Joined: 23 Jun 2005 Posts: 8488 Location: The (real) short corner
Posted: Thu Jan 15, 2015 7:58 pm Post subject:
A Mad Chinaman wrote:
fiendishoc wrote:
Phillycheese wrote:
It's because this team has a bunch of ball hogs that do not trust each other or the coach or Kobe, to do the right thing. Ellington, Young, Kobe, Wes, Boozer and Hill all look for their shots first, to heck with their teammates. The coach doesn't give a crap and does nothing to curb it. Heck even Sacre is becoming like that. I actually don't mind Lin or Price dribbling around to find the best shot because when they pass it off, it's never moving around anyways.
They're settling for jumpers and when they miss, and they have been missing, you get the 0-18 hole that we saw. Ok now two games where Lin has tried to get Swaggy going, they need to put a stop to this. Lin or Price needs to take the rock out of his hands and only deliver it when he is uncovered
What's more likely? That seven non-PG rotation players just happen to be selfish players? Or that it's something to do with the coaching?
Ball movement needs to be constantly preached by the coaches. They also have to implement sets that have continued motion, multiple options, and good spacing, or else the players will either stand there or run into each other.
I'll repost what I posted in the other thread-
It seems like most of the called plays end with one option, which is a shot, isolation or a screen for a certain player. Once that option is exhausted, the players are on their own in terms of where to move, where to set screens, where to cut, etc.- in other words, pickup ball. The players then revert to their natural tendencies, rather than to seek efficient shots, and because the spacing is not structured, the lane is jammed with help defenders, so the only shot you're going to get is the long two.
Once in a while you see a Princeton/ Triangle based set with several options, but if they don't run it with a purpose, then it devolves back into what I described above, except with less time on the clock.-
So when Lin dribbles across the court and passes to Swaggy, who then gets a screen and then shoots off of it. Well, that's the play that the coaches have them running. If he doesn't get a shot, he passes back and then the team is on their own to figure out how to get a clear look. I'm sure the play has a name, but we might as well call it "get a shot for Swaggy". It's the kind of an old school kind of offensive system that's gradually being phased out of the league.
Interested and appreciated observations
It seems as if Swaggy has any chance of taking the shot, he is going to take it and miss. Even though Swaggy has started to integrate Kobe's suggestion of being more efficient on offense, he still takes up precious time off the shot clock - hence the team does have the collective confidence to quickly run a set or the consistent shooters to bail them out. JLin has had several bad TOs where he was telegraphing the entry pass to Swaggy. (Is there a stat that documents the efficiency of JLin or Price - or success rate of an attempted passes. Is there a stat on how many times Swaggy takes a shot or passes the ball?)
Isn't it the PG's responsibility that if the team is disorganized on offense (forgetting the basic offensive principals) to take control or call a play? Given JLin's statiscal success in the past of driving the paint (acknowledging that this year his closing percentage has seemingly dropped), one wonders why this simple plan has not been seen more. The other elite/top guards have demonstrated that ability.
If JLin is unwilling or unable and Price's ability to create on his own is negligible, who/how/what should the team do to make sure they always get quality shots. With Price on the floor, it was Kobe (but what happens if he is not on the court). From the bench, who should they depend on - Ellington, Johnson, etc. The offensive consistent inefficiencies of Davis and JHill to force doubleteams has made it harder for JLin - hence the importance of Boozer and RKelly
It's not the PG's responsibility, because the offense shouldn't break down in the first place and when it does, there's not enough time on the shot clock to run anything but the simplest plays. It's the coach's responsibility to implement secondary actions when the first option can't get an efficient shot. It starts with the precise spacing where everyone is standing in a place where they can be a threat, and not overlap. If the first option was shut down, that likely means that the defense was loading up somewhere and is vulnerable at another point if the offense moves the ball quick enough. You can't rely on the players to figure it out on their own in a pickup basketball situation, because they can't read each others minds. Maybe a team with four experienced superstars or that's been playing together for years can do it instinctively, but even then you still need the coach to put in a system to make it work consistently.
For example, you can look at the Charlotte video I posted earlier for this kind of set that has multiple options and secondary actions, that ran smoothly even with the very limited offensive talent that they had.
It's because this team has a bunch of ball hogs that do not trust each other or the coach or Kobe, to do the right thing. Ellington, Young, Kobe, Wes, Boozer and Hill all look for their shots first, to heck with their teammates. The coach doesn't give a crap and does nothing to curb it. Heck even Sacre is becoming like that. I actually don't mind Lin or Price dribbling around to find the best shot because when they pass it off, it's never moving around anyways.
They're settling for jumpers and when they miss, and they have been missing, you get the 0-18 hole that we saw. Ok now two games where Lin has tried to get Swaggy going, they need to put a stop to this. Lin or Price needs to take the rock out of his hands and only deliver it when he is uncovered
What's more likely? That seven non-PG rotation players just happen to be selfish players? Or that it's something to do with the coaching?
Ball movement needs to be constantly preached by the coaches. They also have to implement sets that have continued motion, multiple options, and good spacing, or else the players will either stand there or run into each other.
I'll repost what I posted in the other thread-
It seems like most of the called plays end with one option, which is a shot, isolation or a screen for a certain player. Once that option is exhausted, the players are on their own in terms of where to move, where to set screens, where to cut, etc.- in other words, pickup ball. The players then revert to their natural tendencies, rather than to seek efficient shots, and because the spacing is not structured, the lane is jammed with help defenders, so the only shot you're going to get is the long two.
Once in a while you see a Princeton/ Triangle based set with several options, but if they don't run it with a purpose, then it devolves back into what I described above, except with less time on the clock.-
So when Lin dribbles across the court and passes to Swaggy, who then gets a screen and then shoots off of it. Well, that's the play that the coaches have them running. If he doesn't get a shot, he passes back and then the team is on their own to figure out how to get a clear look. I'm sure the play has a name, but we might as well call it "get a shot for Swaggy". It's the kind of an old school kind of offensive system that's gradually being phased out of the league.
Interested and appreciated observations
It seems as if Swaggy has any chance of taking the shot, he is going to take it and miss. Even though Swaggy has started to integrate Kobe's suggestion of being more efficient on offense, he still takes up precious time off the shot clock - hence the team does have the collective confidence to quickly run a set or the consistent shooters to bail them out. JLin has had several bad TOs where he was telegraphing the entry pass to Swaggy. (Is there a stat that documents the efficiency of JLin or Price - or success rate of an attempted passes. Is there a stat on how many times Swaggy takes a shot or passes the ball?)
Isn't it the PG's responsibility that if the team is disorganized on offense (forgetting the basic offensive principals) to take control or call a play? Given JLin's statiscal success in the past of driving the paint (acknowledging that this year his closing percentage has seemingly dropped), one wonders why this simple plan has not been seen more. The other elite/top guards have demonstrated that ability.
If JLin is unwilling or unable and Price's ability to create on his own is negligible, who/how/what should the team do to make sure they always get quality shots. With Price on the floor, it was Kobe (but what happens if he is not on the court). From the bench, who should they depend on - Ellington, Johnson, etc. The offensive consistent inefficiencies of Davis and JHill to force doubleteams has made it harder for JLin - hence the importance of Boozer and RKelly
There was a tweet by John Schuhmann analyzing which players are most likely to shoot coming off a screen. Swaggy led the pack being 2.3 times above the league average (big surprise I'm sure). Not exactly what you asked, but gets the idea.
Not sure about statistics of the efficacy of entry post passes for a player, but Lin may have some bad habits here since he's used to passing to Howard which makes it easier.
The Spurs and Hawks offensive mindset is to pass on bad shots for good shots and pass on good shots for better shots. The Laker's offensive mindset is to...get a shot, any shot? Or take the shot the defense wants you to take? An awful lot of times that shot is a 15 foot jumper by Hill/Boozer/Sacre which isn't sustainable.
Joined: 23 Jun 2005 Posts: 8488 Location: The (real) short corner
Posted: Sat Jan 17, 2015 10:52 am Post subject:
The Lakers Offense vs the Jazz Offense
I'll break down why there is such a stark contrast in ball movement and teamwork between the Lakers and Jazz. It has to do with the sets that they run.
I've often mentioned that the Lakers have an outdated offensive style, because they will call a play for a certain player, and if it doesn't work, they reset, at which point it becomes pickup ball or an isolation. Even when they run an initial triangle set, you see there's only really one option (freethrow line jumper).
Here are the three of the most common plays you'll see for the Lakers:
Floppy
Byron likes to call this play for the shooter Ellington. Ellington starts under the basket and gets a double pindown to pop out for the jumper (usually mid range).
Result: The defender sees it coming and Ellington doesn't get free for the shot. The play has already reset at this point, and now you have a wing who's not a great PnR ball handler with the ball, and there's no real movement on for the Lakers on the other side. He throws to Hill for the inefficient post iso attempt which he misses.
Elbow
This is a called play for a wing, a high post split with the PG setting a pindown screen, and a play that we should all be familiar with. In this case it's Lin screening for Wes Johnson, who can either curl to the basket for a pass, or most likely pop out to get a handoff from the big.
Video http://on.nba.com/1ucspW4
Movement http://on.nba.com/1uctOvV
Result: You actually see Utah Coach Quin Snyder see the play coming and call it out. They deny the elbow, so Hill catches it further out than usual. When Wes gets the pass, they deny him the screen from Hill middle, so he tries to attack off the dribble, which is not his strength and he bricks it.
High pick and roll
Nothing too complicated here- Ed Davis sets the screen for Lin going sideline, but Lin chooses to attack middle instead.
Result: Where Jordan Hill chooses to stand messes the whole play up. He's up at his favorite spot, the elbow on the weak side, which means that his man is free to block the middle of the driving lane. If Davis had chosen to set the screen middle, same thing- he would have been in the way of the roll to the basket. Rather, Hill should be all the way on the baseline under the basket, so if his man helped, he'd be right there for the dunk.
So Lin runs into Hill and his man, and gives it up to him. Ellington gets the ball without an open shot, so then he runs the PnR with Hill. Now it's Davis' turn to screw up the spacing, by positioning himself on the block. Again, he should be deep next to the baseline, so that Hill has some room to roll to the basket without Davis' man blocking him (not that Hill would have chosen to roll anyway). So then Ellington gives it back to Hill, who launches a tough contested fallaway long 2 and bricks it.
Jazz Motion Offense
Now lets look at what the Jazz do. They actually run Motion Strong on almost every half court possession. It's a set borrowed from the Spurs and Hawks, and probably originally taken from the triangle offense. The trailing big (Favors), usually the inbounder, receives the ball from the PG (Burke) at the top, and then swings it to the weak side wing, Hayward. This gets them into the set early in the shot clock. The initial formation is also perfect for them to run a drag screen PnR if they wanted to.
Burke runs down to help set a double screen for the strong side wing Ingles to pop out. So now Hayward with the ball can choose to throw it into Kanters for the post up or Ingles with the double pindown. He chooses Ingles, who doesn't have the shot, so Kanters comes up to form a Horns formation (double high post). They can run a variety of different things out of this, but most frequently they run Elbow. Note that instead of the Lakers having their non-ball handler running the play, the Jazz have their PG coming off the pindown where he can run a screen roll with the big Favors on top. Favors slips the screen and rolls inside. Note that Kanters has already dropped back down to the baseline under the side of the backboard, giving Favors room to lay it up before the help defender Hill can get there.
So basically, with one set, they went through versions of several of the Laker's favorite actions, had everyone involved, and the right personnel filling each role. They didn't call anything for any particular player, trusting that their offense would get them a good shot at some point in the action, as the right players will be in positions to attack. And the spacing was right for them to threaten both the basket and the three point line. Each stage has multiple options and counters depending on what the defense wants to do. It's almost like a modern version of the triangle, but it's not exactly rocket science for a team to figure out how to string these actions together.
Here they are running it with Hayward coming off the double screen:
He chooses to run Elbow on the other side, except not following through with the pindown and running the screen roll himself, which he finishes at the basket with the And1 layup. Note what the announcers are saying about the Jazz offense compared to the Lakers.
Lakers desperate attempt to isolate
Finally, here is a brilliant offensive possession by the Lakers that sums up their offense tonight perfectly. The play call looks like an isolation for Swaggy, as they try to use his screen to allow Clarkson to get him the ball.
You can tell there's no other option, as Clarkson tries and tries to make the pass, and ends up running 21 seconds off the clock. The other Lakers stand there like statues. Young is so heavily denied that he turns the ball over.
Joined: 15 Sep 2012 Posts: 29281 Location: La La Land
Posted: Sat Jan 17, 2015 10:52 pm Post subject:
fiendishoc wrote:
kikanga wrote:
fiendishoc wrote:
kikanga wrote:
Expected Net Rating Vs. Actual using fiendishoc's work
Code:
Section GP Record OffRtg DefRtg NetRtg ExptRtg ExptVsAct
A 10 1-9 103.6 114.7 -11.1 -4.7 -6.4
B 6 2-4 106.3 112.6 -6.4 -1.4 -5.0
C 4 2-2 104.9 105.2 -0.3 -1.2 +0.9
D 7 3-4 100.3 105.6 -5.3 +1.8 -7.1
E 11 4-7 102.4 105.9 -3.6 -3.7 +0.1
I like these stats alot.
But sample C is less than a point better than E (in ExptVsAct) even though the sample size is only a third as large.
I'm not sure that that proves during time period C our team employed its best strategy and rotations.
In that 4 game sample the two wins came from Kobe dropping a 30 point triple double and a 20 point double double.
If he does that enough in any sample size, it'll look good. But I don't think that is a reasonable expectation for him moving forward.
That's a fair critique, as uncommon events will swing the numbers quite a bit with these small sample sizes. And in sample E, they have improved to playing somewhat average ball overall. But at the same time, in sample D and even in sample E, the offense is significantly worse than in any other period, while the defense is no better than in sample C. Sample C is not big enough, so the best I think we can say is that there is no evidence that putting those four players who can't generate offense in the starting lineup improves the defense beyond what could be done with the same defensive scheme, but there is some evidence that it hurts the offense.
I agree. Even a relative basketball novice can see. Our offense is worse with price and davis starting and ending games instead of Lin and Boozer.
With Lin and Boozer starting we did give up the most points per game to opponents in the league. IIRC, at one point we gave up more than 4 points more than the second worst team in opponents points per game. Now we've dropped to 106.8 and are close to a point and a half better than the worst team (Minnesota). That could be due to pace of course and thus wouldn't show up in defensive efficiency stats.
The defensive efficiency stats for each section, as well as pace, are on the big table (Advanced Stats by Section), so there's no need to use ppg. Regarding how the original starting lineup could have been performing on defense around this point, it all comes down to how much one thinks that the coaching staff simplifying the scheme helped the defense. If you check around page 7 of this thread, or on the archive of DB's game recaps starting from the Toronto game, you can see the optimism we had that they were finally doing sensible things on defense, and how it would improve from there. And it did. The Boozer benching was probably warranted- he and Hill had no chemistry out there on both ends, and the effort was sometimes lacking. But throwing Price in there at the same time was opened up a glaring weakness in the spacing, and muddled things up without a clear indication that it did anything other than just slow the pace down. I would have tried only Davis first, and if that didn't work, have him go back to the bench and then Price in with the starters. And only after that failed would I entertain both- but probably not, because I would have tried Ellington in there with Kobe first, as 24 and GT suggested due to the common sense that you need several shooters out there.
Without experimenting like this, you can't really see what combinations maximize the team's potential. It makes more sense to search for something that seems to work, and THEN ride it for about 15 games to see if it sticks and to build up chemistry.
I agree. If Scott wants to win more games. He should experiment with his rotation more frequently. When something sticks, he should ride it until it doesn't.
I can see why Scott didn't go with Ellington though. Our defensive efficiency is worse than our offensive and who would guard one of the deepest positions in the league and the west conference (PG) with Kobe and Ellington in the backcourt? Maybe...Wes?
But maybe improving our slightly below average offensive efficiency would've maximized our potential more than trying to shore up our bottom dwelling defensive efficiency. Only one way to find out. More experimenting. _________________ "Every hurt is a lesson, and every lesson makes you better”
Honestly we need to start Lin, Kobe, Wes, Hill, and Davis. We need to ramp up the offensive firepower and pump up the starter's stats. We need to fool teams into thinking that these guys are worth 1st rounders due to their offensive prowess! Lack of defense? Just blame Scott and say in a better defensive scheme these guys are alot better than they look
Or admit we don't coach defense at all....
Regardless, the lack of system we currently got is appalling. Watching all of these posted videos and reading everyone's thoughts confirms what my own eyes are seeing out of this sorry excuse for an offense/defense.
I'm currently holding out hope that Scott is just waiting for the trade deadline to pass (meaning no more meaningful roster changes) before he truly decides to implement some sort of system so that the surviving players now have something to potentially build upon for next year. We got a hot potato roster, it could be his own silent way of protest WTF roster did you FO hand me.
Considering that Phil/DFish are/trying to implement The Triangle, is the reason why the figures for the Knicks are so is because of the now departed J.R. Smith or Melo or because of another factor/element?
Is there a stat sheet on Long 2s that compared this Laker team with the first years CP3 spent with BScott?
I'll break down why there is such a stark contrast in ball movement and teamwork between the Lakers and Jazz. It has to do with the sets that they run.
I've often mentioned that the Lakers have an outdated offensive style, because they will call a play for a certain player, and if it doesn't work, they reset, at which point it becomes pickup ball or an isolation. Even when they run an initial triangle set, you see there's only really one option (freethrow line jumper).
Here are the three of the most common plays you'll see for the Lakers:
Floppy
Byron likes to call this play for the shooter Ellington. Ellington starts under the basket and gets a double pindown to pop out for the jumper (usually mid range).
Result: The defender sees it coming and Ellington doesn't get free for the shot. The play has already reset at this point, and now you have a wing who's not a great PnR ball handler with the ball, and there's no real movement on for the Lakers on the other side. He throws to Hill for the inefficient post iso attempt which he misses.
Elbow
This is a called play for a wing, a high post split with the PG setting a pindown screen, and a play that we should all be familiar with. In this case it's Lin screening for Wes Johnson, who can either curl to the basket for a pass, or most likely pop out to get a handoff from the big.
Video http://on.nba.com/1ucspW4
Movement http://on.nba.com/1uctOvV
Result: You actually see Utah Coach Quin Snyder see the play coming and call it out. They deny the elbow, so Hill catches it further out than usual. When Wes gets the pass, they deny him the screen from Hill middle, so he tries to attack off the dribble, which is not his strength and he bricks it.
High pick and roll
Nothing too complicated here- Ed Davis sets the screen for Lin going sideline, but Lin chooses to attack middle instead.
Result: Where Jordan Hill chooses to stand messes the whole play up. He's up at his favorite spot, the elbow on the weak side, which means that his man is free to block the middle of the driving lane. If Davis had chosen to set the screen middle, same thing- he would have been in the way of the roll to the basket. Rather, Hill should be all the way on the baseline under the basket, so if his man helped, he'd be right there for the dunk.
So Lin runs into Hill and his man, and gives it up to him. Ellington gets the ball without an open shot, so then he runs the PnR with Hill. Now it's Davis' turn to screw up the spacing, by positioning himself on the block. Again, he should be deep next to the baseline, so that Hill has some room to roll to the basket without Davis' man blocking him (not that Hill would have chosen to roll anyway). So then Ellington gives it back to Hill, who launches a tough contested fallaway long 2 and bricks it.
Jazz Motion Offense
Now lets look at what the Jazz do. They actually run Motion Strong on almost every half court possession. It's a set borrowed from the Spurs and Hawks, and probably originally taken from the triangle offense. The trailing big (Favors), usually the inbounder, receives the ball from the PG (Burke) at the top, and then swings it to the weak side wing, Hayward. This gets them into the set early in the shot clock. The initial formation is also perfect for them to run a drag screen PnR if they wanted to.
Burke runs down to help set a double screen for the strong side wing Ingles to pop out. So now Hayward with the ball can choose to throw it into Kanters for the post up or Ingles with the double pindown. He chooses Ingles, who doesn't have the shot, so Kanters comes up to form a Horns formation (double high post). They can run a variety of different things out of this, but most frequently they run Elbow. Note that instead of the Lakers having their non-ball handler running the play, the Jazz have their PG coming off the pindown where he can run a screen roll with the big Favors on top. Favors slips the screen and rolls inside. Note that Kanters has already dropped back down to the baseline under the side of the backboard, giving Favors room to lay it up before the help defender Hill can get there.
So basically, with one set, they went through versions of several of the Laker's favorite actions, had everyone involved, and the right personnel filling each role. They didn't call anything for any particular player, trusting that their offense would get them a good shot at some point in the action, as the right players will be in positions to attack. And the spacing was right for them to threaten both the basket and the three point line. Each stage has multiple options and counters depending on what the defense wants to do. It's almost like a modern version of the triangle, but it's not exactly rocket science for a team to figure out how to string these actions together.
Here they are running it with Hayward coming off the double screen:
He chooses to run Elbow on the other side, except not following through with the pindown and running the screen roll himself, which he finishes at the basket with the And1 layup. Note what the announcers are saying about the Jazz offense compared to the Lakers.
Lakers desperate attempt to isolate
Finally, here is a brilliant offensive possession by the Lakers that sums up their offense tonight perfectly. The play call looks like an isolation for Swaggy, as they try to use his screen to allow Clarkson to get him the ball.
You can tell there's no other option, as Clarkson tries and tries to make the pass, and ends up running 21 seconds off the clock. The other Lakers stand there like statues. Young is so heavily denied that he turns the ball over.
(Btw, let me know if the videos don't work)
thanks! nice work. the movement links are pretty awesome and depressing at the same time. and at the end of all this, scott says it's the pg's fault that he didn't get more player involved. not sure what he's really expecting the pg to do. maybe he needs to scream a little more at the bigs for not being at the right spots?
maybe he needs to scream a little more at the bigs for not being at the right spots?
The bigs are in the right spots as far as Scott is concerned. Because, halfway into the season, nothing has changed as far as spacing and they are still doing the same thing if not more so. I.e, running the offense through Hill and Boozer, not just for shooting long 2s, but also putting them in the role of lead decision-maker and facilitator from the elbow (this part is especially funny since Hill is awful at this. Sigh, if only we still had Pau). And not giving any priority to the 3 ball.
If Scott actually cared about spacing, he would not start a player next to Kobe who cannot shoot the 3 ball.
Yea it's mind boggling he'd put Hill, Boozer, and Davis up at the elbow and getting the ball damn near every possession to initiate the offense. While Hill and Boozer can hit an open mid range J, neither can dribble drive worth a damn (well Boozer can somewhat), so really limits what the offense can do from that position. Defenders can take it easy since all they need to worry about is covering wide open J, add some pressure D (since no threat to drive) and thus stall our offense with ease.
Joined: 23 Jun 2005 Posts: 8488 Location: The (real) short corner
Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2015 5:52 pm Post subject:
Slicer wrote:
Yea it's mind boggling he'd put Hill, Boozer, and Davis up at the elbow and getting the ball damn near every possession to initiate the offense. While Hill and Boozer can hit an open mid range J, neither can dribble drive worth a damn (well Boozer can somewhat), so really limits what the offense can do from that position. Defenders can take it easy since all they need to worry about is covering wide open J, add some pressure D (since no threat to drive) and thus stall our offense with ease.
Yeah it doesn't help that Hill plays somewhat selfishly. In Cleveland, Byron had a good passing and handling big in Varejao, and Walton off the bench who was kind of awesome in this role. Guys would move around because they knew that they would get the pass off their cuts. Here, when Hill has the ball no one tries to get open for anything other than popping out to the arc or to get the handoff, because they know he's not a passer. Byron's actually scaled back the amount the offense runs through the bigs, but it's still too much, given our personnel.
Our playcalls are so simple and obvious that I saw Sun's players on numerous occasions call it out themselves. Espcially the elbow plays (i see the Suns guards pointing at their own elbows), where they strong deny the elbow and thus stalling the crap out of the offense. I swear to god Scott needs to either mix up the playbook or use random words to signify different plays.
Disappointed that Lin didnt' do much PnR but it was nice to see him punish the Suns when they overplay by attacking seams and getting layups (but only when Suns bigs are out of position).
Defense, i just dont understand how our bigs are always so out of position, i mean for (bleep) sake, aren't the staff at least telling them to box out on shots and close out/hard hedge on the shooters.
Our playcalls are so simple and obvious that I saw Sun's players on numerous occasions call it out themselves. Espcially the elbow plays (i see the Suns guards pointing at their own elbows), where they strong deny the elbow and thus stalling the crap out of the offense. I swear to god Scott needs to either mix up the playbook or use random words to signify different plays.
Disappointed that Lin didnt' do much PnR but it was nice to see him punish the Suns when they overplay by attacking seams and getting layups (but only when Suns bigs are out of position).
Defense, i just dont understand how our bigs are always so out of position, i mean for (bleep) sake, aren'tn the staff at least telling them to box out on shots and close out/hard hedge on the shooters.
How can the coaches make simple plays that one learns in high school like boxing out?
Every team know the plays of the other teams. Offense is responsible to knowing what the defense is allowing and doing the proper counters.
It is up to the bigs to call the schemes on D
Overall, each game is another confirmation of where these players are at. Players are getting better but are not fully aware of the sacrifices, mental toughness, energy and ability to adjust that is needed to be winners.
Our playcalls are so simple and obvious that I saw Sun's players on numerous occasions call it out themselves. Espcially the elbow plays (i see the Suns guards pointing at their own elbows), where they strong deny the elbow and thus stalling the crap out of the offense. I swear to god Scott needs to either mix up the playbook or use random words to signify different plays.
Disappointed that Lin didnt' do much PnR but it was nice to see him punish the Suns when they overplay by attacking seams and getting layups (but only when Suns bigs are out of position).
Defense, i just dont understand how our bigs are always so out of position, i mean for (bleep) sake, aren'tn the staff at least telling them to box out on shots and close out/hard hedge on the shooters.
How can the coaches make simple plays that one learns in high school like boxing out?
Every team know the plays of the other teams. Offense is responsible to knowing what the defense is allowing and doing the proper counters.
It is up to the bigs to call the schemes on D
Overall, each game is another confirmation of where these players are at. Players are getting better but are not fully aware of the sacrifices, mental toughness, energy and ability to adjust that is needed to be winners.
Rebounding at the NBA level is definitely a skill through understanding where other bigs are and keeping them from slipping under/getting you out of position. The scheme with Hill/Boozer at the elbow doesn't help much either. It's hard to rebound when you're standing at the free throw line.
Our playcalls are so simple and obvious that I saw Sun's players on numerous occasions call it out themselves. Espcially the elbow plays (i see the Suns guards pointing at their own elbows), where they strong deny the elbow and thus stalling the crap out of the offense. I swear to god Scott needs to either mix up the playbook or use random words to signify different plays.
Disappointed that Lin didnt' do much PnR but it was nice to see him punish the Suns when they overplay by attacking seams and getting layups (but only when Suns bigs are out of position).
Defense, i just dont understand how our bigs are always so out of position, i mean for (bleep) sake, aren'tn the staff at least telling them to box out on shots and close out/hard hedge on the shooters.
How can the coaches make simple plays that one learns in high school like boxing out?
Every team know the plays of the other teams. Offense is responsible to knowing what the defense is allowing and doing the proper counters.
It is up to the bigs to call the schemes on D
Overall, each game is another confirmation of where these players are at. Players are getting better but are not fully aware of the sacrifices, mental toughness, energy and ability to adjust that is needed to be winners.
No that's a (bleep) excuse. On the defensive end, talent isn't the end all be all of effectiveness, it's all about scheme and effort. Right now we're seeing ineffective scheme and lackluster effort from certain players. The coaching staff needs to drill into the players heads what to do during certain situations and agaisnt certain players.
With the Spurs when TD and Kawhi sit, does their entire defense goto crap when their best two defenders are sitting? Nope, cuz they got a scheme where everyone knows where and how to rotate during breakdowns or against certain opposing players. We're simply not seeing much of that right now from our defense and thats why we get utterly annihilated in the 3rd when other teams make their adjustments once they see where we're getting lazy at on defense. Cuz teams aren't trying to bust our scheme (since we dont have one) so much as seeing how lazy our defenders are on defending certain plays.
Also our guards (and ESPECIALLY Jeremy Lin) needs to quit cheat helping the inside. He's gotten burned by his man on the perimeter shooting open 3s I dont understand why the staff hasnt made him wear a shock collar where if he leaves his man by more than 5 feet he gets the (bleep) shocked out of him. Our bigs need to man the (bleep) up an take their assignments and get their brains beaten out as humiliation for them to work harder, or we need to figure out a scheme to double but NOT from 1 pass away like Lin does with his (bleep) help. It's a nice sentiment to help, but until someone goes Shaq on our asses inside the guards need to stay on their man to prevent shooters from getting hot.
Our playcalls are so simple and obvious that I saw Sun's players on numerous occasions call it out themselves. Espcially the elbow plays (i see the Suns guards pointing at their own elbows), where they strong deny the elbow and thus stalling the crap out of the offense. I swear to god Scott needs to either mix up the playbook or use random words to signify different plays.
Disappointed that Lin didnt' do much PnR but it was nice to see him punish the Suns when they overplay by attacking seams and getting layups (but only when Suns bigs are out of position).
Defense, i just dont understand how our bigs are always so out of position, i mean for (bleep) sake, aren'tn the staff at least telling them to box out on shots and close out/hard hedge on the shooters.
How can the coaches make simple plays that one learns in high school like boxing out?
Every team know the plays of the other teams. Offense is responsible to knowing what the defense is allowing and doing the proper counters.
It is up to the bigs to call the schemes on D
Overall, each game is another confirmation of where these players are at. Players are getting better but are not fully aware of the sacrifices, mental toughness, energy and ability to adjust that is needed to be winners.
No that's a (bleep) excuse. On the defensive end, talent isn't the end all be all of effectiveness, it's all about scheme and effort. Right now we're seeing ineffective scheme and lackluster effort from certain players. The coaching staff needs to drill into the players heads what to do during certain situations and agaisnt certain players.
With the Spurs when TD and Kawhi sit, does their entire defense goto crap when their best two defenders are sitting? Nope, cuz they got a scheme where everyone knows where and how to rotate during breakdowns or against certain opposing players. We're simply not seeing much of that right now from our defense and thats why we get utterly annihilated in the 3rd when other teams make their adjustments once they see where we're getting lazy at on defense. Cuz teams aren't trying to bust our scheme (since we dont have one) so much as seeing how lazy our defenders are on defending certain plays.
Also our guards (and ESPECIALLY Jeremy Lin) needs to quit cheat helping the inside. He's gotten burned by his man on the perimeter shooting open 3s I dont understand why the staff hasnt made him wear a shock collar where if he leaves his man by more than 5 feet he gets the (bleep) shocked out of him. Our bigs need to man the (bleep) up an take their assignments and get their brains beaten out as humiliation for them to work harder, or we need to figure out a scheme to double but NOT from 1 pass away like Lin does with his (bleep) help. It's a nice sentiment to help, but until someone goes Shaq on our asses inside the guards need to stay on their man to prevent shooters from getting hot.
Suns scored tons of points in the paint last night as well.
Our playcalls are so simple and obvious that I saw Sun's players on numerous occasions call it out themselves. Espcially the elbow plays (i see the Suns guards pointing at their own elbows), where they strong deny the elbow and thus stalling the crap out of the offense. I swear to god Scott needs to either mix up the playbook or use random words to signify different plays.
Disappointed that Lin didnt' do much PnR but it was nice to see him punish the Suns when they overplay by attacking seams and getting layups (but only when Suns bigs are out of position).
Defense, i just dont understand how our bigs are always so out of position, i mean for (bleep) sake, aren'tn the staff at least telling them to box out on shots and close out/hard hedge on the shooters.
How can the coaches make simple plays that one learns in high school like boxing out?
Every team know the plays of the other teams. Offense is responsible to knowing what the defense is allowing and doing the proper counters.
It is up to the bigs to call the schemes on D
Overall, each game is another confirmation of where these players are at. Players are getting better but are not fully aware of the sacrifices, mental toughness, energy and ability to adjust that is needed to be winners.
No that's a (bleep) excuse. On the defensive end, talent isn't the end all be all of effectiveness, it's all about scheme and effort. Right now we're seeing ineffective scheme and lackluster effort from certain players. The coaching staff needs to drill into the players heads what to do during certain situations and agaisnt certain players.
With the Spurs when TD and Kawhi sit, does their entire defense goto crap when their best two defenders are sitting? Nope, cuz they got a scheme where everyone knows where and how to rotate during breakdowns or against certain opposing players. We're simply not seeing much of that right now from our defense and thats why we get utterly annihilated in the 3rd when other teams make their adjustments once they see where we're getting lazy at on defense. Cuz teams aren't trying to bust our scheme (since we dont have one) so much as seeing how lazy our defenders are on defending certain plays.
Also our guards (and ESPECIALLY Jeremy Lin) needs to quit cheat helping the inside. He's gotten burned by his man on the perimeter shooting open 3s I dont understand why the staff hasnt made him wear a shock collar where if he leaves his man by more than 5 feet he gets the (bleep) shocked out of him. Our bigs need to man the (bleep) up an take their assignments and get their brains beaten out as humiliation for them to work harder, or we need to figure out a scheme to double but NOT from 1 pass away like Lin does with his (bleep) help. It's a nice sentiment to help, but until someone goes Shaq on our asses inside the guards need to stay on their man to prevent shooters from getting hot.
Sounds like coaching to me. Shock collar works better on the bigs.
Joined: 23 Jun 2005 Posts: 8488 Location: The (real) short corner
Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 5:11 pm Post subject:
Slicer wrote:
A Mad Chinaman wrote:
Slicer wrote:
Our playcalls are so simple and obvious that I saw Sun's players on numerous occasions call it out themselves. Espcially the elbow plays (i see the Suns guards pointing at their own elbows), where they strong deny the elbow and thus stalling the crap out of the offense. I swear to god Scott needs to either mix up the playbook or use random words to signify different plays.
Disappointed that Lin didnt' do much PnR but it was nice to see him punish the Suns when they overplay by attacking seams and getting layups (but only when Suns bigs are out of position).
Defense, i just dont understand how our bigs are always so out of position, i mean for (bleep) sake, aren'tn the staff at least telling them to box out on shots and close out/hard hedge on the shooters.
How can the coaches make simple plays that one learns in high school like boxing out?
Every team know the plays of the other teams. Offense is responsible to knowing what the defense is allowing and doing the proper counters.
It is up to the bigs to call the schemes on D
Overall, each game is another confirmation of where these players are at. Players are getting better but are not fully aware of the sacrifices, mental toughness, energy and ability to adjust that is needed to be winners.
No that's a (bleep) excuse. On the defensive end, talent isn't the end all be all of effectiveness, it's all about scheme and effort. Right now we're seeing ineffective scheme and lackluster effort from certain players. The coaching staff needs to drill into the players heads what to do during certain situations and agaisnt certain players.
With the Spurs when TD and Kawhi sit, does their entire defense goto crap when their best two defenders are sitting? Nope, cuz they got a scheme where everyone knows where and how to rotate during breakdowns or against certain opposing players. We're simply not seeing much of that right now from our defense and thats why we get utterly annihilated in the 3rd when other teams make their adjustments once they see where we're getting lazy at on defense. Cuz teams aren't trying to bust our scheme (since we dont have one) so much as seeing how lazy our defenders are on defending certain plays.
Also our guards (and ESPECIALLY Jeremy Lin) needs to quit cheat helping the inside. He's gotten burned by his man on the perimeter shooting open 3s I dont understand why the staff hasnt made him wear a shock collar where if he leaves his man by more than 5 feet he gets the (bleep) shocked out of him. Our bigs need to man the (bleep) up an take their assignments and get their brains beaten out as humiliation for them to work harder, or we need to figure out a scheme to double but NOT from 1 pass away like Lin does with his (bleep) help. It's a nice sentiment to help, but until someone goes Shaq on our asses inside the guards need to stay on their man to prevent shooters from getting hot.
Unfortunately the team appears to have been told to help one pass away on the inside. They've been doing it all year, and although it was much worse before they changed the defense, it's appears like it's still in the scheme.
Joined: 23 Jun 2005 Posts: 8488 Location: The (real) short corner
Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 5:35 pm Post subject:
A Mad Chinaman wrote:
Slicer wrote:
Our playcalls are so simple and obvious that I saw Sun's players on numerous occasions call it out themselves. Espcially the elbow plays (i see the Suns guards pointing at their own elbows), where they strong deny the elbow and thus stalling the crap out of the offense. I swear to god Scott needs to either mix up the playbook or use random words to signify different plays.
Disappointed that Lin didnt' do much PnR but it was nice to see him punish the Suns when they overplay by attacking seams and getting layups (but only when Suns bigs are out of position).
Defense, i just dont understand how our bigs are always so out of position, i mean for (bleep) sake, aren'tn the staff at least telling them to box out on shots and close out/hard hedge on the shooters.
How can the coaches make simple plays that one learns in high school like boxing out?
Every team know the plays of the other teams. Offense is responsible to knowing what the defense is allowing and doing the proper counters.
It is up to the bigs to call the schemes on D
Overall, each game is another confirmation of where these players are at. Players are getting better but are not fully aware of the sacrifices, mental toughness, energy and ability to adjust that is needed to be winners.
Doesn't appear that they put in any counters for the elbow play. Nor do they really have a structured weak side action. Because they do the same thing in it over and over again, and they run it with the wrong personnel. The first mistake is having Wes come out of the corner. What the heck is he supposed to do with it if the result is getting the handoff from Hill (which it always is)? He can't create off the dribble. They should have Lin pass to Wes on the wing, and then go to the corner. Then he can come up and run a handoff / PnR with Hill. If the high post is really being denied, then they either should flow into a weak side action or have a counter strong side action. But they don't because they don't have any. This is the coach's responsibility, not the players.
As for the bigs not doing what they're supposed to- you let them know what they did wrong, and if they still do it, you sit them for someone else. But we never see anyone being held accountable during games for missing a rotation.
Last edited by fiendishoc on Tue Jan 20, 2015 5:56 pm; edited 1 time in total
Joined: 13 Jan 2002 Posts: 7922 Location: Lake Forest
Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 5:54 pm Post subject:
fiendishoc wrote:
A Mad Chinaman wrote:
Slicer wrote:
Our playcalls are so simple and obvious that I saw Sun's players on numerous occasions call it out themselves. Espcially the elbow plays (i see the Suns guards pointing at their own elbows), where they strong deny the elbow and thus stalling the crap out of the offense. I swear to god Scott needs to either mix up the playbook or use random words to signify different plays.
Disappointed that Lin didnt' do much PnR but it was nice to see him punish the Suns when they overplay by attacking seams and getting layups (but only when Suns bigs are out of position).
Defense, i just dont understand how our bigs are always so out of position, i mean for (bleep) sake, aren'tn the staff at least telling them to box out on shots and close out/hard hedge on the shooters.
How can the coaches make simple plays that one learns in high school like boxing out?
Every team know the plays of the other teams. Offense is responsible to knowing what the defense is allowing and doing the proper counters.
It is up to the bigs to call the schemes on D
Overall, each game is another confirmation of where these players are at. Players are getting better but are not fully aware of the sacrifices, mental toughness, energy and ability to adjust that is needed to be winners.
Doesn't appear that they put in any counters for the elbow play. Nor do they really have a structured weak side action. Because they do the same thing in it over and over again, and they run it with the wrong personnel. The first mistake is having Wes come out of the corner. What the heck is he supposed to do with it if the result is getting the handoff from Hill (which it always is)? He can't create off the dribble. They should have Lin pass to Wes on the wing, and then go to the corner. Then he can come up and run a handoff / PnR with Hill. If the high post is really being denied, then they either should flow into a weak side action or have a counter strong side action. But they don't because they don't have any. This is the coach's responsibility, not the players.
As for the bigs not doing what they're supposed to- you let them know what they did wrong, and if they still do it, you sit them for someone else. But we never see anyone being held accountable during games for stuff missing a rotation.
You have to recognize a blown rotation before you can sit someone for blowing a rotation. Never going to happen with this team.
Our playcalls are so simple and obvious that I saw Sun's players on numerous occasions call it out themselves. Espcially the elbow plays (i see the Suns guards pointing at their own elbows), where they strong deny the elbow and thus stalling the crap out of the offense. I swear to god Scott needs to either mix up the playbook or use random words to signify different plays.
Disappointed that Lin didnt' do much PnR but it was nice to see him punish the Suns when they overplay by attacking seams and getting layups (but only when Suns bigs are out of position).
Defense, i just dont understand how our bigs are always so out of position, i mean for (bleep) sake, aren'tn the staff at least telling them to box out on shots and close out/hard hedge on the shooters.
How can the coaches make simple plays that one learns in high school like boxing out?
Every team know the plays of the other teams. Offense is responsible to knowing what the defense is allowing and doing the proper counters.
It is up to the bigs to call the schemes on D
Overall, each game is another confirmation of where these players are at. Players are getting better but are not fully aware of the sacrifices, mental toughness, energy and ability to adjust that is needed to be winners.
Doesn't appear that they put in any counters for the elbow play. Nor do they really have a structured weak side action. Because they do the same thing in it over and over again, and they run it with the wrong personnel. The first mistake is having Wes come out of the corner. What the heck is he supposed to do with it if the result is getting the handoff from Hill (which it always is)? He can't create off the dribble. They should have Lin pass to Wes on the wing, and then go to the corner. Then he can come up and run a handoff / PnR with Hill. If the high post is really being denied, then they either should flow into a weak side action or have a counter strong side action. But they don't because they don't have any. This is the coach's responsibility, not the players.
As for the bigs not doing what they're supposed to- you let them know what they did wrong, and if they still do it, you sit them for someone else. But we never see anyone being held accountable during games for stuff missing a rotation.
You have to recognize a blown rotation before you can sit someone for blowing a rotation. Never going to happen with this team.
Before Black was on the roster, the only post player on the bench was Sacre - not much of a choice since RKelly and Boozer (some might disagree on this choice) can't truly be considered viable post players.
They appear to have counters because one can see some counters in the first half of games. In the second half, where opposing teams have made their adjustment and raised their intensity in the fourth quarter, the Lakers have rarely been able to respond without alone on the court
JHill and Boozer are the only ones at the high post because they are the only ones that have a jump/outside shot as part of their repertoire - albeit inconsistently. Unfortunately, they are nowhere near being good passers like Joakim Noah/Gasol brothers
Joined: 23 Jun 2005 Posts: 8488 Location: The (real) short corner
Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2015 8:51 am Post subject:
Having the PG come out of the corner rather than the SF is the easiest adjustment to make if you want more than just a long jumpshot out of it. Second, I don't recall them flowing into anything else if the high post is being denied. Usually, they'll either try and try, and then give up and reset. If they do get it in the high post, the only variety I see is that sometimes they don't hand it off and then the guard runs over to the weak side to come off a double screen there. The result of that action is also often a long 2, which is not good either.
I've posted this video several times before, but I figure it's relevant here:
Notice Rubio is the one coming out of the corner, not Brewer, who, like Wes, is a finisher not a creator. And then after about a minute in, you start to see counter actions when entries are being denied.
Joined: 13 Jan 2002 Posts: 7922 Location: Lake Forest
Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2015 9:07 am Post subject:
fiendishoc wrote:
Having the PG come out of the corner rather than the SF is the easiest adjustment to make if you want more than just a long jumpshot out of it. Second, I don't recall them flowing into anything else if the high post is being denied. Usually, they'll either try and try, and then give up and reset. If they do get it in the high post, the only variety I see is that sometimes they don't hand it off and then the guard runs over to the weak side to come off a double screen there. The result of that action is also often a long 2, which is not good either.
I've posted this video several times before, but I figure it's relevant here:
Notice Rubio is the one coming out of the corner, not Brewer, who, like Wes, is a finisher not a creator. And then after about a minute in, you start to see counter actions when entries are being denied.
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