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| Better NBA Career? Kareem or Kobe? |
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79% |
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20% |
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| Total Votes : 117 |
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Batguano
Star Player
Joined: 19 Mar 2015
Posts: 2255
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 Posted: Sat Mar 21, 2015 9:55 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, Magic had the luxury of having multiple HOF teammates as well.
The only difference is that Magic was in the Western Conference, which was weak in the 80s, and all the other great teams of that era (Celtics, Pistons, 6ers) were all in the East.
The modern Western Conference has been murder since 2000 all throughout Kobe's career.
Magic also never had as shi-tty teams as the shi-ttiest teams that Kobe has had (the years he missed the playoffs).
The 2000's-era Spurs are just as formidable a foe as those legendary Bird-led Celtic teams. |
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Dave20
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Joined: 15 Jun 2013
Posts: 11333
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| Posted: Sat Mar 21, 2015 9:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Batguano wrote: | | An All-star big, yes. But not another Top 10/GOAT candidate (which neither Kareem nor Magic proved that they could win without) |
They played against stacked teams. Celtics, Pistons, Utah, and 76ers were great back then. |
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Sentient Meat
Franchise Player
Joined: 04 Jul 2014
Posts: 12978
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| Posted: Sat Mar 21, 2015 10:11 pm Post subject: |
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I think when Magic started playing they had 22 teams... by the time Kobe played there were 29 teams... in other words diluting the talent by adding 80-100 D-league scrubs.
For Kareem the difference was even more pronounced... 14 teams vs 29 teams!
Or you could also look at it this way... how much harder would it be to play today if they removed more than 50% of the players and you only played against the top 14 teams.
Yet Kareem in this more concentrated form of the NBA still shot 56% vs. Kobe's 45%. The early NBA would be the equivalent of playing only the non lottery teams every game. |
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FreakofNature
Star Player
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 9187
Location: Maui ...
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| Posted: Sat Mar 21, 2015 10:12 pm Post subject: |
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Kareem is GOAT....
Tier 1
Kareem
MJ
Tier 2
Kobe
Magic
Wilt
Tier 3
Bird
Shaq
Big O
Hakeem
Tier 4
Russell
West
Baylor
Bron
Kobe if he defies all logic, and can play another 2 years with the kind of success he would require from himself to continue and somehow, someway gets another ring to add to the 5 he has, well then I put him in tier one with Kareem and MJ. All based on results and pure talent....  |
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Dumhead
Star Player
Joined: 01 May 2006
Posts: 3286
Location: Low Post Rate
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| Posted: Sat Mar 21, 2015 10:21 pm Post subject: |
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A number of factors contribute to Cap being overlooked. He was not showy. He was a little awkward (still is). He wasn't polarizing - at least not in the same way as Kobe. And for some, I really think him converting to Islam early on made him less relatable. In those days it was not so much the kind of prejudice that exists because of associations with radical Islamists, but because it was kind of foreign, at least to many Americans. (Not saying this was the main issue, just one in a larger list).
By the numbers, Cap had the better career. I am a huge Kobe supporter. I love his approach to the game. I think Kobe has to be one of the most skilled players ever. He did more with less physical freak talent than the likes of others on the GOAT lists. And yes, he carried scrub teams. And yes, he should have won one more MVP. And yes, he was a much larger international star. But... Cap in addition to all the massive numbers, had that unblockable (or almost) and iconic shot. As a big man, to average as many assists as he did throughout his career...
The only player which give me pause with regard to the greatest NBA career over Cap is MJ. And even still, I might go with Cap.
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doughboy90650
Franchise Player
Joined: 20 Apr 2006
Posts: 15294
Location: Southern California
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| Posted: Sun Mar 22, 2015 1:23 am Post subject: |
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| Dave20 wrote: | | Batguano wrote: | | An All-star big, yes. But not another Top 10/GOAT candidate (which neither Kareem nor Magic proved that they could win without) |
They played against stacked teams. Celtics, Pistons, Utah, and 76ers were great back then. |
In the eastern conference they were stacked. In the entire decade of the 80s, only one squad won more than 60 games in the western conference - the entire decade - the Lakers. Our boys practically had a freeway to the finals every year. Out east? One year the Sixers, Bucks and Celtics all had 60 wins. Poor Bucks were always the team on the outside looking in. One year 59 wins got them a 2 or 3 seed.
Hell, there were a couple years where that Lakers were the only team in the west with 50 wins and that's not just from teams beating up on each other. |
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KobeBryantCliffordBrown
Star Player
Joined: 28 Apr 2008
Posts: 6429
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| Posted: Sun Mar 22, 2015 4:00 am Post subject: |
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| the association wrote: | | KobeBryantCliffordBrown wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | LakerEric wrote: | | Kareem by far. This is an insult to even ask IMO |
While I agree with Kareem, I disagree that it is an insult. Kobe definitely is in that discussion. |
Exactly. Kobe's resume is less impressive than that of KAJ, but it's not like a Kobe to Ray Allen comparison. In fact, If you look at rings, stats, all NBA teams, All Defense teams, longevity, MVP's and all of it, Only KAJ, Kobe, TD and KD are in the argument. In that order as well IMO. |
I know this is a typo, but who did you intend in that last slot? |
oops.....KG!
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governator
Retired Number
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
Posts: 25076
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| Posted: Sun Mar 22, 2015 7:23 am Post subject: |
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| FreakofNature wrote: | Kareem is GOAT....
Tier 1
Kareem
MJ
Tier 2
Kobe
Magic
Wilt
Tier 3
Bird
Shaq
Big O
Hakeem
Tier 4
Russell
West
Baylor
Bron
Kobe if he defies all logic, and can play another 2 years with the kind of success he would require from himself to continue and somehow, someway gets another ring to add to the 5 he has, well then I put him in tier one with Kareem and MJ. All based on results and pure talent.... |
this looks about right
Although I would put Duncan and LeBron with Shaq/Hakeem |
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Aeneas Hunter
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Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 31763
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| Posted: Sun Mar 22, 2015 7:34 am Post subject: |
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| Dumhead wrote: | | A number of factors contribute to Cap being overlooked. He was not showy. He was a little awkward (still is). He wasn't polarizing - at least not in the same way as Kobe. And for some, I really think him converting to Islam early on made him less relatable. In those days it was not so much the kind of prejudice that exists because of associations with radical Islamists, but because it was kind of foreign, at least to many Americans. (Not saying this was the main issue, just one in a larger list). |
Eh. Let's be honest. Kareem had a difficult personality. He never got along with the media, and he had a prickly relationship with just about everyone. There were a few attempts to humanize him -- the Airplane! role, the Nestles Crunch commercial, and a couple others -- but they weren't successful. Just the same, those attempts are memorable to folks of my age bracket because it was so rare for Kareem to make an effort to let us relate to him. For the most part, he wanted to keep us at a safe distance. |
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Dave20
Franchise Player
Joined: 15 Jun 2013
Posts: 11333
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| Posted: Sun Mar 22, 2015 7:44 am Post subject: |
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This is how I have them ranked.
Tier 1
Jordan
Kareem
Russell
Tier 2
Magic
Bird
Tier 3
Wilt
Kobe
Shaq
Duncan
Tier 4
Lebron
Hakeem |
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Batguano
Star Player
Joined: 19 Mar 2015
Posts: 2255
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| Posted: Sun Mar 22, 2015 8:03 am Post subject: |
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| Dave20 wrote: | This is how I have them ranked.
Tier 1
Jordan
Kareem
Russell
Tier 2
Magic
Bird
Tier 3
Wilt
Kobe
Shaq
Duncan
Tier 4
Lebron
Hakeem |
Magic AND Bird a whole tier above Kobe?
Come on now...
Talk about overrating old-school players.
And an insult to Kobe to put him in the same tier as Wilt, who only managed to win 2 rings his entire career. Wilt is closer to the LeBron tier. |
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Dave20
Franchise Player
Joined: 15 Jun 2013
Posts: 11333
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| Posted: Sun Mar 22, 2015 9:22 am Post subject: |
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It's not all about titles if that was the case then Shaq would be ahead of Kobe because he was the best player during the 3peat. It wasn't Wilt's fault that they loss, he avg 25 pts and 25 rebs in the playoffs.
It's a combination of how efficient and great the player was during his era as well as accolades. Magic and Bird were both super efficient and changed the NBA. Kobe is the greatest of this era but sometimes people overrate him. At times Kobe was selfish and wasn't a good teammate, that also plays a role in the discussion. Magic was loved by everyone, even his opponents. |
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the association
Star Player
Joined: 03 Feb 2015
Posts: 1982
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| Posted: Sun Mar 22, 2015 9:26 am Post subject: |
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| Batguano wrote: | | Dave20 wrote: | This is how I have them ranked.
Tier 1
Jordan
Kareem
Russell
Tier 2
Magic
Bird
Tier 3
Wilt
Kobe
Shaq
Duncan
Tier 4
Lebron
Hakeem |
Magic AND Bird a whole tier above Kobe?
Come on now...
Talk about overrating old-school players.
And an insult to Kobe to put him in the same tier as Wilt, who only managed to win 2 rings his entire career. Wilt is closer to the LeBron tier. |
To suggest that ranking Wilt and Kobe in the same tier is somehow, some way an insult to Kobe, I'm going to assume that you're either a child, that you're trolling, or that you suffered a terribly-debilitating stroke in the not-too-distant past ... because in the inimitable words of the legendary John McEnroe, "excuse me? look, you can't be serious, man! you cannot be serious!" ...
Frankly, most serious, informed fans and experts have Wilt ahead of Kobe in the rankings. And incidentally, many would consider it an insult to Wilt to include Kobe in his tier.
Basketball has changed a lot in 40 years, but not enough for people to make indefensibly outlandish statements like yours ...
Last edited by the association on Sun Mar 22, 2015 9:27 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Lakers2015
Star Player
Joined: 16 Feb 2015
Posts: 2315
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| Posted: Sun Mar 22, 2015 9:26 am Post subject: |
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| Batguano wrote: | | Dave20 wrote: | This is how I have them ranked.
Tier 1
Jordan
Kareem
Russell
Tier 2
Magic
Bird
Tier 3
Wilt
Kobe
Shaq
Duncan
Tier 4
Lebron
Hakeem |
Magic AND Bird a whole tier above Kobe?
Come on now...
Talk about overrating old-school players.
And an insult to Kobe to put him in the same tier as Wilt, who only managed to win 2 rings his entire career. Wilt is closer to the LeBron tier. |
Agreed. It's an insult to put Russell or Wilt over Kobe. The guy played it a watered down era and with two/three Hall of Famers. Sure fire guys. What sure fire hall of famer other than Shaq has Kobe played with?
Pau may get in someday, but he's not a first ballot guy.
People overrate him because of all the championships, but this is a team sport and he didn't win them in a tough era like the 80's, 90's, or early 2000's. If you replaced Kobe on those Celtic teams they probably win two or three more than Russell did.
Kobe isn't as good as Jordan of Kareem, but you can easily make the case he's right behind them. |
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the association
Star Player
Joined: 03 Feb 2015
Posts: 1982
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| Posted: Sun Mar 22, 2015 9:34 am Post subject: |
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| Lakers2015 wrote: | | Batguano wrote: | | Dave20 wrote: | This is how I have them ranked.
Tier 1
Jordan
Kareem
Russell
Tier 2
Magic
Bird
Tier 3
Wilt
Kobe
Shaq
Duncan
Tier 4
Lebron
Hakeem |
Magic AND Bird a whole tier above Kobe?
Come on now...
Talk about overrating old-school players.
And an insult to Kobe to put him in the same tier as Wilt, who only managed to win 2 rings his entire career. Wilt is closer to the LeBron tier. |
Agreed. It's an insult to put Russell or Wilt over Kobe. The guy played it a watered down era and with two/three Hall of Famers. Sure fire guys. What sure fire hall of famer other than Shaq has Kobe played with?
Pau may get in someday, but he's not a first ballot guy.
People overrate him because of all the championships, but this is a team sport and he didn't win them in a tough era like the 80's, 90's, or early 2000's. If you replaced Kobe on those Celtic teams they probably win two or three more than Russell did.
Kobe isn't as good as Jordan of Kareem, but you can easily make the case he's right behind them. |
Bill Russell won 11 rings in 13 seasons. So according to your logic, Kobe would have been a perfect 13 rings for 13 seasons in the 1950s - 1960s? (or I guess 14 rings in 13 seasons, as you noted for the outer limit of what he could have accomplished in that "watered-down" era) ...
OK ... |
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RhodyRay
Star Player
Joined: 13 Apr 2001
Posts: 5470
Location: A room with a view!
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| Posted: Sun Mar 22, 2015 9:37 am Post subject: |
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If I was starting a team out of all the players who ever played in the NBA the first player I would take would be Magic. Nobody like him except the Big O! Kareem is without a doubt in the GOAT category. Kobe is great but I would pick Kareem over him. Kobe was a volume shooter with a 45% FG career shooting % while Kareem was at 56% FG. Kobe without a doubt could and would shoot from anywhere on the court but NOBODY could stop Kareem's skyhook! I myself don't believe there is a greatest player ever - hard to account for players you have never seen play, different rules, amount of teams in league, etc.
I do believe in the concept of who would be the first player I would choose to start a team and that player for me would be Magic Johnson.
Centers: Kareem, Chamberlain, Russell, Shaquille, Akeem
PF: Duncan, Bird, Malone, McHale
SF: Pippen, Bird, Dr. J, Worthy, Nique, Baylor, LBJ
SG: Jordan, Kobe, West
PG: Magic, Oscar, Cousy, Stockton, Nash
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the association
Star Player
Joined: 03 Feb 2015
Posts: 1982
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| Posted: Sun Mar 22, 2015 9:46 am Post subject: |
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| RhodyRay wrote: | If I was starting a team out of all the players who ever played in the NBA the first player I would take would be Magic. Nobody like him except the Big O! Kareem is without a doubt in the GOAT category. Kobe is great but I would pick Kareem over him. Kobe was a volume shooter with a 45% FG career shooting % while Kareem was at 56% FG. Kobe without a doubt could and would shoot from anywhere on the court but NOBODY could stop Kareem's skyhook! I myself don't believe their being A greatest player ever - hard to account for players you have never seen play, different rules, amount of teams in league, etc.
I do believe in the concept of who would be the first player I would choose to start a team and that player for me would be Magic Johnson.
Centers: Kareem, Chamberlain, Russell, Shaquille, Akeem
PF: Duncan, Bird, Malone, McHale
SF: Pippen, Bird, Dr. J, Worthy, Nique, Baylor
SG: Jordan, Kobe, West
PG: Magic, Oscar, Cousy, Stockton, Nash |
David Robinson, Kevin Garnett, Charles Barkley, Dirk Nowitzki, LeBron James, Isaiah Thomas and Jason Kidd are just a few of the deserving names that your list overlooks ...
I agree that comparing eras is extremely challenging, and I would start my team with Magic, too, but excluding Kevin Garnett (for someone like Kevin McHale) or LeBron James (for someone like Dominique Wilkins) seems errant to me ... |
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RhodyRay
Star Player
Joined: 13 Apr 2001
Posts: 5470
Location: A room with a view!
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| Posted: Sun Mar 22, 2015 11:11 am Post subject: |
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List was not intended to exclude- just goes to my point about naming any one player GOAT. It is fun to do but very subjective and hard to do. I still would start my team with Magic as first player selected.
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Let them HATE so long as they FEAR! |
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shaq3234
Rookie
Joined: 15 Apr 2014
Posts: 15
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| Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 7:27 am Post subject: |
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Wait, this is actaully a discussion? lol
Kobe is a Top 10 player all-time, not a GOAT candidate ala Kareem. |
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vanexelent
Retired Number
Joined: 17 May 2005
Posts: 30081
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| Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 7:42 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | The 2000's-era Spurs are just as formidable a foe as those legendary Bird-led Celtic team |
I can't agree with this. The 80's Lakers & Celtics are pretty much the best squads ever. |
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LakersInFour
Star Player
Joined: 16 Apr 2001
Posts: 6725
Location: New Mexico
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| Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 8:07 am Post subject: |
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I love Kobe, think he is better than Jordan, and will go to Temecula to prove it. But he ain't better than Kareem, who is more than just the greatest of all time, he is The Cap.
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activeverb
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Joined: 17 Jun 2006
Posts: 37470
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| Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 10:16 am Post subject: |
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| Sentient Meat wrote: | I think when Magic started playing they had 22 teams... by the time Kobe played there were 29 teams... in other words diluting the talent by adding 80-100 D-league scrubs.
For Kareem the difference was even more pronounced... 14 teams vs 29 teams!
Or you could also look at it this way... how much harder would it be to play today if they removed more than 50% of the players and you only played against the top 14 teams.
Yet Kareem in this more concentrated form of the NBA still shot 56% vs. Kobe's 45%. The early NBA would be the equivalent of playing only the non lottery teams every game. |
You're overlooking a couple of things.
First, the number of foreign players in the NBA has increased dramatically. There were 101 from 37 countries on opening rosters this year. In 90-91, there were only 21 international players -- literally a whole world of talent is available to the NBA that was not available before.
Second, world populations have grown. The U.S. population has grown about 10% from Magic's day to Kobe's day. If you assume that the percentage of people with NBA level talent stays constant, U.S. population growth alone would be enough to fill two of the 7 teams that were added between Magic and Kobe's time.
So it's not like the NBA has added teams over 35 years while having a stagnant talent pool to fill those teams. |
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activeverb
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Joined: 17 Jun 2006
Posts: 37470
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| Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 10:19 am Post subject: |
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| vanexelent wrote: | | Quote: | | The 2000's-era Spurs are just as formidable a foe as those legendary Bird-led Celtic team |
I can't agree with this. The 80's Lakers & Celtics are pretty much the best squads ever. |
I agree with you. But that isn't a case of a deeper talent pool. The conditions of that era made it easier to build super teams, so more of the league's total talent was concentrated on fewer teams than today. |
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activeverb
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Joined: 17 Jun 2006
Posts: 37470
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| Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 2:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Batguano wrote: | Yes, Magic had the luxury of having multiple HOF teammates as well.
The only difference is that Magic was in the Western Conference, which was weak in the 80s, and all the other great teams of that era (Celtics, Pistons, 6ers) were all in the East.
The modern Western Conference has been murder since 2000 all throughout Kobe's career.
Magic also never had as shi-tty teams as the shi-ttiest teams that Kobe has had (the years he missed the playoffs).
The 2000's-era Spurs are just as formidable a foe as those legendary Bird-led Celtic teams. |
It's hard to make an apples-to-apples comparison
Magic's teams were stacked with Hall of Famers. But his biggest opponents -- the Celtics and 76ers -- were stacked with Hall of Famers too.
Magic hit his toughest opponents in the finals; Kobe hit is in the Western conference playoffs.
Who had it tougher between Kobe and Magic when you factor in the strength of the opponents and the quality of their teammates?
Heck if I know. You could argue that one in circles for a million years and never reach a consensus.
And yes Magic never played with crappy teammates. But that may be a factor of his simply having a shorter career. Which also meant he had less time to accomplishment stuff.
And you could argue that Kobe's lousy teammate period was beneficial to his career, because it gave him the opportunity to go on some historical scoring binges that probably wouldn't have happened if he shared the ball with better players.
So none of this stuff is open and shut. It can be interpreted a lot of ways. |
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