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non-player zealot
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 Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 11:26 am Post subject: |
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GS hasn't won an LOB yet, haven't since players flew coach. Even if Phil even had the most underhanded role in West's departure (and there were plenty of stated and suggested reasons other than Phil in reality), the Lakers still benefited with 5 titles. With a string of Dunleavy, Harris, Rambis, Tomjanovich, Brown, D'Antoni type coaches (and sorry, Byron), there's a good chance the Lakers would've won zero, with a very plausible chance of outright implosion. They were already headed toward that track when Phil took over.
We already had the cake AND ate it. Can't go back demanding another cake. I'm sure I misapplied and mixed up that saying, but so what. We had a 3 peat and a RE peat. How could we possibly feel spurned? We did more than any other team, OP. We beat em all. Only team that comes close is SA and when it came to direct showdowns between us and them, we even beat them more consistently than any other team in the league.
I'm fine that West may or may not have had to be spared during that era. What's going on NOW is the actual problem.
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kwase
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| Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 11:54 am Post subject: |
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| Yeah OP, it's not Jimbo's fault Jerry West is not here. Him and Phil couldn't get along. I'd love to have Jerry a part of the Lakers for life, but it didn't work out that way. Hell, I wish Chick was still calling the games and Dr Buss was still alive, but sometimes you have to turn the page. Phil brought us 5 rings so at the end of the day as long as turning the page bears success then I'm all for it! I can still love Jerry/Phil for what they've done for this franchise without them no longer being a part of it. |
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C M B
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| Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 12:12 pm Post subject: |
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Not having Jerry West working for us any any capacity hurts. Doesn't matter who else he's working for today. He's one of the greatest pieces of intellectual capital in the league's history. I'd feel better about the Lakers even if he were to simply sit next to the bench for a fixed amount of home games.
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activeverb
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| Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 12:29 pm Post subject: |
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| GoldenThroat wrote: | | rwongega wrote: | | GoldenThroat wrote: | | rwongega wrote: | | I side with Phil. 5 rings is a pretty good haul compared to how West has fared elsewhere. |
Giving credit to Phil for 5 rings without acknowledging that he won with the players that West acquired is a bit dishonest.
Either way, vlf is right. West isn't that involved in GS. |
Of course, one has to also note that the players West acquired didn't win any rings as a Laker until Phil arrived. |
Kobe Bryant had just turned 21 years old when Phil had arrived, and West had assembled multiple title winners prior to Phil's arrival. Again, these are dishonest omissions. The primary reason that Phil Jackson has 11 rings is that he's coached 4 of the Top 25 (and 3 of the Top 10) players of all time, in their prime, and usually two at a time. The fact that this gets glossed over time and time again boggles my mind.
Jerry West was easily more important to our last 5 titles than Phil was, especially the first 3. There are several coaches who could lead prime Shaq & prime Kobe to titles. There aren't many guys that can nab both of them in the same offseason. |
There's plenty of credit to go around. West did a great job assembling the team, Phil did a great job coaching it. Don't know why it has to be an either/or |
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GoldenThroat
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| Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 2:32 pm Post subject: |
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| activeverb wrote: | | GoldenThroat wrote: | | rwongega wrote: | | GoldenThroat wrote: | | rwongega wrote: | | I side with Phil. 5 rings is a pretty good haul compared to how West has fared elsewhere. |
Giving credit to Phil for 5 rings without acknowledging that he won with the players that West acquired is a bit dishonest.
Either way, vlf is right. West isn't that involved in GS. |
Of course, one has to also note that the players West acquired didn't win any rings as a Laker until Phil arrived. |
Kobe Bryant had just turned 21 years old when Phil had arrived, and West had assembled multiple title winners prior to Phil's arrival. Again, these are dishonest omissions. The primary reason that Phil Jackson has 11 rings is that he's coached 4 of the Top 25 (and 3 of the Top 10) players of all time, in their prime, and usually two at a time. The fact that this gets glossed over time and time again boggles my mind.
Jerry West was easily more important to our last 5 titles than Phil was, especially the first 3. There are several coaches who could lead prime Shaq & prime Kobe to titles. There aren't many guys that can nab both of them in the same offseason. |
There's plenty of credit to go around. West did a great job assembling the team, Phil did a great job coaching it. Don't know why it has to be an either/or |
Oh, no doubt about it. But West deserves more of it, IMO, and I bristle at the argument that Phil is validated (and West is dismissed) by winning 5 rings with West's players. |
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activeverb
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| Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 3:02 pm Post subject: |
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| GoldenThroat wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | | GoldenThroat wrote: | | rwongega wrote: | | GoldenThroat wrote: | | rwongega wrote: | | I side with Phil. 5 rings is a pretty good haul compared to how West has fared elsewhere. |
Giving credit to Phil for 5 rings without acknowledging that he won with the players that West acquired is a bit dishonest.
Either way, vlf is right. West isn't that involved in GS. |
Of course, one has to also note that the players West acquired didn't win any rings as a Laker until Phil arrived. |
Kobe Bryant had just turned 21 years old when Phil had arrived, and West had assembled multiple title winners prior to Phil's arrival. Again, these are dishonest omissions. The primary reason that Phil Jackson has 11 rings is that he's coached 4 of the Top 25 (and 3 of the Top 10) players of all time, in their prime, and usually two at a time. The fact that this gets glossed over time and time again boggles my mind.
Jerry West was easily more important to our last 5 titles than Phil was, especially the first 3. There are several coaches who could lead prime Shaq & prime Kobe to titles. There aren't many guys that can nab both of them in the same offseason. |
There's plenty of credit to go around. West did a great job assembling the team, Phil did a great job coaching it. Don't know why it has to be an either/or |
Oh, no doubt about it. But West deserves more of it, IMO, and I bristle at the argument that Phil is validated (and West is dismissed) by winning 5 rings with West's players. |
Both West and Phil were hugely successful before they were ever connected. A great GM and a great coach. |
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Omar Little
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| Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 4:16 pm Post subject: |
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| activeverb wrote: | | GoldenThroat wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | | GoldenThroat wrote: | | rwongega wrote: | | GoldenThroat wrote: | | rwongega wrote: | | I side with Phil. 5 rings is a pretty good haul compared to how West has fared elsewhere. |
Giving credit to Phil for 5 rings without acknowledging that he won with the players that West acquired is a bit dishonest.
Either way, vlf is right. West isn't that involved in GS. |
Of course, one has to also note that the players West acquired didn't win any rings as a Laker until Phil arrived. |
Kobe Bryant had just turned 21 years old when Phil had arrived, and West had assembled multiple title winners prior to Phil's arrival. Again, these are dishonest omissions. The primary reason that Phil Jackson has 11 rings is that he's coached 4 of the Top 25 (and 3 of the Top 10) players of all time, in their prime, and usually two at a time. The fact that this gets glossed over time and time again boggles my mind.
Jerry West was easily more important to our last 5 titles than Phil was, especially the first 3. There are several coaches who could lead prime Shaq & prime Kobe to titles. There aren't many guys that can nab both of them in the same offseason. |
There's plenty of credit to go around. West did a great job assembling the team, Phil did a great job coaching it. Don't know why it has to be an either/or |
Oh, no doubt about it. But West deserves more of it, IMO, and I bristle at the argument that Phil is validated (and West is dismissed) by winning 5 rings with West's players. |
Both West and Phil were hugely successful before they were ever connected. A great GM and a great coach. |
Absolutely. That isn't going to work as a be all end all summation in a discussion of why Jerry West left though. Phil Jackson was great, but he carried a hefty price, beyond money. There is a reason two organizations that had received multiple titles with him as coach were only too fine with seeing him gone, and why Jerry Buss absolutely vetoed him coming back the third time in LA. |
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DaMuleRules
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| Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 6:44 pm Post subject: |
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I think it needs to be noted that while the bulk of the team was assembled by West prior to Phil's arrival, there were a couple of Phil's tweaks to the roster in those first couple of years which contributed greatly to the team going from perennial also rans to a 3-peat juggernaut.
West did a great job. But the idea that Phil simply floated into town and road the coattails of West's team to multiple titles is not accurate.
And it is also worth noting that it was also Phil who wanted to trade Kobe in those first couple of years.
Those several years of success at the turn of the century were clearly due to a convergence of talents - in the FO, the Coaches office and in the locker room. |
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kwase
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| Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 6:54 pm Post subject: |
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| 24 wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | | GoldenThroat wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | | GoldenThroat wrote: | | rwongega wrote: | | GoldenThroat wrote: | | rwongega wrote: | | I side with Phil. 5 rings is a pretty good haul compared to how West has fared elsewhere. |
Giving credit to Phil for 5 rings without acknowledging that he won with the players that West acquired is a bit dishonest.
Either way, vlf is right. West isn't that involved in GS. |
Of course, one has to also note that the players West acquired didn't win any rings as a Laker until Phil arrived. |
Kobe Bryant had just turned 21 years old when Phil had arrived, and West had assembled multiple title winners prior to Phil's arrival. Again, these are dishonest omissions. The primary reason that Phil Jackson has 11 rings is that he's coached 4 of the Top 25 (and 3 of the Top 10) players of all time, in their prime, and usually two at a time. The fact that this gets glossed over time and time again boggles my mind.
Jerry West was easily more important to our last 5 titles than Phil was, especially the first 3. There are several coaches who could lead prime Shaq & prime Kobe to titles. There aren't many guys that can nab both of them in the same offseason. |
There's plenty of credit to go around. West did a great job assembling the team, Phil did a great job coaching it. Don't know why it has to be an either/or |
Oh, no doubt about it. But West deserves more of it, IMO, and I bristle at the argument that Phil is validated (and West is dismissed) by winning 5 rings with West's players. |
Both West and Phil were hugely successful before they were ever connected. A great GM and a great coach. |
Absolutely. That isn't going to work as a be all end all summation in a discussion of why Jerry West left though. Phil Jackson was great, but he carried a hefty price, beyond money. There is a reason two organizations that had received multiple titles with him as coach were only too fine with seeing him gone, and why Jerry Buss absolutely vetoed him coming back the third time in LA. |
Yeah, well I could debate you on that last statement but it's been hashed out on this site a zillion times so let's all just move on from why MDA was brought here and not Phil. However, Jerry Reinsdorf was responsible for Phil not coming back in Chicago and they haven't won a damn thing since. I mean, you had Michael Jordan himself telling the FO that he would retire if they didn't bring him back...and they didn't, citing "Organizations win championships, NOT players"...Well Jerry, how's that been working out for you over the last 15 years?!?! |
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Omar Little
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| Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 10:43 pm Post subject: |
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| kwase wrote: | | 24 wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | | GoldenThroat wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | | GoldenThroat wrote: | | rwongega wrote: | | GoldenThroat wrote: | | rwongega wrote: | | I side with Phil. 5 rings is a pretty good haul compared to how West has fared elsewhere. |
Giving credit to Phil for 5 rings without acknowledging that he won with the players that West acquired is a bit dishonest.
Either way, vlf is right. West isn't that involved in GS. |
Of course, one has to also note that the players West acquired didn't win any rings as a Laker until Phil arrived. |
Kobe Bryant had just turned 21 years old when Phil had arrived, and West had assembled multiple title winners prior to Phil's arrival. Again, these are dishonest omissions. The primary reason that Phil Jackson has 11 rings is that he's coached 4 of the Top 25 (and 3 of the Top 10) players of all time, in their prime, and usually two at a time. The fact that this gets glossed over time and time again boggles my mind.
Jerry West was easily more important to our last 5 titles than Phil was, especially the first 3. There are several coaches who could lead prime Shaq & prime Kobe to titles. There aren't many guys that can nab both of them in the same offseason. |
There's plenty of credit to go around. West did a great job assembling the team, Phil did a great job coaching it. Don't know why it has to be an either/or |
Oh, no doubt about it. But West deserves more of it, IMO, and I bristle at the argument that Phil is validated (and West is dismissed) by winning 5 rings with West's players. |
Both West and Phil were hugely successful before they were ever connected. A great GM and a great coach. |
Absolutely. That isn't going to work as a be all end all summation in a discussion of why Jerry West left though. Phil Jackson was great, but he carried a hefty price, beyond money. There is a reason two organizations that had received multiple titles with him as coach were only too fine with seeing him gone, and why Jerry Buss absolutely vetoed him coming back the third time in LA. |
Yeah, well I could debate you on that last statement but it's been hashed out on this site a zillion times so let's all just move on from why MDA was brought here and not Phil. However, Jerry Reinsdorf was responsible for Phil not coming back in Chicago and they haven't won a damn thing since. I mean, you had Michael Jordan himself telling the FO that he would retire if they didn't bring him back...and they didn't, citing "Organizations win championships, NOT players"...Well Jerry, how's that been working out for you over the last 15 years?!?! |
Fair enough. My larger point is that both guys needed what the other did, but one guy ran the other guy out of town. |
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jodeke
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| Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2015 12:32 pm Post subject: |
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Bottom line: Jerry left because he wanted to. Golden State's probably going to the finals, Lakers will be in the lottery AGAIN
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Voices
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| Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2015 1:25 pm Post subject: |
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JW was never going to report to Jim Buss, JW had front row seats, he knew Jim very well. And please don't tell me JW son is working for the Lakers so that makes Jim and Jerry buddies. JW is a smart man, he got someone to give his son a job, and Jim Buss is even smart at times, give Jerry's son a job and get Jerry West on your side, West will not bite the hand that feeds his son.
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Fan0Bynum17
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| Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2015 1:43 pm Post subject: |
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| You don't even know how involved with West was in their key moves. |
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Gatekeeper
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jodeke
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| Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2015 3:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Fan0Bynum17 wrote: | | You don't even know how involved with West was in their key moves. |
Are you thinking their resurgence since Jerry's arrival is a coincidence?
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America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves. |
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Runway8
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| Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2015 10:42 pm Post subject: |
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| jodeke wrote: | | Fan0Bynum17 wrote: | | You don't even know how involved with West was in their key moves. |
Are you thinking their resurgence since Jerry's arrival is a coincidence? |
The gist of that roster including their would be MVP was already there. He may of had a hand in Klay though. The guy does not walk on water, so yes, it is coincidental. If he had done squat with the Grizzlies, and followed that up with what the Warriors are doing now, then I can see how he might truly walk on water. But his time in Memphis and his picks there were forgettable. He did what Kobe did after a bad game, flushed his time there down the toilet. He had more power and was a real GM in Memphis versus just a consultant with the Warriors. So it's pretty convenient to praise him for all this GS success.
Now I'm not a JW hater, but you guys are making me sound like one. I love JW, as a matter of fact, I'm a PJ hater because he drove out West. I'm simply coming to Jim and Mitch's defense because I find it utterly ridiculous to use Golden State's success and Jerry West's supposed genius as a reason to dog on Jim. |
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Goldenwest
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| Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2015 12:58 am Post subject: |
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I'm happy for Jerry West and his success in GS. I hope they win the championship.
No regrets at all. Jerry had great success in LA and the Lakers had continued success after he left. We can and should right the ship soon (I hope). |
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CabinCreek44
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| Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2015 3:55 am Post subject: |
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It feels as dumb now as when it was allowed to happen.
That said, I'm happy for Jerry that he's having a nice tenure with Golden State. He isn't sitting there twiddling his thumbs, although he certainly isn't running the day to day ops as he did with the Lakers.
http://www.cbssports.com/nba/eye-on-basketball/24704679/report-jerry-west-agrees-to-2-year-extension-with-warriors
Not having him around in recent times has absolutely hurt the cache of the Lakers org. It would mean plenty to have Jerry West in the room when talking to free agents and their reps etc. It wouldn't seem like the rudderless ship that it now appears to be if he were still around.
40 years a Laker, and the NBA logo. He simply never should have been allowed to get away. Period. |
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jodeke
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| Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2015 9:56 am Post subject: |
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| Runway8 wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | Fan0Bynum17 wrote: | | You don't even know how involved with West was in their key moves. |
Are you thinking their resurgence since Jerry's arrival is a coincidence? |
The gist of that roster including their would be MVP was already there. He may of had a hand in Klay though. The guy does not walk on water, so yes, it is coincidental. If he had done squat with the Grizzlies, and followed that up with what the Warriors are doing now, then I can see how he might truly walk on water. But his time in Memphis and his picks there were forgettable. He did what Kobe did after a bad game, flushed his time there down the toilet. He had more power and was a real GM in Memphis versus just a consultant with the Warriors. So it's pretty convenient to praise him for all this GS success.
Now I'm not a JW hater, but you guys are making me sound like one. I love JW, as a matter of fact, I'm a PJ hater because he drove out West. I'm simply coming to Jim and Mitch's defense because I find it utterly ridiculous to use Golden State's success and Jerry West's supposed genius as a reason to dog on Jim. |
If the gist of the roster was already in place do you give his input any weight for it's improvement?
You say he's just a consultant. How much of his input is responsible for the teams improvement. In what areas was he consulted?
Was he instrumental in getting Kerr, who many, including myself, thought was a mistake?
Are you saying he had nothing to do with what the Grizzlies are now?
I'm not using Jerry to dog on Jim. I'm of the school give Jim the three year window he asked for. I believe the path they're on is cloaked.
I see some good young talent that could be the building of a strong bench. A good draft in Randle, a first round pick to add another good young player, money to add good FA's. The chink in the armor is Kobe's contract, which won't be a chink much longer.
Unlike many in the forum, I see a promising future for the organization.
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America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves. |
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Dwarf Nebula
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| Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2015 10:19 am Post subject: |
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| Runway8 wrote: | Jerry is in his mid 70's. He's a paid consultant on a rocking chair. He's has nice picks in his career and some duds as well which people never talk about like Hakeem Warrick, Drew Gooden, how he was over-ruled on Sidney Moncrief over Magic. All his picks in Memphis were not memorable. With the Lakers success, we always drafted in the late first rounds which was a hit or a miss with regards to draft picks. He gets applauded for guys like AC Green, Vlade, etc. But nobody ever touches on Billy Thomas, David Rivers, George Lynch, or how about the Jewish Jordan, Sam Jacobsen? Heck as much as I liked Anthony Peeler, that wasn't a good pick either in hindsight of what was available.
I guess when he's in his 80's and slaps his brand-name somewhere on some teams' payroll, the lip service will continue as well. "Lip service" is a life time benefit for all hall of famers. But just have some perspective man when you're doling it out. The guy is not completely responsible for GS's success, and Jim Buss isn't responsible for all the wars and famine on earth either. |
So I guess he gets no credit for Cooper, Rambis, trading for Kobe, Scott, M. Thompson, Mcadoo, Woolridge and signing Shaq. SMH. |
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jodeke
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| Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2015 10:34 am Post subject: |
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| Dwarf Nebula wrote: | | Runway8 wrote: | Jerry is in his mid 70's. He's a paid consultant on a rocking chair. He's has nice picks in his career and some duds as well which people never talk about like Hakeem Warrick, Drew Gooden, how he was over-ruled on Sidney Moncrief over Magic. All his picks in Memphis were not memorable. With the Lakers success, we always drafted in the late first rounds which was a hit or a miss with regards to draft picks. He gets applauded for guys like AC Green, Vlade, etc. But nobody ever touches on Billy Thomas, David Rivers, George Lynch, or how about the Jewish Jordan, Sam Jacobsen? Heck as much as I liked Anthony Peeler, that wasn't a good pick either in hindsight of what was available.
I guess when he's in his 80's and slaps his brand-name somewhere on some teams' payroll, the lip service will continue as well. "Lip service" is a life time benefit for all hall of famers. But just have some perspective man when you're doling it out. The guy is not completely responsible for GS's success, and Jim Buss isn't responsible for all the wars and famine on earth either. |
So I guess he gets no credit for Cooper, Rambis, trading for Kobe, Scott, M. Thompson, Mcadoo, Woolridge and signing Shaq. SMH. |
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Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves. |
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Omar Little
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| Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2015 1:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Dwarf Nebula wrote: | | Runway8 wrote: | Jerry is in his mid 70's. He's a paid consultant on a rocking chair. He's has nice picks in his career and some duds as well which people never talk about like Hakeem Warrick, Drew Gooden, how he was over-ruled on Sidney Moncrief over Magic. All his picks in Memphis were not memorable. With the Lakers success, we always drafted in the late first rounds which was a hit or a miss with regards to draft picks. He gets applauded for guys like AC Green, Vlade, etc. But nobody ever touches on Billy Thomas, David Rivers, George Lynch, or how about the Jewish Jordan, Sam Jacobsen? Heck as much as I liked Anthony Peeler, that wasn't a good pick either in hindsight of what was available.
I guess when he's in his 80's and slaps his brand-name somewhere on some teams' payroll, the lip service will continue as well. "Lip service" is a life time benefit for all hall of famers. But just have some perspective man when you're doling it out. The guy is not completely responsible for GS's success, and Jim Buss isn't responsible for all the wars and famine on earth either. |
So I guess he gets no credit for Cooper, Rambis, trading for Kobe, Scott, M. Thompson, Mcadoo, Woolridge and signing Shaq. SMH. |
I get your general point, but Rambis, Cooper, and MacAdoo were already there when he took over. |
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activeverb
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| Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2015 3:17 pm Post subject: |
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| jodeke wrote: | | Runway8 wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | Fan0Bynum17 wrote: | | You don't even know how involved with West was in their key moves. |
Are you thinking their resurgence since Jerry's arrival is a coincidence? |
The gist of that roster including their would be MVP was already there. He may of had a hand in Klay though. The guy does not walk on water, so yes, it is coincidental. If he had done squat with the Grizzlies, and followed that up with what the Warriors are doing now, then I can see how he might truly walk on water. But his time in Memphis and his picks there were forgettable. He did what Kobe did after a bad game, flushed his time there down the toilet. He had more power and was a real GM in Memphis versus just a consultant with the Warriors. So it's pretty convenient to praise him for all this GS success.
Now I'm not a JW hater, but you guys are making me sound like one. I love JW, as a matter of fact, I'm a PJ hater because he drove out West. I'm simply coming to Jim and Mitch's defense because I find it utterly ridiculous to use Golden State's success and Jerry West's supposed genius as a reason to dog on Jim. |
If the gist of the roster was already in place do you give his input any weight for it's improvement?
You say he's just a consultant. How much of his input is responsible for the teams improvement. In what areas was he consulted?
Was he instrumental in getting Kerr, who many, including myself, thought was a mistake?
Are you saying he had nothing to do with what the Grizzlies are now?
I'm not using Jerry to dog on Jim. I'm of the school give Jim the three year window he asked for. I believe the path they're on is cloaked.
I see some good young talent that could be the building of a strong bench. A good draft in Randle, a first round pick to add another good young player, money to add good FA's. The chink in the armor is Kobe's contract, which won't be a chink much longer.
Unlike many in the forum, I see a promising future for the organization. |
Jerry is a great basketball mind, but I have no idea how much credit to give him for the team's success. It would just be an out of thin air guess.
I think it's pointless for people outside an organization to try to apportion credit to different people inside an organization based on guesses of what role they played in various decisions. |
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