I think Magic would have been better in this era. Would have developed the shot earlier, and all the other stuff translates directly. Would have been, like Kobe, a guy who could dribble into the post as well. On defense, he was one of the great team defenders, like Bird, well ahead of his time. Would have been great in this era with his ability to hedge, read the offense, and switch onto anyone. Probably could play all five positions in today's game.
Disagree a bit on Worthy. He also would have developed the shot earlier, and i see a Marion on steroids role on offense, with the ability to give him the ball and let him attack. Quickest first step I ever saw in a guy his size, and none of the steps after was slower. And Worthy was a guy they often stuck on guards defensively, both because of his quick feet and to get him out in transition. He and Magic and Cooper and Scott would be able to cause a lot of problems in a team defensive scheme.
Kareem might have the toughest time, but as a Hibbert type anchor, he'd be fine on D, and his offense would still work because he ate doubles up, and he'd pick apart the hedges and stunts.
The thing that gets understated with that team is their IQ. just a really smart group of guys.
I could buy the argument that Magic would be better in this era. He was an excellent free throw shooter, which IMO provides insight into whether or not he could add range to his shot (which he did toward the end). And he'd be a matchup nightmare for many of the reasons that I think Randle's going to be going forward. I could definitely see him thriving offensively. Defensively, I don't think he translates as well, even as a team defender. So much of perimeter defense these days involves rotating out to shooters, which I think he'd struggle with, even with his high IQ.
I don't think Worthy would have had a huge problem offensively, and I think the "Marion on steroids" comparison is apt in that respect. I could even argue that he'd benefit from having to close out to the perimeter defensively, due to his quickness. I just think he'd struggle on the boards, and I don't think his outside jumper would have developed as effectively as Magic's did.
Kareem, I dunno. He usually liked to put it on the floor a couple of times, feel the defenders body, and "swing left, shoot right" or vice versa. I think he'd have a hard time with swarming guards in that instance. Also, aside from the rule changes, I think post defense has improved tremendously, which has led to a decrease in post effectiveness, along with the rule changes. Every time I re-watch older footage, I'm blown away by how the post defender let's the big catch the pass exactly where he wants to catch it, with no resistance. The romanticized memories of how "tough" defense was in the 80's is simply not true, especially as it pertains to post defense.
How many times does Kareem face 3/4 denial or any degree of resistance on the post catch? Almost all of it is just standing behind him and waiting for him to catch it.
I'd tend to agree with you that denying the post has gotten better since then, but I'm curious that you're giving Magic Worthy and the others the benefit of the doubt that they'd be able to adapt their games to today's game and Kareem wouldn't be able to?
I always thought that KAJ did the dribbles & the swing one way, shoot the other to try to draw defenders in so he could pass to cutters. He was considered one of the best passing big men out of the post, and I think he used those moves to facilitate that. (and yeah, I know he did some of that to make the defender move his feet)
On the other hand, I've seen a lot of times where KAJ got the ball and immediately went into his skyhook - without the extraneous dribbles or swing move. That proves to me he could essentially catch and shoot the skyhook without all of that extra stuff, if he needed to. When I consider him getting the ball and immediately going into his spin for the hook shot, I think he'd cause huge problems for defenders in todays game.
Getting him the ball would be more difficult for sure... but, I think if you put some 3pt shooters around KAJ, it wouldn't be a huge amount harder - and considering the fact that when he didn't dribble, he kept that ball up high - meaning sag defenders wouldn't be as much of a threat as they are to guys like DH that bring the ball down low
what probably would slow KAJ down is the more common use of the arm bar and pushing guys out of the lane more aggressively then they used to. KAJ wasn't the kind of guy that could really bull his way into the post. _________________ LBJ + AD = More rings
Never argue with a fool - listeners can't tell you apart
Wilt's unstoppable fadeaway: www.youtube.com/watch?v=8O9MgNfcGJA
NPZ's Magic Johnson mix: www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8Qbo0WqvOI
Did the rules change, or did every big kid decide he wants to be the next Magic or Dirk? Heck, even Bynum wanted to launch 3's. Todays big man has more interest in playing the game that way. It is not that the rules made the change, it was a change in how the big kids decided they wanted to play. You get a big to dedicate himself to the low post offense and learn how to pass out of the double team, and that guy is going to be very effective in this league, in spite of the rules.
Magic, Scott and Coop could all hit the 3 effectively to space the D. Worthy had a terrific Midrange game.
^^^ Agreed to say that KAreem wouldn't be as effective in today's era is frankly just disrespectful to the Captain. He would dominate guys like Howard and Jordan... too smart and too skilled.
It's so easy to score in this era. Kareem would be unstoppable and so would the Lakers.
If it's so easy to score in this era, why is scoring so much lower in this era?
Its obvious that today's players are more athletic. Worthy MIGHT not have been as good (but still would be one of the best players in the league today) because his game was built an his athleticism.
I think Magic and KAJ would be better today. PG's in the Showtime era were bigger and more physical. Magic's game, built more on his physical abilities than his athletic prowess, would thrive in today's league. Can you imagine CP3 (one of the best defensive pg's in the league, trying to guard Magic.
KAJ would also flourish today given the defensive rule changes of todays league. Can you imagine the captain playing against single or double coverage instead of being triple teamed. Let's not forget that the skyhook is still the greatest weapon in the history of the league. If you had to have two points, who would you want to draw a play for (assuming everyone is at their peak). I do not care what era it is and who its against. I would not draw up a play for Jordan, Magic, or even Wilt. KAJ would get the call.
The showtime Lakers would eat up today's watered down teams. Try comparing today's Spurs against us. It would be a joke.
GT - You make some very good arguments on how and why today's rules affect the low post. But I can't help but feel the style of play is affected by the current style preference of todays players. But you may be on point when you accuse me of seeing what I want to see. Friends tell me I am stuck in the eighties.
But, if you think you are gonna convince me that kids today aren't spoiled and lack discipline, then you got another thing coming. Why in my day, if we stepped out of line, we would have to lick the roads clean with our tongues as punishment.
This would be much harder to accept if you're sitting there with a Flock Of Seagulls haircut that we can't see. _________________ GOAT MAGIC REEL SEDALE TRIBUTE EDDIE DONX!
Last edited by non-player zealot on Thu Apr 23, 2015 8:23 am; edited 1 time in total
break? yes
halfcourt? magic and kaj
defense? teamwork - yes, toughness - yes, man-to-man - yes
if we played with yesterday's sporting refs instead of todays entertainment refs.. today's teams wouldn't even exist.
if we played with todays refs - it'd look competitive until playoffs.
sorry but if lebrons passing get's highlights - magic can do that with eyes shut.
kaj would run circles around dwight in results/efficiency on both sides of the floor when matched up.
And that ladies and gents are 2 of today's "premier" talents.
Any team with a good PG would need to deal with magic in the post.. goodnight.
Any team looking to slow it down is suddenly watching skyhooks all night with magic throwing full court passes to worthy. bye bye.
There's a reason why 3pt shots have never been an actual gameplan until recent years... teams of previous would destroy you everytime with that shooting %. Even a mediocre team from a decade ago. _________________ KOBE!!!
One thing I can also say about the Lakers is that back then when you actually practiced the mid range game, it allowed you to score.
Think of the most effective scorers in this league, someone like a Westbrook, one staplepoint of his game is the mid range jumper.
Why? Because with the way rules are nowadays and the way the game is played, players ALWAYS give up the mid range. They are either guarding you hard at the 3 point line, or they are backing all the way to the basket to guard your drive, it leaves the mid wide open.
Nash taught Clarkson about this and he became a 19ppg scorer by the end of the year because he had an efficient mid range shot.
Back in the showtime era the mid range shot was considered something of a must practice, as many wide open mid range shots they'd get off picks would just be a field day with the way people try to play defense.
Aside from zone when it comes to iso skills it isn't considered as important today as it was back then.
Zone prevents the games from being scored crazily like yesteryear but the principles of defense seem to be lost along the mass.
Could anyone imagine Wilkes being consistently left wide open from mid? Or Magic? Or Scott?
When it comes down to Kareem, no one stops his skyhook and he was a very efficient passer out of the post, and imo is the G.O.A.T when it comes to basketball, High School, College and NBA.
That and Magic being a 6'9 point guard with a post game and strength, against other point guards he'd be a matchup nightmare and would draw multiple double teams, which would leave many teammates open either from the mid range or in the post.
When I see how many wide open mid range shots are available in todays game I also think about just how much Jerry West would dominate. You know what happens if you leave him open from mid.
Joined: 07 Jul 2006 Posts: 8287 Location: Oxnard, Ca.
Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 4:26 pm Post subject:
RI Laker wrote:
Its obvious that today's players are more athletic. Worthy MIGHT not have been as good (but still would be one of the best players in the league today) because his game was built an his athleticism.
I think Magic and KAJ would be better today. PG's in the Showtime era were bigger and more physical. Magic's game, built more on his physical abilities than his athletic prowess, would thrive in today's league. Can you imagine CP3 (one of the best defensive pg's in the league, trying to guard Magic.
KAJ would also flourish today given the defensive rule changes of todays league. Can you imagine the captain playing against single or double coverage instead of being triple teamed. Let's not forget that the skyhook is still the greatest weapon in the history of the league. If you had to have two points, who would you want to draw a play for (assuming everyone is at their peak). I do not care what era it is and who its against. I would not draw up a play for Jordan, Magic, or even Wilt. KAJ would get the call.
The showtime Lakers would eat up today's watered down teams. Try comparing today's Spurs against us. It would be a joke.
Totally agree....... also, our current coach was an athletic freak. Some forget that Scott was our leading scorer the year injuries destroyed a great team, and he was not top 3 of players on that team. Plus the ShowTime era had great character guy's, truly professional attitude, like the Spur teams.
I just don't get fans thinking that the 80's was that long ago in terms of speed and athleticism.
I would like to see today's teams matching up against the Celtics teams of the Magic era. Bird, Chief and Frankenstein would kill any front line of today. _________________ .....
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ALTHOUGH HE STANDS 6 FEET 2 INCHES, JIM BUSS ATTENDED JOCKEY SCHOOL WHEN HE WAS 20.
Joined: 07 Jul 2006 Posts: 8287 Location: Oxnard, Ca.
Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 4:49 pm Post subject:
Some also forget that expansion has watered down the league somewhat. Just one team means 13 additional players. I hate how expansion has watered down the league, it has also allowed the smarter teams to dominate, the Spurs for example. At least before expansion more teams had talent by default. _________________ .....
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ALTHOUGH HE STANDS 6 FEET 2 INCHES, JIM BUSS ATTENDED JOCKEY SCHOOL WHEN HE WAS 20.
Some also forget that expansion has watered down the league somewhat. Just one team means 13 additional players. I hate how expansion has watered down the league, it has also allowed the smarter teams to dominate, the Spurs for example. At least before expansion more teams had talent by default.
With 1 team in the last 19 years (Charlotte), this is the slowest rate of expansion in the history of the league, by far. Over those 19 years, the game has seen unprecedented growth in it's talent pool, both with the increase in the domestic population (58,000,000-ish more people in the US now than in 1995), and with the enormous growth of basketball's international popularity over the last 20 years. The number of international players in the NBA has tripled in that time.
This is the deepest the talent level has ever been in the NBA, and the 80's-90's were not even remotely close.
Joined: 02 May 2005 Posts: 90305 Location: Formerly Known As 24
Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 5:12 pm Post subject:
RI Laker wrote:
Its obvious that today's players are more athletic. Worthy MIGHT not have been as good (but still would be one of the best players in the league today) because his game was built an his athleticism.
I think Magic and KAJ would be better today. PG's in the Showtime era were bigger and more physical. Magic's game, built more on his physical abilities than his athletic prowess, would thrive in today's league. Can you imagine CP3 (one of the best defensive pg's in the league, trying to guard Magic.
KAJ would also flourish today given the defensive rule changes of todays league. Can you imagine the captain playing against single or double coverage instead of being triple teamed. Let's not forget that the skyhook is still the greatest weapon in the history of the league. If you had to have two points, who would you want to draw a play for (assuming everyone is at their peak). I do not care what era it is and who its against. I would not draw up a play for Jordan, Magic, or even Wilt. KAJ would get the call.
The showtime Lakers would eat up today's watered down teams. Try comparing today's Spurs against us. It would be a joke.
I think you have that one backward. Kareem was able to set up on a single defender by rule, with no help defenders able to hedge into him before the entry pass. Teams almost never denied the entry because you could just have the post man seal the defender the other way and throw it over the top, and no weak side big playing on the opposite side of the lane would be there to contest him. And the double had to come from farther away, and the post man knew where it had to come from because he knew exactly where his guys were set up. Much much harder to post up now than in the past.
Some also forget that expansion has watered down the league somewhat. Just one team means 13 additional players. I hate how expansion has watered down the league, it has also allowed the smarter teams to dominate, the Spurs for example. At least before expansion more teams had talent by default.
I don't buy that; in fact there is more talent in the league now than ever. Here's why:
In Magic's day there were 23 teams; now there are 30. That's an increase of 30%
However, the USA population during that time has grown 40%. If you assume the percentage of NBA-level athletes in a population remains consistent year to year, population growth alone would fill those teams.
Also, in Magic's day foreign players rarely went into the NBA. Now there are over 100 on NBA teams. That's the equivalent of 7 or 8 NBA teams.
The real different, in my opinion, is that today the rules make it harder to put together superteams. I don't think there's less talent; the talent is just spread around more. Because we are used to being one of the superteams, it just seems like the talent is diluted to us. But if you weren't one of the3 or 5 superteams in the 80s, the NBA talent looked pretty bleak back then.
Its obvious that today's players are more athletic. Worthy MIGHT not have been as good (but still would be one of the best players in the league today) because his game was built an his athleticism.
I think Magic and KAJ would be better today. PG's in the Showtime era were bigger and more physical. Magic's game, built more on his physical abilities than his athletic prowess, would thrive in today's league. Can you imagine CP3 (one of the best defensive pg's in the league, trying to guard Magic.
KAJ would also flourish today given the defensive rule changes of todays league. Can you imagine the captain playing against single or double coverage instead of being triple teamed. Let's not forget that the skyhook is still the greatest weapon in the history of the league. If you had to have two points, who would you want to draw a play for (assuming everyone is at their peak). I do not care what era it is and who its against. I would not draw up a play for Jordan, Magic, or even Wilt. KAJ would get the call.
The showtime Lakers would eat up today's watered down teams. Try comparing today's Spurs against us. It would be a joke.
I think you have that one backward. Kareem was able to set up on a single defender by rule, with no help defenders able to hedge into him before the entry pass. Teams almost never denied the entry because you could just have the post man seal the defender the other way and throw it over the top, and no weak side big playing on the opposite side of the lane would be there to contest him. And the double had to come from farther away, and the post man knew where it had to come from because he knew exactly where his guys were set up. Much much harder to post up now than in the past.
The caveat were the assorted periods during assorted playoffs where assorted refs allowed assorted opposing F/Gs to sag so far off their man that it was a soft zone (as also witnessed in 2000 vs Portland against Shaq). Then Riles would complain, then the Lakers' opponents would complain if it went the other way (Cunningham did in 82, e.g.). Porty got away with it for stretches in 83, Jim Paxson was also overheard on cam saying, "Knock him on his ass, who gives a F?" Little things like that. Kareem was Target #1 for ruffage. He hated contact to the point of elbows and fisticuffs until he retired. He threw an elbow at Manute Bol's face in his final year. Manute Bol... Seattle in 80 and 81 had big Jack, a bulky tall C to stand behind the thinner version of Cap and they took away his skyhook sweet spots fantastically. They just did their best to have someone lurking near or holding their Laker opponent in the places where Kareem liked to shoot. The worst game I have of Kareem is from that period, he shot 3-17 or thereabouts with a lot of those awkward secondary turnaround jumpers that he went to when all routes to the skyhook were shut off. However, over the course of a series or season, Kareem's gonna get his. I actually think Kareem at his 87 weight would've been an even bigger force. He was a load at that point. He could back in most guys to get to his preferred skyhook points without having to rely on finesse. _________________ GOAT MAGIC REEL SEDALE TRIBUTE EDDIE DONX!
Its obvious that today's players are more athletic. Worthy MIGHT not have been as good (but still would be one of the best players in the league today) because his game was built an his athleticism.
I think Magic and KAJ would be better today. PG's in the Showtime era were bigger and more physical. Magic's game, built more on his physical abilities than his athletic prowess, would thrive in today's league. Can you imagine CP3 (one of the best defensive pg's in the league, trying to guard Magic.
KAJ would also flourish today given the defensive rule changes of todays league. Can you imagine the captain playing against single or double coverage instead of being triple teamed. Let's not forget that the skyhook is still the greatest weapon in the history of the league. If you had to have two points, who would you want to draw a play for (assuming everyone is at their peak). I do not care what era it is and who its against. I would not draw up a play for Jordan, Magic, or even Wilt. KAJ would get the call.
The showtime Lakers would eat up today's watered down teams. Try comparing today's Spurs against us. It would be a joke.
I think you have that one backward. Kareem was able to set up on a single defender by rule, with no help defenders able to hedge into him before the entry pass. Teams almost never denied the entry because you could just have the post man seal the defender the other way and throw it over the top, and no weak side big playing on the opposite side of the lane would be there to contest him. And the double had to come from farther away, and the post man knew where it had to come from because he knew exactly where his guys were set up. Much much harder to post up now than in the past.
Kareem was a great all-around player and athlete. He would still be an MVP in this era.
Joined: 02 May 2005 Posts: 90305 Location: Formerly Known As 24
Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 10:17 pm Post subject:
activeverb wrote:
24 wrote:
RI Laker wrote:
Its obvious that today's players are more athletic. Worthy MIGHT not have been as good (but still would be one of the best players in the league today) because his game was built an his athleticism.
I think Magic and KAJ would be better today. PG's in the Showtime era were bigger and more physical. Magic's game, built more on his physical abilities than his athletic prowess, would thrive in today's league. Can you imagine CP3 (one of the best defensive pg's in the league, trying to guard Magic.
KAJ would also flourish today given the defensive rule changes of todays league. Can you imagine the captain playing against single or double coverage instead of being triple teamed. Let's not forget that the skyhook is still the greatest weapon in the history of the league. If you had to have two points, who would you want to draw a play for (assuming everyone is at their peak). I do not care what era it is and who its against. I would not draw up a play for Jordan, Magic, or even Wilt. KAJ would get the call.
The showtime Lakers would eat up today's watered down teams. Try comparing today's Spurs against us. It would be a joke.
I think you have that one backward. Kareem was able to set up on a single defender by rule, with no help defenders able to hedge into him before the entry pass. Teams almost never denied the entry because you could just have the post man seal the defender the other way and throw it over the top, and no weak side big playing on the opposite side of the lane would be there to contest him. And the double had to come from farther away, and the post man knew where it had to come from because he knew exactly where his guys were set up. Much much harder to post up now than in the past.
Kareem was a great all-around player and athlete. He would still be an MVP in this era.
I dont doubt that at all. I just think the idea that he would see more single coverage now than then is backward. Much easier to double guys now.
Joined: 07 Jul 2006 Posts: 8287 Location: Oxnard, Ca.
Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2015 10:27 am Post subject:
GoldenThroat wrote:
Voices wrote:
Some also forget that expansion has watered down the league somewhat. Just one team means 13 additional players. I hate how expansion has watered down the league, it has also allowed the smarter teams to dominate, the Spurs for example. At least before expansion more teams had talent by default.
With 1 team in the last 19 years (Charlotte), this is the slowest rate of expansion in the history of the league, by far. Over those 19 years, the game has seen unprecedented growth in it's talent pool, both with the increase in the domestic population (58,000,000-ish more people in the US now than in 1995), and with the enormous growth of basketball's international popularity over the last 20 years. The number of international players in the NBA has tripled in that time.
This is the deepest the talent level has ever been in the NBA, and the 80's-90's were not even remotely close.
I did use the word "somewhat" in my description, I think that is correct. I still stand by my opinion, the league has grown faster than the available talent, somewhat. You point about the time frame of expansion is also valid and noted. _________________ .....
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ALTHOUGH HE STANDS 6 FEET 2 INCHES, JIM BUSS ATTENDED JOCKEY SCHOOL WHEN HE WAS 20.
Joined: 07 Jul 2006 Posts: 8287 Location: Oxnard, Ca.
Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2015 10:34 am Post subject:
activeverb wrote:
24 wrote:
RI Laker wrote:
Its obvious that today's players are more athletic. Worthy MIGHT not have been as good (but still would be one of the best players in the league today) because his game was built an his athleticism.
I think Magic and KAJ would be better today. PG's in the Showtime era were bigger and more physical. Magic's game, built more on his physical abilities than his athletic prowess, would thrive in today's league. Can you imagine CP3 (one of the best defensive pg's in the league, trying to guard Magic.
KAJ would also flourish today given the defensive rule changes of todays league. Can you imagine the captain playing against single or double coverage instead of being triple teamed. Let's not forget that the skyhook is still the greatest weapon in the history of the league. If you had to have two points, who would you want to draw a play for (assuming everyone is at their peak). I do not care what era it is and who its against. I would not draw up a play for Jordan, Magic, or even Wilt. KAJ would get the call.
The showtime Lakers would eat up today's watered down teams. Try comparing today's Spurs against us. It would be a joke.
I think you have that one backward. Kareem was able to set up on a single defender by rule, with no help defenders able to hedge into him before the entry pass. Teams almost never denied the entry because you could just have the post man seal the defender the other way and throw it over the top, and no weak side big playing on the opposite side of the lane would be there to contest him. And the double had to come from farther away, and the post man knew where it had to come from because he knew exactly where his guys were set up. Much much harder to post up now than in the past.
Kareem was a great all-around player and athlete. He would still be an MVP in this era.
So true. _________________ .....
.....
ALTHOUGH HE STANDS 6 FEET 2 INCHES, JIM BUSS ATTENDED JOCKEY SCHOOL WHEN HE WAS 20.
Joined: 07 Jul 2006 Posts: 8287 Location: Oxnard, Ca.
Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2015 10:39 am Post subject:
activeverb wrote:
24 wrote:
RI Laker wrote:
Its obvious that today's players are more athletic. Worthy MIGHT not have been as good (but still would be one of the best players in the league today) because his game was built an his athleticism.
I think Magic and KAJ would be better today. PG's in the Showtime era were bigger and more physical. Magic's game, built more on his physical abilities than his athletic prowess, would thrive in today's league. Can you imagine CP3 (one of the best defensive pg's in the league, trying to guard Magic.
KAJ would also flourish today given the defensive rule changes of todays league. Can you imagine the captain playing against single or double coverage instead of being triple teamed. Let's not forget that the skyhook is still the greatest weapon in the history of the league. If you had to have two points, who would you want to draw a play for (assuming everyone is at their peak). I do not care what era it is and who its against. I would not draw up a play for Jordan, Magic, or even Wilt. KAJ would get the call.
The showtime Lakers would eat up today's watered down teams. Try comparing today's Spurs against us. It would be a joke.
I think you have that one backward. Kareem was able to set up on a single defender by rule, with no help defenders able to hedge into him before the entry pass. Teams almost never denied the entry because you could just have the post man seal the defender the other way and throw it over the top, and no weak side big playing on the opposite side of the lane would be there to contest him. And the double had to come from farther away, and the post man knew where it had to come from because he knew exactly where his guys were set up. Much much harder to post up now than in the past.
Kareem was a great all-around player and athlete. He would still be an MVP in this era.
So true. _________________ .....
.....
ALTHOUGH HE STANDS 6 FEET 2 INCHES, JIM BUSS ATTENDED JOCKEY SCHOOL WHEN HE WAS 20.
Its obvious that today's players are more athletic. Worthy MIGHT not have been as good (but still would be one of the best players in the league today) because his game was built an his athleticism.
I think Magic and KAJ would be better today. PG's in the Showtime era were bigger and more physical. Magic's game, built more on his physical abilities than his athletic prowess, would thrive in today's league. Can you imagine CP3 (one of the best defensive pg's in the league, trying to guard Magic.
KAJ would also flourish today given the defensive rule changes of todays league. Can you imagine the captain playing against single or double coverage instead of being triple teamed. Let's not forget that the skyhook is still the greatest weapon in the history of the league. If you had to have two points, who would you want to draw a play for (assuming everyone is at their peak). I do not care what era it is and who its against. I would not draw up a play for Jordan, Magic, or even Wilt. KAJ would get the call.
The showtime Lakers would eat up today's watered down teams. Try comparing today's Spurs against us. It would be a joke.
I think you have that one backward. Kareem was able to set up on a single defender by rule, with no help defenders able to hedge into him before the entry pass. Teams almost never denied the entry because you could just have the post man seal the defender the other way and throw it over the top, and no weak side big playing on the opposite side of the lane would be there to contest him. And the double had to come from farther away, and the post man knew where it had to come from because he knew exactly where his guys were set up. Much much harder to post up now than in the past.
Kareem was a great all-around player and athlete. He would still be an MVP in this era.
Showtime Kareem was a good to very good player. This discussion isn't about the totality of Kareem's career, it's about the Showtime Era, which encompasses the end of it. I think that Kareem is inappropriately overlooked in the GOAT discussion, but I didn't think that we were talking about him circa 1974 in this particular discussion.
Its obvious that today's players are more athletic. Worthy MIGHT not have been as good (but still would be one of the best players in the league today) because his game was built an his athleticism.
I think Magic and KAJ would be better today. PG's in the Showtime era were bigger and more physical. Magic's game, built more on his physical abilities than his athletic prowess, would thrive in today's league. Can you imagine CP3 (one of the best defensive pg's in the league, trying to guard Magic.
KAJ would also flourish today given the defensive rule changes of todays league. Can you imagine the captain playing against single or double coverage instead of being triple teamed. Let's not forget that the skyhook is still the greatest weapon in the history of the league. If you had to have two points, who would you want to draw a play for (assuming everyone is at their peak). I do not care what era it is and who its against. I would not draw up a play for Jordan, Magic, or even Wilt. KAJ would get the call.
The showtime Lakers would eat up today's watered down teams. Try comparing today's Spurs against us. It would be a joke.
I think you have that one backward. Kareem was able to set up on a single defender by rule, with no help defenders able to hedge into him before the entry pass. Teams almost never denied the entry because you could just have the post man seal the defender the other way and throw it over the top, and no weak side big playing on the opposite side of the lane would be there to contest him. And the double had to come from farther away, and the post man knew where it had to come from because he knew exactly where his guys were set up. Much much harder to post up now than in the past.
Kareem was a great all-around player and athlete. He would still be an MVP in this era.
Showtime Kareem was a good to very good player. This discussion isn't about the totality of Kareem's career, it's about the Showtime Era, which encompasses the end of it. I think that Kareem is inappropriately overlooked in the GOAT discussion, but I didn't think that we were talking about him circa 1974 in this particular discussion.
Depending on who you ask, Showtime started when Magic was drafted in the 1979-80 season - and KAJ was 32 that season.
Or, some people think Showtime started when Pat Riley was promoted coach during the 81-82 season - and KAJ was 34 that season. The whole full court press trying to create extra break opps, fast "all the time" mantra, not to mentions Riles suits and slicked back hair -- all those kind of defined Showtime.
So, depending on which start date you adhere too, you might have had 2-4 years of an (that era) MVP caliber KAJ or only 1 or 2 years (opinions vary). KAJ started to have a pretty good drop in minutes and his ability to run out plays starting in 1982 or so.
Personally, I think that a 1982 era KAJ would still be able to get pretty good points assuming they adapted supporting players and sets to modern rules and reality...but there's almost no way 34 y.o. KAJ could be considered for MVP in the modern era compared to LBJ, Durant, brow, Westbrooke, etc
Maybe - and that's a pretty slim maybe - a 27 year old KAJ could be...but not a 34 year old who was already slowing down
On the other hand, considering the lack of talent at C - it is entirely possible KAJ could make the all star team _________________ LBJ + AD = More rings
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Depending on who you ask, Showtime started when Magic was drafted in the 1979-80 season - and KAJ was 32 that season.
Or, some people think Showtime started when Pat Riley was promoted coach during the 81-82 season - and KAJ was 34 that season. The whole full court press trying to create extra break opps, fast "all the time" mantra, not to mentions Riles suits and slicked back hair -- all those kind of defined Showtime.
So, depending on which start date you adhere too, you might have had 2-4 years of an (that era) MVP caliber KAJ or only 1 or 2 years (opinions vary). KAJ started to have a pretty good drop in minutes and his ability to run out plays starting in 1982 or so.
Personally, I think that a 1982 era KAJ would still be able to get pretty good points assuming they adapted supporting players and sets to modern rules and reality...but there's almost no way 34 y.o. KAJ could be considered for MVP in the modern era compared to LBJ, Durant, brow, Westbrooke, etc
Maybe - and that's a pretty slim maybe - a 27 year old KAJ could be...but not a 34 year old who was already slowing down
On the other hand, considering the lack of talent at C - it is entirely possible KAJ could make the all star team
This is a good point, in that we haven't defined when "Showtime" was. In my mind, it begins with Worthy's arrival, which coincided with Riley's first full season. 82-83 Kareem was still a very good scorer, although his rebounding had already declined at that point.
I guess if I had to think of a particular year that I associated with Showtime, it would '87, followed closely by '85. So that's the Kareem that's in my head in the context of this conversation.
Joined: 02 Jun 2009 Posts: 2415 Location: Far from home
Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 4:13 am Post subject:
GoldenThroat wrote:
P.K. wrote:
Depending on who you ask, Showtime started when Magic was drafted in the 1979-80 season - and KAJ was 32 that season.
Or, some people think Showtime started when Pat Riley was promoted coach during the 81-82 season - and KAJ was 34 that season. The whole full court press trying to create extra break opps, fast "all the time" mantra, not to mentions Riles suits and slicked back hair -- all those kind of defined Showtime.
So, depending on which start date you adhere too, you might have had 2-4 years of an (that era) MVP caliber KAJ or only 1 or 2 years (opinions vary). KAJ started to have a pretty good drop in minutes and his ability to run out plays starting in 1982 or so.
Personally, I think that a 1982 era KAJ would still be able to get pretty good points assuming they adapted supporting players and sets to modern rules and reality...but there's almost no way 34 y.o. KAJ could be considered for MVP in the modern era compared to LBJ, Durant, brow, Westbrooke, etc
Maybe - and that's a pretty slim maybe - a 27 year old KAJ could be...but not a 34 year old who was already slowing down
On the other hand, considering the lack of talent at C - it is entirely possible KAJ could make the all star team
This is a good point, in that we haven't defined when "Showtime" was. In my mind, it begins with Worthy's arrival, which coincided with Riley's first full season. 82-83 Kareem was still a very good scorer, although his rebounding had already declined at that point.
I guess if I had to think of a particular year that I associated with Showtime, it would '87, followed closely by '85. So that's the Kareem that's in my head in the context of this conversation.
For me, Showtime began and ended with Magic's first era here. The highest flying, fastest breaking teams were built of Magic, Coop, Silk and Norman. Byron and James came later, sustaining the image and exchanging a click of the original speed for a click more power.
Joined: 17 Apr 2008 Posts: 4077 Location: New York, NY
Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 8:03 pm Post subject:
I'm glad Kareem -- who, the year he turned 39 - was the first-team All-NBA center in a league that included Hakeem, Ewing, Moses, Parish, is at least being granted a begrudging chance at making the all-star team in today's game where DeMarcus Cousins is an All-Star.
This comparison doesn't totally work and at some point as you go in the past it falls apart a bit, but I think it's occasionally handy. I think most people on this site, especially, would think the 2000 Lakers could compete with the 2015 Golden State Warriors. Right? They'd have a chance, despite changes in style, athleticism, whatever. So go back 15 years from 2000. The 1985 champion Lakers. I'd give them a great chance at competing against the 2000 Lakers, despite changes in style, athleticism, whatever. And so, while comparisons between three eras or three teams don't always work smoothly in real life, I have no problem saying the 1985 Lakers -- or 1982 or 1987 -- would do really, really well in today's game. I do think that guys like Magic, Worthy, and Kareem -- three players who won college championships while competing against the dreaded zone -- would manage to do all right with a month of practice under Riley's tutelage in Hawaii. Of course they might struggle early in the year because of a bunch of torn hamstrings.
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