And then he remained a laker, point im making is that when a guy spends his entire 2 decade long career in one team he has a right to say that he doesnt bail on his team or whatever the quote was.
You're entitled to spin it however you want. Heck, some people were trying to spin it back in the summer of 2007.
And then he remained a laker, point im making is that when a guy spends his entire 2 decade long career in one team he has a right to say that he doesnt bail on his team or whatever the quote was.
You're entitled to spin it however you want. Heck, some people were trying to spin it back in the summer of 2007.
You are the one who is spining it, i dont know why though...
Obviously im not gonna change your mind and your not gonna change mine, so no point in disscusing it further.
I'm spinning it? You're defending Kobe's statement that it isn't his style to bail on a rebuilding team (or words to that effect) even though he tried to do just that in 2007. The Lakers just wouldn't give him the trade that he wanted. I'm not sure that you understand what "spin" means.
Last time I checked Kobe didn't spurn the Lakers and go ring chasing like Shaq did. No comparison.
Well, actually, that was precisely the point of what he did in 2007. He just didn't get the trade he wanted.
I don't fault Kobe or any other player who does that. This is a free country. If you aren't happy where you work -- even if you are being paid millions -- you have the right to press for a change. Kobe didn't handle the situation well, creating a media circus that lasted for months. I can forgive that, because star athletes tend to be a bit self-absorbed. But when he tells the media that he isn't the kind of guy who would bail on a rebuilding team (or whatever his exact words were), it makes me shake my head.
The fact is that he never bailed.
Also, my guess is he isnt the exact same person he was in 2007.
Your comments make me shake my head.
The fact is that he announced to the world that he would rather play on Pluto than be a Laker. After that, he used his no-trade clause as leverage to force a trade that suited his own interests. My guess is that he is exactly the same person he was in 2007, except older, physically broken down, and with a contract that no other team would touch with the proverbial ten foot pole. Shake your head all you want. It won't change anything.
And then he remained a laker, point im making is that when a guy spends his entire 2 decade long career in one team he has a right to say that he doesnt bail on his team or whatever the quote was.
"I don't bail on my team."
"Get a Bulls uniform fellas."
Lol, yeah right. But why do you look at it as an insult? Kobe had a right to leave if he wanted to. He seriously considered going to play for Donald Sterling and the Clippers because they had a much better roster at the time.
He remained a Laker in 2007 because he was pretty much stuck. He couldn't get himself into a situation anywhere else that was clearly better. He didn't stay because he was so loyal to the Lakers.
But you seem to think Kobe is being insulted. Should we think less of Paul Gasol because he left Memphis and LA?
Joined: 18 Apr 2004 Posts: 6339 Location: Virginia
Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 12:50 pm Post subject:
the association wrote:
kobeandgary wrote:
the association wrote:
kobeandgary wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
Rebuilding was the way to go. Dr Buss called his bluff and Kobe backtracked. It worked out great for us Laker fans.
don't really remember kobe bluffing or backtracking or Dr. Buss calling it, i remember Kobe being lied to by the front office and getting fed up with it, they finally owned up to there word and brought in talent and we of course went on to win two more rings.
How exactly was Kobe "lied to" by the FO? I'll most definitely look forward to your response, but I also have to establish from jump street that this statement seems to me like some really bizarre, mind-boggling revisionist nonsense. And infuriating a bit, too, considering the almost $17MM PER YEAR, on average, that Kobe has enjoyed from salary alone over the course of his 20 years of contract play. Really ...
What everyone outside the inner circle knows are the following details:
1. Phil wasn't offered a new contract, a fact that apparently satisfied both Phil and Kobe, as both had independently expressed a sincere disinterest in continuing their coach - player relationship at that time (as everyone learned through verified sources over time);
2. Preliminary contract negotiations were discontinued and O'Neal was ultimately traded to Miami, a fact that satisfied Kobe's rather unambiguous interests in moving out from whatever shadows he perceived himself to be in;
and
3. Kobe signed an almost $140MM contract the next day, yet another fact.
Therefore, this "lying" narrative is a real bone of contention for me (and I assume others) since it accomplishes very little other than to unjustly tarnish the reputation of Dr. Buss and the organization. If your "source materials" are self-serving statements made many years later by Kobe or anyone else, please save them as they are really meaningless.
I usually chalk it up to intellectual dishonesty or perhaps pathology of some kind when I see "Chucky Atkins, Smush Parker and Kwame Brown, blah blah blah" tossed around to excuse the disaster that we all had to suffer through from 2004 - 2007 (because I rarely seem to see the names Lamar Odom or Caron Butler when someone is bemoaning with excuses those horrific 2004 - 2007 seasons). And yeah, this particular brand of excuse peddling has become something of a pathetic meme over the years.
But lying to the guy? Is that how far we're willing to go now? He made his bed; when the time came to sleep in it (i.e., lead the team as "the man"), he found that he wasn't able to sleep comfortably (i.e., guide the team to a competitive level as the Lakers organization had grown accustomed to over the previous 5 - 8 years). Fortunately, the organization was able to position itself for success once again a few years later. But those three + preceding years? Not good ...
So where was the lying that you refer to? You don't recall the VERY public trade demands, and you don't recall the (now VERY verified) trade rumors, but you recall something that could only even be possible if you were Kobe, Rob Pelinka, Mitch or the late, great Dr. Buss and his children?
of course i remember Kobe demanding a trade, and yes he was lied to by the front office. They made certain promises to him that were not kept, if you don't remember that then that's cool.
I searched around briefly this AM and the only public records that exist to suggest that Kobe was lied to by the organization are unsubstantiated (and self-serving) accusations made by Kobe himself when he had his unseemly meltdown in 2007 ... his claims that ownership misled him to believe that it was prepared to do everything possible to win right away when they re-signed him in Summer 2004 AND that this was not their intent is ironic since Kobe apparently is the one who wasn't ready to execute against that plan ...
If anything, Kobe is the party to those negotiations who failed to deliver as promised ... Dr. Buss and his family have been unfathomably indulgent with Kobe over the years. But some feel perfectly justified in sullying professional reputations anyway with throwaway revisionist assertions that have no basis in fact ... I guess that makes failure seem a little more palatable for some fans ...
if Kobe hadn't lit that fire under them they never would have bothered to get Gasol, before Kobe threatened to be traded the front office was doing nothing with this team, they were putting a terrible product on the floor and seemed ok with it. The Lakers at that time seemed very content with the Kobe show and seemed to have no initiative to make any big moves. Thanks to Kobe we landed Gasol and two more rings.
Joined: 02 Jan 2011 Posts: 36081 Location: 502 Bad Gateway
Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 1:30 pm Post subject:
kobeandgary wrote:
the association wrote:
kobeandgary wrote:
the association wrote:
kobeandgary wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
Rebuilding was the way to go. Dr Buss called his bluff and Kobe backtracked. It worked out great for us Laker fans.
don't really remember kobe bluffing or backtracking or Dr. Buss calling it, i remember Kobe being lied to by the front office and getting fed up with it, they finally owned up to there word and brought in talent and we of course went on to win two more rings.
How exactly was Kobe "lied to" by the FO? I'll most definitely look forward to your response, but I also have to establish from jump street that this statement seems to me like some really bizarre, mind-boggling revisionist nonsense. And infuriating a bit, too, considering the almost $17MM PER YEAR, on average, that Kobe has enjoyed from salary alone over the course of his 20 years of contract play. Really ...
What everyone outside the inner circle knows are the following details:
1. Phil wasn't offered a new contract, a fact that apparently satisfied both Phil and Kobe, as both had independently expressed a sincere disinterest in continuing their coach - player relationship at that time (as everyone learned through verified sources over time);
2. Preliminary contract negotiations were discontinued and O'Neal was ultimately traded to Miami, a fact that satisfied Kobe's rather unambiguous interests in moving out from whatever shadows he perceived himself to be in;
and
3. Kobe signed an almost $140MM contract the next day, yet another fact.
Therefore, this "lying" narrative is a real bone of contention for me (and I assume others) since it accomplishes very little other than to unjustly tarnish the reputation of Dr. Buss and the organization. If your "source materials" are self-serving statements made many years later by Kobe or anyone else, please save them as they are really meaningless.
I usually chalk it up to intellectual dishonesty or perhaps pathology of some kind when I see "Chucky Atkins, Smush Parker and Kwame Brown, blah blah blah" tossed around to excuse the disaster that we all had to suffer through from 2004 - 2007 (because I rarely seem to see the names Lamar Odom or Caron Butler when someone is bemoaning with excuses those horrific 2004 - 2007 seasons). And yeah, this particular brand of excuse peddling has become something of a pathetic meme over the years.
But lying to the guy? Is that how far we're willing to go now? He made his bed; when the time came to sleep in it (i.e., lead the team as "the man"), he found that he wasn't able to sleep comfortably (i.e., guide the team to a competitive level as the Lakers organization had grown accustomed to over the previous 5 - 8 years). Fortunately, the organization was able to position itself for success once again a few years later. But those three + preceding years? Not good ...
So where was the lying that you refer to? You don't recall the VERY public trade demands, and you don't recall the (now VERY verified) trade rumors, but you recall something that could only even be possible if you were Kobe, Rob Pelinka, Mitch or the late, great Dr. Buss and his children?
of course i remember Kobe demanding a trade, and yes he was lied to by the front office. They made certain promises to him that were not kept, if you don't remember that then that's cool.
I searched around briefly this AM and the only public records that exist to suggest that Kobe was lied to by the organization are unsubstantiated (and self-serving) accusations made by Kobe himself when he had his unseemly meltdown in 2007 ... his claims that ownership misled him to believe that it was prepared to do everything possible to win right away when they re-signed him in Summer 2004 AND that this was not their intent is ironic since Kobe apparently is the one who wasn't ready to execute against that plan ...
If anything, Kobe is the party to those negotiations who failed to deliver as promised ... Dr. Buss and his family have been unfathomably indulgent with Kobe over the years. But some feel perfectly justified in sullying professional reputations anyway with throwaway revisionist assertions that have no basis in fact ... I guess that makes failure seem a little more palatable for some fans ...
if Kobe hadn't lit that fire under them they never would have bothered to get Gasol, before Kobe threatened to be traded the front office was doing nothing with this team, they were putting a terrible product on the floor and seemed ok with it. The Lakers at that time seemed very content with the Kobe show and seemed to have no initiative to make any big moves. Thanks to Kobe we landed Gasol and two more rings.
Rebuilding was the way to go. Dr Buss called his bluff and Kobe backtracked. It worked out great for us Laker fans.
don't really remember kobe bluffing or backtracking or Dr. Buss calling it, i remember Kobe being lied to by the front office and getting fed up with it, they finally owned up to there word and brought in talent and we of course went on to win two more rings.
How exactly was Kobe "lied to" by the FO? I'll most definitely look forward to your response, but I also have to establish from jump street that this statement seems to me like some really bizarre, mind-boggling revisionist nonsense. And infuriating a bit, too, considering the almost $17MM PER YEAR, on average, that Kobe has enjoyed from salary alone over the course of his 20 years of contract play. Really ...
What everyone outside the inner circle knows are the following details:
1. Phil wasn't offered a new contract, a fact that apparently satisfied both Phil and Kobe, as both had independently expressed a sincere disinterest in continuing their coach - player relationship at that time (as everyone learned through verified sources over time);
2. Preliminary contract negotiations were discontinued and O'Neal was ultimately traded to Miami, a fact that satisfied Kobe's rather unambiguous interests in moving out from whatever shadows he perceived himself to be in;
and
3. Kobe signed an almost $140MM contract the next day, yet another fact.
Therefore, this "lying" narrative is a real bone of contention for me (and I assume others) since it accomplishes very little other than to unjustly tarnish the reputation of Dr. Buss and the organization. If your "source materials" are self-serving statements made many years later by Kobe or anyone else, please save them as they are really meaningless.
I usually chalk it up to intellectual dishonesty or perhaps pathology of some kind when I see "Chucky Atkins, Smush Parker and Kwame Brown, blah blah blah" tossed around to excuse the disaster that we all had to suffer through from 2004 - 2007 (because I rarely seem to see the names Lamar Odom or Caron Butler when someone is bemoaning with excuses those horrific 2004 - 2007 seasons). And yeah, this particular brand of excuse peddling has become something of a pathetic meme over the years.
But lying to the guy? Is that how far we're willing to go now? He made his bed; when the time came to sleep in it (i.e., lead the team as "the man"), he found that he wasn't able to sleep comfortably (i.e., guide the team to a competitive level as the Lakers organization had grown accustomed to over the previous 5 - 8 years). Fortunately, the organization was able to position itself for success once again a few years later. But those three + preceding years? Not good ...
So where was the lying that you refer to? You don't recall the VERY public trade demands, and you don't recall the (now VERY verified) trade rumors, but you recall something that could only even be possible if you were Kobe, Rob Pelinka, Mitch or the late, great Dr. Buss and his children?
of course i remember Kobe demanding a trade, and yes he was lied to by the front office. They made certain promises to him that were not kept, if you don't remember that then that's cool.
I searched around briefly this AM and the only public records that exist to suggest that Kobe was lied to by the organization are unsubstantiated (and self-serving) accusations made by Kobe himself when he had his unseemly meltdown in 2007 ... his claims that ownership misled him to believe that it was prepared to do everything possible to win right away when they re-signed him in Summer 2004 AND that this was not their intent is ironic since Kobe apparently is the one who wasn't ready to execute against that plan ...
If anything, Kobe is the party to those negotiations who failed to deliver as promised ... Dr. Buss and his family have been unfathomably indulgent with Kobe over the years. But some feel perfectly justified in sullying professional reputations anyway with throwaway revisionist assertions that have no basis in fact ... I guess that makes failure seem a little more palatable for some fans ...
if Kobe hadn't lit that fire under them they never would have bothered to get Gasol, before Kobe threatened to be traded the front office was doing nothing with this team, they were putting a terrible product on the floor and seemed ok with it. The Lakers at that time seemed very content with the Kobe show and seemed to have no initiative to make any big moves. Thanks to Kobe we landed Gasol and two more rings.
I agree that Kobe's protocol breach likely contributed to the move to acquire Pau many months later; but I don't agree that the organization was content to wallow in failure. Nor do I agree that Kobe's outburst and demand to be traded to a loaded team already prepared to win is what unleashed some grand plan here.
Part of the backstory that's apparently overlooked (and that many refuse to acknowledge) is that Dr. Buss relied to the organization's detriment on Kobe's repeated assurances that he could lead the Lakers to the promised land without O'Neal, come hell or high water. That obviously didn't work out as planned. Kobe can attempt to re-write history for the rest of his days, but the fact remains that he insisted to anyone who would listen for many years leading up to the 2004 offseason that "I got this", and then he spent three years afterwards proving that he didn't ...
Understandably, the FO was mired in disbelief that they could have underestimated so badly O'Neal's impact on the team and overestimated Kobe's capacity as a leader to pick-up where the previous year's team left off ... the data was there to refute the proposition, but sizzle won out over steak.
And the organization didn't let O'Neal leave without some offset; Lamar, Caron and Brian Grant were the market value that could be had once the rest of the owners understood that Dr. Buss was going to let Phil walk and submit to an O'Neal firesale in an effort to appease Kobe. The rest was natural attrition in the form of retirement, Fisher signing elsewhere, etc.
The team went from eight straight WCSF or better outcomes, with three rings in four Finals appearances ... to a cringeworthy circus sideshow. I guess that hollow assault on the scoring column really rings the bell for some, but not me ... I would trade all of those individual accolades for another ring or two.
So like most of us, I sometimes let my mind wander (really, vector) into "what if" territory ... and it's a shame ... those five rings, though an amazing accomplishment, might have been 7 ...
Are you forgetting something? Like the fact that Jim Buss gave him the money on his contract? He didn't demand it. People are always talking about how Tim Duncan and Dirk took less, but the reasons they did was because they had faith in the front office to make the necessary moves to put the best product and a championship one at that. Buss has shown nothing to show that he could do the same.
Why should Kobe take less? He has no reason to when there is no reason to believe in this front office right now. This is the same FO that gave away Lamar Odom for peanuts. Yeah I get he demanded a trade, but he was also the reigning sixth man of the year so don't tell me they couldn't have gotten more than they did for him. They had numerous chances to get something for Pau Gasol and yet they allowed him to walk for nothing. They traded a boat load of picks for a near 40 year old point guard.
Last time I checked Kobe didn't spurn the Lakers and go ring chasing like Shaq did. No comparison.
Kobe certainly did get the money he wanted. That FO gave him sevrral optionson salary and how they would spend the rest to improve the team. Kobe chose more over less, giving the FO less instead of more.
They did? I haven't been keeping up, but I haven't heard that they presented another option, much less several for salary and team mix both. I thought they came to him with the one he took, and he happily/greedily/unsurprisingly/honorably/whatever accepted. I'm assuming you mean lower salary options, not higher, of course. Can you explain/source?
I'm spinning it? You're defending Kobe's statement that it isn't his style to bail on a rebuilding team (or words to that effect) even though he tried to do just that in 2007. The Lakers just wouldn't give him the trade that he wanted. I'm not sure that you understand what "spin" means.
Not to start a whole thing, but watching the show from the context I thought he was talking about right now today he wouldn't bail (putting aside that he probably had no viable options), not from when he started his career on, or 2007. I remember laughing when he said it, knowing the obvious 2007 reply (given his own words about the Detroit trade he nixed), thinking 'probably should have been clearer Kobe - gonna get it now'. I have no idea, but that was my impression. I take 2007 as a emotional outburst, and like another poster mentioned, never was worried he would leave, which might support this view. Maybe I just had faith in Jerry's cool head.
if Kobe hadn't lit that fire under them they never would have bothered to get Gasol, before Kobe threatened to be traded the front office was doing nothing with this team, they were putting a terrible product on the floor and seemed ok with it. The Lakers at that time seemed very content with the Kobe show and seemed to have no initiative to make any big moves. Thanks to Kobe we landed Gasol and two more rings.
You're talking about the same front office that traded away a bunch of picks for Steve Nash because they wanted to win now. If you're going to give Kobe all the credit for the Gasol trade, then maybe you should blame him for the situation the team is in now.
What really happened is Kobe was impatient (which is one thing that makes him similar to MJ; they both want to win NOW). He wanted to see moves being made. He wanted to see Bynum traded for Jason Kidd, which was nowhere near as popular of an idea as trading Kwame for Gasol. Why would those rumors exist if the front office was doing absolutely nothing? Kobe was angry because he thought that trade should have been made.
And it's nonsense that the front office was doing nothing. They hired Phil Jackson. They traded Caron Butler for Kwame. That was a bold move which blew up in their face. It's no wonder why the front office was cautious after that. If they made more moves in an effort to appease Kobe, they could have made another trade that was just as bad, or another Steve Nash trade. They could have traded Odom and Bynum for Jermaine O'Neal. They also signed Vladimir Radmanovic for $31 million to improve the offense. What was the point of that signing if the team was content with where it was?
Last edited by Steve007 on Tue Mar 03, 2015 3:50 pm; edited 1 time in total
Part of the backstory that's apparently overlooked (and that many refuse to acknowledge) is that Dr. Buss relied to the organization's detriment on Kobe's repeated assurances that he could lead the Lakers to the promised land without O'Neal, come hell or high water. That obviously didn't work out as planned. Kobe can attempt to re-write history for the rest of his days, but the fact remains that he insisted to anyone who would listen for many years leading up to the 2004 offseason that "I got this", and then he spent three years afterwards proving that he didn't ...
Honestly, I don't remember Kobe saying anything quite like that.
I think it is funny, when people down Kobe because of 2004 NBA finals, and then Detroit is willing to gut their team to get him, what a year or two later?
Joined: 14 Apr 2001 Posts: 144461 Location: The Gold Coast
Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 5:02 pm Post subject:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
I'm spinning it? You're defending Kobe's statement that it isn't his style to bail on a rebuilding team (or words to that effect) even though he tried to do just that in 2007. The Lakers just wouldn't give him the trade that he wanted. I'm not sure that you understand what "spin" means.
And I don't think Kobe ever wanted to leave the Lakers. It is like the Kevin Stallings thing, guys just sometimes get mad and say dumb clichés. Stallings never really wanted to kill his player, Kobe never really wanted to leave the Lakers. _________________ RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023.
Joined: 14 Apr 2001 Posts: 144461 Location: The Gold Coast
Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 5:05 pm Post subject:
kobeandgary wrote:
if Kobe hadn't lit that fire under them they never would have bothered to get Gasol, before Kobe threatened to be traded the front office was doing nothing with this team, they were putting a terrible product on the floor and seemed ok with it. The Lakers at that time seemed very content with the Kobe show and seemed to have no initiative to make any big moves. Thanks to Kobe we landed Gasol and two more rings.
That was some fire, it seems to have lasted for 5-6 months. More realistic, Bynum's injury lit the fire for them to get Gasol. And many ignore the fact that the team Kobe railed against was leading the West the day Bynum got hurt. So it was far from a terrible product. _________________ RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023.
Joined: 14 Apr 2001 Posts: 144461 Location: The Gold Coast
Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 5:08 pm Post subject:
focus wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
Lakers2015 wrote:
Are you forgetting something? Like the fact that Jim Buss gave him the money on his contract? He didn't demand it. People are always talking about how Tim Duncan and Dirk took less, but the reasons they did was because they had faith in the front office to make the necessary moves to put the best product and a championship one at that. Buss has shown nothing to show that he could do the same.
Why should Kobe take less? He has no reason to when there is no reason to believe in this front office right now. This is the same FO that gave away Lamar Odom for peanuts. Yeah I get he demanded a trade, but he was also the reigning sixth man of the year so don't tell me they couldn't have gotten more than they did for him. They had numerous chances to get something for Pau Gasol and yet they allowed him to walk for nothing. They traded a boat load of picks for a near 40 year old point guard.
Last time I checked Kobe didn't spurn the Lakers and go ring chasing like Shaq did. No comparison.
Kobe certainly did get the money he wanted. That FO gave him sevrral optionson salary and how they would spend the rest to improve the team. Kobe chose more over less, giving the FO less instead of more.
They did? I haven't been keeping up, but I haven't heard that they presented another option, much less several for salary and team mix both. I thought they came to him with the one he took, and he happily/greedily/unsurprisingly/honorably/whatever accepted. I'm assuming you mean lower salary options, not higher, of course. Can you explain/source?
That is not what was reported. It was reported there were lower salaries, but I never heard that the one he chose was the highest. It might have been or maybe not. I remember Ireland talking with someone from the FO regarding the subject after last season began. _________________ RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023.
It was hiring Phil that calmed Kobe down. When they hired Phil, he was more confident that the Lakers were about winning. And they were.
Ironically, Kobe and Phil were still thought to be on very bad terms at the time. But Kobe knew Phil would not tolerate any BS from the FO and Im sure he saw Phil as an ally.. After all, they both had a common goal. Win. Just win. Worked out fine.
Phil was coaching the team when he demanded the trade. He came back, coached Kobe for 2 seasons and then Kobe demanded the trade.
What calmed Kobe down was the early success of the Lakers in 07 due to the emergence of Andrew Bynum, who has a bad rep now as a slacker, but at that time I remember him as an extremely hard worker and then ultimately Pau Gasol. Phil obviously had something to do with all of this clicking, but it wasn't Phil who calmed him down.
That's right. Over the last seven years, I've found it fascinating to see people like the OP try to re-write history to make Kobe's actions defensible or even heroic. The reality is that Kobe got the chance to be the centerpiece of the team after the Shaq trade, got frustrated when the re-build took longer than he expected, demanded a trade, and then used his no-trade clause as a veto power over any trades that did not suit his personal tastes. He made a fool of himself, and thus we get the revisionist history.
Recently, I've been sort of amused by Kobe's ongoing efforts to control the discussion of his own legacy, the latest installment being Muse. Kobe is essentially trying to write his own obituary. Anyway, I laughed when Kobe told an interviewer that leaving the Lakers just wasn't his style, or whatever the exact words were. Yeah, right. In 2007, he didn't leave because he wanted to dictate the terms of the trade in his favor. In 2015, he isn't leaving because no one would take his contract, even if he hadn't gotten hurt.
Kobe is entitled to do whatever he wants with his career. But he can't erase the Pluto comment from history just because it's inconvenient for his narrative.
In hindsight, I have no problem with Kobe's actions, his talents were being wasted with a starting lineup of Smush/Kobe/Walton/Odom/Kwame...
At the time I was like "if he doesn't want to be in LA trade him." That said, like I said in hindsight, it probably made Mitch work overtime in getting the team back to contention.
I'm spinning it? You're defending Kobe's statement that it isn't his style to bail on a rebuilding team (or words to that effect) even though he tried to do just that in 2007. The Lakers just wouldn't give him the trade that he wanted. I'm not sure that you understand what "spin" means.
And I don't think Kobe ever wanted to leave the Lakers. It is like the Kevin Stallings thing, guys just sometimes get mad and say dumb clichés. Stallings never really wanted to kill his player, Kobe never really wanted to leave the Lakers.
I agree, don't think he really wanted to leave. I remember him getting really emotional about it on some radio show at the time. In fact I remember him saying specifically that he didn't want to leave, he just wanted to win.
Remember when 2008 playoffs began, after the last game of the reg. season, he said something like, I ain't working with butter knives here anymore.
In 2004, Kobe was exploring free agency and was strongly considering the Clippers. But Dr. Buss sat Kobe down and promised him that the Lakers would do everything to retool right away and win immediately. Kobe believed him and re-signed. 3 years go by, and the FO lead by Jim Buss does nothing to improve the team. In fact, the only move they make, trading Caron Butler for Kwame, makes the team worse. Meanwhile, Kobe is killing himself and playing out of his mind to lead the worst supporting cast ever assembled in the history of the NBA to the playoffs twice, winning 4 games, and coming within a SoDumb rebound away from upsetting the second seed Suns. All the while, the Lakers are making boat loads of money on Kobe's shoulders, while Dr. Buss is off playing poker, galavanting with hookers, and getting DUIs. Come 2007, Kobe has had enough and demands change or to be traded. This puts the lazy lakers FO into gear and brings Dr. Buss back to run the team and take back control from his useless son. The Lakers immediately replace cancerous Smush Parker w/ Derek Fisher, and soon after, make a trade for a athletic, defensive minded player in Ariza. They also start looking for trades to improve the team, and with a little assist from the Logo, are able to trade for Gasol at the deadline. This is the type of trade they weren't even looking to make in previous years.
So, all is well and good. Kobe, finally with some actual talent by his side, leads the Lakers to 3 more Finals, and 2 titles. He's the best player in the NBA, but making the same amount of money as Rashard Lewis, while the Lakers continue to make a fortune off of him. Eventually, the lakers reward him making him the highest paid player in the league. Jerry Buss, with his health deteriorating, decides to hand the reigns of the team back to his idiot son, and Phil Jackson retires. So Jim Buss has a championship caliber roster still in tact, and the option to replace Phil with Brian Shaw or Rick Adelman, both of which would run offensive systems like Phil did. But of course, he has always been insecure and jealous of Phil, and decides to remove anything in the organization even loosely connected to Phil. So what does he do....hires the absolutely incompetent Mike Clown as head coach. Well that fails miserably. So to his credit, he goes out and tries to get CP3, but ends up with Nash and Dwight....a solid recovery. So the lear choice would be to find a coach that could cater to the present (Kobe) and the future (Dwight). Someone like phil who was potentially interested, or you know just about anyone besides Mike Shamphony who has no idea what a post-up is and who caters to the 4th best player on the team who is 40 and is barely in our present, let alone future. He simultaneously alienates gasol and pushes him out the door, while failing to get anything for him in return. Shamphony proceeds to run Kobe into the grounf, resulting in a catastrophic injury that will rpove to curtail the end of kobe's career when he was still a top 3 player in the game, and having one of the best seasons of his career. So it's time for Kobe's extension...he is once again coming off one of the best seasons of his career and still a top 3 player in the NBA, dwight is gone, and the lakers have no legitimate plan to show kobe for how to improve the team if he takes a massive pay cut. So instead, they decide to placate him and reward him for all the glory and money he has brought them, and they present him with a 24 mil a year offer, which he accepts, understanding that thi would still leave a max slot open to improve the team.
It was hiring Phil that calmed Kobe down. When they hired Phil, he was more confident that the Lakers were about winning. And they were.
Ironically, Kobe and Phil were still thought to be on very bad terms at the time. But Kobe knew Phil would not tolerate any BS from the FO and Im sure he saw Phil as an ally.. After all, they both had a common goal. Win. Just win. Worked out fine.
Phil was coaching the team when he demanded the trade. He came back, coached Kobe for 2 seasons and then Kobe demanded the trade.
What calmed Kobe down was the early success of the Lakers in 07 due to the emergence of Andrew Bynum, who has a bad rep now as a slacker, but at that time I remember him as an extremely hard worker and then ultimately Pau Gasol. Phil obviously had something to do with all of this clicking, but it wasn't Phil who calmed him down.
That's right. Over the last seven years, I've found it fascinating to see people like the OP try to re-write history to make Kobe's actions defensible or even heroic. The reality is that Kobe got the chance to be the centerpiece of the team after the Shaq trade, got frustrated when the re-build took longer than he expected, demanded a trade, and then used his no-trade clause as a veto power over any trades that did not suit his personal tastes. He made a fool of himself, and thus we get the revisionist history.
Recently, I've been sort of amused by Kobe's ongoing efforts to control the discussion of his own legacy, the latest installment being Muse. Kobe is essentially trying to write his own obituary. Anyway, I laughed when Kobe told an interviewer that leaving the Lakers just wasn't his style, or whatever the exact words were. Yeah, right. In 2007, he didn't leave because he wanted to dictate the terms of the trade in his favor. In 2015, he isn't leaving because no one would take his contract, even if he hadn't gotten hurt.
Kobe is entitled to do whatever he wants with his career. But he can't erase the Pluto comment from history just because it's inconvenient for his narrative.
In hindsight, I have no problem with Kobe's actions, his talents were being wasted with a starting lineup of Smush/Kobe/Walton/Odom/Kwame...
At the time I was like "if he doesn't want to be in LA trade him." That said, like I said in hindsight, it probably made Mitch work overtime in getting the team back to contention.
Wouldn't Mitch have wasted a lot of time trying to trade Kobe? Mitch might have actually spent less time trying to make a good trade because of the trade demands, and not more time like people here are saying.
Are you forgetting something? Like the fact that Jim Buss gave him the money on his contract? He didn't demand it. People are always talking about how Tim Duncan and Dirk took less, but the reasons they did was because they had faith in the front office to make the necessary moves to put the best product and a championship one at that. Buss has shown nothing to show that he could do the same.
Why should Kobe take less? He has no reason to when there is no reason to believe in this front office right now. This is the same FO that gave away Lamar Odom for peanuts. Yeah I get he demanded a trade, but he was also the reigning sixth man of the year so don't tell me they couldn't have gotten more than they did for him. They had numerous chances to get something for Pau Gasol and yet they allowed him to walk for nothing. They traded a boat load of picks for a near 40 year old point guard.
Last time I checked Kobe didn't spurn the Lakers and go ring chasing like Shaq did. No comparison.
Kobe certainly did get the money he wanted. That FO gave him sevrral optionson salary and how they would spend the rest to improve the team. Kobe chose more over less, giving the FO less instead of more.
They did? I haven't been keeping up, but I haven't heard that they presented another option, much less several for salary and team mix both. I thought they came to him with the one he took, and he happily/greedily/unsurprisingly/honorably/whatever accepted. I'm assuming you mean lower salary options, not higher, of course. Can you explain/source?
That is not what was reported. It was reported there were lower salaries, but I never heard that the one he chose was the highest. It might have been or maybe not. I remember Ireland talking with someone from the FO regarding the subject after last season began.
I'm not in LA so I don't see Ireland, but I thought I heard/read repeatedly they came with one high salary option, he didn't negotiate and just took it, pretty mutually quick, so I'm surprised. Never heard of lower salaries actually being offered (or even other options), but I don't have LA media/TW etc.
Meanwhile, Kobe is killing himself and playing out of his mind to lead the worst supporting cast ever assembled in the history of the NBA to the playoffs twice.
I'm not convinced that it was worse than the supporting cast he has this year. The 2007 Lakers started 26-13 and actually looked pretty good until injuries destroyed the team (that team led the league in injuries). The 2006 team finished strong and had a realistic shot at the conference finals.
Another move I forgot about was the signing of Vlade Divac, who was a pretty good center. The 2006 team was supposed to have Kobe, Odom, Butler, and Vlade. That's four good players and it's no wonder why people thought they would be in the playoffs. It wasn't so much that the front office wasn't trying. They had bad luck with the moves they made. Vlade and Radmanovic got injured, and Kwame was a disappointment. If Kwame became a good player, it would have made a very big difference.
I will say this I would still have did that Kidd for Bynum trade. I dont think Byunm made that much of an impact on the 2008 finals run or even the 2009 team. Kidd on the other hand would prob have made those teams last beyond 2010 and less miles accured on kobe.
Last time I checked Kobe didn't spurn the Lakers and go ring chasing like Shaq did. No comparison.
Well, actually, that was precisely the point of what he did in 2007. He just didn't get the trade he wanted.
I don't fault Kobe or any other player who does that. This is a free country. If you aren't happy where you work -- even if you are being paid millions -- you have the right to press for a change. Kobe didn't handle the situation well, creating a media circus that lasted for months. I can forgive that, because star athletes tend to be a bit self-absorbed. But when he tells the media that he isn't the kind of guy who would bail on a rebuilding team (or whatever his exact words were), it makes me shake my head.
The fact is that he never bailed.
Also, my guess is he isnt the exact same person he was in 2007.
Your comments make me shake my head.
The fact is that he announced to the world that he would rather play on Pluto than be a Laker. After that, he used his no-trade clause as leverage to force a trade that suited his own interests. My guess is that he is exactly the same person he was in 2007, except older, physically broken down, and with a contract that no other team would touch with the proverbial ten foot pole. Shake your head all you want. It won't change anything.
And then he remained a laker, point im making is that when a guy spends his entire 2 decade long career in one team he has a right to say that he doesnt bail on his team or whatever the quote was.
"I don't bail on my team."
"Get a Bulls uniform fellas."
Lol, yeah right. But why do you look at it as an insult? Kobe had a right to leave if he wanted to. He seriously considered going to play for Donald Sterling and the Clippers because they had a much better roster at the time.
He remained a Laker in 2007 because he was pretty much stuck. He couldn't get himself into a situation anywhere else that was clearly better. He didn't stay because he was so loyal to the Lakers.
But you seem to think Kobe is being insulted. Should we think less of Paul Gasol because he left Memphis and LA?
Or maybe it was a ploy to get the Lakers off their arse. I enjoy reading commentary from strangers who have zero evidence of their "THIS IS WHAT HAPPEN" stories. A man frustrated because his team is equipped with Smush Parker and Luke Walton as starters for 2 years straight would tend to destroy a player who cares about winning. Isn't that what we want from our players? Want to win so bad they cause havoc? Or do we want KG who was in chill mode for 4 years losing game after game? Whole lotta contraDICKtory stuff going on out there. Hell, Lebron got flake for leaving Cleveland so he can WIN.
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