Joined: 02 May 2005 Posts: 90306 Location: Formerly Known As 24
Posted: Tue Jul 21, 2015 11:23 am Post subject:
Randle needs that jumper to pick and pop, which also opens up the delayed roll/cut, and the swing pass for a face up attack.
Just for fun, with Randle's handling and passing skills, would be interesting to see him be the ballhandler on some unconventional pick and roll actions.
Randle needs that jumper to pick and pop, which also opens up the delayed roll/cut, and the swing pass for a face up attack.
Just for fun, with Randle's handling and passing skills, would be interesting to see him be the ballhandler on some unconventional pick and roll actions.
Seems like MadDog was already trying him in the LO role of bringing up the ball in the last SPL game
Joined: 23 Jun 2005 Posts: 8488 Location: The (real) short corner
Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 9:11 am Post subject:
The discussion regarding Russell vs Clarkson as lead guard keeps popping up, and while I do believe that they should switch off depending on who is in the position to initiate earlier, I believe that Russell will be the better choice to run the PnR so long as he has the proper spacing to do so.
I wanted to break down the following back to back identical plays run by Russell and Clarkson sequentially vs the Mavs in Summer league. High PnR defended by blitzing, with the weak side help in early position to bump the roll man.
They even make the same read, passing to the weak side wing. However, in the first play, Russell recognizes it and makes the play a second earlier, which makes all the difference. The ball is delivered to the wing right when the bumping defender is trying to make contact with the roll man, which means he has to abandon his bump and scramble back to the shooter. That forces a rotation off the corner to stop the unimpeded roll man under the basket or else the it's an easy inside pass for the dunk, and an easy swing pass nets Jabari a WIDE open corner three. Russell has a hockey assist that won't show up in the traditional box score.
On the second play, Clarkson's first instinct is to attack, but gets trapped. He makes the same pass over to Russell, but it's a bit later, and Russell's defender has time to both bump the roll man and then close out. Russell does create off the pump fake and then makes an assist again to Brown, giving Clarkson a hockey assist as well, but that's besides the point. This was much less efficient sequence from a degree of difficulty standpoint. It's not even a bad play from Clarkson, who did what he's supposed to do. But it's an example of Russell being able to create something even better.
The Lakers were dead last in hockey assists last year, as well as open shots (not to mention severely lacking in creating corner threes). A lot of this was because of the offensive scheme, but it's something that can be offset with passing ability that can catch defenses off balance. Once Russell gets through his early rookie adjustment period to the NBA, he should have the ball in his hands to make things easier for everyone.
Last edited by fiendishoc on Wed Aug 19, 2015 6:08 pm; edited 1 time in total
The discussion regarding Russell vs Clarkson as lead guard keeps popping up, and while I do believe that they should switch off depending on who is in the position to initiate earlier, I believe that Russell will be the better choice to run the PnR so long as he has the proper spacing to do so.
I wanted to break down the following back to back identical plays run by Russell and Clarkson sequentially vs the Mavs in Summer league. High PnR defended by blitzing, with the weak side help in early position to bump the roll man.
They even make the same read, passing to the weak side wing. However, in the first play, Russell recognizes it and makes the play a second earlier, which makes all the difference. The ball is delivered to the wing right when the bumping defender is trying to make contact with the roll man, which means he has to abandon his bump and scramble back to the shooter. That forces a rotation off the corner to stop the unimpeded roll man under the basket or else the it's an easy inside pass for the dunk, and an easy swing pass nets Jabari a WIDE open corner three. Russell has a hockey assist that won't show up in the traditional box score.
On the second play, Clarkson's first instinct is to attack, but gets trapped. He makes the same pass over to Russell, but it's a bit later, and Russell's defender has time to both bump the roll man and then close out. Russell does create off the pump fake and then makes an assist again to Brown, giving Clarkson a hockey assist as well, but that's besides the point. This was much less efficient sequence from a degree of difficulty standpoint. It's not even a bad play from Clarkson, who did what he's supposed to do. But it's an example of Russell being able to create something even better.
The Lakers were dead last in hockey assists last year, as well as open shots (not to mention severely lacking in creating corner threes). A lot of this was because of the offensive scheme, but it's something that can be offset with passing ability that can catch defenses off balance. Once Russell gets through his early rookie adjustment period to the NBA, he should have the ball in his hands to make things easier for everyone.
I agree with your assessment
Maybe Clarkson and Russell can learn from each other because they have the same skill set but different mentality.
Maybe Russell, Clarkson and Randle can become a version of the old Run TMC?
Hopefully Nash's session with Russell/Clarkson will be able to get Randle into the Stoudamaire role.
Joined: 15 Sep 2012 Posts: 29280 Location: La La Land
Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2015 2:30 pm Post subject:
fiendishoc wrote:
The discussion regarding Russell vs Clarkson as lead guard keeps popping up, and while I do believe that they should switch off depending on who is in the position to initiate earlier, I believe that Russell will be the better choice to run the PnR so long as he has the proper spacing to do so.
I wanted to break down the following back to back identical plays run by Russell and Clarkson sequentially vs the Mavs in Summer league. High PnR defended by blitzing, with the weak side help in early position to bump the roll man.
They even make the same read, passing to the weak side wing. However, in the first play, Russell recognizes it and makes the play a second earlier, which makes all the difference. The ball is delivered to the wing right when the bumping defender is trying to make contact with the roll man, which means he has to abandon his bump and scramble back to the shooter. That forces a rotation off the corner to stop the unimpeded roll man under the basket or else the it's an easy inside pass for the dunk, and an easy swing pass nets Jabari a WIDE open corner three. Russell has a hockey assist that won't show up in the traditional box score.
On the second play, Clarkson's first instinct is to attack, but gets trapped. He makes the same pass over to Russell, but it's a bit later, and Russell's defender has time to both bump the roll man and then close out. Russell does create off the pump fake and then makes an assist again to Brown, giving Clarkson a hockey assist as well, but that's besides the point. This was much less efficient sequence from a degree of difficulty standpoint. It's not even a bad play from Clarkson, who did what he's supposed to do. But it's an example of Russell being able to create something even better.
The Lakers were dead last in hockey assists last year, as well as open shots (not to mention severely lacking in creating corner threes). A lot of this was because of the offensive scheme, but it's something that can be offset with passing ability that can catch defenses off balance. Once Russell gets through his early rookie adjustment period to the NBA, he should have the ball in his hands to make things easier for everyone.
The links don't work anymore _________________ "Every hurt is a lesson, and every lesson makes you better”
Joined: 15 Sep 2012 Posts: 29280 Location: La La Land
Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2015 7:10 pm Post subject:
fiendishoc wrote:
^Updated with new video links, although they don't show the start of the plays
Thanks! I see what you're talking about.
You're right DLo's timing on the pass is better.
He forces one more defender to be accountable for rotating as opposed to Clarkson's pass. _________________ "Every hurt is a lesson, and every lesson makes you better”
Russell has pass first mentality. He keeps finding his teammates when having the ball with him. His height also allow him to make lay up or take shot easily over defender after cutting into the paint. He should try to develop chemistry with the teammates, especially with Randle, to be one of the best duo or trio in the league.
Clarkson, after a great rookie season, could model his game like Green of Spurs or Beal of Wizards. Run fast break, hit 3s and play defense is what he have to add to his game.
Randle has nice face to basket offensive skill. Couple with his physical tools, he could be hard to stop when playing with a good point guard like Russell.
Russell has pass first mentality. He keeps finding his teammates when having the ball with him. His height also allow him to make lay up or take shot easily over defender after cutting into the paint. He should try to develop chemistry with the teammates, especially with Randle, to be one of the best duo or trio in the league.
Clarkson, after a great rookie season, could model his game like Green of Spurs or Beal of Wizards. Run fast break, hit 3s and play defense is what he have to add to his game.
Randle has nice face to basket offensive skill. Couple with his physical tools, he could be hard to stop when playing with a good point guard like Russell.
I don't think Clarkson is a catch and shoot player, and nowhere near the shooter as Green (from 3) and Beal (in general). He's a slasher. _________________ From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals
Clarkson would model his game on Ginobili or Joe Johnson. Other than slash, his 3s and defense are much needed.
I like what the team are built: with Russell and Randle mainly carrying the offensive responsibility, the team need defensive and versatile players on 2, 3 and 5. Clarkson and Hibbert fit the needs well. Really hope the team could land like Paul George. Deng or Barnes from Warriors fits too.
Russell is Magic, Hardaway, Nash type of player. Great court version, tall, nice jumper, pass first but has nicescoring skill. He could be very special. Randle is very special too. Strong, very explosive, with nice face to basket scoring skill. With Russell, Clarkson and Randle are hard to stop on fast break.
Joined: 23 Jun 2005 Posts: 8488 Location: The (real) short corner
Posted: Sat Sep 05, 2015 6:21 pm Post subject:
drk3351 wrote:
Hey Lakers fans I analyzed the Lakers offense in summer league, thanks for watching.
Good stuff. I think you may have been a bit optimistic about the team's spacing and the read and react component, but there's some good detail in there.
One thing it showed is how we may be adding a lot more variety in Horns this year, as opposed to the one action we did over and over again last season.
Last edited by fiendishoc on Sat Sep 05, 2015 10:11 pm; edited 1 time in total
Hey Lakers fans I analyzed the Lakers offense in summer league, thanks for watching.
Good stuff. I think you may have been a bit optimistic about the team's spacing and the read and react component, but there's some good detail in there.
One thing it showed is how we may be adding a lot more variety in Horns this year, as opposed to the one action we did over and over again last season.
Thanks for the very informative breakdowns
Your examples highlights the need to have everybody on the same page to run effective any offensive sets.
The video indirectly reflects Madsen's growing pains as a head coach, teacher and incorporating strategy.
Joined: 15 Sep 2012 Posts: 29280 Location: La La Land
Posted: Sun Sep 13, 2015 7:27 am Post subject:
Didn't realize how prevalent "jungle" sets were in the NBA.
I think Scott should merge jungle into his offense. It would get Randle the ball free throw line extended with options.
_________________ "Every hurt is a lesson, and every lesson makes you better”
Joined: 23 Jun 2005 Posts: 8488 Location: The (real) short corner
Posted: Sun Sep 13, 2015 7:40 am Post subject:
kikanga wrote:
Didn't realize how prevalent "jungle" sets were in the NBA.
I think Scott should merge jungle into his offense. It would get Randle the ball free throw line extended with options.
That's almost the same as one of our most common sets last year. We called it 'Elbow' (NBA sets tend to have a lot of different names depending on the coach), and tended to run it out of the Horns formation. A lot of teams run the strong side high post split, likely influenced by Adelman's corner offense (though it was more free flowing than what we here).
It wasn't very effective for us, and we may actually be going away from it, judging from the sets in summer league. In summer league, instead of the high post player looking for the strong side cut out of Horns, they looked weak-side for the player coming off a screen.
Joined: 23 Jun 2005 Posts: 8488 Location: The (real) short corner
Posted: Mon Oct 05, 2015 8:56 am Post subject:
I'm a big a critic of the offensive system as anyone, but it wasn't the problem tonight. We missed a lot of open shots and shots at the basket with our normal lineups, and our playmaking ability might be enough to somewhat overcome the lack of creativity and ball & player movement in the sets. The lineups in the 4th were a joke, so we probably shouldn't read too much into that- I certainly don't expect to see that during the season.
What I do worry about is the porous transition defense. There were several things that we did wrong, carrying over from summer league.
Floor balance was bad- often times we had four players crashing the boards and only one back. A lot of the guys didn't start heading back until the shot was off the rim. They should be in motion as soon as the shot goes up. Also, there didn't seem to be much organization in terms of the first guy back protecting the basket and then switching to different formations as the rest of the guys get back. It was all pretty random.
And of course, tired legs were a factor with guys just losing footraces, but you don't want to build up bad habits either.
In the video that he embeds, you can see one sequence that illustrates what I was talking about with the talent overcoming the mediocre sets.
The Lakers run a meh Princeton-esque set that sort of resembles a floppy action with a big initiating rather than a guard (note that Kobe basically has to stand in place the whole possession). It takes entirely too long to set up, but Randle and Russell's playmaking abilities, they actually get a rhythm wing three out of it, albeit with the shot clock winding down.
Randle needs that jumper to pick and pop, which also opens up the delayed roll/cut, and the swing pass for a face up attack.
Just for fun, with Randle's handling and passing skills, would be interesting to see him be the ballhandler on some unconventional pick and roll actions.
He and Hibbert ran one pick n roll last night. Randle missed a small window for a throw over the top, then brought the ball back out and drove/kick to Russell for an open 3. https://vine.co/v/e216uWHzZ9Y
Joined: 23 Jun 2005 Posts: 8488 Location: The (real) short corner
Posted: Mon Oct 05, 2015 8:56 pm Post subject:
KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
24 wrote:
Randle needs that jumper to pick and pop, which also opens up the delayed roll/cut, and the swing pass for a face up attack.
Just for fun, with Randle's handling and passing skills, would be interesting to see him be the ballhandler on some unconventional pick and roll actions.
He and Hibbert ran one pick n roll last night. Randle missed a small window for a throw over the top, then brought the ball back out and drove/kick to Russell for an open 3. https://vine.co/v/e216uWHzZ9Y
Good find. Yeah, I noticed the Lakers this season borrowing several of the simpler sets that the Clippers run, which is slightly encouraging. Of course, this particular screen isn't exclusive to the Clippers, as we used to run it with Pau.
I wish they would go further with the borrowing and modernize their motion sets, like the one above.
For example, this play would be much better if:
1) Russell pushed the ball quickly up the floor and cut to the weak side in a thru action immediately after throwing it to Randle on the wing.
2) Hibbert came to the top as the trailer to receive the pass from Randle
3) Kobe uses the Clarkson screen under the basket to take the ball handler role
4) Either Russell or Clarkson fills the corner 3 area for either a direct pass or a potential swing pass.
You buy yourself ten extra seconds on the shot clock, and you get all five players involved on the play. The players are also already spotted up at the three point line rather than just on their way there.
Look how much time is left on the clock when the Clippers finish this thru action:
https://streamable.com/nghx
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