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yinoma2001
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 Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 6:50 am Post subject: |
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| Voices wrote: | | lakersken80 wrote: | We don't need no stinking analytics.....
this season |
Players with talent win, not analytics. B ball has not changed, just look at the teams that win, L James and Cle are good because they have great talent. Let's see how good the Bulls are without their best player. And they still have talent, but not the superstar talent needed to win the title. |
You do realize Lebron, when in Miami, heavily used analytics to change his game. He took a lot of his unnecessary shots and was shown better spots on the floor to utilize his skills.
Also, "analytics" to me isn't some mystical mathematical formula. It's the business of information and learning how to interpret data in CONJUNCTION with normal things like traditional scouting. Of course you need superstar talent to win; I doubt people in the "analytics" field disagree with you.
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ocho
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| Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 7:14 am Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | Coaches like Scott talk about analytics like ignorant people talked about the "internet" 20 years ago |
Funny thing is, Byron is more than likely in the last head coaching position he's ever going to be offered. He thinks this information threatens his job. In actuality it could help him improve and become a better coach. |
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tyusedney1
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| Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 7:17 am Post subject: |
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| i guess there are still people going to blockbuster videos. look, analytics is the difference between lebron and melo. it's the difference between the spurs and the knicks. you don't see guys on the spurs chuck shots, ever. |
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the association
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| Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 7:44 am Post subject: |
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| vanexelent wrote: | | I can only imagine how Kobe would react if he had a coach like Eric Spolstra, pull him to the side and tell him to stop shooting certain shots because analytics indicated he was a poor shooter there, that lead to a higher number of opponents baskets. While a push over like Chris Bosh would simply accept his limitations from shooting on certain sides of the floor, my guess is that Kobe would do nothing but try to improve on that side of the floor and demand the ball there during every game. |
I cannot fathom that it took almost five full pages for someone to point out the painfully obvious ... especially at this point in his career, Kobe's essential mindset (which has been at the center of his particular brand of rare excellence over 15 years of his 19 year journey) and advanced analytics could never coexist for the Lakers. Of course, I have little doubt that we'll see an article at some point that proclaims that Kobe invented advanced analytics or that he was at the vanguard of its use ... and though many will bite, that article won't change the facts as they've unfolded over the years.
Over the past 15 years, Kobe has been nearly the antithesis of the player that utilized advanced analytics to his advantage. However, I don't think it's black-and-white in terms of where fault lies; I would imagine that it's very, very difficult to accept what the data bears out when you possess sheer supreme confidence in your abilities to rise above and impose your will on any aspect of the game (even when those abilities might abandon you at times and result in spectacular failure). Don't confuse the "I studied this guy and I studied that guy" narrative; that's just part of the "cerebral" image that has been cast for broad consumption since day 1 ...
To me, advanced analytics have value because they can help a user understand and act upon outcome information that stems from individual, lineup and roster efficiencies given various longitudinal and matchup considerations. Yeah, that or "I've got this; this next 28' contested fadeaway turnaround is going in because I've hit it before and I'll hit it again" ...
Given our 19 years getting to know him (more than 19 years for some of us), I don't think Kobe possesses the capacity to integrate most of the derivative information from an advanced analytics program into his game. So maybe there's little point in integrating an exhaustive AA program for part of a team, particularly when that part of the team isn't a focal point of your offense or defense ... |
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Richmond
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| Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 7:51 am Post subject: |
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Byron: "Analytics, Schmanalytics...look what happened to Goran Dragic in Rocky IV"
Reporter: "Coach, his name was Ivan Dra....never mind"
Byron: "head of the snake baby, head of the snake" |
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Iron Mamba
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Joined: 01 Mar 2012
Posts: 2139
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| Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 8:08 am Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | Voices wrote: | | Players with talent win, not analytics. B ball has not changed, just look at the teams that win, L James and Cle are good because they have great talent. Let's see how good the Bulls are without their best player. And they still have talent, but not the superstar talent needed to win the title. |
You do realize Lebron, when in Miami, heavily used analytics to change his game. He took a lot of his unnecessary shots and was shown better spots on the floor to utilize his skills.
Also, "analytics" to me isn't some mystical mathematical formula. It's the business of information and learning how to interpret data in CONJUNCTION with normal things like traditional scouting. Of course you need superstar talent to win; I doubt people in the "analytics" field disagree with you. |
Article on LeBron finally using analytics to work on his game for 2012 season:
https://hbr.org/2013/05/what-lebron-james-knows-about/
Results:
- MVP
- Finals MVP
- 1st NBA championship
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venturalakersfan
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| Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 8:34 am Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | Voices wrote: | | lakersken80 wrote: | We don't need no stinking analytics.....
this season |
Players with talent win, not analytics. B ball has not changed, just look at the teams that win, L James and Cle are good because they have great talent. Let's see how good the Bulls are without their best player. And they still have talent, but not the superstar talent needed to win the title. |
You do realize Lebron, when in Miami, heavily used analytics to change his game. He took a lot of his unnecessary shots and was shown better spots on the floor to utilize his skills.
Also, "analytics" to me isn't some mystical mathematical formula. It's the business of information and learning how to interpret data in CONJUNCTION with normal things like traditional scouting. Of course you need superstar talent to win; I doubt people in the "analytics" field disagree with you. |
And Shane Battier has come out and said that he used analytical analysis to determine the best way to guard Kobe. That the least effective shot in Kobe's arsenal was driving left and pulling up for a jumper. He always tried to force Kobe to drive left.
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venturalakersfan
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| Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 8:35 am Post subject: |
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| vanexelent wrote: | | I can only imagine how Kobe would react if he had a coach like Eric Spolstra, pull him to the side and tell him to stop shooting certain shots because analytics indicated he was a poor shooter there, that lead to a higher number of opponents baskets. While a push over like Chris Bosh would simply accept his limitations from shooting on certain sides of the floor, my guess is that Kobe would do nothing but try to improve on that side of the floor and demand the ball there during every game. |
Kobe has never been an efficient scorer, so maybe he should have been more involved with a analysis like that.
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RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023.
Last edited by venturalakersfan on Fri Feb 27, 2015 8:42 am; edited 1 time in total |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 8:39 am Post subject: |
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Mark Madsen comes out much better in these articles. Seems more in tune with the modern NBA. Scott hopefully out by 2016.
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LarryCoon
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| Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 8:47 am Post subject: |
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| dont_be_a_wuss wrote: | | Did RC use some kind of advanced metrics to pick out Ginobli, Parker, and Leonard, or did he use an eye test? I really don't know the history of how those guys were chosen. Generally curious. |
RC is actually an old-school coach (Kansas, LA Clippers), who uses the input from analytics in player evaluation, but relies a lot on his basketball IQ. But he & Pop use every advantage they can get with the squads they have, and THAT'S where they really put it to use. They were one of the first to use SportsVU (I already shared my funny story about that) and everything else. Their findings permeate directly into drills the team runs at practice. It has permeated the franchise.
When Mitch says people have been at Sloan, I wonder if he's referring to Jeanne, who was a panelist one year. They hand out a list of attendees every year (that's how we knew right away a couple years ago that the Lakers were the only team not represented), and while someone's affiliation could have been disguised, it's also the case that the top people in the field are pretty well known. If a top guy had tried registering incognito, a lot of people would have known. |
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 8:54 am Post subject: |
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| the association wrote: | | I cannot fathom that it took almost five full pages for someone to point out the painfully obvious ... especially at this point in his career, Kobe's essential mindset (which has been at the center of his particular brand of rare excellence over 15 years of his 19 year journey) and advanced analytics could never coexist for the Lakers. |
There have been a lot of threads about analytics in recent months, and this point has been made many times. Kobe is probably the last of his kind. If another kid came along today with comparable talent and skills, he would be guided into a different style of play -- more 3s, less long 2s, less contested shots, more ball movement.
There isn't a clear baseball analogy for Kobe, but Nolan Ryan is sort of analogous. He struck out more batters than anyone in history, and he has the lowest hits per 9 innings in history. But he also walked more batters than anyone in history, and he isn't among the career leaders in WHIP or ERA. He wound up with a career record that was barely over .500, and despite the standard excuse, he did not spend his career on bad teams.
Today, the analytics guys would be all over a guy like Ryan. While he did a lot of spectacular things, he was inefficient and often self-defeating. Something similar would happen to Kobe II. |
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Lakers#1Team
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| Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 9:13 am Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | the association wrote: | | I cannot fathom that it took almost five full pages for someone to point out the painfully obvious ... especially at this point in his career, Kobe's essential mindset (which has been at the center of his particular brand of rare excellence over 15 years of his 19 year journey) and advanced analytics could never coexist for the Lakers. |
There have been a lot of threads about analytics in recent months, and this point has been made many times. Kobe is probably the last of his kind. If another kid came along today with comparable talent and skills, he would be guided into a different style of play -- more 3s, less long 2s, less contested shots, more ball movement.
There isn't a clear baseball analogy for Kobe, but Nolan Ryan is sort of analogous. He struck out more batters than anyone in history, and he has the lowest hits per 9 innings in history. But he also walked more batters than anyone in history, and he isn't among the career leaders in WHIP or ERA. He wound up with a career record that was barely over .500, and despite the standard excuse, he did not spend his career on bad teams.
Today, the analytics guys would be all over a guy like Ryan. While he did a lot of spectacular things, he was inefficient and often self-defeating. Something similar would happen to Kobe II. |
Agree that the benefits of analytics are lost if the coach and/or player(s) can't come to grips with (or just ignore) the realities analytics presents to them. At least study and use the parts of it that makes sense for your team. |
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Voices
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| Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 9:20 am Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | Voices wrote: | | lakersken80 wrote: | We don't need no stinking analytics.....
this season |
Players with talent win, not analytics. B ball has not changed, just look at the teams that win, L James and Cle are good because they have great talent. Let's see how good the Bulls are without their best player. And they still have talent, but not the superstar talent needed to win the title. |
You do realize Lebron, when in Miami, heavily used analytics to change his game. He took a lot of his unnecessary shots and was shown better spots on the floor to utilize his skills.
Also, "analytics" to me isn't some mystical mathematical formula. It's the business of information and learning how to interpret data in CONJUNCTION with normal things like traditional scouting. Of course you need superstar talent to win; I doubt people in the "analytics" field disagree with you. |
Oh please, stop with analytics helped LJ, LJ has been a 50% plus shooter his whole career, astounding stats, not to mention his rebounding and assist totals that are way above average.
Just look at the teams that have won titles, they have the best players. Do you really think analytics was part of MJ and Magic's game? Do you think Bird and McHale used analytics?
The beautiful thing about b ball is that teamwork with great talented players just comes naturally, great players have great instincts for the game.
The college game is different, coaching and analytics can have an effect on the "team" because the talent and experience levels are not at the NBA level.
Are you saying that RW uses analytics? He is a basketball machine and is the reason that OKC is still in the running for the playoffs.
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ALTHOUGH HE STANDS 6 FEET 2 INCHES, JIM BUSS ATTENDED JOCKEY SCHOOL WHEN HE WAS 20. |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 9:23 am Post subject: |
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| Voices wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Voices wrote: | | lakersken80 wrote: | We don't need no stinking analytics.....
this season |
Players with talent win, not analytics. B ball has not changed, just look at the teams that win, L James and Cle are good because they have great talent. Let's see how good the Bulls are without their best player. And they still have talent, but not the superstar talent needed to win the title. |
You do realize Lebron, when in Miami, heavily used analytics to change his game. He took a lot of his unnecessary shots and was shown better spots on the floor to utilize his skills.
Also, "analytics" to me isn't some mystical mathematical formula. It's the business of information and learning how to interpret data in CONJUNCTION with normal things like traditional scouting. Of course you need superstar talent to win; I doubt people in the "analytics" field disagree with you. |
Oh please, stop with analytics helped LJ, LJ has been a 50% plus shooter his whole career, astounding stats, not to mention his rebounding and assist totals that are way above average.
Just look at the teams that have won titles, they have the best players. Do you really think analytics was part of MJ and Magic's game? Do you think Bird and McHale used analytics?
The beautiful thing about b ball is that teamwork with great talented players just comes naturally, great players have great instincts for the game.
The college game is different, coaching and analytics can have an effect on the "team" because the talent and experience levels are not at the NBA level.
Are you saying that RW uses analytics? He is a basketball machine and is the reason that OKC is still in the running for the playoffs. |
Whatever you want to believe. 
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LarryCoon
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| Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 9:33 am Post subject: |
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| Voices wrote: | | Are you saying that RW uses analytics? He is a basketball machine and is the reason that OKC is still in the running for the playoffs. |
Uh....let me just say that I'm pretty familiar with that front office, and you could not be any more wrong. |
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ocho
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| Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 9:42 am Post subject: |
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| Voices wrote: | | Are you saying that RW uses analytics? He is a basketball machine and is the reason that OKC is still in the running for the playoffs. |
It's a shame the term "analytics" exists, because it gives people an idea that it's something other than what it is: information. That's it. It doesn't replace scouting, or talent, or...anything. There isn't a single person working in the league that thinks "analytics" renders talent unnecessary. It's just information that helps explain what's happening on the floor. It isn't a religion and it isn't magic. Why wouldn't you want more information about what's happening in a basketball game? Why do people feel strangely threatened by having a deeper knowledge?
So to answer your question, does Westbrook use information when playing a basketball game? Yes. His coach and organization do too. |
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Lakers#1Team
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| Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 9:52 am Post subject: |
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| ^ Good way to frame it. So Byron doesn't want to use any outside information that contradicts his own perceptions... |
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Iandrewd
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| Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 9:55 am Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | vanexelent wrote: | | I can only imagine how Kobe would react if he had a coach like Eric Spolstra, pull him to the side and tell him to stop shooting certain shots because analytics indicated he was a poor shooter there, that lead to a higher number of opponents baskets. While a push over like Chris Bosh would simply accept his limitations from shooting on certain sides of the floor, my guess is that Kobe would do nothing but try to improve on that side of the floor and demand the ball there during every game. |
Kobe has never been an efficient scorer, so maybe he should have been more involved with a analysis like that. |
Not sure how you can suggest a player should have been more involved with something that wasn't really around for the majority of his development years. Also, Kobe is VERY good at getting to the FT line, one of the most efficient ways to score in basketball. Part of that skill probably comes from keeping the defender guessing about where he'll shoot.
Finally, Kobe has had a VERY good post game for a long time but hasn't ever really had the space to show it since he played with post-dominant players like Shaq and Pau. So, playing with guys that clog the lane forces a driving player to shoot farther away. Which basically would have made Kobe a three-point shooter (since mid-range isn't efficient) which has never been his strong suit. How many efficient wings do you see playing with a dominant, offensive minded center? Harden and Howard may come to mind but Howard hasn't been a dominant low-post guy since his Orlando days. |
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ocho
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| Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 9:57 am Post subject: |
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| Lakers#1Team wrote: | | ^ Good way to frame it. So Byron doesn't want to use any outside information that contradicts his own perceptions... |
And that's what drives me nuts about these "old school" guys who dismiss new information because they think it threatens their experience. It doesn't. People like Barkely are worried that "here come these nerds who never played trying to tell HIM about basketball!" If Scott weren't so insecure, he'd look for ANY edge to better prepare his team, exploit any matchup, and gameplan for an opponent. |
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the association
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Joined: 03 Feb 2015
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| Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 9:59 am Post subject: |
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| Voices wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Voices wrote: | | lakersken80 wrote: | We don't need no stinking analytics.....
this season |
Players with talent win, not analytics. B ball has not changed, just look at the teams that win, L James and Cle are good because they have great talent. Let's see how good the Bulls are without their best player. And they still have talent, but not the superstar talent needed to win the title. |
You do realize Lebron, when in Miami, heavily used analytics to change his game. He took a lot of his unnecessary shots and was shown better spots on the floor to utilize his skills.
Also, "analytics" to me isn't some mystical mathematical formula. It's the business of information and learning how to interpret data in CONJUNCTION with normal things like traditional scouting. Of course you need superstar talent to win; I doubt people in the "analytics" field disagree with you. |
Oh please, stop with analytics helped LJ, LJ has been a 50% plus shooter his whole career, astounding stats, not to mention his rebounding and assist totals that are way above average.
Just look at the teams that have won titles, they have the best players. Do you really think analytics was part of MJ and Magic's game? Do you think Bird and McHale used analytics?
The beautiful thing about b ball is that teamwork with great talented players just comes naturally, great players have great instincts for the game.
The college game is different, coaching and analytics can have an effect on the "team" because the talent and experience levels are not at the NBA level.
Are you saying that RW uses analytics? He is a basketball machine and is the reason that OKC is still in the running for the playoffs. |
2003, 2004, 2011 and 2014 (and perhaps even 2012) are recent examples of how misguided you are when you assert that, and I'm paraphrasing here, "the team with the best talent always prevails when it comes to title match-ups". The mental aspects of the game, which are often amplified by one's relative interest or disinterest in advanced analytics (as far as I'm concerned), are still very, very important factors in these discussions.
I also suspect there's a lot more going on behind the scenes, from a preparedness standpoint, with someone like RW than you might think ... and I completely disagree with the indirect assertion that Bird, Magic, McHale and MJ wouldn't have been voracious consumers of modern AA if it was available during their collective era. I think all four of those guys (incl. Jordan) achieved far beyond what their raw materials might have otherwise suggested was possible ... |
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tirebiter
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| Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 10:04 am Post subject: |
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| Voices wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Voices wrote: | | lakersken80 wrote: | We don't need no stinking analytics.....
this season |
Players with talent win, not analytics. B ball has not changed, just look at the teams that win, L James and Cle are good because they have great talent. Let's see how good the Bulls are without their best player. And they still have talent, but not the superstar talent needed to win the title. |
You do realize Lebron, when in Miami, heavily used analytics to change his game. He took a lot of his unnecessary shots and was shown better spots on the floor to utilize his skills.
Also, "analytics" to me isn't some mystical mathematical formula. It's the business of information and learning how to interpret data in CONJUNCTION with normal things like traditional scouting. Of course you need superstar talent to win; I doubt people in the "analytics" field disagree with you. |
Oh please, stop with analytics helped LJ, LJ has been a 50% plus shooter his whole career, astounding stats, not to mention his rebounding and assist totals that are way above average.
Just look at the teams that have won titles, they have the best players. Do you really think analytics was part of MJ and Magic's game? Do you think Bird and McHale used analytics?
The beautiful thing about b ball is that teamwork with great talented players just comes naturally, great players have great instincts for the game.
The college game is different, coaching and analytics can have an effect on the "team" because the talent and experience levels are not at the NBA level.
Are you saying that RW uses analytics? He is a basketball machine and is the reason that OKC is still in the running for the playoffs. |
RW could certainly use a little better understanding of his game from an analytical standpoint and improve his efficiency. he took 38 shots last night to get 38 points! don't you think his other teammates could combine to do better than 38 points on 38 shots?
he has limitless talent, just a baskeball machine, like you said. but even a machine could be tinkered to improve it's output and efficiency. no one is saying he should change his game, or that he should rely on analytics in order to change his game. but it can certainly be refined and improved upon. |
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Lakers#1Team
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| Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 10:07 am Post subject: |
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| ocho wrote: | | Lakers#1Team wrote: | | ^ Good way to frame it. So Byron doesn't want to use any outside information that contradicts his own perceptions... |
And that's what drives me nuts about these "old school" guys who dismiss new information because they think it threatens their experience. It doesn't. People like Barkely are worried that "here come these nerds who never played trying to tell HIM about basketball!" If Scott weren't so insecure, he'd look for ANY edge to better prepare his team, exploit any matchup, and gameplan for an opponent. |
With any luck, Madsen is "waiting in the wings" and will be ready for duty when called upon. |
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greenfrog
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| Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 10:18 am Post subject: |
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| Lakers#1Team wrote: | | ^ Good way to frame it. So Byron doesn't want to use any outside information that contradicts his own perceptions... |
Maybe he just isn't capable of understanding it. Go with watchya know... |
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Tark the Shark
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Joined: 07 May 2006
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| Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 10:22 am Post subject: |
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| The Lakers analytics suck because Jim takes player ratings from NBA 2K and NBA Live along with real box scores and puts them in Excel. |
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Lakers#1Team
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| Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 10:24 am Post subject: |
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| greenfrog wrote: | | Lakers#1Team wrote: | | ^ Good way to frame it. So Byron doesn't want to use any outside information that contradicts his own perceptions... |
Maybe he just isn't capable of understanding it. Go with watchya know... |
I think being "old school" should be more about your attitudes and behavior. The professionalism and work ethic. Not about stubbornly mandating a style of play, substitution patterns, etc., when information is out there concluding something different would be more effective. |
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