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Lakerpark Star Player
Joined: 09 Nov 2002 Posts: 2117
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Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 6:41 am Post subject: Wills versus Skills |
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Hi Everyone,
I know the opinion is often divided about many players, some say they are trash and others see potential. Sometimes I wonder if some of these players are just "goofing off" because they are in a bad situation or perhaps playing for themselves because they are playing for their next contract.
How much of a players' performance is related to just not trying hard because "it doesn't matter" or "I gotta get mine".
Here are a couple examples off the top of my head:
1. Jordan Hill - We've seen the high energy, hustling, rebounding machine...one that came in off the bench and dominated several seasons ago against a powerhouse OKC team. We've seen him develop his offensive skills many fold. Was he playing out of position at center? I think he can still improve his shooting accuracy. Some people say he plays lazy.
Could being in the right situation help him put his game together: hustle, rebounding and scoring? Would it take a good coach to convince him to put it all together, like how Doc Rivers set out to make D'andre Jordan a dominant big man?
2. Wayne Ellington - We've seen him get hot from the perimeter. We've seen him make an occasional nice pass. But we've also seen the over dribbling, ball hog that freezes out Jordan Clarkson. Could being in the right situation teach him to not dribble so much and shoot the open shot or pass it right away to the next guy? Many say he was playing for his next contract, but what team would want a ball hog? BScott should have benched him for not passing the ball.
3. Rajon Rondo - Could he just be dogging it? Playing on bad teams, with bad teammates and bad coaches....I know he has had some major injuries, has he had time to recover from them or is his athleticism forever gone? If put in the right situation with the right team and the right coach, could we see that great defense, penetration, rebounding and passing? And I don't know what's with the 30% freethrowing!
So do some of these players just lose their skills or do they lose their will to succeed? Could they put it all together again and be productive Lakers? |
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Don Draper Retired Number
Joined: 21 Feb 2008 Posts: 28422 Location: LA --> Bay Area
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Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 7:27 am Post subject: |
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If JHill couldn't shake his laziness off playing as the "best" player on a depleted team while making $10 million during a contract year, he's never going to get it up again. |
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Lakerpark Star Player
Joined: 09 Nov 2002 Posts: 2117
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Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 7:56 am Post subject: |
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Don Draper wrote: | If JHill couldn't shake his laziness off playing as the "best" player on a depleted team while making $10 million during a contract year, he's never going to get it up again. |
I forget, was Phil Jackson still here when Jordan Hill arrived?
I wonder if a GOOD coach could whip him into shape. You would think a no nonsense type of coach like Byron would try. He rode Jeremy Lin so hard, why didn't he ride Jordan Hill? Bench him if he didn't move the ball more, set screens, roll to the basket and hustle.
I would hope people would at least admit that Jordan does have some skills. And like I said, he will improve in his shooting accuracy if he keeps practicing during the offseason. If he puts it all together and keeps working he could be a really good bench guy...but I know, his contract is too expensive. |
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Don Draper Retired Number
Joined: 21 Feb 2008 Posts: 28422 Location: LA --> Bay Area
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Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 8:01 am Post subject: |
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Lakerpark wrote: | Don Draper wrote: | If JHill couldn't shake his laziness off playing as the "best" player on a depleted team while making $10 million during a contract year, he's never going to get it up again. |
I forget, was Phil Jackson still here when Jordan Hill arrived?
I wonder if a GOOD coach could whip him into shape. You would think a no nonsense type of coach like Byron would try. He rode Jeremy Lin so hard, why didn't he ride Jordan Hill? Bench him if he didn't move the ball more, set screens, roll to the basket and hustle.
I would hope people would at least admit that Jordan does have some skills. And like I said, he will improve in his shooting accuracy if he keeps practicing during the offseason. If he puts it all together and keeps working he could be a really good bench guy...but I know, his contract is too expensive. |
He got his shot under Mike Brown. At the time he was seen as a lotto bust, so that might have motivated him then. |
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Lakerpark Star Player
Joined: 09 Nov 2002 Posts: 2117
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Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 8:23 am Post subject: |
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That's my point, the talent is there....but the Lakers need someone to get it (effort) out of him consistently and in a way to benefit the team.
I wonder who the best coach known for that is? Maybe Popavich....If the Lakers trade him it would suck to see the Spurs pick him up and he turns into a steady double double PF off the bench. |
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greenfrog Retired Number
Joined: 02 Jan 2011 Posts: 36081 Location: 502 Bad Gateway
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Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 8:41 am Post subject: |
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You can't coach motivation and heart. You either have it or you don't. |
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Hector the Pup Retired Number
Joined: 25 Jul 2002 Posts: 35946 Location: L.A.
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Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 8:42 am Post subject: |
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Lakerpark wrote: | That's my point, the talent is there....but the Lakers need someone to get it (effort) out of him consistently and in a way to benefit the team.
I wonder who the best coach known for that is? Maybe Popavich....If the Lakers trade him it would suck to see the Spurs pick him up and he turns into a steady double double PF off the bench. |
Some players just never get it. The list of guys who had the talent to be far more successful than they ever were is a very long one, and that's just the ones that have managed to stick around in the league for a few years. Add in the ones who washed out fast never to be heard from again and it gets much longer. |
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Lakerpark Star Player
Joined: 09 Nov 2002 Posts: 2117
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Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 9:25 am Post subject: |
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Now I don't know why I am defending Jordan Hill so much....Maybe I just like rebounders.....my favorite Laker has always been Kermit Washington.....maybe I'm just bored since there are no more Lakers games.
But it's not like Jordan Hill is a guy like Devin Ebanks who just never got it and didn't work hard...or Darius Morris who seemed to work hard but just never got it mentally.
Jordan Hill was at one point one of the best offensive rebounders in the League. He got it....and he worked hard to develop his shooting ability. He supposedly got off the bottle, got in shape and lost weight.
I think there is more to him than meets the eye.
Maybe he just lost motivation because he got his big payday and he is just playing for fun. I just think a good coach could still teach him a thing or two about how to really play the game.
I just hate to see the Lakers lose a talented player. How many PF's have you seen improve their offensive skills that much? Heck, Ed Davis (who I like also) still hasn't even learned to make free throws. |
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BennyLava Star Player
Joined: 14 Dec 2012 Posts: 3582
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Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 9:36 am Post subject: |
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Lakerpark wrote: | Now I don't know why I am defending Jordan Hill so much....Maybe I just like rebounders.....my favorite Laker has always been Kermit Washington.....maybe I'm just bored since there are no more Lakers games.
But it's not like Jordan Hill is a guy like Devin Ebanks who just never got it and didn't work hard...or Darius Morris who seemed to work hard but just never got it mentally.
Jordan Hill was at one point one of the best offensive rebounders in the League. He got it....and he worked hard to develop his shooting ability. He supposedly got off the bottle, got in shape and lost weight.
I think there is more to him than meets the eye.
Maybe he just lost motivation because he got his big payday and he is just playing for fun. I just think a good coach could still teach him a thing or two about how to really play the game.
I just hate to see the Lakers lose a talented player. How many PF's have you seen improve their offensive skills that much? Heck, Ed Davis (who I like also) still hasn't even learned to make free throws. |
Maybe its the Swaggy P effect? That celebration after the Boston win suggests that JHill perhaps has gotten too close to the P that its started to rub off on him. |
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Reflexx Franchise Player
Joined: 25 Jun 2005 Posts: 11163
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Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 10:08 am Post subject: |
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Considering Hill's pretty consistent minutes, maybe Hill was doing exactly what Byron was asking of him. |
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venturalakersfan Retired Number
Joined: 14 Apr 2001 Posts: 144432 Location: The Gold Coast
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Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 10:08 am Post subject: |
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Hill's issues are in his head, he just doesn't seem very smart. As with Dwight Howard, Hill thinks he is one thing, but lacks the internal reflection to realize that he really isn't. While he should be a player who excels at one thing and continue to do that one thing, he instead thinks he needs to do more, things that he isn't good at.
Ellington is the guy who played is role well when the team was trying to win, but became about himself when that time had passed. I think he would still make a good role player as long as he stayed within his role.
Rondo is the guy who used his athleticism to excel in certain areas of the game, but was too lazy to strengthen his weaknesses. Now that injury has robbed him of some of that athleticism, he lacks the skills to compensate.
So I would welcome Ellington back, but pass on Hill and Rondo. _________________ RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023. |
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Tony Anapolis Star Player
Joined: 05 Jan 2015 Posts: 3331
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Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 10:13 am Post subject: |
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You got to have the will first then you hone the skill. Just read an article about K. Leonard and his work ethic. The Spurs are working with him right now, they want him to become a dominant "low-post" player. |
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Don Draper Retired Number
Joined: 21 Feb 2008 Posts: 28422 Location: LA --> Bay Area
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Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 11:27 am Post subject: |
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Tony Anapolis wrote: | You got to have the will first then you hone the skill. Just read an article about K. Leonard and his work ethic. The Spurs are working with him right now, they want him to become a dominant "low-post" player. |
He almost is that already. Heck, he was a great low post player in 2013. I remember his little jump hooks kept the Spurs in the game against the Heat that year. |
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ringfinger Retired Number
Joined: 08 Oct 2013 Posts: 29418
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Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 11:37 am Post subject: |
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I really like Hill.
As an off the bench, 20mpg guy. But not a 35 mpg starter making nearly an 8-digit salary.
By now he is what he is. Don't get lulled in to the potential thing at this point. |
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kwase Star Player
Joined: 21 Mar 2008 Posts: 3069
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Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 11:37 am Post subject: |
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Lakerpark wrote: | That's my point, the talent is there....but the Lakers need someone to get it (effort) out of him consistently and in a way to benefit the team.
I wonder who the best coach known for that is? Maybe Popavich....If the Lakers trade him it would suck to see the Spurs pick him up and he turns into a steady double double PF off the bench. |
Huh!?!?! I'd suggest a stonger prescription from your eye doctor. I know optimism is a good thing, but the Lakers are starting from zero. Kobe retires after next year, and Randle hasn't played yet so we don't know what we're going to get out of him. There is absolutely NO talent on this squad. And Popovich has a legit shot at going for back-back championships this year, with a proven FO and a young Kawhi...why in the hell would he come here???? Sure, a great coach can take you from losing in the conference finals to winning a championship, but there's not a coach dead or alive that can take you from having damn near the worst record in the NBA to a winning record! NOBODY! Before we start focusing on who should coach this team, we need to get a team worth coaching first! |
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activeverb Retired Number
Joined: 17 Jun 2006 Posts: 37470
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Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 12:14 pm Post subject: Re: Wills versus Skills |
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Lakerpark wrote: |
So do some of these players just lose their skills or do they lose their will to succeed? Could they put it all together again and be productive Lakers? |
1. Hill is an energy guy who provides diminishing returns the more he plays. He's OK in the right role, but overall he's run-of-the-mill.
2. Ellington is nothing more than a minimum wage 3-point specialist -- plenty of guys like him in the league. The better the team, the less he plays.
3. Rondo is toast -- bad attitude, self-entitlement, and injuries are a bad combo. |
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activeverb Retired Number
Joined: 17 Jun 2006 Posts: 37470
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Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 12:16 pm Post subject: |
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ringfinger wrote: | I really like Hill.
As an off the bench, 20mpg guy. But not a 35 mpg starter making nearly an 8-digit salary.
By now he is what he is. Don't get lulled in to the potential thing at this point. |
Hill is 27 and he's been in the league for 6 years. He may have more career behind him than in front of him, so it's time to accept what he is and quite hoping for potential. |
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ringfinger Retired Number
Joined: 08 Oct 2013 Posts: 29418
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Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 12:34 pm Post subject: |
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activeverb wrote: | ringfinger wrote: | I really like Hill.
As an off the bench, 20mpg guy. But not a 35 mpg starter making nearly an 8-digit salary.
By now he is what he is. Don't get lulled in to the potential thing at this point. |
Hill is 27 and he's been in the league for 6 years. He may have more career behind him than in front of him, so it's time to accept what he is and quite hoping for potential. |
Yup. I typically give a player a max of 4 seasons. Once they've had 4 seasons, they are who they are. |
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activeverb Retired Number
Joined: 17 Jun 2006 Posts: 37470
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Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 12:41 pm Post subject: |
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ringfinger wrote: | activeverb wrote: | ringfinger wrote: | I really like Hill.
As an off the bench, 20mpg guy. But not a 35 mpg starter making nearly an 8-digit salary.
By now he is what he is. Don't get lulled in to the potential thing at this point. |
Hill is 27 and he's been in the league for 6 years. He may have more career behind him than in front of him, so it's time to accept what he is and quite hoping for potential. |
Yup. I typically give a player a max of 4 seasons. Once they've had 4 seasons, they are who they are. |
That's reasonable. An ounce of real is more important an a pound of potential |
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ringfinger Retired Number
Joined: 08 Oct 2013 Posts: 29418
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Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 1:05 pm Post subject: |
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activeverb wrote: | ringfinger wrote: | activeverb wrote: | ringfinger wrote: | I really like Hill.
As an off the bench, 20mpg guy. But not a 35 mpg starter making nearly an 8-digit salary.
By now he is what he is. Don't get lulled in to the potential thing at this point. |
Hill is 27 and he's been in the league for 6 years. He may have more career behind him than in front of him, so it's time to accept what he is and quite hoping for potential. |
Yup. I typically give a player a max of 4 seasons. Once they've had 4 seasons, they are who they are. |
That's reasonable. An ounce of real is more important an a pound of potential |
No doubt. But people easily fall in love with potential because real is boring and predictable. |
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activeverb Retired Number
Joined: 17 Jun 2006 Posts: 37470
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Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 3:03 pm Post subject: |
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ringfinger wrote: | activeverb wrote: | ringfinger wrote: | activeverb wrote: | ringfinger wrote: | I really like Hill.
As an off the bench, 20mpg guy. But not a 35 mpg starter making nearly an 8-digit salary.
By now he is what he is. Don't get lulled in to the potential thing at this point. |
Hill is 27 and he's been in the league for 6 years. He may have more career behind him than in front of him, so it's time to accept what he is and quite hoping for potential. |
Yup. I typically give a player a max of 4 seasons. Once they've had 4 seasons, they are who they are. |
That's reasonable. An ounce of real is more important an a pound of potential |
No doubt. But people easily fall in love with potential because real is boring and predictable. |
People like magical thinking |
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Andre2K Franchise Player
Joined: 28 Oct 2004 Posts: 12199
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Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 3:05 pm Post subject: |
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I don't know why people are down on Hill here but I love his game and his improvement. He is a power forward that can play center, he is undersized at the center spot by the way, but his tenacious rebounding ability makes up for it in spot minutes. Hill is not a very good defender, he is not a shot blocker so yes he has his flaws especially when you pair him up with players like Ed Davis or sacre who have no business being in any team's starting line up. If you pair Hill with a legit Center like even a Robin Lopez or Jahlil Okafor, I think Hill's game will shine. He has extended his range and he is very good with the pick n pop game and not a bad roller and finisher at the basket too. Players like Hill will always have a higher price tag because bigs with skills like that are such a valuable asset to a team. Just imagine if we are stuck with a player like Asik playing power forward for us. I think we are lucky to have Hill and I hope the front office feels the same way, we just need to pair him up with a legit center and our front court will be set with Randle, Kelly, Sacre and Ed Davis coming off the bench. Hopefully he can get better defensively too the way he has improved offensively. Hill is definitely a keeper. _________________ My Dream Starting 5 next Season
Pg Lonzo
Sg Kawhi
Sf Ingram
Pf Lebron
C Dedmon
Bench: Caruso, Hart, Bullock, Kuzma, McGee etc |
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jonnybravo Retired Number
Joined: 21 Sep 2007 Posts: 30619
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Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 3:24 pm Post subject: |
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Sniper008 wrote: | I don't know why people are down on Hill here but I love his game and his improvement. He is a power forward that can play center, he is undersized at the center spot by the way, but his tenacious rebounding ability makes up for it in spot minutes. Hill is not a very good defender, he is not a shot blocker so yes he has his flaws especially when you pair him up with players like Ed Davis or sacre who have no business being in any team's starting line up. If you pair Hill with a legit Center like even a Robin Lopez or Jahlil Okafor, I think Hill's game will shine. He has extended his range and he is very good with the pick n pop game and not a bad roller and finisher at the basket too. Players like Hill will always have a higher price tag because bigs with skills like that are such a valuable asset to a team. Just imagine if we are stuck with a player like Asik playing power forward for us. I think we are lucky to have Hill and I hope the front office feels the same way, we just need to pair him up with a legit center and our front court will be set with Randle, Kelly, Sacre and Ed Davis coming off the bench. Hopefully he can get better defensively too the way he has improved offensively. Hill is definitely a keeper. |
What did he improve on exactly? He still turns his back on defense to pads his rebounding stats. He does absolutely nothing in terms rim protection.
The one facet of his game where he showed a semblance of an improvement was his jump-shot. He went from a guy who had no business stepping out to just a bad shooter. He shot a blistering 38.6% on his new found jumper from the mid-range:
http://vorped.com/1-nba/2014-2015/player/894/jordan-hill/shotchart/
Despite this, 46.7% of his total shots...damn near half were from mid-range. He's the Josh Smith equivalent of shot selection. He'll never be accused of having a high basketball IQ. Or having basketball IQ at all for that matter.
What's spectacularly comical about this is the one thing he provides...rebounding (albeit at the expense of any defense whatsoever) suffered as a result of his love for standing outside.
He and Nick are the poster children of this season. I'm going to do my best to forget this pox of a season ever occured and pretend these bums never donned the PnG.
*edit* - Christ, forgot we're stuck with Nick. Awesome, 3 more years of jackassery. |
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70sdude Star Player
Joined: 05 Feb 2009 Posts: 4567
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Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 4:00 pm Post subject: |
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Well, I think there's a general misconception among many fans that players in general seek the same things (such as to excel at basketball). I don't think they all do, at least not to the same extent, nor necessarily for as long.
In my life, I've learned there's remarkable diversity among folks in terms of their willingness to give full effort - and for how long - to reach their primary and secondary goals.
Jordan Hill might become a higher impact player under another coach or in another system. But he may not, even given the ideal situ.
Perhaps he's peaked physically and skill-wise. Perhaps he's reached his mail goal. I suspect that making $18M over two seasons would satisfy a lot of folk's innate competitive urge to a rather high extent. Me ? I'm not sure I could summon the necessary urge and drive again to do my best possible in this sport, with that type of banked cash. I retired on far less, with a chance to work a long time more for more security. But I passed on the chance. I'd guess that if the effort is truly a test of will to excel - and not just to survive adequately, I can understand another guy having difficulty summoning enough of his original level of drive to succeed. |
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Andre2K Franchise Player
Joined: 28 Oct 2004 Posts: 12199
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Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 6:18 pm Post subject: |
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jonnybravo wrote: | Sniper008 wrote: | I don't know why people are down on Hill here but I love his game and his improvement. He is a power forward that can play center, he is undersized at the center spot by the way, but his tenacious rebounding ability makes up for it in spot minutes. Hill is not a very good defender, he is not a shot blocker so yes he has his flaws especially when you pair him up with players like Ed Davis or sacre who have no business being in any team's starting line up. If you pair Hill with a legit Center like even a Robin Lopez or Jahlil Okafor, I think Hill's game will shine. He has extended his range and he is very good with the pick n pop game and not a bad roller and finisher at the basket too. Players like Hill will always have a higher price tag because bigs with skills like that are such a valuable asset to a team. Just imagine if we are stuck with a player like Asik playing power forward for us. I think we are lucky to have Hill and I hope the front office feels the same way, we just need to pair him up with a legit center and our front court will be set with Randle, Kelly, Sacre and Ed Davis coming off the bench. Hopefully he can get better defensively too the way he has improved offensively. Hill is definitely a keeper. |
What did he improve on exactly? He still turns his back on defense to pads his rebounding stats. He does absolutely nothing in terms rim protection.
The one facet of his game where he showed a semblance of an improvement was his jump-shot. He went from a guy who had no business stepping out to just a bad shooter. He shot a blistering 38.6% on his new found jumper from the mid-range:
http://vorped.com/1-nba/2014-2015/player/894/jordan-hill/shotchart/
Despite this, 46.7% of his total shots...damn near half were from mid-range. He's the Josh Smith equivalent of shot selection. He'll never be accused of having a high basketball IQ. Or having basketball IQ at all for that matter.
What's spectacularly comical about this is the one thing he provides...rebounding (albeit at the expense of any defense whatsoever) suffered as a result of his love for standing outside.
He and Nick are the poster children of this season. I'm going to do my best to forget this pox of a season ever occured and pretend these bums never donned the PnG.
*edit* - Christ, forgot we're stuck with Nick. Awesome, 3 more years of jackassery. |
Like I mentioned earlier in my post he is not a great defender and he doesn't provide much rim protection but paired up with a quality big I think he will be excellent for us as he as shown in the past.
This season was a lost season and sometimes you are just as good as your teammates. When Hill was paired up with bigs like Bynum and Pau we saw him providing energy and hustling for every rebound and he was a nice surprise. Now that he gets extended minutes and being relied heavily on it is hard to maintain that intensity through out. If we get one more quality big to pair him with I think we will get to appreciate him for just what he is. _________________ My Dream Starting 5 next Season
Pg Lonzo
Sg Kawhi
Sf Ingram
Pf Lebron
C Dedmon
Bench: Caruso, Hart, Bullock, Kuzma, McGee etc |
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