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autoprt
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 Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 8:40 pm Post subject: |
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glad we're winning and it does appear that kobe passing the ball is leading to wins which was the problem in the 1st place he was shooting too much and others were watching, then when they got the ball they were cold. scott didn't like lin going insanity mode i'm guessing in his mind it was taking from his d so he got benched. at this point lin is just hanging on going for the ride lets see how this plays out if team wins, he'ls ok. funny thing lin has 3 TO's and he called a turnover machine, Kobe gets a double double based on TO's and he's a facilitator. i kind of feel bad for lin but he's getting paid for now.
as for team i'm loving swaggy and hopefully we can get kelly on track by jan we can really use his shooting but i think he may be done (period). |
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Lakerfan 4 Life
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Joined: 16 Apr 2001
Posts: 16126
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| Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 8:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Ed hasn't gotten any block shots lately since inserted at the PF spot. Lakers need to sign Earl and have Ed play at his natural position. |
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autoprt
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| Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 8:43 pm Post subject: |
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the new improved wes johnson is starting to live up to his name, can he keep it up? also from what i'm noticing teams really playing lakers extremely tough because they don't want to be the team to lose against lakers due to their current records. most teams are playing the lakers expecting the W and play lights out to make sure it happens.
Last edited by autoprt on Tue Dec 02, 2014 8:45 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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mhan00
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Joined: 13 Apr 2001
Posts: 32067
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| Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 8:45 pm Post subject: |
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| autoprt wrote: | | the new improved wes johnson is starting to live up to his name, can he keep it up? |
No idea, but I hope so. That and one dunk he got shot faking and then driving was the best move I've ever seen him make. It was basic, but better than his normal deal of just hanging out. He's definitely been more active on defense too. |
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AVoiceInTheCrowd
Sixth Man
Joined: 30 Jul 2014
Posts: 74
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| Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 8:48 pm Post subject: |
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| autoprt wrote: | glad we're winning and it does appear that kobe passing the ball is leading to wins which was the problem in the 1st place he was shooting too much and others were watching, then when they got the ball they were cold. scott didn't like lin going insanity mode i'm guessing in his mind it was taking from his d so he got benched. at this point lin is just hanging on going for the ride lets see how this plays out if team wins, he'ls ok. funny thing lin has 3 TO's and he called a turnover machine, Kobe gets a double double based on TO's and he's a facilitator. i kind of feel bad for lin but he's getting paid for now.
as for team i'm loving swaggy and hopefully we can get kelly on track by jan we can really use his shooting but i think he may be done (period). |
Winning changes how people view things. If we had lost, Kobe would have gotten a lot of heat for those 10 TO's. |
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bws94
Star Player
Joined: 28 Oct 2014
Posts: 1563
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| Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 8:49 pm Post subject: |
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| mhan00 wrote: | | autoprt wrote: | | the new improved wes johnson is starting to live up to his name, can he keep it up? |
No idea, but I hope so. That and one dunk he got shot faking and then driving was the best move I've ever seen him make. It was basic, but better than his normal deal of just hanging out. He's definitely been more active on defense too. |
honestly, offensively Wes is playing better off of Lin's energy. That was a quick pass from Lin and then Wes saw the opening. The thunderous dunks were from Lin lobs. Wes's 3 was falling tonight and Kobe got the ball to him where he didn't hesitate to knock them down. Wes is playing pretty well now and that is really good to see. |
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autoprt
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| Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 8:52 pm Post subject: |
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i heard kupchak and the team tank committee have a conference call with b.s. tomorrow at 1:30 eastern to find out what to do about kobe passing so much and getting the others active leading to wins.
they are going to discuss incentives to get back to the me 1st mindset such as scoring 100+ in a game, passing kareem this season as all time leading scoring, etc. |
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Avada
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| Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 9:03 pm Post subject: |
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| AVoiceInTheCrowd wrote: | | Avada wrote: | | greenfrog wrote: |
It means exactly what i've said twenty times...it has nothing to with passing. If you never attempt a pass it will be never be reflected in that stat and you can dishonestly argue that [blank] player is a great ballhander, etc, etc |
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You're exactly right. It does have nothing to do with passing. You're still trying to make it more complicated than it needs to be. if you never make a pass it won't be reflected in your turnover rate...because it's literally just a measure of how often you turn it over. Nobody is saying that it's a perfect stat, nobody is saying you can blindly look at turnover rate if you're comparing different type of players. For example, a ball-dominant PG is always going to have a much higher turnover rate than a spot-up shooter. Nobody is going to try to argue that Melo is a better ball-handler than Curry because his turnover rate is lower. You're continuing to over complicate things. Nobody is saying you have to ignore context.
None of this changes the fact that Bryant has a turnover rate of 11% for his career while consistently being one of the best non-PG play-makers/creators in the league, consistently doing a ton of the ball-handling, and consistently posting huge usage rate, which means that calling him a "high turnover player'' is absurd. That is just a fact. |
TO rate isn't a good indicator of whether your a "high turnover player" or not.
Rondo has one of the worst TO rates at 14.2%. No one thinks he is a turnover machine at 10.5 assist vs 3.2 to's.
I don't have a strong opinion on Kobe either way. I just don't think tov is a useful stat in and of itself. |
Um, Rondo has a turnover rate of 24% this season: http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/rondora01.html
That's well above the league-average of 13%. So yeah, he is a high turnover player. Nobody is going to complain because he's a great passer who is averaging 11+ APG and has AST% rate of 45%, and is dominating the ball, which is why nobody considers him a turnover machine. Obviously, you can't just blindly look at the turnover rate without considering role and style. TOV% is perfectly useful as long as you're willing to consider context and don't take for more than it is. |
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autoprt
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| Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 9:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Avada wrote: | | AVoiceInTheCrowd wrote: | | Avada wrote: | | greenfrog wrote: |
It means exactly what i've said twenty times...it has nothing to with passing. If you never attempt a pass it will be never be reflected in that stat and you can dishonestly argue that [blank] player is a great ballhander, etc, etc |
..
You're exactly right. It does have nothing to do with passing. You're still trying to make it more complicated than it needs to be. if you never make a pass it won't be reflected in your turnover rate...because it's literally just a measure of how often you turn it over. Nobody is saying that it's a perfect stat, nobody is saying you can blindly look at turnover rate if you're comparing different type of players. For example, a ball-dominant PG is always going to have a much higher turnover rate than a spot-up shooter. Nobody is going to try to argue that Melo is a better ball-handler than Curry because his turnover rate is lower. You're continuing to over complicate things. Nobody is saying you have to ignore context.
None of this changes the fact that Bryant has a turnover rate of 11% for his career while consistently being one of the best non-PG play-makers/creators in the league, consistently doing a ton of the ball-handling, and consistently posting huge usage rate, which means that calling him a "high turnover player'' is absurd. That is just a fact. |
TO rate isn't a good indicator of whether your a "high turnover player" or not.
Rondo has one of the worst TO rates at 14.2%. No one thinks he is a turnover machine at 10.5 assist vs 3.2 to's.
I don't have a strong opinion on Kobe either way. I just don't think tov is a useful stat in and of itself. |
Um, Rondo has a turnover rate of 24% this season: http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/rondora01.html
That's well above the league-average of 13%. So yeah, he is a high turnover player. Nobody is going to complain because he's a great passer who is averaging 11+ APG and has AST% rate of 45%, and is dominating the ball, which is why nobody considers him a turnover machine. Obviously, you can't just blindly look at the turnover rate without considering role and style. TOV% is perfectly useful as long as you're willing to consider context and don't take for more than it is. |
i think there is a difference in turnover because of trying to make a tough pass is different than the fact your handles aren't that good to start when and it shows when you get defense tighter especially in the playoffs that is when TO's really matter and you are called a turnover machine. |
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trunkz08
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Joined: 12 Nov 2014
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| Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 9:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Kobes played the right way the last 2 games. Unfortunately I just don't think he can keep it up at this rate. BS is playing him so many minutes, and knowing Kobe and his intensity, it's only a matter of time before he gets injured. BS needs to monitor his minutes. He's going to run Kobe into the ground. The guy is 36!! |
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cheesysapien
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| Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 9:13 pm Post subject: |
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| anpherknee wrote: |
... Lakers should not have lost the Minny game, the loss was due to bad execution down the stretch.
But both the pistons and timberwolves are horrible  We built a comfortable lead by playing through kobe tonight, if something is working, you do it over and over until the defense stops you, they didn't so we kept going through kobe. Lin had a hand in this as well because he kept dumping it to kobe because he recognized it was working. Im sure that he had no problem with the plan tonight because kobe was such a willing passer. Im willing to bet that Lin is more satisfied with the result of this game than the timberwolves game, even if it means his numbers werent as good. He was still involved in the offense, hitting open shots created by the attention on kobe, and capitalized on the weakside pnr to create opportunities for others, all within the flow of the game today. It was a solid team win |
That was Byron's message to Lin
_________________
"We have a lot of guys that have been kinda discarded ... Myself with the injury and the age. Jeremy ... a bunch of players who other teams really felt they had no use for. So we have that kind of attitude built into ourselves" -- Kobe Bryant |
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bws94
Star Player
Joined: 28 Oct 2014
Posts: 1563
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| Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 9:17 pm Post subject: |
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| trunkz08 wrote: | | Kobes played the right way the last 2 games. Unfortunately I just don't think he can keep it up at this rate. BS is playing him so many minutes, and knowing Kobe and his intensity, it's only a matter of time before he gets injured. BS needs to monitor his minutes. He's going to run Kobe into the ground. The guy is 36!! |
That's what I'm thinking. Byron is scaring me with the amount of minutes he's playing Kobe. |
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Phillycheese
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| Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 9:19 pm Post subject: |
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| anpherknee wrote: | | bws94 wrote: | | anpherknee wrote: | | bws94 wrote: | | lakerpr wrote: | | greenfrog wrote: | | fadeaway3 wrote: | | I think Kobe is sending Lin a message here. Either man up and do your job or I'm going to do it for you. Kobe doesn't give a fack about the 10 turnovers, he'll fart in your face and say you're welcome. Lin needs a bit of that toughness. |
Was Lin doing a bad job facilitating? |
Lin had 18pts/11 assists two games ago with much less TO (don't remember but much lower than 10). So I am not sure how/why this happened. Maybe the only way to make Kobe shoot less/get others involved is to let him set the play. |
That's what is bothering me. Lin was playing well for a few games with Minnesota being a really good game for him. Now he's back to taking too few shots and too little involvement in the game. If something happens with Kobe, Lin needs to be able to get the guys going and he should be that guy making much bigger contributions to the team than he has anyway and with Kobe. He was moving in a very positive direction, the last 2 games he is reverting and I hope Byron doesn't prefer how he played the last 2 games vs. how he played in the Minny game. |
We lost that game tho. Tonight we won. Lin played 30 minutes had 11 and 5 on a night where everyone was involved in the offense...im not seeing what the problem is here. They saw that the pistons were over-helping on kobe and exploited the defense accordingly. Its one game in a long season and Lin will have plenty of opportunities going forward |
Because it was the Pistons. Lakers should not have lost the Minny game, the loss was due to bad execution down the stretch. |
But both the pistons and timberwolves are horrible We built a comfortable lead by playing through kobe tonight, if something is working, you do it over and over until the defense stops you, they didn't so we kept going through kobe. Lin had a hand in this as well because he kept dumping it to kobe because he recognized it was working. Im sure that he had no problem with the plan tonight because kobe was such a willing passer. Im willing to bet that Lin is more satisfied with the result of this game than the timberwolves game, even if it means his numbers werent as good. He was still involved in the offense, hitting open shots created by the attention on kobe, and capitalized on the weakside pnr to create opportunities for others, all within the flow of the game today. It was a solid team win |
This is my sentiment exactly. They won this game by defending. Lin helped limit Jennings to 2 for 10 shooting and 3 turnovers. He only took 5 shots because Hill was hot and you have to keep feeding the bigs when they're hitting. Lin had 5 assists with limited play making opps so that is a great stat. |
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rockets killer
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| Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 9:20 pm Post subject: |
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| cheesysapien wrote: | | anpherknee wrote: |
... Lakers should not have lost the Minny game, the loss was due to bad execution down the stretch.
But both the pistons and timberwolves are horrible We built a comfortable lead by playing through kobe tonight, if something is working, you do it over and over until the defense stops you, they didn't so we kept going through kobe. Lin had a hand in this as well because he kept dumping it to kobe because he recognized it was working. Im sure that he had no problem with the plan tonight because kobe was such a willing passer. Im willing to bet that Lin is more satisfied with the result of this game than the timberwolves game, even if it means his numbers werent as good. He was still involved in the offense, hitting open shots created by the attention on kobe, and capitalized on the weakside pnr to create opportunities for others, all within the flow of the game today. It was a solid team win |
That was Byron's message to Lin |
did BS do that crazy rotation in the 4th? pulled lin out of the game and it backfired? timberwolves game . go check DB's post game thoughts. Wasn't it the bench that was stinking it. that nearly happened today . lol . sorry rejog my memory |
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bws94
Star Player
Joined: 28 Oct 2014
Posts: 1563
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| Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 9:22 pm Post subject: |
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| cheesysapien wrote: | | anpherknee wrote: |
... Lakers should not have lost the Minny game, the loss was due to bad execution down the stretch.
But both the pistons and timberwolves are horrible We built a comfortable lead by playing through kobe tonight, if something is working, you do it over and over until the defense stops you, they didn't so we kept going through kobe. Lin had a hand in this as well because he kept dumping it to kobe because he recognized it was working. Im sure that he had no problem with the plan tonight because kobe was such a willing passer. Im willing to bet that Lin is more satisfied with the result of this game than the timberwolves game, even if it means his numbers werent as good. He was still involved in the offense, hitting open shots created by the attention on kobe, and capitalized on the weakside pnr to create opportunities for others, all within the flow of the game today. It was a solid team win |
That was Byron's message to Lin |
My problem with Byron is lack of creativity and variety and maximizing the personnel. A better team would have shut this down tonight. And it isn't a good way to run the offense because better teams are coming. There's one tomorrow. |
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pooh108159
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Location: Hampton, VA
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| Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 9:25 pm Post subject: |
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| trade for t ross watch his numbers while derozan is out. that guy is a stud he just needs out of toronto. i would call and trade wes, houston first for him. he is smooth. |
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autoprt
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| Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 9:29 pm Post subject: |
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| if anyone told me we'd be tied with OKC with the same record this time of year i would said you're crazy. we need to get a big man somehow. is it possible bynum has anything left? i think kobe could get his head back in the game. |
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trunkz08
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Joined: 12 Nov 2014
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| Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 9:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Might as well give Bynum a shot. We have no legit centers on this team. |
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purple.23
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| Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 10:37 pm Post subject: |
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| fadeaway3 wrote: | | I think Kobe is sending Lin a message here. Either man up and do your job or I'm going to do it for you. Kobe doesn't give a fack about the 10 turnovers, he'll fart in your face and say you're welcome. Lin needs a bit of that toughness. |
Lin will let Kobe do that and lose the game, against any decent West team. |
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pio2u
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Joined: 26 Dec 2012
Posts: 54623
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| Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 10:46 pm Post subject: |
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| purple.23 wrote: | | fadeaway3 wrote: | | I think Kobe is sending Lin a message here. Either man up and do your job or I'm going to do it for you. Kobe doesn't give a fack about the 10 turnovers, he'll fart in your face and say you're welcome. Lin needs a bit of that toughness. |
Lin will let Kobe do that and lose the game, against any decent West team. |
most decent West teams will beat us anyway (regardless, regardless) |
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AVoiceInTheCrowd
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Joined: 30 Jul 2014
Posts: 74
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| Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 12:02 am Post subject: |
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| Avada wrote: | | AVoiceInTheCrowd wrote: | | Avada wrote: | | greenfrog wrote: |
It means exactly what i've said twenty times...it has nothing to with passing. If you never attempt a pass it will be never be reflected in that stat and you can dishonestly argue that [blank] player is a great ballhander, etc, etc |
..
You're exactly right. It does have nothing to do with passing. You're still trying to make it more complicated than it needs to be. if you never make a pass it won't be reflected in your turnover rate...because it's literally just a measure of how often you turn it over. Nobody is saying that it's a perfect stat, nobody is saying you can blindly look at turnover rate if you're comparing different type of players. For example, a ball-dominant PG is always going to have a much higher turnover rate than a spot-up shooter. Nobody is going to try to argue that Melo is a better ball-handler than Curry because his turnover rate is lower. You're continuing to over complicate things. Nobody is saying you have to ignore context.
None of this changes the fact that Bryant has a turnover rate of 11% for his career while consistently being one of the best non-PG play-makers/creators in the league, consistently doing a ton of the ball-handling, and consistently posting huge usage rate, which means that calling him a "high turnover player'' is absurd. That is just a fact. |
TO rate isn't a good indicator of whether your a "high turnover player" or not.
Rondo has one of the worst TO rates at 14.2%. No one thinks he is a turnover machine at 10.5 assist vs 3.2 to's.
I don't have a strong opinion on Kobe either way. I just don't think tov is a useful stat in and of itself. |
Um, Rondo has a turnover rate of 24% this season: http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/rondora01.html
That's well above the league-average of 13%. So yeah, he is a high turnover player. Nobody is going to complain because he's a great passer who is averaging 11+ APG and has AST% rate of 45%, and is dominating the ball, which is why nobody considers him a turnover machine. Obviously, you can't just blindly look at the turnover rate without considering role and style. TOV% is perfectly useful as long as you're willing to consider context and don't take for more than it is. |
It's 14.2% from this source. http://stats.nba.com/league/player/#!/advanced/?sort=TM_TOV_PCT&dir=1
Whatever the number, both sources have him listed as having one of the worst TO rates in the game. But, as you said nobody considers him a turnover machine or considers him a "high turnover player" including every nba gm, scout, or coach irregardless of what TO rate he has.
That's the problem. Most people don't use context when throwing out stats like TOV. And that's why I wrote above that tov IN AND OF ITSELF isn't a useful stat. |
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