to Mavericks game. Kobe had more energy defending. Aside from that, from tactical stand point, why were we better defensively in that game?


I don't remember- but LAC has had well documented outside shooting issues this season. I would guess that would have been the reason.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 7:50 am    Post subject:

fiendishoc wrote:
cheesysapien wrote:
I re-watched part of LAL LAC game and we defended better compared to Mavericks game. Kobe had more energy defending. Aside from that, from tactical stand point, why were we better defensively in that game?


I don't remember- but LAC has had well documented outside shooting issues this season. I would guess that would have been the reason.


Sorry I meant the SAS game
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 7:05 pm    Post subject:

cheesysapien wrote:
fiendishoc wrote:
cheesysapien wrote:
I re-watched part of LAL LAC game and we defended better compared to Mavericks game. Kobe had more energy defending. Aside from that, from tactical stand point, why were we better defensively in that game?


I don't remember- but LAC has had well documented outside shooting issues this season. I would guess that would have been the reason.


Sorry I meant the SAS game


My impression was that they did come out with energy and made quite a few defensive plays in the beginning, but were still leaving a lot of holes. Eventually, the Spurs tightened up their execution and put them away. I posted about it on page 4.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 9:53 am    Post subject:

This makes me curious about the dynamics of an NBA coaching staff. I know fiend and GT can't be the only ones noticing the fatal flaws in the scheme of our defense. Someone else on our staff or in the org has got to have noticed....makes me wonder if they have the ability to do anything about it
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 10:35 am    Post subject:

Ask Lawrence Frank what happens when you step on an ex-NBA player/now coach's foot to point out coaching flaws. You get "demoted" to the "Russia advanced scout" team.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 10:48 am    Post subject:

So in other words everyone is forced to be a "yes" man
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 10:52 am    Post subject:

22 wrote:
So in other words everyone is forced to be a "yes" man


If you want to continue getting a paycheck.

Assistant Coach: "Yeah Byron, great job...that's awesome defense right there."
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 11:13 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
22 wrote:
So in other words everyone is forced to be a "yes" man


If you want to continue getting a paycheck.

Assistant Coach: "Yeah Byron, great job...that's awesome defense right there."


seriously hope our staff isn't like that. There's no way to correct mistakes in that scenario
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 11:37 am    Post subject:

fiendishoc wrote:
cheesysapien wrote:
fiendishoc wrote:
cheesysapien wrote:
I re-watched part of LAL LAC game and we defended better compared to Mavericks game. Kobe had more energy defending. Aside from that, from tactical stand point, why were we better defensively in that game?


I don't remember- but LAC has had well documented outside shooting issues this season. I would guess that would have been the reason.


Sorry I meant the SAS game


My impression was that they did come out with energy and made quite a few defensive plays in the beginning, but were still leaving a lot of holes. Eventually, the Spurs tightened up their execution and put them away. I posted about it on page 4.


Thanks. Yes, now I remember that you posted about that. I reread the post. I recalled from that post that SAS was not as sharp then. That was probably the main reason
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 6:27 pm    Post subject:

22 wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
22 wrote:
So in other words everyone is forced to be a "yes" man


If you want to continue getting a paycheck.

Assistant Coach: "Yeah Byron, great job...that's awesome defense right there."


seriously hope our staff isn't like that. There's no way to correct mistakes in that scenario


Here are my guesses: Pressey is Byron's guy from CLE and NO. Eyen is another old school defensive guy. Madsen is too green for Byron to listen to him, and probably focuses more on working with the players individually. Mitch and his team probably don't touch the X's and O's and focus more on scouting. The vid coordinator maybe- but Byron is also famous for not spending too much time on video. From what I've read, Byron is famously stubborn to sticking to the things that have worked for him in the distant past, and will not hesitate to use the "I have three rings" trump card to head off any dissenting opinion. So it would probably take Kobe himself to get him to change anything, but from the interviews, it seems that unfortunately Kobe has already bought into this defensive philosophy.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 6:57 pm    Post subject:

Nice article on why the Mavs offense is so good:
http://grantland.com/the-triangle/the-art-of-the-wildly-efficient-dallas-mavericks/
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 7:09 pm    Post subject:

fiendishoc wrote:
22 wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
22 wrote:
So in other words everyone is forced to be a "yes" man


If you want to continue getting a paycheck.

Assistant Coach: "Yeah Byron, great job...that's awesome defense right there."


seriously hope our staff isn't like that. There's no way to correct mistakes in that scenario


Here are my guesses: Pressey is Byron's guy from CLE and NO. Eyen is another old school defensive guy. Madsen is too green for Byron to listen to him, and probably focuses more on working with the players individually. Mitch and his team probably don't touch the X's and O's and focus more on scouting. The vid coordinator maybe- but Byron is also famous for not spending too much time on video. From what I've read, Byron is famously stubborn to sticking to the things that have worked for him in the distant past, and will not hesitate to use the "I have three rings" trump card to head off any dissenting opinion. So it would probably take Kobe himself to get him to change anything, but from the interviews, it seems that unfortunately Kobe has already bought into this defensive philosophy.



Dang. Our only hope is that Madsen learns from their blunders
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 7:57 pm    Post subject:

I may be a bit late on this, but here's a good Mike Trudell interview with Byron Scott, touching on various issues, such as three point shooting:

http://www.nba.com/lakers/video/141125LakersVoicesByron

Some good stuff, including hinting that Clarkson may take Ronnie Price's minutes at PG. The play he described JC running sounds better than what they are running now, but I couldn't make out exactly what it was. (EDIT: I saw it on the play where Davis got the tip in against MEM- just two high pick and rolls set up other the two sides of the floor. It's better because it doesn't automatically default to a long two from a big if the first screenroll doesn't work)

I don't buy a lot of it, however:
- Ryan Kelly was never going to be a huge part of the offense. Also, no NBA teams just come down and "jack up threes"- that's a complete strawman.
- San Antonio hasn't been a post-centric inside-out team for a while.
- Tony Parker gets penetration and gets the ball to open shooters because of the specific sets that they run to counter modern NBA defenses.
- You can't look at the Dallas game and say the defense has gotten much better, no matter how potent an offensive team they are
- The solution to the PNR defense woes is not for the bigs to be MORE aggressive. If they'd only sag back off their own men, they wouldn't give up so much penetration and all those scramble 3s.

Also, when he was talking about Kobe's minutes, Byron mentioned purposely letting him rest on defense so he had energy on offense, which is probably why we have that Kobe 1 man zone. I disagree completely. I'd rather have him play less minutes overall and defend like a normal NBA player, or else it just compromises the entire team defense and they often end up trading 2 points for 3.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 7:13 pm    Post subject:

On that last point on defending the PnR, here's another good article on how being conservative on D has helped the Blazers become the number 4 defense this year:

http://www.vantagesports.com/#story/VHPCIygAACkA25_K/the-pivot-point-nba-week-5-blazers-ultra-conservative-defense-mavs-screening-dominance

The Lakers rank on that % hedge chart is a bit misleading because they started hedging a lot more a few days ago, so they should steadily climb the chart as the season goes on.

Some other interesting but not surprising stats from that site:

Quote:
Little has come easy for the Lakers, who have attempted a league-low 26% of Open+ (open, guarded or pressured) shots.


Quote:
n the young season, Kobe Bryant's .15 Open+ Frequency ranks 361st of 375 qualified players. In other words, he has barely gotten an open look.


Quote:
The Lakers rank worst in Points Allowed per Screen (.215) and Effective Screen Defense Rate (80.1%) over the past 3 years.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 7:39 pm    Post subject:

fiendishoc wrote:
On that last point on defending the PnR, here's another good article on how being conservative on D has helped the Blazers become the number 4 defense this year:

http://www.vantagesports.com/#story/VHPCIygAACkA25_K/the-pivot-point-nba-week-5-blazers-ultra-conservative-defense-mavs-screening-dominance

The Lakers rank on that % hedge chart is a bit misleading because they started hedging a lot more a few days ago, so they should steadily climb the chart as the season goes on.

Some other interesting but not surprising stats from that site:

Quote:
Little has come easy for the Lakers, who have attempted a league-low 26% of Open+ (open, guarded or pressured) shots.


Quote:
n the young season, Kobe Bryant's .15 Open+ Frequency ranks 361st of 375 qualified players. In other words, he has barely gotten an open look.


Quote:
The Lakers rank worst in Points Allowed per Screen (.215) and Effective Screen Defense Rate (80.1%) over the past 3 years.


The first tweet that you posted about the Lakers a league low 26 % open guard or pressured shots. Can you clarify that for me, please?
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 7:54 pm    Post subject:

lukewaltonsdad wrote:
fiendishoc wrote:
On that last point on defending the PnR, here's another good article on how being conservative on D has helped the Blazers become the number 4 defense this year:

http://www.vantagesports.com/#story/VHPCIygAACkA25_K/the-pivot-point-nba-week-5-blazers-ultra-conservative-defense-mavs-screening-dominance

The Lakers rank on that % hedge chart is a bit misleading because they started hedging a lot more a few days ago, so they should steadily climb the chart as the season goes on.

Some other interesting but not surprising stats from that site:

Quote:
Little has come easy for the Lakers, who have attempted a league-low 26% of Open+ (open, guarded or pressured) shots.


Quote:
n the young season, Kobe Bryant's .15 Open+ Frequency ranks 361st of 375 qualified players. In other words, he has barely gotten an open look.


Quote:
The Lakers rank worst in Points Allowed per Screen (.215) and Effective Screen Defense Rate (80.1%) over the past 3 years.


The first tweet that you posted about the Lakers a league low 26 % open guard or pressured shots. Can you clarify that for me, please?


Yeah, Vantage has defined a shot classification called "Open+", which combines three categories of shots:
1) Open - no defenders within 5 feet
2) Pressured - defender within 3 feet but no hand up
3) Guarded - defender within 3-5 feet

In other words, it's all shots that are not contested (defender within 3 feet with hands up). So Lakers are last in the league in the percentage of their shots that are not contested.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 8:04 pm    Post subject:

fiendishoc wrote:
lukewaltonsdad wrote:
fiendishoc wrote:
On that last point on defending the PnR, here's another good article on how being conservative on D has helped the Blazers become the number 4 defense this year:

http://www.vantagesports.com/#story/VHPCIygAACkA25_K/the-pivot-point-nba-week-5-blazers-ultra-conservative-defense-mavs-screening-dominance

The Lakers rank on that % hedge chart is a bit misleading because they started hedging a lot more a few days ago, so they should steadily climb the chart as the season goes on.

Some other interesting but not surprising stats from that site:

Quote:
Little has come easy for the Lakers, who have attempted a league-low 26% of Open+ (open, guarded or pressured) shots.


Quote:
n the young season, Kobe Bryant's .15 Open+ Frequency ranks 361st of 375 qualified players. In other words, he has barely gotten an open look.


Quote:
The Lakers rank worst in Points Allowed per Screen (.215) and Effective Screen Defense Rate (80.1%) over the past 3 years.


The first tweet that you posted about the Lakers a league low 26 % open guard or pressured shots. Can you clarify that for me, please?


Yeah, Vantage has defined a shot classification called "Open+", which combines three categories of shots:
1) Open - no defenders within 5 feet
2) Pressured - defender within 3 feet but no hand up
3) Guarded - defender within 3-5 feet

In other words, it's all shots that are not contested (defender within 3 feet with hands up). So Lakers are last in the league in the percentage of their shots that are not contested.


That's a good stat...that makes it accurate with the eye test. Our offense is a lot of isolation, and within that stagnant system, it doesn't generate a lot of clean looks whatsoever..

Also, I had some question, about Memphis game, if you would be so kind has to share your insights, please.

It doesn't seem to me that are we getting high quality shots through this stagnant offense through ball movement, man movement, curls for our shooters? What happened to the Ed Davis and Jeremy Lin PNR's? Why couldn't Nick get something go to the basket instead of trying to create through one of the best half-court defenses while their defense was setup (Memphis)? How come there was no adjustment when Memphis was collapsing on Kobe all night? Should Kobe recognize that and adjust or the coach?

Just some things I noticed that it didn't seem we adjusted too
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 8:54 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
What happened to the Ed Davis and Jeremy Lin PNR's?


Someone asked Byron that directly during Trudell's Q&A, and his answer was that it was because they haven't been on the floor together that much.

As for the other stuff, the short answer is that I think the playbook just isn't very good. They need plays that keeps the defense guessing which side that they will attack. I also don't see them having anything that leads to screens helping them attack the middle of the paint with shooters spaced out around them. And they have very little movement on the weaks side and the bigs don't roll hard to the basket.

It's very hard to get to the basket when you let the defense load up on you, and when the bigs are all crowded around there. Even on isolations you see the bigs standing there on the strong side.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 9:20 pm    Post subject:

fiendishoc wrote:
Quote:
What happened to the Ed Davis and Jeremy Lin PNR's?


Someone asked Byron that directly during Trudell's Q&A, and his answer was that it was because they haven't been on the floor together that much.

As for the other stuff, the short answer is that I think the playbook just isn't very good. They need plays that keeps the defense guessing which side that they will attack. I also don't see them having anything that leads to screens helping them attack the middle of the paint with shooters spaced out around them. And they have very little movement on the weaks side and the bigs don't roll hard to the basket.

It's very hard to get to the basket when you let the defense load up on you, and when the bigs are all crowded around there. Even on isolations you see the bigs standing there on the strong side.



Thanks for the response. Not only isn't the playbook not very good, but the rotations just downright suck...during the Denver game, he took Lin out after Lin was having a fantastic quarter and did not bring him back in until I want to say the 8 minute mark of the 4th? That completely killed our momentum in a game where getting baskets was hard to come by for both teams...

I noticed you mentioned that in another thread when you were giving the breakdown of the Memphis game. When Lin is hot or whomever, let him play out the quarter. Speaking of Lin, why is he only averaging 30 minutes a game? Kobe is averaging 35...play Lin longer, limit Price's time on the floor, please. No, I don't think that Price will continue that offensive onslaught he had in the Memphis game...

Not to even mention starting Boozer where it puts us at a disadvantage defensively right out of the game...there's just common sense things that I just don't understand why he doesn't do them and/or try something different...
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 9:25 pm    Post subject:

lukewaltonsdad wrote:
fiendishoc wrote:
Quote:
What happened to the Ed Davis and Jeremy Lin PNR's?


Someone asked Byron that directly during Trudell's Q&A, and his answer was that it was because they haven't been on the floor together that much.

As for the other stuff, the short answer is that I think the playbook just isn't very good. They need plays that keeps the defense guessing which side that they will attack. I also don't see them having anything that leads to screens helping them attack the middle of the paint with shooters spaced out around them. And they have very little movement on the weaks side and the bigs don't roll hard to the basket.

It's very hard to get to the basket when you let the defense load up on you, and when the bigs are all crowded around there. Even on isolations you see the bigs standing there on the strong side.



Thanks for the response. Not only isn't the playbook not very good, but the rotations just downright suck...during the Denver game, he took Lin out after Lin was having a fantastic quarter and did not bring him back in until I want to say the 8 minute mark of the 4th? That completely killed our momentum in a game where getting baskets was hard to come by for both teams...

I noticed you mentioned that in another thread when you were giving the breakdown of the Memphis game. When Lin is hot or whomever, let him play out the quarter. Speaking of Lin, why is he only averaging 30 minutes a game? Kobe is averaging 35...play Lin longer, limit Price's time on the floor, please. No, I don't think that Price will continue that offensive onslaught he had in the Memphis game...

Not to even mention starting Boozer where it puts us at a disadvantage defensively right out of the game...there's just common sense things that I just don't understand why he doesn't do them and/or try something different...


His reason was that he thinks the starting unit "needs time to gel", which is why he doesn't want to do any lineup changes for the first 15-20 games. All this stuff is literally predetermined.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 9:36 pm    Post subject:

He doesn't adapt at all. Maybe a couple of high quality assistants can help him out...
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 10:29 pm    Post subject:

Byron is not a good x & O coach. That much is clear
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2014 12:54 pm    Post subject:

fiendishoc wrote:
I may be a bit late on this, but here's a good Mike Trudell interview with Byron Scott, touching on various issues, such as three point shooting:

http://www.nba.com/lakers/video/141125LakersVoicesByron

Some good stuff, including hinting that Clarkson may take Ronnie Price's minutes at PG. The play he described JC running sounds better than what they are running now, but I couldn't make out exactly what it was. (EDIT: I saw it on the play where Davis got the tip in against MEM- just two high pick and rolls set up other the two sides of the floor. It's better because it doesn't automatically default to a long two from a big if the first screenroll doesn't work)

I don't buy a lot of it, however:
- Ryan Kelly was never going to be a huge part of the offense. Also, no NBA teams just come down and "jack up threes"- that's a complete strawman.
- San Antonio hasn't been a post-centric inside-out team for a while.
- Tony Parker gets penetration and gets the ball to open shooters because of the specific sets that they run to counter modern NBA defenses.
- You can't look at the Dallas game and say the defense has gotten much better, no matter how potent an offensive team they are
- The solution to the PNR defense woes is not for the bigs to be MORE aggressive. If they'd only sag back off their own men, they wouldn't give up so much penetration and all those scramble 3s.

Also, when he was talking about Kobe's minutes, Byron mentioned purposely letting him rest on defense so he had energy on offense, which is probably why we have that Kobe 1 man zone. I disagree completely. I'd rather have him play less minutes overall and defend like a normal NBA player, or else it just compromises the entire team defense and they often end up trading 2 points for 3.


I saw that interview earlier and wished that more hard balls were thrown at him, for eg Lin's rotation. I agree with your last point. You should be LAL's assistant coach
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 29, 2014 12:29 pm    Post subject:

I noticed that Lin is often communicating with one of the older Lakers' assistant coaches during free throws and time outs. I think it's Jim Eyen? Is that the defacto offensive coach to this time? Last night I figure Byron should've been in Lin and Boozer's ear on how to cover the Lavine pnr.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 29, 2014 6:04 pm    Post subject:

Lin_Stan wrote:
I noticed that Lin is often communicating with one of the older Lakers' assistant coaches during free throws and time outs. I think it's Jim Eyen? Is that the defacto offensive coach to this time? Last night I figure Byron should've been in Lin and Boozer's ear on how to cover the Lavine pnr.


Eyen is the guy with white hair. His specialty is supposedly defensive game planning.
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