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ringfinger
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Joined: 08 Oct 2013
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 Posted: Tue May 19, 2015 12:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Aussiesuede wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: |
A civilized society wouldn't produce mass murderers. So perhaps we're not as civilized as we think we are. |
1) We DEFINITELY are NOT as civilised as we think we are.
2) Society doesn't produce mass murderer's. That's a proclivity that comes from self. There is no way to weed out that proclivity at this stage of our evolution. It might be gene driven, or it might be up to simple chance. Most people will simply pattern based upon what they are taught by parents, and augmented by the environment of their upbringing. Some, a minority amongst us, will choose an independent path regardless of those influences. Everything that occurred in my early life usually produces a conservative, religious, breeder. The patterning took with my sisters, but never even entered the equation with me. I was hardwired to choose my own path regardless of the rather extreme attempts by my parents to get the patterning to take. |
Regarding your second point -- if it were gene driven, wouldn't we have an equal number of mass murderers (per capita) in each nation?
We've got a lot more violence here in the U.S. than a lot of other countries. |
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ocho
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Joined: 24 May 2005
Posts: 53794
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| Posted: Tue May 19, 2015 12:42 pm Post subject: |
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| jodeke wrote: | | DaMuleRules wrote: | | ocho wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | LarryCoon wrote: | | ocho wrote: | | Oliver Reed wrote: | | ^^^Then you are a better man then I am |
Btw if that really had happened to a member of my family and you ask me the same question that day, I might sing a different tune out of emotion and anger. We have to strive to be better than our worst impulses, especially when it is least convenient. |
In addition, this is a case in point for why the families of murder victims aren't the best choice for determining the punishment for the murderers. If it was a member of my family, death wouldn't be good enough. I'd want it to be cruel and unusual. It's an occasion where I wouldn't be of a rational mind to make what needs to be a rational decision. |
Solitary confinement is considered "cruel and unusual" punishment by some. I personally believe, for someone like Dzhokhar Tsarnaev it would fit the bill.
No human contact, exception guards, no radio, TV, Internet, complete isolation from the outside world. Only existence would be with self.
Locked down 24/7, given 1 hour a day to exercise. Tsarnaev would have to live with himself with nothing but time to think about what he did and the consequences. |
Excessive solitary confinement is torture. A civilized society doesn't condone or support torture. |
Exactly. |
In the case of Tsarnaev I would deem solitary confinement acceptable.
He's a person I'd want to live not die. I want him to suffer for his indiscretion.
Those affected by the bombing are suffering, IMO, he should too.
Relating to that civilized society how many things are done that are not civilized? Make a list!!! |
Sounds like your'e pro-torture. If you think torture is wrong you can't participate in it yourself, even if you feel justified and even if the person you want to torture is really bad. We don't need to lower ourselves into the depths of something as heinous as torture in order to make him suffer. Prison would provide him plenty of suffering anyway. |
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Aussiesuede
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Joined: 27 Jul 2005
Posts: 10964
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| Posted: Tue May 19, 2015 12:48 pm Post subject: |
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| ringfinger wrote: | | Aussiesuede wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: |
A civilized society wouldn't produce mass murderers. So perhaps we're not as civilized as we think we are. |
1) We DEFINITELY are NOT as civilised as we think we are.
2) Society doesn't produce mass murderer's. That's a proclivity that comes from self. There is no way to weed out that proclivity at this stage of our evolution. It might be gene driven, or it might be up to simple chance. Most people will simply pattern based upon what they are taught by parents, and augmented by the environment of their upbringing. Some, a minority amongst us, will choose an independent path regardless of those influences. Everything that occurred in my early life usually produces a conservative, religious, breeder. The patterning took with my sisters, but never even entered the equation with me. I was hardwired to choose my own path regardless of the rather extreme attempts by my parents to get the patterning to take. |
Regarding your second point -- if it were gene driven, wouldn't we have an equal number of mass murderers (per capita) in each nation?
We've got a lot more violence here in the U.S. than a lot of other countries. |
We've a lot more reported violence. Having traveled as extensively as I have, I can tell you that the US is not as substantially more violent than the rest of the western world as statistics might suggest. The big difference is we can afford the mechanisms which support reporting, tracking, administering, and sadly - abusing a criminal justice system. Russia is a prime example. Russia A LOT MORE violent society that is the US, yet if one simply goes by the numbers, it would suggest otherwise. And one thing that really skews our violence outlook, is the existence of the abundance of fire arms we have. This results in altercations which would produce injury in other societies, instead resulting in death here. Guns make us a more deadly society, but not a more violent one. Our embrace and comfort with violence most accounts for the small disparity which exist in violence levels.
_________________
I'm On point, On task, On message, and Off drugs. A Streetwise Smart Bomb, Out of rehab and In denial. Over the Top, On the edge, Under the Radar, and In Control. Behind the 8 ball, Ahead of the Curve and I've got a Love Child who sends me Hate mail. |
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jodeke
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Joined: 17 Nov 2007
Posts: 67621
Location: In a world where admitting to not knowing something is considered a great way to learn.
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| Posted: Tue May 19, 2015 12:52 pm Post subject: |
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| ocho wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | DaMuleRules wrote: | | ocho wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | LarryCoon wrote: | | ocho wrote: | | Oliver Reed wrote: | | ^^^Then you are a better man then I am |
Btw if that really had happened to a member of my family and you ask me the same question that day, I might sing a different tune out of emotion and anger. We have to strive to be better than our worst impulses, especially when it is least convenient. |
In addition, this is a case in point for why the families of murder victims aren't the best choice for determining the punishment for the murderers. If it was a member of my family, death wouldn't be good enough. I'd want it to be cruel and unusual. It's an occasion where I wouldn't be of a rational mind to make what needs to be a rational decision. |
Solitary confinement is considered "cruel and unusual" punishment by some. I personally believe, for someone like Dzhokhar Tsarnaev it would fit the bill.
No human contact, exception guards, no radio, TV, Internet, complete isolation from the outside world. Only existence would be with self.
Locked down 24/7, given 1 hour a day to exercise. Tsarnaev would have to live with himself with nothing but time to think about what he did and the consequences. |
Excessive solitary confinement is torture. A civilized society doesn't condone or support torture. |
Exactly. |
In the case of Tsarnaev I would deem solitary confinement acceptable.
He's a person I'd want to live not die. I want him to suffer for his indiscretion.
Those affected by the bombing are suffering, IMO, he should too.
Relating to that civilized society how many things are done that are not civilized? Make a list!!! |
Sounds like your'e pro-torture. If you think torture is wrong you can't participate in it yourself, even if you feel justified and even if the person you want to torture is really bad. We don't need to lower ourselves into the depths of something as heinous as torture in order to make him suffer. Prison would provide him plenty of suffering anyway. |
I'm not pro torture, I'm talking about an exception to the rule.
We're in concert with most of what you posted. I'm straying in the case of Tsarnaev and sinking into the abyss you related to.
He's a person I want to see suffer. Barbaric, yes. Do I want to see it done? A capital YES
_________________
Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.
Last edited by jodeke on Tue May 19, 2015 1:03 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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ringfinger
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Joined: 08 Oct 2013
Posts: 29418
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| Posted: Tue May 19, 2015 12:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Aussiesuede wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | | Aussiesuede wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: |
A civilized society wouldn't produce mass murderers. So perhaps we're not as civilized as we think we are. |
1) We DEFINITELY are NOT as civilised as we think we are.
2) Society doesn't produce mass murderer's. That's a proclivity that comes from self. There is no way to weed out that proclivity at this stage of our evolution. It might be gene driven, or it might be up to simple chance. Most people will simply pattern based upon what they are taught by parents, and augmented by the environment of their upbringing. Some, a minority amongst us, will choose an independent path regardless of those influences. Everything that occurred in my early life usually produces a conservative, religious, breeder. The patterning took with my sisters, but never even entered the equation with me. I was hardwired to choose my own path regardless of the rather extreme attempts by my parents to get the patterning to take. |
Regarding your second point -- if it were gene driven, wouldn't we have an equal number of mass murderers (per capita) in each nation?
We've got a lot more violence here in the U.S. than a lot of other countries. |
We've a lot more reported violence. Having traveled as extensively as I have, I can tell you that the US is not as substantially more violent than the rest of the western world as statistics might suggest. The big difference is we can afford the mechanisms which support reporting, tracking, administering, and sadly - abusing a criminal justice system. Russia is a prime example. Russia A LOT MORE violent society that is the US, yet if one simply goes by the numbers, it would suggest otherwise. And one thing that really skews our violence outlook, is the existence of the abundance of fire arms we have. This results in altercations which would produce injury in other societies, instead resulting in death here. Guns make us a more deadly society, but not a more violent one. Our embrace and comfort with violence most accounts for the small disparity which exist in violence levels. |
So, if AussieSuede were to get his by a bus, how would we ever know how much violence there actually is from country to country?
It's hard for me to believe what you're saying. I've lived abroad as well, and for the most part, I feel the numbers line up with the observational method. Switzerland is numerically safer and seems so. Japan is numerically safer and seems so.
Do you really think they are genetically different than Americans? |
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ocho
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Joined: 24 May 2005
Posts: 53794
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| Posted: Tue May 19, 2015 12:56 pm Post subject: |
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| jodeke wrote: | | ocho wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | DaMuleRules wrote: | | ocho wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | LarryCoon wrote: | | ocho wrote: | | Oliver Reed wrote: | | ^^^Then you are a better man then I am |
Btw if that really had happened to a member of my family and you ask me the same question that day, I might sing a different tune out of emotion and anger. We have to strive to be better than our worst impulses, especially when it is least convenient. |
In addition, this is a case in point for why the families of murder victims aren't the best choice for determining the punishment for the murderers. If it was a member of my family, death wouldn't be good enough. I'd want it to be cruel and unusual. It's an occasion where I wouldn't be of a rational mind to make what needs to be a rational decision. |
Solitary confinement is considered "cruel and unusual" punishment by some. I personally believe, for someone like Dzhokhar Tsarnaev it would fit the bill.
No human contact, exception guards, no radio, TV, Internet, complete isolation from the outside world. Only existence would be with self.
Locked down 24/7, given 1 hour a day to exercise. Tsarnaev would have to live with himself with nothing but time to think about what he did and the consequences. |
Excessive solitary confinement is torture. A civilized society doesn't condone or support torture. |
Exactly. |
In the case of Tsarnaev I would deem solitary confinement acceptable.
He's a person I'd want to live not die. I want him to suffer for his indiscretion.
Those affected by the bombing are suffering, IMO, he should too.
Relating to that civilized society how many things are done that are not civilized? Make a list!!! |
Sounds like your'e pro-torture. If you think torture is wrong you can't participate in it yourself, even if you feel justified and even if the person you want to torture is really bad. We don't need to lower ourselves into the depths of something as heinous as torture in order to make him suffer. Prison would provide him plenty of suffering anyway. |
I'm not pro torture, I'm talking about an exception to the rule.
We're in concert with most of what you posted. I'm straying in the case of Tsarnaev and sinking into the abyss you related to.
He's a person I want to see suffer. Barbaric, yes. Do I want to see it done? a capital YES |
You can't have values that you abandon when they're inconvenient. That's what makes them values. Wanting to see him tortured is somewhat understandable. Actually going through with it makes you a torturer, plunging to the depths of the very kind of evil Tsarnaev engages in. We should rise above his kind of depravity, not sink to it. |
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Omar Little
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Joined: 02 May 2005
Posts: 90306
Location: Formerly Known As 24
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| Posted: Tue May 19, 2015 12:56 pm Post subject: |
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| jodeke wrote: | | ocho wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | DaMuleRules wrote: | | ocho wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | LarryCoon wrote: | | ocho wrote: | | Oliver Reed wrote: | | ^^^Then you are a better man then I am |
Btw if that really had happened to a member of my family and you ask me the same question that day, I might sing a different tune out of emotion and anger. We have to strive to be better than our worst impulses, especially when it is least convenient. |
In addition, this is a case in point for why the families of murder victims aren't the best choice for determining the punishment for the murderers. If it was a member of my family, death wouldn't be good enough. I'd want it to be cruel and unusual. It's an occasion where I wouldn't be of a rational mind to make what needs to be a rational decision. |
Solitary confinement is considered "cruel and unusual" punishment by some. I personally believe, for someone like Dzhokhar Tsarnaev it would fit the bill.
No human contact, exception guards, no radio, TV, Internet, complete isolation from the outside world. Only existence would be with self.
Locked down 24/7, given 1 hour a day to exercise. Tsarnaev would have to live with himself with nothing but time to think about what he did and the consequences. |
Excessive solitary confinement is torture. A civilized society doesn't condone or support torture. |
Exactly. |
In the case of Tsarnaev I would deem solitary confinement acceptable.
He's a person I'd want to live not die. I want him to suffer for his indiscretion.
Those affected by the bombing are suffering, IMO, he should too.
Relating to that civilized society how many things are done that are not civilized? Make a list!!! |
Sounds like your'e pro-torture. If you think torture is wrong you can't participate in it yourself, even if you feel justified and even if the person you want to torture is really bad. We don't need to lower ourselves into the depths of something as heinous as torture in order to make him suffer. Prison would provide him plenty of suffering anyway. |
I'm not pro torture, I'm talking about an exception to the rule.
We're in concert with most of what you posted. I'm straying in the case of Tsarnaev and sinking into the abyss you related to.
He's a person I want to see suffer. Barbaric, yes. Do I want to see it done? a capital YES |
And sound policy should be made on the fact that it is barbaric, not the feelings of acceptability toward the barbarism. It is the same principal by which we tell people that if they know something to be wrong, feeling like doing it anyway is not justification to do it. |
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ringfinger
Retired Number
Joined: 08 Oct 2013
Posts: 29418
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| Posted: Tue May 19, 2015 1:00 pm Post subject: |
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| ocho wrote: | | You can't have values that you abandon when they're inconvenient. That's what makes them values. Wanting to see him tortured is somewhat understandable. Actually going through with it makes you a torturer, plunging to the depths of the very kind of evil Tsarnaev engages in. We should rise above his kind of depravity, not sink to it. |
This is so silly. If the guy wants to torture Tsarnaev, that doesn't make him Tsarnaev incarnate. Cmon.
I guess this is the part where now we have to abolish prisons, because imprisoning people means we are holding people against their will aka kidnappers.
There's a time and a place for exceptions. You're right, you don't abandon them when they're inconvenient (although, I'd argue with your point that one cannot because I know many people who in fact, do) -- but Tsarnaev isn't an inconvenience. He's an exception. |
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Aussiesuede
Franchise Player
Joined: 27 Jul 2005
Posts: 10964
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| Posted: Tue May 19, 2015 1:03 pm Post subject: |
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| ringfinger wrote: | | Aussiesuede wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | | Aussiesuede wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: |
A civilized society wouldn't produce mass murderers. So perhaps we're not as civilized as we think we are. |
1) We DEFINITELY are NOT as civilised as we think we are.
2) Society doesn't produce mass murderer's. That's a proclivity that comes from self. There is no way to weed out that proclivity at this stage of our evolution. It might be gene driven, or it might be up to simple chance. Most people will simply pattern based upon what they are taught by parents, and augmented by the environment of their upbringing. Some, a minority amongst us, will choose an independent path regardless of those influences. Everything that occurred in my early life usually produces a conservative, religious, breeder. The patterning took with my sisters, but never even entered the equation with me. I was hardwired to choose my own path regardless of the rather extreme attempts by my parents to get the patterning to take. |
Regarding your second point -- if it were gene driven, wouldn't we have an equal number of mass murderers (per capita) in each nation?
We've got a lot more violence here in the U.S. than a lot of other countries. |
We've a lot more reported violence. Having traveled as extensively as I have, I can tell you that the US is not as substantially more violent than the rest of the western world as statistics might suggest. The big difference is we can afford the mechanisms which support reporting, tracking, administering, and sadly - abusing a criminal justice system. Russia is a prime example. Russia A LOT MORE violent society that is the US, yet if one simply goes by the numbers, it would suggest otherwise. And one thing that really skews our violence outlook, is the existence of the abundance of fire arms we have. This results in altercations which would produce injury in other societies, instead resulting in death here. Guns make us a more deadly society, but not a more violent one. Our embrace and comfort with violence most accounts for the small disparity which exist in violence levels. |
So, if AussieSuede were to get his by a bus, how would we ever know how much violence there actually is from country to country?
It's hard for me to believe what you're saying. I've lived abroad as well, and for the most part, I feel the numbers line up with the observational method. Switzerland is numerically safer and seems so. Japan is numerically safer and seems so.
Do you really think they are genetically different than Americans? |
No. I think they are part of a culture that does not embrace violence the way American culture does. Most societies consider that a child seeing a nipple on television is less damaging than seeing someone getting killed. The opposite is true in America.
Germany, the Netherlands, and Switzerland are home to the largest Biker Gangs in Europe. They are involved in drug trafficking, prostitution, and a myriad of other illicit activities. And they most definitely DO fight. The same is true of American Biker gangs, but as we saw this past weekend, add guns to the mix and things fly out of control in a big hurry. But the fact of the matter is that these biker gang killings are the exception to the rule. Most of the time, even here in the good ole USA, the bikers choose to slug it out, just like they do in Germany, the Netherlands, and Switzerland. European societies don't sensationalise their violence the way we do.
So having traveled, answer this question:
Order the following cities based on where you are most likely to experience an unwanted touching of your person:
Houston
San Francisco
Tokyo
Sydney
Moscow
Frankfurt
Buenos Aires
Lisbon
Paris
Seattle
And let's be clear, the world doesn't want AussieSuede to get hit by a bus. It would be rudderless. 
_________________
I'm On point, On task, On message, and Off drugs. A Streetwise Smart Bomb, Out of rehab and In denial. Over the Top, On the edge, Under the Radar, and In Control. Behind the 8 ball, Ahead of the Curve and I've got a Love Child who sends me Hate mail.
Last edited by Aussiesuede on Tue May 19, 2015 1:22 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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jodeke
Retired Number
Joined: 17 Nov 2007
Posts: 67621
Location: In a world where admitting to not knowing something is considered a great way to learn.
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| Posted: Tue May 19, 2015 1:07 pm Post subject: |
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| ocho wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | ocho wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | DaMuleRules wrote: | | ocho wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | LarryCoon wrote: | | ocho wrote: | | Oliver Reed wrote: | | ^^^Then you are a better man then I am |
Btw if that really had happened to a member of my family and you ask me the same question that day, I might sing a different tune out of emotion and anger. We have to strive to be better than our worst impulses, especially when it is least convenient. |
In addition, this is a case in point for why the families of murder victims aren't the best choice for determining the punishment for the murderers. If it was a member of my family, death wouldn't be good enough. I'd want it to be cruel and unusual. It's an occasion where I wouldn't be of a rational mind to make what needs to be a rational decision. |
Solitary confinement is considered "cruel and unusual" punishment by some. I personally believe, for someone like Dzhokhar Tsarnaev it would fit the bill.
No human contact, exception guards, no radio, TV, Internet, complete isolation from the outside world. Only existence would be with self.
Locked down 24/7, given 1 hour a day to exercise. Tsarnaev would have to live with himself with nothing but time to think about what he did and the consequences. |
Excessive solitary confinement is torture. A civilized society doesn't condone or support torture. |
Exactly. |
In the case of Tsarnaev I would deem solitary confinement acceptable.
He's a person I'd want to live not die. I want him to suffer for his indiscretion.
Those affected by the bombing are suffering, IMO, he should too.
Relating to that civilized society how many things are done that are not civilized? Make a list!!! |
Sounds like your'e pro-torture. If you think torture is wrong you can't participate in it yourself, even if you feel justified and even if the person you want to torture is really bad. We don't need to lower ourselves into the depths of something as heinous as torture in order to make him suffer. Prison would provide him plenty of suffering anyway. |
I'm not pro torture, I'm talking about an exception to the rule.
We're in concert with most of what you posted. I'm straying in the case of Tsarnaev and sinking into the abyss you related to.
He's a person I want to see suffer. Barbaric, yes. Do I want to see it done? a capital YES |
You can't have values that you abandon when they're inconvenient. That's what makes them values. Wanting to see him tortured is somewhat understandable. Actually going through with it makes you a torturer, plunging to the depths of the very kind of evil Tsarnaev engages in. We should rise above his kind of depravity, not sink to it. |
Guilty as charged. I agree with your definition of my becoming a Tsarnaev. I won't apologize for it. It's something I feel knowing it's against all of what I am.
_________________
Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves. |
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jodeke
Retired Number
Joined: 17 Nov 2007
Posts: 67621
Location: In a world where admitting to not knowing something is considered a great way to learn.
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| Posted: Tue May 19, 2015 1:10 pm Post subject: |
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| 24 wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | ocho wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | DaMuleRules wrote: | | ocho wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | LarryCoon wrote: | | ocho wrote: | | Oliver Reed wrote: | | ^^^Then you are a better man then I am |
Btw if that really had happened to a member of my family and you ask me the same question that day, I might sing a different tune out of emotion and anger. We have to strive to be better than our worst impulses, especially when it is least convenient. |
In addition, this is a case in point for why the families of murder victims aren't the best choice for determining the punishment for the murderers. If it was a member of my family, death wouldn't be good enough. I'd want it to be cruel and unusual. It's an occasion where I wouldn't be of a rational mind to make what needs to be a rational decision. |
Solitary confinement is considered "cruel and unusual" punishment by some. I personally believe, for someone like Dzhokhar Tsarnaev it would fit the bill.
No human contact, exception guards, no radio, TV, Internet, complete isolation from the outside world. Only existence would be with self.
Locked down 24/7, given 1 hour a day to exercise. Tsarnaev would have to live with himself with nothing but time to think about what he did and the consequences. |
Excessive solitary confinement is torture. A civilized society doesn't condone or support torture. |
Exactly. |
In the case of Tsarnaev I would deem solitary confinement acceptable.
He's a person I'd want to live not die. I want him to suffer for his indiscretion.
Those affected by the bombing are suffering, IMO, he should too.
Relating to that civilized society how many things are done that are not civilized? Make a list!!! |
Sounds like your'e pro-torture. If you think torture is wrong you can't participate in it yourself, even if you feel justified and even if the person you want to torture is really bad. We don't need to lower ourselves into the depths of something as heinous as torture in order to make him suffer. Prison would provide him plenty of suffering anyway. |
I'm not pro torture, I'm talking about an exception to the rule.
We're in concert with most of what you posted. I'm straying in the case of Tsarnaev and sinking into the abyss you related to.
He's a person I want to see suffer. Barbaric, yes. Do I want to see it done? a capital YES |
And sound policy should be made on the fact that it is barbaric, not the feelings of acceptability toward the barbarism. It is the same principal by which we tell people that if they know something to be wrong, feeling like doing it anyway is not justification to do it. |
Again, guilty as charged. I won't repeat my post to ocho, it says what I would to this post.
_________________
Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves. |
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ocho
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Joined: 24 May 2005
Posts: 53794
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| Posted: Tue May 19, 2015 1:16 pm Post subject: |
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| jodeke wrote: |
Guilty as charged. I agree with your definition of my becoming a Tsarnaev. I won't apologize for it. It's something I feel knowing it's against all of what I am. |
Well, at least you're honest and know it's wrong. I'd like to think on a different day your better head would prevail. |
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Omar Little
Moderator
Joined: 02 May 2005
Posts: 90306
Location: Formerly Known As 24
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| Posted: Tue May 19, 2015 1:25 pm Post subject: |
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| ringfinger wrote: | | ocho wrote: | | You can't have values that you abandon when they're inconvenient. That's what makes them values. Wanting to see him tortured is somewhat understandable. Actually going through with it makes you a torturer, plunging to the depths of the very kind of evil Tsarnaev engages in. We should rise above his kind of depravity, not sink to it. |
This is so silly. If the guy wants to torture Tsarnaev, that doesn't make him Tsarnaev incarnate. Cmon.
I guess this is the part where now we have to abolish prisons, because imprisoning people means we are holding people against their will aka kidnappers.
There's a time and a place for exceptions. You're right, you don't abandon them when they're inconvenient (although, I'd argue with your point that one cannot because I know many people who in fact, do) -- but Tsarnaev isn't an inconvenience. He's an exception. |
No, this is the part of the discussion where you either think the bolded argument is a good one, as opposed the the ridiculously, transparently illogical farce that it is, in which case you should probably beg out of the discussion due to not being able to understand it, or you know what a ridiculous argument that is, in which case, you should beg out of the discussion on the grounds of it being another example of tossing out bad devil's advocate arguments to bait a response. |
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jodeke
Retired Number
Joined: 17 Nov 2007
Posts: 67621
Location: In a world where admitting to not knowing something is considered a great way to learn.
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| Posted: Tue May 19, 2015 1:35 pm Post subject: |
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| 24 wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | | ocho wrote: | | You can't have values that you abandon when they're inconvenient. That's what makes them values. Wanting to see him tortured is somewhat understandable. Actually going through with it makes you a torturer, plunging to the depths of the very kind of evil Tsarnaev engages in. We should rise above his kind of depravity, not sink to it. |
This is so silly. If the guy wants to torture Tsarnaev, that doesn't make him Tsarnaev incarnate. Cmon.
I guess this is the part where now we have to abolish prisons, because imprisoning people means we are holding people against their will aka kidnappers.
There's a time and a place for exceptions. You're right, you don't abandon them when they're inconvenient (although, I'd argue with your point that one cannot because I know many people who in fact, do) -- but Tsarnaev isn't an inconvenience. He's an exception. |
No, this is the part of the discussion where you either think the bolded argument is a good one, as opposed the the ridiculously, transparently illogical farce that it is, in which case you should probably beg out of the discussion due to not being able to understand it, or you know what a ridiculous argument that is, in which case, you should beg out of the discussion on the grounds of it being another example of tossing out bad devil's advocate arguments to bait a response. |
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Aussiesuede
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Joined: 27 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Wed May 20, 2015 2:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Nebraska lawmakers voted to abolish the death penalty Wednesday with enough votes to override a gubernatorial veto.
Lawmakers voted 32-15 on a bill to replace the death penalty with life without parole as the state's highest penalty. Gov. Pete Ricketts (R) has vowed to veto the bill, but the legislature is expected to have enough votes to override the veto.
Stacy Anderson, executive director of Nebraskans for Alternatives to the Death Penalty, told The Huffington Post last week that a shift in numbers on the anticipated veto override vote is unlikely.
"I think the senators have made up their minds," Anderson said. "They've studied the issue and they're ready to get this bill through."
If lawmakers successfully override Ricketts' veto, Nebraska will be the first state to repeal the death penalty since Maryland eliminated the punishment in 2013. Nebraska's repeal would bring down the number of death penalty states to 31.
"Nebraska becomes the latest state to acknowledge that the death penalty is an irrevocably broken and unjust practice,” |
Nebraska to Repeal State Sponsored Death
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Wed May 20, 2015 4:54 pm Post subject: |
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| 24 wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | | ocho wrote: | | You can't have values that you abandon when they're inconvenient. That's what makes them values. Wanting to see him tortured is somewhat understandable. Actually going through with it makes you a torturer, plunging to the depths of the very kind of evil Tsarnaev engages in. We should rise above his kind of depravity, not sink to it. |
This is so silly. If the guy wants to torture Tsarnaev, that doesn't make him Tsarnaev incarnate. Cmon.
I guess this is the part where now we have to abolish prisons, because imprisoning people means we are holding people against their will aka kidnappers.
There's a time and a place for exceptions. You're right, you don't abandon them when they're inconvenient (although, I'd argue with your point that one cannot because I know many people who in fact, do) -- but Tsarnaev isn't an inconvenience. He's an exception. |
No, this is the part of the discussion where you either think the bolded argument is a good one, as opposed the the ridiculously, transparently illogical farce that it is, in which case you should probably beg out of the discussion due to not being able to understand it, or you know what a ridiculous argument that is, in which case, you should beg out of the discussion on the grounds of it being another example of tossing out bad devil's advocate arguments to bait a response. |
If someone says that wanting the death penalty for Tsaernev means you are no different than Tsaernev, then if I want someone to be held captive against their will (i.e. Prison) how am I any different than a kidnapper (i.e. False imprisonment)?
My point is that we would use the same exception logic we use to justify imprisoning a criminal as we would for the death penalty in the case of Tsaernev. Just as we accept that imprisonment is justifiable for certain crimes/situations (i.e. Assault) but not others (i.e. Speeding ticket), we would accept the death penalty for certain crimes/situations (i.e. Tsaernev) but not others (i.e. Assault) |
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Omar Little
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Location: Formerly Known As 24
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| Posted: Wed May 20, 2015 5:17 pm Post subject: |
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| ringfinger wrote: | | 24 wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | | ocho wrote: | | You can't have values that you abandon when they're inconvenient. That's what makes them values. Wanting to see him tortured is somewhat understandable. Actually going through with it makes you a torturer, plunging to the depths of the very kind of evil Tsarnaev engages in. We should rise above his kind of depravity, not sink to it. |
This is so silly. If the guy wants to torture Tsarnaev, that doesn't make him Tsarnaev incarnate. Cmon.
I guess this is the part where now we have to abolish prisons, because imprisoning people means we are holding people against their will aka kidnappers.
There's a time and a place for exceptions. You're right, you don't abandon them when they're inconvenient (although, I'd argue with your point that one cannot because I know many people who in fact, do) -- but Tsarnaev isn't an inconvenience. He's an exception. |
No, this is the part of the discussion where you either think the bolded argument is a good one, as opposed the the ridiculously, transparently illogical farce that it is, in which case you should probably beg out of the discussion due to not being able to understand it, or you know what a ridiculous argument that is, in which case, you should beg out of the discussion on the grounds of it being another example of tossing out bad devil's advocate arguments to bait a response. |
If someone says that wanting the death penalty for Tsaernev means you are no different than Tsaernev, then if I want someone to be held captive against their will (i.e. Prison) how am I any different than a kidnapper (i.e. False imprisonment)?
My point is that we would use the same exception logic we use to justify imprisoning a criminal as we would for the death penalty in the case of Tsaernev. Just as we accept that imprisonment is justifiable for certain crimes/situations (i.e. Assault) but not others (i.e. Speeding ticket), we would accept the death penalty for certain crimes/situations (i.e. Tsaernev) but not others (i.e. Assault) |
This is what I was getting at. Already you're changing the argument, which was whether or not Tsaraev should be tortured (ostensibly to death) because of the hideous thing he did. And it was offered, quite logically, that stooping to an inherently evil deed (torture) to punish someone for doing something hideous, is the same mind set that led him to do something inherently evil (bomb innocent civilians) because of anger over things he felt had been done.
Wanting to imprison a known murderer after a trial and conviction, in order to protect society from him, is in no way analogous to wanting to go kidnap someone. It is an argument specious on its very face, which is of course why you needed to change the parameters after the fact. |
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Wed May 20, 2015 6:27 pm Post subject: |
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| 24 wrote: | This is what I was getting at. Already you're changing the argument, which was whether or not Tsaraev should be tortured (ostensibly to death) because of the hideous thing he did. And it was offered, quite logically, that stooping to an inherently evil deed (torture) to punish someone for doing something hideous, is the same mind set that led him to do something inherently evil (bomb innocent civilians) because of anger over things he felt had been done.
Wanting to imprison a known murderer after a trial and conviction, in order to protect society from him, is in no way analogous to wanting to go kidnap someone. It is an argument specious on its very face, which is of course why you needed to change the parameters after the fact. |
Not changing the argument 24, just providing other examples. I don't think it is really fair, to say that someone is as evil as Tsaernev (which is what was said) even if they said we should torture him. They're really not the same thing at all.
Wanting to fine someone for a crime, whether we feel the fine is excessive or not, does not make one the same as a thief. Wanting to imprison someone for a crime, whether we feel it is excessive or not, is not the same as a kidnapper guilty of false imprisonment. Wishing for the death penalty, whether excessive or not, is not the same as a murderer. And wishing torture upon someone as evil as Tsaernev, whether we agree it is excessive or not, does not make one "as evil" as Tsaernev which is what was said. A totally unfair comparison and characterization no?
I mean, would one REALLY lose as much sleep thinking about Taernev's victims as they would Tsaernev being tortured? I think both would disturb me, but certainly one a lot more than the other because they're not the same thing.
Anyway, I get where the anger from jodeke is coming from and I think he's since retracted his point, and I'm sure we can all agree that endorsing torture to the death would be excessive but let's draw the line there instead of telling people they're as evil as Tsaernev is all I'm saying. |
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