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Lakerfan 4 Life
Franchise Player
Joined: 16 Apr 2001
Posts: 16096
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 Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 1:21 pm Post subject: |
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| eureca wrote: | Congrats to Kawhi first finals MVP and now DPY. Its too bad he is restricted this summer  |
Worth the max. Do it, Mitch! |
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Telleris
Star Player
Joined: 28 May 2013
Posts: 2371
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| Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 1:45 pm Post subject: |
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| the association wrote: | | Hawkins wrote: | | DPOY and FMVP and still not an All Star....I guess that's going to change next year. |
IMO, the inference that All Star game appearances is a reputable barometer of value (one that's been made by several others here with regard to Kawhi's market value over the past few weeks) is off the mark ... as far as I'm concerned, the voting tally of (sometimes irrational) fans ≠ anything of consequence.
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most of the players in an all star game are there by coach vote
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I believe everything the media tells me except for anything for which I have direct personal knowledge, which they always get wrong |
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the association
Star Player
Joined: 03 Feb 2015
Posts: 1982
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| Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 2:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Telleris wrote: | | the association wrote: | | Hawkins wrote: | | DPOY and FMVP and still not an All Star....I guess that's going to change next year. |
IMO, the inference that All Star game appearances is a reputable barometer of value (one that's been made by several others here with regard to Kawhi's market value over the past few weeks) is off the mark ... as far as I'm concerned, the voting tally of (sometimes irrational) fans ≠ anything of consequence.
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most of the players in an all star game are there by coach vote |
Right ... that fact was highlighted earlier.
I'll restate my position: as far as I'm concerned, the voting tally of (sometimes irrational) fans and NBA coaches (or their proxies) ≠ anything of consequence.
IMO, the fact of Kawhi having never been voted, selected or appointed to an All Star team is a poor consideration for making the determination of whether to offer him a max. deal. The primary consideration, from a basketball perspective, should always be: 1. What has he already accomplished?; 2) what is his realistic trajectory? (which relies tremendously on his age, of course, but also his achievement capacity); and 3) what level of competition exists for his services? ...
If people want to harp on max. deals, I suggest they spend some time with Gordon Hayward or even the bloated, completely wasteful veteran contracts we've been suffering through over the past four or five years (as rivals to the Knicks for most ineffective payroll for the past 1/2 decade) ...
It's similar to acquiring a business asset - the financial models that are based on projected future performance are the lion's share of your valuation efforts, but you're still going to drive a valuation based on TTM EBITDA down the seller's throat ...
For Kawhi, unless his progress unravels: he's getting software multiples for the next 10 years of contract negotiations ... |
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Telleris
Star Player
Joined: 28 May 2013
Posts: 2371
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| Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 2:39 pm Post subject: |
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Max deals this year are a little more fickle than previous years given the cap is expected to raise by $20m a year for 2 years, i think Draymond Green (barring a catastrophic injury) will get a 2015-16 max deal, Wesley Matthews would have likely got one too prior to his achilles.
I fully expect Kawhi to get a 5 year max from San Antonio, I've been under the impression he didn't get an extension because they wanted to use the cap hold differential between a QO and the eventual contract for free agent acquisitions (with the likely retirements of Duncan and Manu).
As for the long term, I'm not so sure, that he's never played more than 66 games (and not by virtue of rest) in a season is a bit of a red flag, not so much for his next deal but down the track it's likely to get worse.
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I believe everything the media tells me except for anything for which I have direct personal knowledge, which they always get wrong |
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nevitt_smrek
Star Player
Joined: 15 Jun 2009
Posts: 2803
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| Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 2:40 pm Post subject: |
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Green deserved to finish higher than Leonard, imb.
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the association
Star Player
Joined: 03 Feb 2015
Posts: 1982
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| Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 3:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Telleris wrote: | Max deals this year are a little more fickle than previous years given the cap is expected to raise by $20m a year for 2 years, i think Draymond Green (barring a catastrophic injury) will get a 2015-16 max deal, Wesley Matthews would have likely got one too prior to his achilles.
I fully expect Kawhi to get a 5 year max from San Antonio, I've been under the impression he didn't get an extension because they wanted to use the cap hold differential between a QO and the eventual contract for free agent acquisitions (with the likely retirements of Duncan and Manu).
As for the long term, I'm not so sure, that he's never played more than 66 games (and not by virtue of rest) in a season is a bit of a red flag, not so much for his next deal but down the track it's likely to get worse. |
I have to agree with 100% of the above re: Kawhi, though I think it's relevant to point out that he only missed 2 games in his rookie season (during the strike-shortened 66 game schedule) ... and I continue to have some concerns that his playing time and absences are often driven by the organization's strategies for managing player wear-and-tear, as opposed to his actual injury history. |
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defense
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Joined: 12 Jan 2010
Posts: 39400
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| Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 6:20 pm Post subject: |
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Draymond plays with Bogut, Thompson and Curry
all good defenders |
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Bard207
Star Player
Joined: 08 Jan 2013
Posts: 7713
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| Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 6:44 pm Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | USCandLakers wrote: | | I wonder how we can get one of these. Maybe there's a future DPOY in the draft somewhere. You know, somewhere in the top 5...Perhaps the guy who won the college DPOY this season? *ahem* |
4 out of the top 5 are players only a few years in, something for the FO to think about at draft time. |
Yes and all are in the Western Conference. |
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Telleris
Star Player
Joined: 28 May 2013
Posts: 2371
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| Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 7:50 pm Post subject: |
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| defense wrote: | Draymond plays with Bogut, Thompson and Curry
all good defenders |
Draymond's job is to basically be the cover for Curry on defense
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I believe everything the media tells me except for anything for which I have direct personal knowledge, which they always get wrong |
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Theseus
Franchise Player
Joined: 15 Dec 2007
Posts: 14110
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| Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 12:44 am Post subject: |
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| the association wrote: | Great accolade for Kawhi, but still somewhat surprising for me ...
The Spurs (and especially Kawhi) seldom engage in politicking for awards (or even attention of ANY kind), so winning the award having played only 64 games (fewest ever played by a DPOY during the 82 game era) is all the more unexpected.
Apparently, the following three individuals have won Finals MVP * and DPOY ** in NBA history:
Michael Jordan
(H)akeem Olajuwon
Kawhi Leonard
* Finals MVP awarded since 1968/1969 season
** Defensive Player of Year (DPOY) awarded since 1982/1983 season
edit: 1969/1969 changed to 1968/1969 in footnote ... |
Interesting. So this makes Kawhi third best all time?
Hakeem
Michael
Kawhi
I can see that |
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the association
Star Player
Joined: 03 Feb 2015
Posts: 1982
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| Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 5:27 am Post subject: |
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| Shlumpledink wrote: | | the association wrote: | Great accolade for Kawhi, but still somewhat surprising for me ...
The Spurs (and especially Kawhi) seldom engage in politicking for awards (or even attention of ANY kind), so winning the award having played only 64 games (fewest ever played by a DPOY during the 82 game era) is all the more unexpected.
Apparently, the following three individuals have won Finals MVP * and DPOY ** in NBA history:
Michael Jordan
(H)akeem Olajuwon
Kawhi Leonard
* Finals MVP awarded since 1968/1969 season
** Defensive Player of Year (DPOY) awarded since 1982/1983 season
edit: 1969/1969 changed to 1968/1969 in footnote ... |
Interesting. So this makes Kawhi third best all time?
Hakeem
Michael
Kawhi
I can see that |
Third best in that three player grouping? Sure ...
1. Jordan
2. Hakeem
3. Kawhi (and ^)
Yeah, I can see that, too ... |
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ribeye
Franchise Player
Joined: 10 Nov 2001
Posts: 12627
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| Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 6:59 am Post subject: |
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Def RPM
D Green 4.63
Leonard 4.92
DJordan 2.18
Def W/S
D Green 5.2
Leonard 4.4
DJordan 5.4
Def WS/48
D Green 0.100
Leonard 0.104
DJordan 0.092
DRtg
D Green 97.2
Leonard 96.4
DJordan 98.5
Team DRtg
Warriors 101.4
SA Spurs 102.0
Clippers 105.5
Def Box +/-
D Green 4.0
Leonard 3.5
DJordan 3.2
82games Opp Production
D Green 13.5
Leonard 10.6
DJordan 17.5
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"A metronome keeps time by using a Ringo" |
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LakerLanny
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Joined: 24 Oct 2001
Posts: 47578
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| Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 7:07 am Post subject: |
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| gill2k wrote: | | He's an awesome talent on both ends of the floor but I didn't see anything special he did all year to earn the nod. Draymond Green had more of an impact with GSW this year and DeAndre's always the Clipps' defensive anchor every year. |
It is debatable but Kawhi did lead the league in steals I believe and unlike Jordan and Green, he has to guard perimeter players more often which is the toughest defensive assignment in the league by far.
Dude is a beast and is doing Aztec Nation very proud. I admire his game and the way he conducts himself, he is a class act.
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Oliver Reed
Star Player
Joined: 28 Sep 2014
Posts: 2626
Location: Globo Gym
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| Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 4:31 pm Post subject: |
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Any chance SA doesn't match a max deal from another team?
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12
Star Player
Joined: 03 Sep 2010
Posts: 8617
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| Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 6:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Green got robbed.. Who the hell is voting on these? |
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LakerLanny
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Joined: 24 Oct 2001
Posts: 47578
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| Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 7:16 pm Post subject: |
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Kawhi dominating tonight. 23 years old.
We need to build it around the young core, Randle, Winslow/Okafor/Towns/Russell, Clarkson, Black, maybe Jabari Brown.
Everyone else is expendable although I actually wouldn't mind Lin or Davis back on Laker friendly deals.
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focus
Star Player
Joined: 23 May 2012
Posts: 2526
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| Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 9:37 pm Post subject: |
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| LakerLanny wrote: | | gill2k wrote: | | He's an awesome talent on both ends of the floor but I didn't see anything special he did all year to earn the nod. Draymond Green had more of an impact with GSW this year and DeAndre's always the Clipps' defensive anchor every year. |
It is debatable but Kawhi did lead the league in steals I believe and unlike Jordan and Green, he has to guard perimeter players more often which is the toughest defensive assignment in the league by far.
Dude is a beast and is doing Aztec Nation very proud. I admire his game and the way he conducts himself, he is a class act. |
Feel the same way or moreso about Lenard, but think you are seeing him and Green as same position. Draymond plays more of a PF defensively, though he handles ball some on offense. Dont see Lenard defending bigs like ADavis or Alridge or Zach Randolph big dudes. Green does defend guards too though, but Warriors have great D overall. Some guy in media said he just forgot Green entirely in DPOY voting, and so left him off, probably costing Green the award. That's another way of saying these awards based on media votes are not that worthwhile as it seems.
Wish we had Lenard (and someone who wouldnt waste his talents and potential to coach and GM him). |
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jodeke
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Joined: 17 Nov 2007
Posts: 67574
Location: In a world where admitting to not knowing something is considered a great way to learn.
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| Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2015 4:23 pm Post subject: |
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How does SA keep filling key spots with outstanding talent? I don't think any or many thought Leonard would be the player he's turning out to be.
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Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves. |
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ZenMaster4President
Starting Rotation
Joined: 26 Jun 2005
Posts: 966
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| Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2015 5:47 pm Post subject: |
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It's not finding them that is the problem. It's letting them develop and not bringing in 20mil/year players playing the same position.
SMDH. |
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OCWA
Star Player
Joined: 23 Jan 2006
Posts: 3660
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| Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2015 6:37 pm Post subject: |
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| jodeke wrote: | | How does SA keep filling key spots with outstanding talent? |
10 guys in a bar. |
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jodeke
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Joined: 17 Nov 2007
Posts: 67574
Location: In a world where admitting to not knowing something is considered a great way to learn.
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| Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2015 10:14 am Post subject: |
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| ZenMaster4President wrote: | It's not finding them that is the problem. It's letting them develop and not bringing in 20mil/year players playing the same position.
SMDH. |
Good point. SA management is top of the line. I know people say Phil is the GOAT, I put Pop right there with him. Not as many rings, not as much talent, achievements in one place.
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Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves. |
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