Kobe is and has been a great player. But he is not as good as Michael Jordan. Very few players will ever be as good as Jordan. Jordan was a pure shooter; Kobe is a good volume shooter.
Although Reggie Miller's statement was silly, the intent was accurate and appreciated. Michael was a much better player than Kobe Bryant.
You're not in Reggie Miller's mind so you can't know what his intent was,you can appreciate what he said,that's your prerogative and your own business.
Miller's statement was not accurate but asinine.
Correction,utterly asinine.
I may not be in his head, but you didn't play against Kobe and MJ. Reggie Miller did. I'll take his opinion over yours because he has actual experience.
I repeat...MJ was a better player than Kobe.
And I will take John Wooden's opinion over both you and Reggie Miller as Kobe as the greatest of all time over Jordan.
And it isn't by any means a slight for Jordan to be behind Kobe...were talking about a guy that scored 81 points in a game here...something no other guard has done in the nba. It's not an insult for Jordan to be behind Kobe if you look at what Kobe has accomplished.
And now I can add longevity, 32k 6k 6k club, and 3rd all time points over Jordan to my argument.
That quote was never substantiated. It may have been misheard or misinterpreted by the comedian who claimed it to have been said.
Also, the quote is being misrepresented. I thought the actual quote, which only 1 person has ever actually heard and that person was some comedian, was that he thought Kobe was the best to play the game from a physical point of view.
Wooden also said he'd take Lebron over Kobe in 2009 before Kobe had won rings 4 and 5. Do you agree with that? Or just the other part?
I don't understand, does the fact that he was a comedian / writer some how makes it unjustifiable for you. You realize it was a direct question he asked wooden over lunch when wooden specified Kobe over Jordan.
The 'physical point of view' He also stated on another occasion. It's just an additional supporting statement that shows wooden has made similar comments.
Kobe is and has been a great player. But he is not as good as Michael Jordan. Very few players will ever be as good as Jordan. Jordan was a pure shooter; Kobe is a good volume shooter.
Although Reggie Miller's statement was silly, the intent was accurate and appreciated. Michael was a much better player than Kobe Bryant.
You're not in Reggie Miller's mind so you can't know what his intent was,you can appreciate what he said,that's your prerogative and your own business.
Miller's statement was not accurate but asinine.
Correction,utterly asinine.
I may not be in his head, but you didn't play against Kobe and MJ. Reggie Miller did. I'll take his opinion over yours because he has actual experience.
I repeat...MJ was a better player than Kobe.
And I will take John Wooden's opinion over both you and Reggie Miller as Kobe as the greatest of all time over Jordan.
And it isn't by any means a slight for Jordan to be behind Kobe...were talking about a guy that scored 81 points in a game here...something no other guard has done in the nba. It's not an insult for Jordan to be behind Kobe if you look at what Kobe has accomplished.
And now I can add longevity, 32k 6k 6k club, and 3rd all time points over Jordan to my argument.
That quote was never substantiated. It may have been misheard or misinterpreted by the comedian who claimed it to have been said.
Also, the quote is being misrepresented. I thought the actual quote, which only 1 person has ever actually heard and that person was some comedian, was that he thought Kobe was the best to play the game from a physical point of view.
Wooden also said he'd take Lebron over Kobe in 2009 before Kobe had won rings 4 and 5. Do you agree with that? Or just the other part?
I don't understand, does the fact that he was a comedian / writer some how makes it unjustifiable for you. You realize it was a direct question he asked wooden over lunch when wooden specified Kobe over Jordan.
The 'physical point of view' He also stated on another occasion. It's just an additional supporting statement that shows wooden has made similar comments.
Lunch? Hmmm. I thought it was breakfast.
The fact that a comedian, who may or may not have been trying to be comedic, is the only person on the planet of Earth to have purportedly heard that is suspect at best.
No one even knows the actual quote, or, the actual words John Wooden says. All we do know is how the comedian interpeted his statement. No way to know about context, possible misinterpetation, let alone actual accuracy.
Is Wooden's actual quote published anywhere do you know? I've only ever seen accounts of what the comedian thought he heard Wooden say but never an actual quote of Wooden's words.
Joined: 20 Apr 2006 Posts: 15294 Location: Southern California
Posted: Sun Dec 21, 2014 2:18 pm Post subject:
george w kush wrote:
Do some homers here actually think Kobe is better than Michael Jordan?
yes and it's their opinion. But as you can see, it's clearly split even in this particular thread. Like I've stated before, ESPN, FOX and SI all did similar polls and everyone had Jordan head and shoulders above Bryant even in California. Just opinions, everyone has one.
That's why this passing Jordan was so important in the eyes of many. Anytime you pass the alleged Great Player Ever especially when you know Bryant will not pass Jordan in the money categories (rings, finals mvp's, mvp's), it will be made into a huge issue by some. I mean, when he passed Shaquille and Wilt, it wasn't anything like this. He passed the Man. The man who "the majority" of players in this era and "the majority" of past eras call the Greatest to ever lace them up.
In every poll taken, whether it be fans, players, coaches, writers or Martians, Jordan will always be in the top 2 or 3 and will be placed firmly in the top spot on most, if not all. I mean, even LG is split and that should be pro-Bryant.
Do some homers here actually think Kobe is better than Michael Jordan?
yes and it's their opinion. But as you can see, it's clearly split even in this particular thread. Like I've stated before, ESPN, FOX and SI all did similar polls and everyone had Jordan head and shoulders above Bryant even in California. Just opinions, everyone has one.
That's why this passing Jordan was so important in the eyes of many. Anytime you pass the alleged Great Player Ever especially when you know Bryant will not pass Jordan in the money categories (rings, finals mvp's, mvp's), it will be made into a huge issue by some. I mean, when he passed Shaquille and Wilt, it wasn't anything like this. He passed the Man. The man who "the majority" of players in this era and "the majority" of past eras call the Greatest to ever lace them up.
In every poll taken, whether it be fans, players, coaches, writers or Martians, Jordan will always be in the top 2 or 3 and will be placed firmly in the top spot on most, if not all. I mean, even LG is split and that should be pro-Bryant.
The issue is Jordan's accolades came in a watered down era. When you win a race against turtles it doesn't really mean much. People believe in Nike ads, ESPN, etc. they don't look at the context of the game...so it's obvious why Michael Jordan has the popular vote.
Do some homers here actually think Kobe is better than Michael Jordan?
yes and it's their opinion. But as you can see, it's clearly split even in this particular thread. Like I've stated before, ESPN, FOX and SI all did similar polls and everyone had Jordan head and shoulders above Bryant even in California. Just opinions, everyone has one.
That's why this passing Jordan was so important in the eyes of many. Anytime you pass the alleged Great Player Ever especially when you know Bryant will not pass Jordan in the money categories (rings, finals mvp's, mvp's), it will be made into a huge issue by some. I mean, when he passed Shaquille and Wilt, it wasn't anything like this. He passed the Man. The man who "the majority" of players in this era and "the majority" of past eras call the Greatest to ever lace them up.
In every poll taken, whether it be fans, players, coaches, writers or Martians, Jordan will always be in the top 2 or 3 and will be placed firmly in the top spot on most, if not all. I mean, even LG is split and that should be pro-Bryant.
The issue is Jordan's accolades came in a watered down era. When you win a race against turtles it doesn't really mean much. People believe in Nike ads, ESPN, etc. they don't look at the context of the game...so it's obvious why Michael Jordan has the popular vote.
Joined: 20 Apr 2006 Posts: 15294 Location: Southern California
Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2014 2:02 pm Post subject:
Jeggs wrote:
doughboy90650 wrote:
george w kush wrote:
Do some homers here actually think Kobe is better than Michael Jordan?
yes and it's their opinion. But as you can see, it's clearly split even in this particular thread. Like I've stated before, ESPN, FOX and SI all did similar polls and everyone had Jordan head and shoulders above Bryant even in California. Just opinions, everyone has one.
That's why this passing Jordan was so important in the eyes of many. Anytime you pass the alleged Great Player Ever especially when you know Bryant will not pass Jordan in the money categories (rings, finals mvp's, mvp's), it will be made into a huge issue by some. I mean, when he passed Shaquille and Wilt, it wasn't anything like this. He passed the Man. The man who "the majority" of players in this era and "the majority" of past eras call the Greatest to ever lace them up.
In every poll taken, whether it be fans, players, coaches, writers or Martians, Jordan will always be in the top 2 or 3 and will be placed firmly in the top spot on most, if not all. I mean, even LG is split and that should be pro-Bryant.
The issue is Jordan's accolades came in a watered down era. When you win a race against turtles it doesn't really mean much. People believe in Nike ads, ESPN, etc. they don't look at the context of the game...so it's obvious why Michael Jordan has the popular vote.
And yet, the majority of guys that played and coached against him, the majority of guys that played and coached before him, and the majority of guys that played and coached after him still call him the greatest - even knowing he played in a "so-called expansion/watered down league." All those guys, many who are HOFers, must be misinformed or brainwashed because of ESPN and Mars Blackmon. Kinda hard for me to believe that those guys don't look at the context of the game especially with them on the floor night after night.
Joined: 20 Apr 2006 Posts: 15294 Location: Southern California
Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2014 2:35 pm Post subject:
Ossim wrote:
LoL calling it the watered down era. Swaggy P probably wouldn't have even been given a foul for that elbow back then.
If Jordan was playing two guard for the Lakers in the 90s, it damn sure wouldn't have been considered a watered down league. Or if Kobe were in New York, Laker fans probably would be like Jordan is the unquestioned greatest or it was Earv. As far as Young, Probably just called a personal foul back then.
Put me in the "stupid" group that thinks Kobe is as good or better than Jordan ever was. He has longevity and higher peaks on his side. Jordan did a couple things better than Kobe, but Kobe does some things better than Jordan. Kobe is more rounded, and has adapted not just Jordan's game but a lot of the other all time greats. If they played 1 on 1 against each other for one game winner take all, I choose Kobe. If they played 10 games I say Kobe wins 6 of them. Just my opinion. I've seen both play in their prime. _________________ "Bryant has been the second best player in the NBA for over a decade, but the number 1 player changes every other year. Somehow the number 1 player always seems to fall down the list but Kobe just never moves up. ". The Art of Hating Kobe Bryant
Kobe is and has been a great player. But he is not as good as Michael Jordan. Very few players will ever be as good as Jordan. Jordan was a pure shooter; Kobe is a good volume shooter.
Although Reggie Miller's statement was silly, the intent was accurate and appreciated. Michael was a much better player than Kobe Bryant.
You're not in Reggie Miller's mind so you can't know what his intent was,you can appreciate what he said,that's your prerogative and your own business.
Miller's statement was not accurate but asinine.
Correction,utterly asinine.
I may not be in his head, but you didn't play against Kobe and MJ. Reggie Miller did. I'll take his opinion over yours because he has actual experience.
I repeat...MJ was a better player than Kobe.
And I will take John Wooden's opinion over both you and Reggie Miller as Kobe as the greatest of all time over Jordan.
And it isn't by any means a slight for Jordan to be behind Kobe...were talking about a guy that scored 81 points in a game here...something no other guard has done in the nba. It's not an insult for Jordan to be behind Kobe if you look at what Kobe has accomplished.
And now I can add longevity, 32k 6k 6k club, and 3rd all time points over Jordan to my argument.
That quote was never substantiated. It may have been misheard or misinterpreted by the comedian who claimed it to have been said.
Also, the quote is being misrepresented. I thought the actual quote, which only 1 person has ever actually heard and that person was some comedian, was that he thought Kobe was the best to play the game from a physical point of view.
Wooden also said he'd take Lebron over Kobe in 2009 before Kobe had won rings 4 and 5. Do you agree with that? Or just the other part?
I don't understand, does the fact that he was a comedian / writer some how makes it unjustifiable for you. You realize it was a direct question he asked wooden over lunch when wooden specified Kobe over Jordan.
The 'physical point of view' He also stated on another occasion. It's just an additional supporting statement that shows wooden has made similar comments.
Thanks to yinoma, we actually have a quote on this from Wooden himself
"At the same time, I’ll say I think easily, and I’m not prone to do this, to say anyone is the best. But I now say Michael Jordan’s the best that’s ever played the game. I believe that, and I’ll say that without hesitating. I didn’t say that before he dropped out a year and came back. I wasn’t sure.
But since he’s come back. I remember one time him saying, ‘Me and my supporting cast.’ And I don’t like that. I tried to teach my players, ‘In a play you have to have a lead, but that lead’s no good unless you have a supporting cast. You need a director, too, so you need me a little bit. Just a little bit.'
But to me he’s absolutely the greatest that’s ever played. Offense, defense everything."
http://weblogs.dailypress.com/sports/teelblog/2010/06/oneonone_with_john_wooden.html _________________ LBJ + AD = More rings
Never argue with a fool - listeners can't tell you apart
Wilt's unstoppable fadeaway: www.youtube.com/watch?v=8O9MgNfcGJA
NPZ's Magic Johnson mix: www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8Qbo0WqvOI
Kobe is and has been a great player. But he is not as good as Michael Jordan. Very few players will ever be as good as Jordan. Jordan was a pure shooter; Kobe is a good volume shooter.
Although Reggie Miller's statement was silly, the intent was accurate and appreciated. Michael was a much better player than Kobe Bryant.
You're not in Reggie Miller's mind so you can't know what his intent was,you can appreciate what he said,that's your prerogative and your own business.
Miller's statement was not accurate but asinine.
Correction,utterly asinine.
I may not be in his head, but you didn't play against Kobe and MJ. Reggie Miller did. I'll take his opinion over yours because he has actual experience.
I repeat...MJ was a better player than Kobe.
And I will take John Wooden's opinion over both you and Reggie Miller as Kobe as the greatest of all time over Jordan.
And it isn't by any means a slight for Jordan to be behind Kobe...were talking about a guy that scored 81 points in a game here...something no other guard has done in the nba. It's not an insult for Jordan to be behind Kobe if you look at what Kobe has accomplished.
And now I can add longevity, 32k 6k 6k club, and 3rd all time points over Jordan to my argument.
That quote was never substantiated. It may have been misheard or misinterpreted by the comedian who claimed it to have been said.
Also, the quote is being misrepresented. I thought the actual quote, which only 1 person has ever actually heard and that person was some comedian, was that he thought Kobe was the best to play the game from a physical point of view.
Wooden also said he'd take Lebron over Kobe in 2009 before Kobe had won rings 4 and 5. Do you agree with that? Or just the other part?
I don't understand, does the fact that he was a comedian / writer some how makes it unjustifiable for you. You realize it was a direct question he asked wooden over lunch when wooden specified Kobe over Jordan.
The 'physical point of view' He also stated on another occasion. It's just an additional supporting statement that shows wooden has made similar comments.
Thanks to yinoma, we actually have a quote on this from Wooden himself
"At the same time, I’ll say I think easily, and I’m not prone to do this, to say anyone is the best. But I now say Michael Jordan’s the best that’s ever played the game. I believe that, and I’ll say that without hesitating. I didn’t say that before he dropped out a year and came back. I wasn’t sure.
But since he’s come back. I remember one time him saying, ‘Me and my supporting cast.’ And I don’t like that. I tried to teach my players, ‘In a play you have to have a lead, but that lead’s no good unless you have a supporting cast. You need a director, too, so you need me a little bit. Just a little bit.'
But to me he’s absolutely the greatest that’s ever played. Offense, defense everything."
http://weblogs.dailypress.com/sports/teelblog/2010/06/oneonone_with_john_wooden.html
Wooden picked MJ in 1998. Kobe hadn't done anything yet, and MJ was basically in peak form.
The aforementioned quote by Bob Einstein came way way later, like around 2009-ish. So even though Einstein is a clown, that's all we have today. MJ basically said it himself as well.
People are really going down a well of confusion because we're just talking numbers here, and numbers don't prove anything in basketball regarding these kinds of questions. We've actually had a professional statistician explain so in the forums here why it doesn't work. But all you have to do is give yourself a few hours and just veg out on some youtube videos of games with MJ and Kobe games. it will be pretty clear their differences/similarities, what advantages one had over the other, the different playing styles of both the teams and the eras in general.
Nobody touches the popularity of MJ, no question. Skill wise, Kobe has surpassed him. It's very similar to how Federer surpassed Pete Sampras' skill set...especially with how soon they came along after their predecessor. Everyone thought Sampras' GS record would last for a very long time, not be broken almost immediately. Kobe did the same, except with more abrasive results. People just don't like Kobe. Most of the things people use to take Kobe down a notch have nothing to do with actual skills. It's usually vague, emotional arguments and stuff you can't really see.
Do some homers here actually think Kobe is better than Michael Jordan?
yes and it's their opinion. But as you can see, it's clearly split even in this particular thread. Like I've stated before, ESPN, FOX and SI all did similar polls and everyone had Jordan head and shoulders above Bryant even in California. Just opinions, everyone has one.
That's why this passing Jordan was so important in the eyes of many. Anytime you pass the alleged Great Player Ever especially when you know Bryant will not pass Jordan in the money categories (rings, finals mvp's, mvp's), it will be made into a huge issue by some. I mean, when he passed Shaquille and Wilt, it wasn't anything like this. He passed the Man. The man who "the majority" of players in this era and "the majority" of past eras call the Greatest to ever lace them up.
In every poll taken, whether it be fans, players, coaches, writers or Martians, Jordan will always be in the top 2 or 3 and will be placed firmly in the top spot on most, if not all. I mean, even LG is split and that should be pro-Bryant.
The issue is Jordan's accolades came in a watered down era. When you win a race against turtles it doesn't really mean much. People believe in Nike ads, ESPN, etc. they don't look at the context of the game...so it's obvious why Michael Jordan has the popular vote.
I hate the watered down era argument. It's just an excuse people make to give Kobe an extra edge against Jordan. That era was 10x as physical as this one and also featured some of the greatest shot blockers of all time. Hakeem, Ewing, eaton, dikembe, shaq etc. if you played in that era nothing came easy.
I always thought it was a little ridiculous that we compare players based on how they look versus the talent of their own era. Its impossible to judge how these people would fare in different eras because of a multitude of factors. I personally believe in evolution and that it is evident in all sports. Players are bigger and faster than they've ever been and that factors into the collective talent. I feel like the league has gotten a better as a whole.
I think nostalgia reigns supreme in a lot of peoples eyes and they can't distance themselves from that. Especially former players. There are only a few that are willing to distance themselves from the players they played with to make an unbiased opinion.
I feel I have discussed this a billion times though, and its not making any difference
Kobe is and has been a great player. But he is not as good as Michael Jordan. Very few players will ever be as good as Jordan. Jordan was a pure shooter; Kobe is a good volume shooter.
Although Reggie Miller's statement was silly, the intent was accurate and appreciated. Michael was a much better player than Kobe Bryant.
You're not in Reggie Miller's mind so you can't know what his intent was,you can appreciate what he said,that's your prerogative and your own business.
Miller's statement was not accurate but asinine.
Correction,utterly asinine.
I may not be in his head, but you didn't play against Kobe and MJ. Reggie Miller did. I'll take his opinion over yours because he has actual experience.
I repeat...MJ was a better player than Kobe.
And I will take John Wooden's opinion over both you and Reggie Miller as Kobe as the greatest of all time over Jordan.
And it isn't by any means a slight for Jordan to be behind Kobe...were talking about a guy that scored 81 points in a game here...something no other guard has done in the nba. It's not an insult for Jordan to be behind Kobe if you look at what Kobe has accomplished.
And now I can add longevity, 32k 6k 6k club, and 3rd all time points over Jordan to my argument.
That quote was never substantiated. It may have been misheard or misinterpreted by the comedian who claimed it to have been said.
Also, the quote is being misrepresented. I thought the actual quote, which only 1 person has ever actually heard and that person was some comedian, was that he thought Kobe was the best to play the game from a physical point of view.
Wooden also said he'd take Lebron over Kobe in 2009 before Kobe had won rings 4 and 5. Do you agree with that? Or just the other part?
I don't understand, does the fact that he was a comedian / writer some how makes it unjustifiable for you. You realize it was a direct question he asked wooden over lunch when wooden specified Kobe over Jordan.
The 'physical point of view' He also stated on another occasion. It's just an additional supporting statement that shows wooden has made similar comments.
Thanks to yinoma, we actually have a quote on this from Wooden himself
"At the same time, I’ll say I think easily, and I’m not prone to do this, to say anyone is the best. But I now say Michael Jordan’s the best that’s ever played the game. I believe that, and I’ll say that without hesitating. I didn’t say that before he dropped out a year and came back. I wasn’t sure.
But since he’s come back. I remember one time him saying, ‘Me and my supporting cast.’ And I don’t like that. I tried to teach my players, ‘In a play you have to have a lead, but that lead’s no good unless you have a supporting cast. You need a director, too, so you need me a little bit. Just a little bit.'
But to me he’s absolutely the greatest that’s ever played. Offense, defense everything."
http://weblogs.dailypress.com/sports/teelblog/2010/06/oneonone_with_john_wooden.html
This interview was in 1998. You seriously trying to pass this off as him assessing Kobe v. MJ? _________________ “It took many years of vomiting up all the filth I’d been taught about myself, and half-believed, before I was able to walk on the earth as though I had a right to be here.”
― James Baldwin, Collected Essays
Wooden picked MJ in 1998. Kobe hadn't done anything yet, and MJ was basically in peak form.
The aforementioned quote by Bob Einstein came way way later, like around 2009-ish. So even though Einstein is a clown, that's all we have today. MJ basically said it himself as well.
What we have is a case where Bob Einstein - aka Super Dave Osborn - told someone else what Wooden supposedly said at a breakfast he'd been at with a 98 year old Wooden something like 6 or 8 months earlier. If you listen to the clip of Super Dave, it's pretty apparent he's a huge Kobe fan himself.
1. there is no direct quote or video of wooden ever saying this
2. In a court of law, hearsay is when 1 person reports what some other person supposedly told them - and it's generally not admissible because it's so unreliable.
what you have here is Super Dave, not the most reliable person to begin with and obviously having his own biased opinion on the subject, reporting what 98 year old Wooden supposedly (SUPPOSEDLY) said to him 6 or 8 months ago.
Take that into a court and they'd laugh your azz out of there.
And, we're supposed to believe, with all (ALL) the interviews that Wooden gave later in life where he talked about the game the changes in college rules and the draft and commented on various players - that the ONLY time he ever said Kobe is the best is at breakfast with an azzclown like Super Dave?
Like I said, take that into a court and they'd laugh your butt right out of there. Not credible at all.
On the other hand, we do have an actual quote, on paper with audio backup, of what he thought about MJ. _________________ LBJ + AD = More rings
Never argue with a fool - listeners can't tell you apart
Wilt's unstoppable fadeaway: www.youtube.com/watch?v=8O9MgNfcGJA
NPZ's Magic Johnson mix: www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8Qbo0WqvOI
10 times? Reggie, that's nothing, more like a bazillion times better. In fact, Kobe should never have even been allowed to be on the court the same time as Michael.
I do think MJ is better than Kobe, not by much... more like a more consistent version of Kobe
MJ on his worst day got 42 dropped by Kobe, in a half
Yes but MJ was Wizards MJ when that happened. Kobe dropped 42 points on a guy well past his prime playing with a bunch of Tito Jacksons. If Lebron did that to Kobe today it really wouldn't mean much. Not like lbj could score 42 in a half though.
this seems a bit sensationalist from reggie. i know kobe's having a pretty terrible season, but this is a stark contrast from how he was pretty generous with praise for kobe after the 2010 WCF, ironically also comparing him to MJ, but in a positive way
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