Why is Kobe passing MJ so important?
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angus
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 6:53 pm    Post subject:

Kobe would get more respect aging gracefully in these final years and learning to meld in these years into that more mature team-developer (possible future coach) than over-chucking chase-the-record-1st type of player he could be in danger of seeming to be. He's the best on the team but even superstars are admired for being team-first players. How quickly and soon, or even if, he passes MJ on this one stat will be pretty pale compared to that in light of all Kobe's already done.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 7:54 pm    Post subject:

Man, sometimes i get so frustrated when laker fans shy away from pumping Kobe up. Do you think any Bulls fans in the 90's were going around saying "Well...Jordan's a great player, but he's not quite Magic."

So I'll tell you why it's important:

MJ was a Bull! (i.e. not a Laker) K?

MJ beat the Lakers with Magic in '91!!! Hello??! For those of us that cared, that one really hurt! We HATED MJ for that. Magic retired the following year!

Luckily, we had a Mr. Jerry West who created his magnum opus and got Shaq and Kobe while the league is frightened at the thought of losing their precious MJ and who can possibly replace him?!

Kobe goes on to not only mimic Jordan's abilities, but actually ADD a lot to it. And he becomes a better version of the oh-so-great-one. If you told a real Laker fan in '92 that a Laker would soon come along that would top even MJ, we would have been ecstatic despite our rage and hatred towards the Bulls/Jordan/Pippen/freaking Kukoc/Kerr.

Despite all this, the league/media/fans desperately try to pass the torch to anyone BUT Kobe. Iverson, Carter, Tmac, lebron, Wade, they all come and go.

So cmon everyone, have some Laker pride for pete's sake! Stop carrying the media agenda. the media is primarily east-coast biased, and our own LA Times sells more stuff by criticizing the Lakers and Kobe. Stop agreeing with them. I've been reading these threads the past few months, and so many here just are relishing the kobe bashing. you think we'll ever get another player like this again in our lifetime? Not bloody likely. We've won 16 championships, 10 in my lifetime. If we don't win a championship, does anyone really care about anything else? our record? our coach? So, it looks like we're not going to win. if that's the case, shoot away Kobe. break all the records. Get 100, I don't care how.

What are we saying? We would rather enjoy Wes johnson and Swaggy P share the ball equally and righteously with the other guys and get a nice, balanced (overall losing) performance? Sorry. Gimme Kobe ball. Championship or bust....and bust means let Kobe go crazy.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 8:14 pm    Post subject:

SuperboyReformed wrote:
Man, sometimes i get so frustrated when laker fans shy away from pumping Kobe up. Do you think any Bulls fans in the 90's were going around saying "Well...Jordan's a great player, but he's not quite Magic."

So I'll tell you why it's important:

MJ was a Bull! (i.e. not a Laker) K?

MJ beat the Lakers with Magic in '91!!! Hello??! For those of us that cared, that one really hurt! We HATED MJ for that. Magic retired the following year!

Luckily, we had a Mr. Jerry West who created his magnum opus and got Shaq and Kobe while the league is frightened at the thought of losing their precious MJ and who can possibly replace him?!

Kobe goes on to not only mimic Jordan's abilities, but actually ADD a lot to it. And he becomes a better version of the oh-so-great-one. If you told a real Laker fan in '92 that a Laker would soon come along that would top even MJ, we would have been ecstatic despite our rage and hatred towards the Bulls/Jordan/Pippen/freaking Kukoc/Kerr.

Despite all this, the league/media/fans desperately try to pass the torch to anyone BUT Kobe. Iverson, Carter, Tmac, lebron, Wade, they all come and go.

So cmon everyone, have some Laker pride for pete's sake! Stop carrying the media agenda. the media is primarily east-coast biased, and our own LA Times sells more stuff by criticizing the Lakers and Kobe. Stop agreeing with them. I've been reading these threads the past few months, and so many here just are relishing the kobe bashing. you think we'll ever get another player like this again in our lifetime? Not bloody likely. We've won 16 championships, 10 in my lifetime. If we don't win a championship, does anyone really care about anything else? our record? our coach? So, it looks like we're not going to win. if that's the case, shoot away Kobe. break all the records. Get 100, I don't care how.

What are we saying? We would rather enjoy Wes johnson and Swaggy P share the ball equally and righteously with the other guys and get a nice, balanced (overall losing) performance? Sorry. Gimme Kobe ball. Championship or bust....and bust means let Kobe go crazy.


Lmao. No.
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twisted
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 8:28 pm    Post subject:

SuperboyReformed wrote:
Man, sometimes i get so frustrated when laker fans shy away from pumping Kobe up. Do you think any Bulls fans in the 90's were going around saying "Well...Jordan's a great player, but he's not quite Magic."

So I'll tell you why it's important:

MJ was a Bull! (i.e. not a Laker) K?

MJ beat the Lakers with Magic in '91!!! Hello??! For those of us that cared, that one really hurt! We HATED MJ for that. Magic retired the following year!

Luckily, we had a Mr. Jerry West who created his magnum opus and got Shaq and Kobe while the league is frightened at the thought of losing their precious MJ and who can possibly replace him?!

Kobe goes on to not only mimic Jordan's abilities, but actually ADD a lot to it. And he becomes a better version of the oh-so-great-one. If you told a real Laker fan in '92 that a Laker would soon come along that would top even MJ, we would have been ecstatic despite our rage and hatred towards the Bulls/Jordan/Pippen/freaking Kukoc/Kerr.

Despite all this, the league/media/fans desperately try to pass the torch to anyone BUT Kobe. Iverson, Carter, Tmac, lebron, Wade, they all come and go.

So cmon everyone, have some Laker pride for pete's sake! Stop carrying the media agenda. the media is primarily east-coast biased, and our own LA Times sells more stuff by criticizing the Lakers and Kobe. Stop agreeing with them. I've been reading these threads the past few months, and so many here just are relishing the kobe bashing. you think we'll ever get another player like this again in our lifetime? Not bloody likely. We've won 16 championships, 10 in my lifetime. If we don't win a championship, does anyone really care about anything else? our record? our coach? So, it looks like we're not going to win. if that's the case, shoot away Kobe. break all the records. Get 100, I don't care how.

What are we saying? We would rather enjoy Wes johnson and Swaggy P share the ball equally and righteously with the other guys and get a nice, balanced (overall losing) performance? Sorry. Gimme Kobe ball. Championship or bust....and bust means let Kobe go crazy.


Thank you.

Been a Laker fan before Kobe, and I agree with the bolded whole-heartedly. Incredibly lucky for us to get Magic and Kobe in our lifetime.
We arent winning anything in the near future, so let Kobe be Kobe. Enjoy it while it lasts.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 11:28 pm    Post subject:

He'll be the first NBA player with over 30K points and 6k assists this year. That's a great milestone. The only other guy who will reach that same milestone is LeBron when he reaches 30k points. I don't see guys like Melo or Durant ever reaching 6,000 assists by the time they reach 30k points and at which point they'll be near retirement. I think Durant will likely finishing his career with over 30k points and around 5,000 assists, but i don't think Melo will able to do the same. Melo will likely retire with around 28,000 career points and 4,000+ assists.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 12:26 am    Post subject:

angus wrote:
Kobe would get more respect aging gracefully in these final years and learning to meld in these years into that more mature team-developer (possible future coach) than over-chucking chase-the-record-1st type of player he could be in danger of seeming to be. He's the best on the team but even superstars are admired for being team-first players. How quickly and soon, or even if, he passes MJ on this one stat will be pretty pale compared to that in light of all Kobe's already done.


Which mega superstar aged gracefully? Timmy? Who else? Kobe wouldn't get more respect even if he did. He's doing something unheard of (forget the percentages for a second) and all we're hearing is FG% here, +/- there etc.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 2:21 am    Post subject:

twisted wrote:
SuperboyReformed wrote:
Man, sometimes i get so frustrated when laker fans shy away from pumping Kobe up. Do you think any Bulls fans in the 90's were going around saying "Well...Jordan's a great player, but he's not quite Magic."

So I'll tell you why it's important:

MJ was a Bull! (i.e. not a Laker) K?

MJ beat the Lakers with Magic in '91!!! Hello??! For those of us that cared, that one really hurt! We HATED MJ for that. Magic retired the following year!

Luckily, we had a Mr. Jerry West who created his magnum opus and got Shaq and Kobe while the league is frightened at the thought of losing their precious MJ and who can possibly replace him?!

Kobe goes on to not only mimic Jordan's abilities, but actually ADD a lot to it. And he becomes a better version of the oh-so-great-one. If you told a real Laker fan in '92 that a Laker would soon come along that would top even MJ, we would have been ecstatic despite our rage and hatred towards the Bulls/Jordan/Pippen/freaking Kukoc/Kerr.

Despite all this, the league/media/fans desperately try to pass the torch to anyone BUT Kobe. Iverson, Carter, Tmac, lebron, Wade, they all come and go.

So cmon everyone, have some Laker pride for pete's sake! Stop carrying the media agenda. the media is primarily east-coast biased, and our own LA Times sells more stuff by criticizing the Lakers and Kobe. Stop agreeing with them. I've been reading these threads the past few months, and so many here just are relishing the kobe bashing. you think we'll ever get another player like this again in our lifetime? Not bloody likely. We've won 16 championships, 10 in my lifetime. If we don't win a championship, does anyone really care about anything else? our record? our coach? So, it looks like we're not going to win. if that's the case, shoot away Kobe. break all the records. Get 100, I don't care how.

What are we saying? We would rather enjoy Wes johnson and Swaggy P share the ball equally and righteously with the other guys and get a nice, balanced (overall losing) performance? Sorry. Gimme Kobe ball. Championship or bust....and bust means let Kobe go crazy.


Thank you.

Been a Laker fan before Kobe, and I agree with the bolded whole-heartedly. Incredibly lucky for us to get Magic and Kobe in our lifetime.
We arent winning anything in the near future, so let Kobe be Kobe. Enjoy it while it lasts.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 10:05 pm    Post subject:

Spoolxx wrote:
SuperboyReformed wrote:
Man, sometimes i get so frustrated when laker fans shy away from pumping Kobe up. Do you think any Bulls fans in the 90's were going around saying "Well...Jordan's a great player, but he's not quite Magic."

So I'll tell you why it's important:

MJ was a Bull! (i.e. not a Laker) K?

MJ beat the Lakers with Magic in '91!!! Hello??! For those of us that cared, that one really hurt! We HATED MJ for that. Magic retired the following year!

Luckily, we had a Mr. Jerry West who created his magnum opus and got Shaq and Kobe while the league is frightened at the thought of losing their precious MJ and who can possibly replace him?!

Kobe goes on to not only mimic Jordan's abilities, but actually ADD a lot to it. And he becomes a better version of the oh-so-great-one. If you told a real Laker fan in '92 that a Laker would soon come along that would top even MJ, we would have been ecstatic despite our rage and hatred towards the Bulls/Jordan/Pippen/freaking Kukoc/Kerr.

Despite all this, the league/media/fans desperately try to pass the torch to anyone BUT Kobe. Iverson, Carter, Tmac, lebron, Wade, they all come and go.

So cmon everyone, have some Laker pride for pete's sake! Stop carrying the media agenda. the media is primarily east-coast biased, and our own LA Times sells more stuff by criticizing the Lakers and Kobe. Stop agreeing with them. I've been reading these threads the past few months, and so many here just are relishing the kobe bashing. you think we'll ever get another player like this again in our lifetime? Not bloody likely. We've won 16 championships, 10 in my lifetime. If we don't win a championship, does anyone really care about anything else? our record? our coach? So, it looks like we're not going to win. if that's the case, shoot away Kobe. break all the records. Get 100, I don't care how.

What are we saying? We would rather enjoy Wes johnson and Swaggy P share the ball equally and righteously with the other guys and get a nice, balanced (overall losing) performance? Sorry. Gimme Kobe ball. Championship or bust....and bust means let Kobe go crazy.


Lmao. No.

There it is again.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 10:33 pm    Post subject:

Kobeling wrote:
Spoolxx wrote:
SuperboyReformed wrote:
Man, sometimes i get so frustrated when laker fans shy away from pumping Kobe up. Do you think any Bulls fans in the 90's were going around saying "Well...Jordan's a great player, but he's not quite Magic."

So I'll tell you why it's important:

MJ was a Bull! (i.e. not a Laker) K?

MJ beat the Lakers with Magic in '91!!! Hello??! For those of us that cared, that one really hurt! We HATED MJ for that. Magic retired the following year!

Luckily, we had a Mr. Jerry West who created his magnum opus and got Shaq and Kobe while the league is frightened at the thought of losing their precious MJ and who can possibly replace him?!

Kobe goes on to not only mimic Jordan's abilities, but actually ADD a lot to it. And he becomes a better version of the oh-so-great-one. If you told a real Laker fan in '92 that a Laker would soon come along that would top even MJ, we would have been ecstatic despite our rage and hatred towards the Bulls/Jordan/Pippen/freaking Kukoc/Kerr.

Despite all this, the league/media/fans desperately try to pass the torch to anyone BUT Kobe. Iverson, Carter, Tmac, lebron, Wade, they all come and go.

So cmon everyone, have some Laker pride for pete's sake! Stop carrying the media agenda. the media is primarily east-coast biased, and our own LA Times sells more stuff by criticizing the Lakers and Kobe. Stop agreeing with them. I've been reading these threads the past few months, and so many here just are relishing the kobe bashing. you think we'll ever get another player like this again in our lifetime? Not bloody likely. We've won 16 championships, 10 in my lifetime. If we don't win a championship, does anyone really care about anything else? our record? our coach? So, it looks like we're not going to win. if that's the case, shoot away Kobe. break all the records. Get 100, I don't care how.

What are we saying? We would rather enjoy Wes johnson and Swaggy P share the ball equally and righteously with the other guys and get a nice, balanced (overall losing) performance? Sorry. Gimme Kobe ball. Championship or bust....and bust means let Kobe go crazy.


Lmao. No.

There it is again.

Oh no! What blasphemy!
Even according to MJ, who is normally far too proud to admit ANYONE could be him, says:
If I was in my prime, who would I want to play one on one with? Hmmm....Jerry West, Elgin Baylor, Kobe Bryant (prime), lebron (prime, Wade (prime, melo...
"I don't think I'd lose....other than Kobe Bryant because he steals all my moves."



So I'm not exactly sure what's so ridiculous here. Kobe is a better player than MJ, just like MJ was better than Dr. J, who was better than whoever, etc. it goes on and on. Everyone steals everyone's moves. This generation has FOR SURE stolen Kobe's shooting regiment. So this is neither uncommon nor unusual. Those who just go by hype, well, sure I guess it sounds ridiculous. But it's not ridiculous to MJ, or Kobe, or probably a whole host of knowledgeable NBA guys. Lebron, as usual, hides behind the "well, we'll never know, so it's stupid to discuss" line, since that serves his agenda the best.

Kobe can do everything Jordan does. but he shoots way better. That's a big deal, that's a huge deal. SAS says well MJ attacks better...whatever, I don't agree with that because the floor was more open for that sort of stuff in the 90s. The zone makes attacking the basket far more complicated now. So I even think Kobe's a better attacker also. I'll give MJ the edge for nifty little movements right around the basket because of the hands, but that's really it. And that's not that significant compared to the shooting and etc. The rest of what SAS says is really weak arguments and rhetoric:
"...but he was everything else and then some."
lame argument. What is it specifically? That's the problem, we can say specifically that kobe shoots better than MJ. But what is this everything else? Nobody can say. Because Kobe basically does everything better. The statistical advantage MJ enjoys is a product of the totally different style being played at the time...different rules (very different), and different breed of players. And the whole rings thing, i mean, it's just 5 vs. 6 now, is that really the end all be all?

There is really nothing MJ does better than Kobe. Attacking? I will give him the edge, but oh so very slightly. Kobe's huge advantage in shooting is far more significant. Kobe shoots like a god-damn three point specialist. And he plays midrange like Jordan. It's like having MJ and Ray Allen in the same person. Think about that. Two hall of famers in one guy.

MJ is trying to be funny a little there, but he is not kidding about Kobe beating him. he knows it too. You will not find any quotes of him admitting another player could beat him. Not anywhere.


And let's not forget this nice little quote, a discussion from that weird guy in Curb your Enthusiasm and Bill Simmons. They talk about this:
Weird guy: "Who is the greatest player you've ever seen?"
Wooden: "And he said Kobe Bryant."
Bich Simmons: "Really??!! Over Jordan??!!"
Weird guy: "Over Jordan. He said he had never seen anybody work that hard on offense or defense, or on the complete game."


So there you have it. Wooden and MJ himself.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 10:38 pm    Post subject:

Well, I don't think passing MJ is particularly important, but, I do think maybe the accomplishment feels a little less ... significant given the most recent of those points were scored in losing seasons. (Well, not losing but certainly not winning). When the points you've scored win ball games they feel like they carry more value.

Even if Kobe was on losing teams for the start of his career, then passed the mark whilst on a winner, I think it would feel like more of an achievement than the other way around.

Just my theory on why some might downplay the milestone.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 10:43 pm    Post subject:

NBAFAN24 wrote:
He'll be the first NBA player with over 30K points and 6k assists this year. That's a great milestone. The only other guy who will reach that same milestone is LeBron when he reaches 30k points. I don't see guys like Melo or Durant ever reaching 6,000 assists by the time they reach 30k points and at which point they'll be near retirement. I think Durant will likely finishing his career with over 30k points and around 5,000 assists, but i don't think Melo will able to do the same. Melo will likely retire with around 28,000 career points and 4,000+ assists.

I'm going to add a very important clarification to these numbers. yes, Lebron will most likely get to those numbers. But is he going to leave behind a highlight reel like kobe did for those numbers? Hell to the No. Kobe's highlights are historic. Kobe has highlights...individual plays...that screenwriters wouldn't be able to come up with. Lebron's highlights are almost non existent. He is soooo....very....boring.

Here's one, for example:
There are very very few players who have hit shots to send a game to overtime, plus the shot to win the game. Well, Kobe has more than one of these! That's crazy. And they were nutz, too. lebron has nothing. Nothing!!!

remember in 2010, kobe hit like 6 buzzer beater in a span of a few months. That is sooooo f-ing crazy. Who has done that? Seriously, who?

At the end of each year, I like to go and watch the highlights of the stars on youtube. lebron's is soooooo boring. It's basically a bunch of fast break dunks, with a few kind of average-to-difficult jumpers thrown in the extend the time. Then you go to Kobe's highlights and they are like, what the hell did I just see??
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 10:54 pm    Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:
Well, I don't think passing MJ is particularly important, but, I do think maybe the accomplishment feels a little less ... significant given the most recent of those points were scored in losing seasons. (Well, not losing but certainly not winning). When the points you've scored win ball games they feel like they carry more value.

Even if Kobe was on losing teams for the start of his career, then passed the mark whilst on a winner, I think it would feel like more of an achievement than the other way around.

Just my theory on why some might downplay the milestone.

yeah, I understand that totally. Well, I hope people realize that MJ scored a whole ton of points, probably his most actual prime year points, on losing teams. Different time frames. MJ got a lot of points losing in the beginning, Kobe is getting them at the end. Nobody has won every year, and Kobe has come as close as anyone in history. Only Phil Jackson wins every freaking year. Actually, probably Magic is the closest to winning a ring almost every year of his career (in the modern era).

I'm just trying to offer some reality and perspective here. Kobe, to me, has had individually the best career of anyone I can think of in the NBA. he has almost as many rings as MJ, been to more Finals, is a more skilled player than MJ, has played a far more complicated roles on the team in his career, came up super clutch in a gold medal game that was actually at stake, has made every single marginal player who played with him better (lebron makes them worse), he works harder than anyone, he's had better technology than anyone (videos, treatments, sorry MJ), he's played under a more elite team than MJ (Lakers legacy vs Chicago)...and on top of all this, he has a better highlight reel than anyone I can think of.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 10:59 pm    Post subject:

SuperboyReformed wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
Well, I don't think passing MJ is particularly important, but, I do think maybe the accomplishment feels a little less ... significant given the most recent of those points were scored in losing seasons. (Well, not losing but certainly not winning). When the points you've scored win ball games they feel like they carry more value.

Even if Kobe was on losing teams for the start of his career, then passed the mark whilst on a winner, I think it would feel like more of an achievement than the other way around.

Just my theory on why some might downplay the milestone.

yeah, I understand that totally. Well, I hope people realize that MJ scored a whole ton of points, probably his most actual prime year points, on losing teams. Different time frames. MJ got a lot of points losing in the beginning, Kobe is getting them at the end. Nobody has won every year, and Kobe has come as close as anyone in history. Only Phil Jackson wins every freaking year. Actually, probably Magic is the closest to winning a ring almost every year of his career (in the modern era).

I'm just trying to offer some reality and perspective here. Kobe, to me, has had individually the best career of anyone I can think of in the NBA. he has almost as many rings as MJ, been to more Finals, is a more skilled player than MJ, has played a far more complicated roles on the team in his career, came up super clutch in a gold medal game that was actually at stake, has made every single marginal player who played with him better (lebron makes them worse), he works harder than anyone, he's had better technology than anyone (videos, treatments, sorry MJ), he's played under a more elite team than MJ (Lakers legacy vs Chicago)...and on top of all this, he has a better highlight reel than anyone I can think of.


I think the differenc though is that MJ wasn't chasing anyone per se. He was blazing his own trail.

I don't agree with everything that you said but I do agree with some of it. And despite having the better technology and all of the things you said, it's going to taken 25% more games for Kobe to reach MJ. As amazing as Kobe is, that says a lot about MJ too.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 11:22 pm    Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:
SuperboyReformed wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
Well, I don't think passing MJ is particularly important, but, I do think maybe the accomplishment feels a little less ... significant given the most recent of those points were scored in losing seasons. (Well, not losing but certainly not winning). When the points you've scored win ball games they feel like they carry more value.

Even if Kobe was on losing teams for the start of his career, then passed the mark whilst on a winner, I think it would feel like more of an achievement than the other way around.

Just my theory on why some might downplay the milestone.

yeah, I understand that totally. Well, I hope people realize that MJ scored a whole ton of points, probably his most actual prime year points, on losing teams. Different time frames. MJ got a lot of points losing in the beginning, Kobe is getting them at the end. Nobody has won every year, and Kobe has come as close as anyone in history. Only Phil Jackson wins every freaking year. Actually, probably Magic is the closest to winning a ring almost every year of his career (in the modern era).

I'm just trying to offer some reality and perspective here. Kobe, to me, has had individually the best career of anyone I can think of in the NBA. he has almost as many rings as MJ, been to more Finals, is a more skilled player than MJ, has played a far more complicated roles on the team in his career, came up super clutch in a gold medal game that was actually at stake, has made every single marginal player who played with him better (lebron makes them worse), he works harder than anyone, he's had better technology than anyone (videos, treatments, sorry MJ), he's played under a more elite team than MJ (Lakers legacy vs Chicago)...and on top of all this, he has a better highlight reel than anyone I can think of.


I think the differenc though is that MJ wasn't chasing anyone per se. He was blazing his own trail.

I don't agree with everything that you said but I do agree with some of it. And despite having the better technology and all of the things you said, it's going to taken 25% more games for Kobe to reach MJ. As amazing as Kobe is, that says a lot about MJ too.

I can understand that also. But seeing how different the styles were from the 80s to 90s to 2000s to even now, I have to attribute a lot of that to the eras. I'm not trying to be pedantic, but I wish the stats or numbers we use to convince ourselves of stuff in basketball were used more seriously. First, i always say that a real statistician would NEVER use numbers that we like to commonly throw around to be convinced of ANYTHING. Whether you care or not is a different story.

The 25%...well, Kobe spent a few years as a bench player AND a #2 player (it might even be close to 25% of his games!). Jordan came in blazing as the #1. So that explains that to me.

I will somewhat begrudgingly give this advantage to MJ: for a few years in the 90s, the overall scoring in the NBA dipped enough to make the brass nervous. Which means MJ was scoring more while the league was scoring less. So i guess that's a little bit in his favor.

But numerically, I think it's way too close to really be convinced of anything. Even qualitatively it's pretty close. I just give Kobe the significant advantage in the skillset and overall performances. i really go crazy at rankings where people put MJ at #1, then a bunch of players in between, and Kobe at #9 or something. i think wherever they are overall, they are right next to each other. if MJ is #1, Kobe is #2. If MJ is #5, Kobe is #4. It doesn't make sense to me to put MJ at #1 and be like "clearly!" and then stick Shaq and Duncan somewhere in the middle, and Kobe behind them. That just makes me lol. Duncan...sheesh, great player...far too much credit given to him. He was hardly ever the greatest big man in the league. He was often not even the clearcut main guy on his team. The whole PF position thing is a gimmick (should have been a center, and been exposed for what he is...not as good as Shaq, hakeem, etc., lol). Plus...if I were Karl Malone or Barkley I'd be pissed for all the people saying Duncan's the greatest PF to play the game, when Malone was a real PF, and Barkley who dominated as a undersized one. A big doing that is just a gimmick to me. it's like a heavyweight who loses enough to just make the next lower division, and dominates because of it. Ok, sure, nothing wrong with it, but kind of lame.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 11:41 pm    Post subject:

^ And so the moral of this story is ... passing MJ isn't really all that important for all of those many variables and factors you mentioned. Right?
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2014 1:31 am    Post subject:

SuperboyReformed wrote:
Kobeling wrote:
Spoolxx wrote:
SuperboyReformed wrote:
Man, sometimes i get so frustrated when laker fans shy away from pumping Kobe up. Do you think any Bulls fans in the 90's were going around saying "Well...Jordan's a great player, but he's not quite Magic."

So I'll tell you why it's important:

MJ was a Bull! (i.e. not a Laker) K?

MJ beat the Lakers with Magic in '91!!! Hello??! For those of us that cared, that one really hurt! We HATED MJ for that. Magic retired the following year!

Luckily, we had a Mr. Jerry West who created his magnum opus and got Shaq and Kobe while the league is frightened at the thought of losing their precious MJ and who can possibly replace him?!

Kobe goes on to not only mimic Jordan's abilities, but actually ADD a lot to it. And he becomes a better version of the oh-so-great-one. If you told a real Laker fan in '92 that a Laker would soon come along that would top even MJ, we would have been ecstatic despite our rage and hatred towards the Bulls/Jordan/Pippen/freaking Kukoc/Kerr.

Despite all this, the league/media/fans desperately try to pass the torch to anyone BUT Kobe. Iverson, Carter, Tmac, lebron, Wade, they all come and go.

So cmon everyone, have some Laker pride for pete's sake! Stop carrying the media agenda. the media is primarily east-coast biased, and our own LA Times sells more stuff by criticizing the Lakers and Kobe. Stop agreeing with them. I've been reading these threads the past few months, and so many here just are relishing the kobe bashing. you think we'll ever get another player like this again in our lifetime? Not bloody likely. We've won 16 championships, 10 in my lifetime. If we don't win a championship, does anyone really care about anything else? our record? our coach? So, it looks like we're not going to win. if that's the case, shoot away Kobe. break all the records. Get 100, I don't care how.

What are we saying? We would rather enjoy Wes johnson and Swaggy P share the ball equally and righteously with the other guys and get a nice, balanced (overall losing) performance? Sorry. Gimme Kobe ball. Championship or bust....and bust means let Kobe go crazy.


Lmao. No.

There it is again.

Oh no! What blasphemy!
Even according to MJ, who is normally far too proud to admit ANYONE could be him, says:
If I was in my prime, who would I want to play one on one with? Hmmm....Jerry West, Elgin Baylor, Kobe Bryant (prime), lebron (prime, Wade (prime, melo...
"I don't think I'd lose....other than Kobe Bryant because he steals all my moves."



So I'm not exactly sure what's so ridiculous here. Kobe is a better player than MJ, just like MJ was better than Dr. J, who was better than whoever, etc. it goes on and on. Everyone steals everyone's moves. This generation has FOR SURE stolen Kobe's shooting regiment. So this is neither uncommon nor unusual. Those who just go by hype, well, sure I guess it sounds ridiculous. But it's not ridiculous to MJ, or Kobe, or probably a whole host of knowledgeable NBA guys. Lebron, as usual, hides behind the "well, we'll never know, so it's stupid to discuss" line, since that serves his agenda the best.

Kobe can do everything Jordan does. but he shoots way better. That's a big deal, that's a huge deal. SAS says well MJ attacks better...whatever, I don't agree with that because the floor was more open for that sort of stuff in the 90s. The zone makes attacking the basket far more complicated now. So I even think Kobe's a better attacker also. I'll give MJ the edge for nifty little movements right around the basket because of the hands, but that's really it. And that's not that significant compared to the shooting and etc. The rest of what SAS says is really weak arguments and rhetoric:
"...but he was everything else and then some."
lame argument. What is it specifically? That's the problem, we can say specifically that kobe shoots better than MJ. But what is this everything else? Nobody can say. Because Kobe basically does everything better. The statistical advantage MJ enjoys is a product of the totally different style being played at the time...different rules (very different), and different breed of players. And the whole rings thing, i mean, it's just 5 vs. 6 now, is that really the end all be all?

There is really nothing MJ does better than Kobe. Attacking? I will give him the edge, but oh so very slightly. Kobe's huge advantage in shooting is far more significant. Kobe shoots like a god-damn three point specialist. And he plays midrange like Jordan. It's like having MJ and Ray Allen in the same person. Think about that. Two hall of famers in one guy.

MJ is trying to be funny a little there, but he is not kidding about Kobe beating him. he knows it too. You will not find any quotes of him admitting another player could beat him. Not anywhere.


And let's not forget this nice little quote, a discussion from that weird guy in Curb your Enthusiasm and Bill Simmons. They talk about this:
Weird guy: "Who is the greatest player you've ever seen?"
Wooden: "And he said Kobe Bryant."
Bich Simmons: "Really??!! Over Jordan??!!"
Weird guy: "Over Jordan. He said he had never seen anybody work that hard on offense or defense, or on the complete game."


So there you have it. Wooden and MJ himself.


LMAO. Dude please stop.

Since when does a career 33.4% from 3 make you a specialist? Below average dude. Don't get me started with the rest of the trash you posted.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2014 10:20 am    Post subject:

SuperboyReformed wrote:
NBAFAN24 wrote:
He'll be the first NBA player with over 30K points and 6k assists this year. That's a great milestone. The only other guy who will reach that same milestone is LeBron when he reaches 30k points. I don't see guys like Melo or Durant ever reaching 6,000 assists by the time they reach 30k points and at which point they'll be near retirement. I think Durant will likely finishing his career with over 30k points and around 5,000 assists, but i don't think Melo will able to do the same. Melo will likely retire with around 28,000 career points and 4,000+ assists.

I'm going to add a very important clarification to these numbers. yes, Lebron will most likely get to those numbers. But is he going to leave behind a highlight reel like kobe did for those numbers? Hell to the No. Kobe's highlights are historic. Kobe has highlights...individual plays...that screenwriters wouldn't be able to come up with. Lebron's highlights are almost non existent. He is soooo....very....boring.

Here's one, for example:
There are very very few players who have hit shots to send a game to overtime, plus the shot to win the game. Well, Kobe has more than one of these! That's crazy. And they were nutz, too. lebron has nothing. Nothing!!!

remember in 2010, kobe hit like 6 buzzer beater in a span of a few months. That is sooooo f-ing crazy. Who has done that? Seriously, who?

At the end of each year, I like to go and watch the highlights of the stars on youtube. lebron's is soooooo boring. It's basically a bunch of fast break dunks, with a few kind of average-to-difficult jumpers thrown in the extend the time. Then you go to Kobe's highlights and they are like, what the hell did I just see??

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2014 10:21 am    Post subject:

Spoolxx wrote:
SuperboyReformed wrote:
Kobeling wrote:
Spoolxx wrote:
SuperboyReformed wrote:
Man, sometimes i get so frustrated when laker fans shy away from pumping Kobe up. Do you think any Bulls fans in the 90's were going around saying "Well...Jordan's a great player, but he's not quite Magic."

So I'll tell you why it's important:

MJ was a Bull! (i.e. not a Laker) K?

MJ beat the Lakers with Magic in '91!!! Hello??! For those of us that cared, that one really hurt! We HATED MJ for that. Magic retired the following year!

Luckily, we had a Mr. Jerry West who created his magnum opus and got Shaq and Kobe while the league is frightened at the thought of losing their precious MJ and who can possibly replace him?!

Kobe goes on to not only mimic Jordan's abilities, but actually ADD a lot to it. And he becomes a better version of the oh-so-great-one. If you told a real Laker fan in '92 that a Laker would soon come along that would top even MJ, we would have been ecstatic despite our rage and hatred towards the Bulls/Jordan/Pippen/freaking Kukoc/Kerr.

Despite all this, the league/media/fans desperately try to pass the torch to anyone BUT Kobe. Iverson, Carter, Tmac, lebron, Wade, they all come and go.

So cmon everyone, have some Laker pride for pete's sake! Stop carrying the media agenda. the media is primarily east-coast biased, and our own LA Times sells more stuff by criticizing the Lakers and Kobe. Stop agreeing with them. I've been reading these threads the past few months, and so many here just are relishing the kobe bashing. you think we'll ever get another player like this again in our lifetime? Not bloody likely. We've won 16 championships, 10 in my lifetime. If we don't win a championship, does anyone really care about anything else? our record? our coach? So, it looks like we're not going to win. if that's the case, shoot away Kobe. break all the records. Get 100, I don't care how.

What are we saying? We would rather enjoy Wes johnson and Swaggy P share the ball equally and righteously with the other guys and get a nice, balanced (overall losing) performance? Sorry. Gimme Kobe ball. Championship or bust....and bust means let Kobe go crazy.


Lmao. No.

There it is again.

Oh no! What blasphemy!
Even according to MJ, who is normally far too proud to admit ANYONE could be him, says:
If I was in my prime, who would I want to play one on one with? Hmmm....Jerry West, Elgin Baylor, Kobe Bryant (prime), lebron (prime, Wade (prime, melo...
"I don't think I'd lose....other than Kobe Bryant because he steals all my moves."



So I'm not exactly sure what's so ridiculous here. Kobe is a better player than MJ, just like MJ was better than Dr. J, who was better than whoever, etc. it goes on and on. Everyone steals everyone's moves. This generation has FOR SURE stolen Kobe's shooting regiment. So this is neither uncommon nor unusual. Those who just go by hype, well, sure I guess it sounds ridiculous. But it's not ridiculous to MJ, or Kobe, or probably a whole host of knowledgeable NBA guys. Lebron, as usual, hides behind the "well, we'll never know, so it's stupid to discuss" line, since that serves his agenda the best.

Kobe can do everything Jordan does. but he shoots way better. That's a big deal, that's a huge deal. SAS says well MJ attacks better...whatever, I don't agree with that because the floor was more open for that sort of stuff in the 90s. The zone makes attacking the basket far more complicated now. So I even think Kobe's a better attacker also. I'll give MJ the edge for nifty little movements right around the basket because of the hands, but that's really it. And that's not that significant compared to the shooting and etc. The rest of what SAS says is really weak arguments and rhetoric:
"...but he was everything else and then some."
lame argument. What is it specifically? That's the problem, we can say specifically that kobe shoots better than MJ. But what is this everything else? Nobody can say. Because Kobe basically does everything better. The statistical advantage MJ enjoys is a product of the totally different style being played at the time...different rules (very different), and different breed of players. And the whole rings thing, i mean, it's just 5 vs. 6 now, is that really the end all be all?

There is really nothing MJ does better than Kobe. Attacking? I will give him the edge, but oh so very slightly. Kobe's huge advantage in shooting is far more significant. Kobe shoots like a god-damn three point specialist. And he plays midrange like Jordan. It's like having MJ and Ray Allen in the same person. Think about that. Two hall of famers in one guy.

MJ is trying to be funny a little there, but he is not kidding about Kobe beating him. he knows it too. You will not find any quotes of him admitting another player could beat him. Not anywhere.


And let's not forget this nice little quote, a discussion from that weird guy in Curb your Enthusiasm and Bill Simmons. They talk about this:
Weird guy: "Who is the greatest player you've ever seen?"
Wooden: "And he said Kobe Bryant."
Bich Simmons: "Really??!! Over Jordan??!!"
Weird guy: "Over Jordan. He said he had never seen anybody work that hard on offense or defense, or on the complete game."


So there you have it. Wooden and MJ himself.


LMAO. Dude please stop.

Since when does a career 33.4% from 3 make you a specialist? Below average dude. Don't get me started with the rest of the trash you posted.



Because you'll post something that might hurt his feelings?
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2014 10:27 am    Post subject:

Kobe passing MJ in all time scoring is ... not much important, just nice to see for us Lakers fan
Kobe passing MJ with ring 6 AND 7 put him in conversation of GOAT
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2014 11:10 am    Post subject:

I feel some of you guys BUT the GOAT discussion is probably discussed
on each teams treads; fans are fans. However, this will never be resolved on any particular teams' thread, there are people that if we like it or not, have the loader voice on this.

I've not heard any of those folks suggest Kobe is or will be recognized as the GOAT...MJ is the man though KAJ has been in discussions...

it is what it is...
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2014 11:20 am    Post subject:

twisted wrote:
SuperboyReformed wrote:
Man, sometimes i get so frustrated when laker fans shy away from pumping Kobe up. Do you think any Bulls fans in the 90's were going around saying "Well...Jordan's a great player, but he's not quite Magic."

So I'll tell you why it's important:

MJ was a Bull! (i.e. not a Laker) K?

MJ beat the Lakers with Magic in '91!!! Hello??! For those of us that cared, that one really hurt! We HATED MJ for that. Magic retired the following year!

Luckily, we had a Mr. Jerry West who created his magnum opus and got Shaq and Kobe while the league is frightened at the thought of losing their precious MJ and who can possibly replace him?!

Kobe goes on to not only mimic Jordan's abilities, but actually ADD a lot to it. And he becomes a better version of the oh-so-great-one. If you told a real Laker fan in '92 that a Laker would soon come along that would top even MJ, we would have been ecstatic despite our rage and hatred towards the Bulls/Jordan/Pippen/freaking Kukoc/Kerr.

Despite all this, the league/media/fans desperately try to pass the torch to anyone BUT Kobe. Iverson, Carter, Tmac, lebron, Wade, they all come and go.

So cmon everyone, have some Laker pride for pete's sake! Stop carrying the media agenda. the media is primarily east-coast biased, and our own LA Times sells more stuff by criticizing the Lakers and Kobe. Stop agreeing with them. I've been reading these threads the past few months, and so many here just are relishing the kobe bashing. you think we'll ever get another player like this again in our lifetime? Not bloody likely. We've won 16 championships, 10 in my lifetime. If we don't win a championship, does anyone really care about anything else? our record? our coach? So, it looks like we're not going to win. if that's the case, shoot away Kobe. break all the records. Get 100, I don't care how.

What are we saying? We would rather enjoy Wes johnson and Swaggy P share the ball equally and righteously with the other guys and get a nice, balanced (overall losing) performance? Sorry. Gimme Kobe ball. Championship or bust....and bust means let Kobe go crazy.


Thank you.

Been a Laker fan before Kobe, and I agree with the bolded whole-heartedly. Incredibly lucky for us to get Magic and Kobe in our lifetime.
We arent winning anything in the near future, so let Kobe be Kobe. Enjoy it while it lasts.


I disagree, there will be another. There always is.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2014 11:27 am    Post subject:

SuperboyReformed wrote:
NBAFAN24 wrote:
He'll be the first NBA player with over 30K points and 6k assists this year. That's a great milestone. The only other guy who will reach that same milestone is LeBron when he reaches 30k points. I don't see guys like Melo or Durant ever reaching 6,000 assists by the time they reach 30k points and at which point they'll be near retirement. I think Durant will likely finishing his career with over 30k points and around 5,000 assists, but i don't think Melo will able to do the same. Melo will likely retire with around 28,000 career points and 4,000+ assists.

I'm going to add a very important clarification to these numbers. yes, Lebron will most likely get to those numbers. But is he going to leave behind a highlight reel like kobe did for those numbers? Hell to the No. Kobe's highlights are historic. Kobe has highlights...individual plays...that screenwriters wouldn't be able to come up with. Lebron's highlights are almost non existent. He is soooo....very....boring.

Here's one, for example:
There are very very few players who have hit shots to send a game to overtime, plus the shot to win the game. Well, Kobe has more than one of these! That's crazy. And they were nutz, too. lebron has nothing. Nothing!!!

remember in 2010, kobe hit like 6 buzzer beater in a span of a few months. That is sooooo f-ing crazy. Who has done that? Seriously, who?

At the end of each year, I like to go and watch the highlights of the stars on youtube. lebron's is soooooo boring. It's basically a bunch of fast break dunks, with a few kind of average-to-difficult jumpers thrown in the extend the time. Then you go to Kobe's highlights and they are like, what the hell did I just see??


Disagree, Lebron will leave an impressive highlight reel of his own, all players who are discussed as being top 10 all time do. It is just that your bias won't let you admit that.
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Last edited by venturalakersfan on Fri Nov 28, 2014 1:06 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2014 11:29 am    Post subject:

governator wrote:
Kobe passing MJ in all time scoring is ... not much important, just nice to see for us Lakers fan
Kobe passing MJ with ring 6 AND 7 put him in conversation of GOAT


He is already in that conversation.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2014 11:37 am    Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:
^ And so the moral of this story is ... passing MJ isn't really all that important for all of those many variables and factors you mentioned. Right?


It depends on who we are talking about. I think it is important for Kobe, not so much for me.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2014 12:14 pm    Post subject:

twisted wrote:
SuperboyReformed wrote:
Man, sometimes i get so frustrated when laker fans shy away from pumping Kobe up. Do you think any Bulls fans in the 90's were going around saying "Well...Jordan's a great player, but he's not quite Magic."

So I'll tell you why it's important:

MJ was a Bull! (i.e. not a Laker) K?

MJ beat the Lakers with Magic in '91!!! Hello??! For those of us that cared, that one really hurt! We HATED MJ for that. Magic retired the following year!

Luckily, we had a Mr. Jerry West who created his magnum opus and got Shaq and Kobe while the league is frightened at the thought of losing their precious MJ and who can possibly replace him?!

Kobe goes on to not only mimic Jordan's abilities, but actually ADD a lot to it. And he becomes a better version of the oh-so-great-one. If you told a real Laker fan in '92 that a Laker would soon come along that would top even MJ, we would have been ecstatic despite our rage and hatred towards the Bulls/Jordan/Pippen/freaking Kukoc/Kerr.

Despite all this, the league/media/fans desperately try to pass the torch to anyone BUT Kobe. Iverson, Carter, Tmac, lebron, Wade, they all come and go.

So cmon everyone, have some Laker pride for pete's sake! Stop carrying the media agenda. the media is primarily east-coast biased, and our own LA Times sells more stuff by criticizing the Lakers and Kobe. Stop agreeing with them. I've been reading these threads the past few months, and so many here just are relishing the kobe bashing. you think we'll ever get another player like this again in our lifetime? Not bloody likely. We've won 16 championships, 10 in my lifetime. If we don't win a championship, does anyone really care about anything else? our record? our coach? So, it looks like we're not going to win. if that's the case, shoot away Kobe. break all the records. Get 100, I don't care how.

What are we saying? We would rather enjoy Wes johnson and Swaggy P share the ball equally and righteously with the other guys and get a nice, balanced (overall losing) performance? Sorry. Gimme Kobe ball. Championship or bust....and bust means let Kobe go crazy.


Thank you.

Been a Laker fan before Kobe, and I agree with the bolded whole-heartedly. Incredibly lucky for us to get Magic and Kobe in our lifetime.
We arent winning anything in the near future, so let Kobe be Kobe. Enjoy it while it lasts.


To me, this isn't Kobe being Kobe. Its Kobe being the guy on the other team that we used to criticize for scoring a lot of meaningless points on a losing team while Kobe scored a little less but did it for a winner.
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