Seattle CEO who set firm's minimum wage to $70G says he has hit hard times
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2015 8:27 am    Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:
Fallout wrote:
lakerjoshua wrote:
Quote:
One big thing was he was giving people who didn't deserve that salary big raises, alienating people who did.


Who's to decide who "deserves" what? So, status equals opportunity?

This is exactly what is wrong with society today. People think they are entitled to an advantage because their parents could afford to send them to a nice school, when in all honesty, that degree is as worthless as toilet paper.

I make almost twice as much as some of my university educated colleagues, why you ask? Because I'm smarter and work harder. That degree does not entitle anyone to privilege, opportunity's or higher pay. My HS diploma has served me quite well.


You are more of the exception then the norm. How degree matters depends on the job. Do you really want someone to operate on you with a HS diploma?

Job performance should be based on merit. If soemone who went to college, have 60k in debt, work 60 hours a week and climbed the ranks to be promoted, then the stock boy ends up getting paid the same salary as you, you would be lying to say you wouldn't be pissed. Why should you put in 60 hours a week?

Also this will hurt the company in the long run. If it cost 30k to produce X widgets, now it cost 70k to produce the same amount of widgets.


Of course degree matters. To say it doesn't, is to not know the marketplace. To use himself as an example of why it doesn't matter is not a good example.

David Karp founded Tumblr and he was a high school dropout. So was Richard Branson (Virgin) and Quentin Tarantino.

Doesn't mean you'd advise dropping out of high school. Or that it is worthless as toilet paper (tho, isn't toilet paper highly useful? Haha)

He is a good example of why don't have to have a degree to be successful but what about the millions of other people? He's attributing his success to his hard work which I'm sure plays a large role but there a lot of people who work hard, without degrees, that aren't making big bucks.


I tell my students,
"Your degree is a tool in your tool box. It's an important tool, but it will not do your work for you.

Think of it like it's a hammer.

Would it be possible for a carpenter to build a table without a hammer? Sure it's possible. But it would take a lot more work than if he did have a hammer.

But if someone out there works their ass off and makes works of art without a hammer, and you come along and make so-so stuff with a hammer, don't complain that you should have gotten the job instead just because you have a hammer."
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2015 10:04 am    Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:

And good luck trying to become a doctor, lawyer, etc without a college degree. And a lot of jobs require it. But it won't guarantee you anything, and neither will hard work on its own. Every little bit helps.


Tell me about it. If you want to be a doctor, lawyer, or professor, you better be a badass compared to your peers. The job market is so tight. I don't know how it used to be but in regard to the one I'm most familiar with (professor), it's a bloodthirsty meritocracy out there. Whoever has the best research with the best credentials...wins.

And even if you're the best lecturer in the world you'll be stuck at 70K a year working as an Associate Professor until you become a star researcher.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2015 1:52 pm    Post subject:

lakerjoshua wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
jonnybravo wrote:
lakerjoshua wrote:
Quote:
One big thing was he was giving people who didn't deserve that salary big raises, alienating people who did.


Who's to decide who "deserves" what? So, status equals opportunity?

This is exactly what is wrong with society today. People think they are entitled to an advantage because their parents could afford to send them to a nice school, when in all honesty, that degree is as worthless as toilet paper.

I make almost twice as much as some of my university educated colleagues, why you ask? Because I'm smarter and work harder. That degree does not entitle anyone to privilege, opportunity's or higher pay. My HS diploma has served me quite well.


You're in sales like me LJ. Produce or don't eat. It's a whole different animal then the regular climb up the ladder.


And good luck trying to become a doctor, lawyer, etc without a college degree. And a lot of jobs require it. But it won't guarantee you anything, and neither will hard work on its own. Every little bit helps.


I never had the desire to practice law or medicine nor desired the perceived status that comes with the job. I work in Silicon Valley, one of the most competitive job markets in the country. I know plenty of executives, founders, engineers, programers, etc, who are quite successful without a degree so I may not be the "norm" but I am far from an anomaly as you suggest.

In fact, from my experience, most employers could care less about a degree and care more about practical skills. I've seen MBA's passed over for candidates with no degree who possessed the skills necessary to do the job.

So, If I'm paid for being the best at what I do, and the janitor is the best at what he does, why should I care if he makes the same as me?


What does your desire for anything in particular have relevance here? You said college degrees are as worthless as toilet paper. One cannot apply for law or med school and submit toilet paper in lieu of a college degree. So how can they be worthless?

Did you mean worthless in your isolated, specific, situation but not necessarily in any other? If so, then ok.

I'm not sure what the definition of "best" at any particular field is, but regardless of whether you're the best or not, would you care if you found out you were the lowest paid person in America?
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2015 6:33 pm    Post subject:

Don Draper wrote:
ringfinger wrote:

And good luck trying to become a doctor, lawyer, etc without a college degree. And a lot of jobs require it. But it won't guarantee you anything, and neither will hard work on its own. Every little bit helps.


Tell me about it. If you want to be a doctor, lawyer, or professor, you better be a badass compared to your peers. The job market is so tight. I don't know how it used to be but in regard to the one I'm most familiar with (professor), it's a bloodthirsty meritocracy out there. Whoever has the best research with the best credentials...wins.

And even if you're the best lecturer in the world you'll be stuck at 70K a year working as an Associate Professor until you become a star researcher.

We have a shortage of doctors and it's only getting worse. If a doctor wants to practive primary care they can open up tonight and have a full clientele by the end of the week. You're correct about lawyers and professors - and part of the reason we have too few doctors is too many capable people trying to be lawyers and professors.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2015 6:35 pm    Post subject: Re: Seattle CEO who set firm's minimum wage to $70G says he has hit hard times

USCandLakers wrote:
Fallout wrote:
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/08/01/seattle-ceo-who-set-firm-minimum-wage-to-70g-rents-house-to-make-ends-meet/?intcmp=hpbt4

Its an interesting read. He meant well, but now it could doom his company. One big thing was he was giving people who didn't deserve that salary big raises, alienating people who did. A guy with a Masters degree and a big school debt will feel pissed getting paid same as a Janitor without a HS diploma.


That person should not care what the janitor is making. It's not anyone's business what other people are making.

By the same token,, it's none of your business what two strangers value in an employer.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2015 7:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Seattle CEO who set firm's minimum wage to $70G says he has hit hard times

USCandLakers wrote:
Fallout wrote:
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/08/01/seattle-ceo-who-set-firm-minimum-wage-to-70g-rents-house-to-make-ends-meet/?intcmp=hpbt4

Its an interesting read. He meant well, but now it could doom his company. One big thing was he was giving people who didn't deserve that salary big raises, alienating people who did. A guy with a Masters degree and a big school debt will feel pissed getting paid same as a Janitor without a HS diploma.


That person should not care what the janitor is making. It's not anyone's business what other people are making.

So you're going to quit your job because someone lower than you is making the same or near the same? Even if what you're making is fair? That makes no sense.


You want salary comparison. If someone that is equal in your position but making twice as much don't tell me you don't care.

In that finance manager's situation, she went to school, worked long hours, sacrifice her family time and the stock boy is going to make as much as she does. She felt devalued. Its no longer merit based on performance.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2015 9:47 pm    Post subject: Re: Seattle CEO who set firm's minimum wage to $70G says he has hit hard times

Fallout wrote:
USCandLakers wrote:
Fallout wrote:
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/08/01/seattle-ceo-who-set-firm-minimum-wage-to-70g-rents-house-to-make-ends-meet/?intcmp=hpbt4

Its an interesting read. He meant well, but now it could doom his company. One big thing was he was giving people who didn't deserve that salary big raises, alienating people who did. A guy with a Masters degree and a big school debt will feel pissed getting paid same as a Janitor without a HS diploma.


That person should not care what the janitor is making. It's not anyone's business what other people are making.

So you're going to quit your job because someone lower than you is making the same or near the same? Even if what you're making is fair? That makes no sense.


You want salary comparison. If someone that is equal in your position but making twice as much don't tell me you don't care.

In that finance manager's situation, she went to school, worked long hours, sacrifice her family time and the stock boy is going to make as much as she does. She felt devalued. Its no longer merit based on performance.


So what she felt devalued. thats josh's point.

first off, we dont even know if this person was good at their job. 2ndly, like josh said, who cares what the other guy makes.

Especially if you already make a decent to good living wage.

See it would be one thing if this person that quit made a low wage. then she sees some clown off the street come in making a bunch of money. But if you're already financially comfortable and they decide to pay someone else thats spanking new the same wage. WHO CARES.

Stop worrying about another man's pocket and worry about yours and your life.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2015 10:15 pm    Post subject:

Socialism never in the history of the world has ever worked.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2015 5:35 am    Post subject: Re: Seattle CEO who set firm's minimum wage to $70G says he has hit hard times

hoopla wrote:
Fallout wrote:
USCandLakers wrote:
Fallout wrote:
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/08/01/seattle-ceo-who-set-firm-minimum-wage-to-70g-rents-house-to-make-ends-meet/?intcmp=hpbt4

Its an interesting read. He meant well, but now it could doom his company. One big thing was he was giving people who didn't deserve that salary big raises, alienating people who did. A guy with a Masters degree and a big school debt will feel pissed getting paid same as a Janitor without a HS diploma.


That person should not care what the janitor is making. It's not anyone's business what other people are making.

So you're going to quit your job because someone lower than you is making the same or near the same? Even if what you're making is fair? That makes no sense.


You want salary comparison. If someone that is equal in your position but making twice as much don't tell me you don't care.

In that finance manager's situation, she went to school, worked long hours, sacrifice her family time and the stock boy is going to make as much as she does. She felt devalued. Its no longer merit based on performance.


So what she felt devalued. thats josh's point.

first off, we dont even know if this person was good at their job. 2ndly, like josh said, who cares what the other guy makes.

Especially if you already make a decent to good living wage.

See it would be one thing if this person that quit made a low wage. then she sees some clown off the street come in making a bunch of money. But if you're already financially comfortable and they decide to pay someone else thats spanking new the same wage. WHO CARES.

Stop worrying about another man's pocket and worry about yours and your life.


It depends what type of person you are. Some don't care. If I bust my balls to get where I am at and the stock boy suddenly makes as much as I do, I certainly won't be happy.

But I applaud what the owner is trying to do, sacrificing his own money to help others.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2015 6:59 am    Post subject: Re: Seattle CEO who set firm's minimum wage to $70G says he has hit hard times

hoopla wrote:
Fallout wrote:
USCandLakers wrote:
Fallout wrote:
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/08/01/seattle-ceo-who-set-firm-minimum-wage-to-70g-rents-house-to-make-ends-meet/?intcmp=hpbt4

Its an interesting read. He meant well, but now it could doom his company. One big thing was he was giving people who didn't deserve that salary big raises, alienating people who did. A guy with a Masters degree and a big school debt will feel pissed getting paid same as a Janitor without a HS diploma.


That person should not care what the janitor is making. It's not anyone's business what other people are making.

So you're going to quit your job because someone lower than you is making the same or near the same? Even if what you're making is fair? That makes no sense.


You want salary comparison. If someone that is equal in your position but making twice as much don't tell me you don't care.

In that finance manager's situation, she went to school, worked long hours, sacrifice her family time and the stock boy is going to make as much as she does. She felt devalued. Its no longer merit based on performance.


So what she felt devalued. thats josh's point.

first off, we dont even know if this person was good at their job. 2ndly, like josh said, who cares what the other guy makes.

Especially if you already make a decent to good living wage.

See it would be one thing if this person that quit made a low wage. then she sees some clown off the street come in making a bunch of money. But if you're already financially comfortable and they decide to pay someone else thats spanking new the same wage. WHO CARES.

Stop worrying about another man's pocket and worry about yours and your life.


So you don't support equal compensation for men and women because women should just worry about their own pocket?
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2015 7:14 am    Post subject: Re: Seattle CEO who set firm's minimum wage to $70G says he has hit hard times

Fallout wrote:
hoopla wrote:
Fallout wrote:
USCandLakers wrote:
Fallout wrote:
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/08/01/seattle-ceo-who-set-firm-minimum-wage-to-70g-rents-house-to-make-ends-meet/?intcmp=hpbt4

Its an interesting read. He meant well, but now it could doom his company. One big thing was he was giving people who didn't deserve that salary big raises, alienating people who did. A guy with a Masters degree and a big school debt will feel pissed getting paid same as a Janitor without a HS diploma.


That person should not care what the janitor is making. It's not anyone's business what other people are making.

So you're going to quit your job because someone lower than you is making the same or near the same? Even if what you're making is fair? That makes no sense.


You want salary comparison. If someone that is equal in your position but making twice as much don't tell me you don't care.

In that finance manager's situation, she went to school, worked long hours, sacrifice her family time and the stock boy is going to make as much as she does. She felt devalued. Its no longer merit based on performance.


So what she felt devalued. thats josh's point.

first off, we dont even know if this person was good at their job. 2ndly, like josh said, who cares what the other guy makes.

Especially if you already make a decent to good living wage.

See it would be one thing if this person that quit made a low wage. then she sees some clown off the street come in making a bunch of money. But if you're already financially comfortable and they decide to pay someone else thats spanking new the same wage. WHO CARES.

Stop worrying about another man's pocket and worry about yours and your life.


It depends what type of person you are. Some don't care. If I bust my balls to get where I am at and the stock boy suddenly makes as much as I do, I certainly won't be happy.

But I applaud what the owner is trying to do, sacrificing his own money to help others.


I would really like to know, psychologically speaking, what would drive one to care about such a thing. So essentially, you busted your balls not to make a certain wage, but busted your balls to make more than another person. That fascinates me. When a million dollars no longer is a million dollars - not inflation...but when the janitor has a million too! I mean, housing prices are the same, food's the same, car prices are still the same - the only thing that has changed is now someone else is making the same as you. And now you're angry. That is so fascinating. I'm not being sarcastic, this is fascinating. It's making me want to take up psychology just to understand.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2015 7:55 am    Post subject: Re: Seattle CEO who set firm's minimum wage to $70G says he has hit hard times

ringfinger wrote:
hoopla wrote:
Fallout wrote:
USCandLakers wrote:
Fallout wrote:
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/08/01/seattle-ceo-who-set-firm-minimum-wage-to-70g-rents-house-to-make-ends-meet/?intcmp=hpbt4

Its an interesting read. He meant well, but now it could doom his company. One big thing was he was giving people who didn't deserve that salary big raises, alienating people who did. A guy with a Masters degree and a big school debt will feel pissed getting paid same as a Janitor without a HS diploma.


That person should not care what the janitor is making. It's not anyone's business what other people are making.

So you're going to quit your job because someone lower than you is making the same or near the same? Even if what you're making is fair? That makes no sense.


You want salary comparison. If someone that is equal in your position but making twice as much don't tell me you don't care.

In that finance manager's situation, she went to school, worked long hours, sacrifice her family time and the stock boy is going to make as much as she does. She felt devalued. Its no longer merit based on performance.


So what she felt devalued. thats josh's point.

first off, we dont even know if this person was good at their job. 2ndly, like josh said, who cares what the other guy makes.

Especially if you already make a decent to good living wage.

See it would be one thing if this person that quit made a low wage. then she sees some clown off the street come in making a bunch of money. But if you're already financially comfortable and they decide to pay someone else thats spanking new the same wage. WHO CARES.

Stop worrying about another man's pocket and worry about yours and your life.


So you don't support equal compensation for men and women because women should just worry about their own pocket?


Comments like this are why people ignore you RF. You seem more intelligent than someone who would distort context and ask rhetorical off topic sarcastic questions.

"you seem" being the key term.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2015 8:32 am    Post subject:

So imagine that the Seattle Supersonics (now called the Oklahoma City Thunder) had a similar approach. Instead of offering Durrant ~$22M (or whatever the actual max will be) and Westbrook ~$18M next season, and paying everyone else according to value, they establish a $5M minimum salary for everyone. Either their salary would be ~$120M (with all the taxes on top) or they can't pay Durrant, Westbrook, et al, their market value.

(Typo: 5K changed to 5M)
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2015 9:10 am    Post subject:

ribeye wrote:
So imagine that the Seattle Supersonics (now called the Oklahoma City Thunder) had a similar approach. Instead of offering Durrant ~$22M (or whatever the actual max will be) and Westbrook ~$18M next season, and paying everyone else according to value, they establish a $5K minimum salary for everyone. Either their salary would be ~$120M (with all the taxes on top) or they can't pay Durrant, Westbrook, et al, their market value.


I'm not understanding your scenario. Could you clarify it?
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2015 11:40 am    Post subject: Re: Seattle CEO who set firm's minimum wage to $70G says he has hit hard times

lakerjoshua wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
hoopla wrote:
Fallout wrote:
USCandLakers wrote:
Fallout wrote:
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/08/01/seattle-ceo-who-set-firm-minimum-wage-to-70g-rents-house-to-make-ends-meet/?intcmp=hpbt4

Its an interesting read. He meant well, but now it could doom his company. One big thing was he was giving people who didn't deserve that salary big raises, alienating people who did. A guy with a Masters degree and a big school debt will feel pissed getting paid same as a Janitor without a HS diploma.


That person should not care what the janitor is making. It's not anyone's business what other people are making.

So you're going to quit your job because someone lower than you is making the same or near the same? Even if what you're making is fair? That makes no sense.


You want salary comparison. If someone that is equal in your position but making twice as much don't tell me you don't care.

In that finance manager's situation, she went to school, worked long hours, sacrifice her family time and the stock boy is going to make as much as she does. She felt devalued. Its no longer merit based on performance.


So what she felt devalued. thats josh's point.

first off, we dont even know if this person was good at their job. 2ndly, like josh said, who cares what the other guy makes.

Especially if you already make a decent to good living wage.

See it would be one thing if this person that quit made a low wage. then she sees some clown off the street come in making a bunch of money. But if you're already financially comfortable and they decide to pay someone else thats spanking new the same wage. WHO CARES.

Stop worrying about another man's pocket and worry about yours and your life.


So you don't support equal compensation for men and women because women should just worry about their own pocket?


Comments like this are why people ignore you RF. You seem more intelligent than someone who would distort context and ask rhetorical off topic sarcastic questions.

"you seem" being the key term.


And conveniently, no answer to the question.

If a woman is unfairly paid relative to her male peers, and she finds out, would you tell her to mind her own pocket because why should she care what makes?

That's what you said. I'm just asking you if you considered other angles like this or not.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2015 11:51 am    Post subject: Re: Seattle CEO who set firm's minimum wage to $70G says he has hit hard times

USCandLakers wrote:
Fallout wrote:
hoopla wrote:
Fallout wrote:
USCandLakers wrote:
Fallout wrote:
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/08/01/seattle-ceo-who-set-firm-minimum-wage-to-70g-rents-house-to-make-ends-meet/?intcmp=hpbt4

Its an interesting read. He meant well, but now it could doom his company. One big thing was he was giving people who didn't deserve that salary big raises, alienating people who did. A guy with a Masters degree and a big school debt will feel pissed getting paid same as a Janitor without a HS diploma.


That person should not care what the janitor is making. It's not anyone's business what other people are making.

So you're going to quit your job because someone lower than you is making the same or near the same? Even if what you're making is fair? That makes no sense.


You want salary comparison. If someone that is equal in your position but making twice as much don't tell me you don't care.

In that finance manager's situation, she went to school, worked long hours, sacrifice her family time and the stock boy is going to make as much as she does. She felt devalued. Its no longer merit based on performance.


So what she felt devalued. thats josh's point.

first off, we dont even know if this person was good at their job. 2ndly, like josh said, who cares what the other guy makes.

Especially if you already make a decent to good living wage.

See it would be one thing if this person that quit made a low wage. then she sees some clown off the street come in making a bunch of money. But if you're already financially comfortable and they decide to pay someone else thats spanking new the same wage. WHO CARES.

Stop worrying about another man's pocket and worry about yours and your life.


It depends what type of person you are. Some don't care. If I bust my balls to get where I am at and the stock boy suddenly makes as much as I do, I certainly won't be happy.

But I applaud what the owner is trying to do, sacrificing his own money to help others.


I would really like to know, psychologically speaking, what would drive one to care about such a thing. So essentially, you busted your balls not to make a certain wage, but busted your balls to make more than another person. That fascinates me. When a million dollars no longer is a million dollars - not inflation...but when the janitor has a million too! I mean, housing prices are the same, food's the same, car prices are still the same - the only thing that has changed is now someone else is making the same as you. And now you're angry. That is so fascinating. I'm not being sarcastic, this is fascinating. It's making me want to take up psychology just to understand.


You shouldn't need to take psychology to understand but if it helps, do it.

People have fundamentally wanted to be treated fairly since the beginning of mankind. And you can only determine fairness relative to others. This isn't anything new.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2015 12:38 pm    Post subject: Re: Seattle CEO who set firm's minimum wage to $70G says he has hit hard times

ringfinger wrote:
USCandLakers wrote:
Fallout wrote:
hoopla wrote:
Fallout wrote:
USCandLakers wrote:
Fallout wrote:
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/08/01/seattle-ceo-who-set-firm-minimum-wage-to-70g-rents-house-to-make-ends-meet/?intcmp=hpbt4

Its an interesting read. He meant well, but now it could doom his company. One big thing was he was giving people who didn't deserve that salary big raises, alienating people who did. A guy with a Masters degree and a big school debt will feel pissed getting paid same as a Janitor without a HS diploma.


That person should not care what the janitor is making. It's not anyone's business what other people are making.

So you're going to quit your job because someone lower than you is making the same or near the same? Even if what you're making is fair? That makes no sense.


You want salary comparison. If someone that is equal in your position but making twice as much don't tell me you don't care.

In that finance manager's situation, she went to school, worked long hours, sacrifice her family time and the stock boy is going to make as much as she does. She felt devalued. Its no longer merit based on performance.


So what she felt devalued. thats josh's point.

first off, we dont even know if this person was good at their job. 2ndly, like josh said, who cares what the other guy makes.

Especially if you already make a decent to good living wage.

See it would be one thing if this person that quit made a low wage. then she sees some clown off the street come in making a bunch of money. But if you're already financially comfortable and they decide to pay someone else thats spanking new the same wage. WHO CARES.

Stop worrying about another man's pocket and worry about yours and your life.


It depends what type of person you are. Some don't care. If I bust my balls to get where I am at and the stock boy suddenly makes as much as I do, I certainly won't be happy.

But I applaud what the owner is trying to do, sacrificing his own money to help others.


I would really like to know, psychologically speaking, what would drive one to care about such a thing. So essentially, you busted your balls not to make a certain wage, but busted your balls to make more than another person. That fascinates me. When a million dollars no longer is a million dollars - not inflation...but when the janitor has a million too! I mean, housing prices are the same, food's the same, car prices are still the same - the only thing that has changed is now someone else is making the same as you. And now you're angry. That is so fascinating. I'm not being sarcastic, this is fascinating. It's making me want to take up psychology just to understand.


You shouldn't need to take psychology to understand but if it helps, do it.

People have fundamentally wanted to be treated fairly since the beginning of mankind. And you can only determine fairness relative to others. This isn't anything new.


Say you leave the company and get a job somewhere else. You'd be making the same money but the "janitors" below you would be making their expected salary. Fairness restored. Now you're happy even though you're making the exact same figure....That doesn't add up. It just doesn't. And it comes off as sort of...cruel. That's why I'm fascinated to the point where I want to take up psychology just to understand. I usually don't come across people in life that I don't understand on some level. But this...this doesn't register. It's new to me.

Fairness? Huh? The salary you're making is industry standard. You go elsewhere you are given the same figure. What you're making is fair. You expected to make that salary. You've live comfortably for years with that salary. Someone below you is given the same pay and now what you're making isn't fair? How childish is that? Mommy! Tommy is younger than me he shouldn't be given 10 dollars too!

Huh. *pinches chin*

Maybe I do understand this kind of thinking. I've seen it before. In children.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2015 12:49 pm    Post subject: Re: Seattle CEO who set firm's minimum wage to $70G says he has hit hard times

USCandLakers wrote:
Fallout wrote:
hoopla wrote:
Fallout wrote:
USCandLakers wrote:
Fallout wrote:
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/08/01/seattle-ceo-who-set-firm-minimum-wage-to-70g-rents-house-to-make-ends-meet/?intcmp=hpbt4

Its an interesting read. He meant well, but now it could doom his company. One big thing was he was giving people who didn't deserve that salary big raises, alienating people who did. A guy with a Masters degree and a big school debt will feel pissed getting paid same as a Janitor without a HS diploma.


That person should not care what the janitor is making. It's not anyone's business what other people are making.

So you're going to quit your job because someone lower than you is making the same or near the same? Even if what you're making is fair? That makes no sense.


You want salary comparison. If someone that is equal in your position but making twice as much don't tell me you don't care.

In that finance manager's situation, she went to school, worked long hours, sacrifice her family time and the stock boy is going to make as much as she does. She felt devalued. Its no longer merit based on performance.


So what she felt devalued. thats josh's point.

first off, we dont even know if this person was good at their job. 2ndly, like josh said, who cares what the other guy makes.

Especially if you already make a decent to good living wage.

See it would be one thing if this person that quit made a low wage. then she sees some clown off the street come in making a bunch of money. But if you're already financially comfortable and they decide to pay someone else thats spanking new the same wage. WHO CARES.

Stop worrying about another man's pocket and worry about yours and your life.


It depends what type of person you are. Some don't care. If I bust my balls to get where I am at and the stock boy suddenly makes as much as I do, I certainly won't be happy.

But I applaud what the owner is trying to do, sacrificing his own money to help others.


I would really like to know, psychologically speaking, what would drive one to care about such a thing. So essentially, you busted your balls not to make a certain wage, but busted your balls to make more than another person. That fascinates me. When a million dollars no longer is a million dollars - not inflation...but when the janitor has a million too! I mean, housing prices are the same, food's the same, car prices are still the same - the only thing that has changed is now someone else is making the same as you. And now you're angry. That is so fascinating. I'm not being sarcastic, this is fascinating. It's making me want to take up psychology just to understand.


You are missing the point. Its about how you view your value and your competitiveness.

Lets use this scenario. You graduated from college with 60k in debt. You work 60k hours a week. You work your way to become Senior widget maker. You finally make 70K.

A Junior widget maker straight out of HS comes in making 25K a year. He works 35 hours a week. He produces less than half your work, so the salary is appropriate.

Now both of you make 70K a year. He puts in less hours, produces less amount in the same job, making same as you.

Pschologically speaking if it doesn't bother you, I would be fascinated too.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2015 12:55 pm    Post subject: Re: Seattle CEO who set firm's minimum wage to $70G says he has hit hard times

Fallout wrote:
hoopla wrote:
Fallout wrote:
USCandLakers wrote:
Fallout wrote:
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/08/01/seattle-ceo-who-set-firm-minimum-wage-to-70g-rents-house-to-make-ends-meet/?intcmp=hpbt4

Its an interesting read. He meant well, but now it could doom his company. One big thing was he was giving people who didn't deserve that salary big raises, alienating people who did. A guy with a Masters degree and a big school debt will feel pissed getting paid same as a Janitor without a HS diploma.


That person should not care what the janitor is making. It's not anyone's business what other people are making.

So you're going to quit your job because someone lower than you is making the same or near the same? Even if what you're making is fair? That makes no sense.


You want salary comparison. If someone that is equal in your position but making twice as much don't tell me you don't care.

In that finance manager's situation, she went to school, worked long hours, sacrifice her family time and the stock boy is going to make as much as she does. She felt devalued. Its no longer merit based on performance.


So what she felt devalued. thats josh's point.

first off, we dont even know if this person was good at their job. 2ndly, like josh said, who cares what the other guy makes.

Especially if you already make a decent to good living wage.

See it would be one thing if this person that quit made a low wage. then she sees some clown off the street come in making a bunch of money. But if you're already financially comfortable and they decide to pay someone else thats spanking new the same wage. WHO CARES.

Stop worrying about another man's pocket and worry about yours and your life.


It depends what type of person you are. Some don't care. If I bust my balls to get where I am at and the stock boy suddenly makes as much as I do, I certainly won't be happy.

But I applaud what the owner is trying to do, sacrificing his own money to help others.


Does that just apply to others at your individual company, or on the working landscape as a whole? If you've a college education, are you comfortable that the uneducated guy who picks up your trash every week makes double your salary?
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2015 1:44 pm    Post subject: Re: Seattle CEO who set firm's minimum wage to $70G says he has hit hard times

Aussiesuede wrote:
Fallout wrote:
hoopla wrote:
Fallout wrote:
USCandLakers wrote:
Fallout wrote:
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/08/01/seattle-ceo-who-set-firm-minimum-wage-to-70g-rents-house-to-make-ends-meet/?intcmp=hpbt4

Its an interesting read. He meant well, but now it could doom his company. One big thing was he was giving people who didn't deserve that salary big raises, alienating people who did. A guy with a Masters degree and a big school debt will feel pissed getting paid same as a Janitor without a HS diploma.


That person should not care what the janitor is making. It's not anyone's business what other people are making.

So you're going to quit your job because someone lower than you is making the same or near the same? Even if what you're making is fair? That makes no sense.


You want salary comparison. If someone that is equal in your position but making twice as much don't tell me you don't care.

In that finance manager's situation, she went to school, worked long hours, sacrifice her family time and the stock boy is going to make as much as she does. She felt devalued. Its no longer merit based on performance.


So what she felt devalued. thats josh's point.

first off, we dont even know if this person was good at their job. 2ndly, like josh said, who cares what the other guy makes.

Especially if you already make a decent to good living wage.

See it would be one thing if this person that quit made a low wage. then she sees some clown off the street come in making a bunch of money. But if you're already financially comfortable and they decide to pay someone else thats spanking new the same wage. WHO CARES.

Stop worrying about another man's pocket and worry about yours and your life.


It depends what type of person you are. Some don't care. If I bust my balls to get where I am at and the stock boy suddenly makes as much as I do, I certainly won't be happy.

But I applaud what the owner is trying to do, sacrificing his own money to help others.


Does that just apply to others at your individual company, or on the working landscape as a whole? If you've a college education, are you comfortable that the uneducated guy who picks up your trash every week makes double your salary?


A couple things about this statement.

1) To get here you have to make the assumption the trash collector is uneducated and "stuck" being a trash collector rather than choosing the occupation. This also lends itself to assuming uneducated= unskilled.

2) Using the trash collector as a great analog. Being that the job is also deemed "undesirable" one would expect it would come with a much higher rate of compensation, no? And if that compensation was such, (see point 1) you cannot make the assumption that the trash collector is either unskilled or was forced into the occupation due to lack of said education. Rather he is a trash collector because it pays well and he is able to make a decent living.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2015 2:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Seattle CEO who set firm's minimum wage to $70G says he has hit hard times

lakerjoshua wrote:


A couple things about this statement.

1) To get here you have to make the assumption the trash collector is uneducated and "stuck" being a trash collector rather than choosing the occupation. This also lends itself to assuming uneducated= unskilled.


Uneducated and unskilled are two ENTIRELY different equations. Most professions require skills that are earned more on the job than inside a classroom. Garbage collection jobs SELDOM carry an educational requirement. But they do carry a requirement to fulfill a minimum skillset as required by the work to be done. Many people will lack the physical acumen necessary to accomplish the task at hand. Most trash collectors are indeed uneducated (beyond high school), and presumably most choose the profession because it is much more lucrative than other professions which don't require educational accreditation. In other words, they smartly survey the landscape of jobs available to them and then choose one that's significantly more lucrative than the remainder - maximizing the skillset they bring to the table. My pesonal opinion is that these folks are smarter than those who do NOT maximise their individual skillsets and accept lower paying positions simply because they deem them to be "more glamorous" than a garbage collector.


lakerjoshua wrote:
2) Using the trash collector as a great analog. Being that the job is also deemed "undesirable" one would expect it would come with a much higher rate of compensation, no? And if that compensation was such, (see point 1) you cannot make the assumption that the trash collector is either unskilled or was forced into the occupation due to lack of said education. Rather he is a trash collector because it pays well and he is able to make a decent living.


See above. Being uneducated does NOT equate to being unskilled. I know a host of shipyard workers who all earn in excess of $100k / year. The overwhelming majority are NOT educated, but are VERY HIGHLY skilled. There are guys at the yard who dropped out of high school, spent time in prison, and are earning more than your average engineer. Most trash collectors only earn in the $50k range. There are only a few municipalities where they earn in excess of 6 figures.

But the primary point still is: Does it matter that they are earning more than someone who took the time to educate themselves? Are those who educated themselves getting their nose bent out of shape about the fact that these garbage collectors are earning more? And if not, then why is it such a big deal to them what an administative clerk at their particular firm is earning. It's not like that clerks minimum earning potential is capping their earning potential. At the firm in question, those with greater earning potential have not lost their greater earning potential because the lower rung employees have had their salaries raised. They still have the opportunity to earn more than them in the future. Why get their nose so bent out of shape because those they see as "lower" than them will be temporarily earning a salary that's near theirs? The 26 year old woman in question was just offered a raise from $60K to $70k. By all accounts, this company has always rewarded their best performers (with 7 employees earning in excess of $100K) Every indicator is that her salary would rise at well. But in the short term, she could not handle having those ""lower" than her making near what she was making.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2015 2:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Seattle CEO who set firm's minimum wage to $70G says he has hit hard times

USCandLakers wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
USCandLakers wrote:
Fallout wrote:
hoopla wrote:
Fallout wrote:
USCandLakers wrote:
Fallout wrote:
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/08/01/seattle-ceo-who-set-firm-minimum-wage-to-70g-rents-house-to-make-ends-meet/?intcmp=hpbt4

Its an interesting read. He meant well, but now it could doom his company. One big thing was he was giving people who didn't deserve that salary big raises, alienating people who did. A guy with a Masters degree and a big school debt will feel pissed getting paid same as a Janitor without a HS diploma.


That person should not care what the janitor is making. It's not anyone's business what other people are making.

So you're going to quit your job because someone lower than you is making the same or near the same? Even if what you're making is fair? That makes no sense.


You want salary comparison. If someone that is equal in your position but making twice as much don't tell me you don't care.

In that finance manager's situation, she went to school, worked long hours, sacrifice her family time and the stock boy is going to make as much as she does. She felt devalued. Its no longer merit based on performance.


So what she felt devalued. thats josh's point.

first off, we dont even know if this person was good at their job. 2ndly, like josh said, who cares what the other guy makes.

Especially if you already make a decent to good living wage.

See it would be one thing if this person that quit made a low wage. then she sees some clown off the street come in making a bunch of money. But if you're already financially comfortable and they decide to pay someone else thats spanking new the same wage. WHO CARES.

Stop worrying about another man's pocket and worry about yours and your life.


It depends what type of person you are. Some don't care. If I bust my balls to get where I am at and the stock boy suddenly makes as much as I do, I certainly won't be happy.

But I applaud what the owner is trying to do, sacrificing his own money to help others.


I would really like to know, psychologically speaking, what would drive one to care about such a thing. So essentially, you busted your balls not to make a certain wage, but busted your balls to make more than another person. That fascinates me. When a million dollars no longer is a million dollars - not inflation...but when the janitor has a million too! I mean, housing prices are the same, food's the same, car prices are still the same - the only thing that has changed is now someone else is making the same as you. And now you're angry. That is so fascinating. I'm not being sarcastic, this is fascinating. It's making me want to take up psychology just to understand.


You shouldn't need to take psychology to understand but if it helps, do it.

People have fundamentally wanted to be treated fairly since the beginning of mankind. And you can only determine fairness relative to others. This isn't anything new.


Say you leave the company and get a job somewhere else. You'd be making the same money but the "janitors" below you would be making their expected salary. Fairness restored. Now you're happy even though you're making the exact same figure....That doesn't add up. It just doesn't. And it comes off as sort of...cruel. That's why I'm fascinated to the point where I want to take up psychology just to understand. I usually don't come across people in life that I don't understand on some level. But this...this doesn't register. It's new to me.

Fairness? Huh? The salary you're making is industry standard. You go elsewhere you are given the same figure. What you're making is fair. You expected to make that salary. You've live comfortably for years with that salary. Someone below you is given the same pay and now what you're making isn't fair? How childish is that? Mommy! Tommy is younger than me he shouldn't be given 10 dollars too!

Huh. *pinches chin*

Maybe I do understand this kind of thinking. I've seen it before. In children.


I'm not sure why it doesn't register for you, man. Like I said, if taking a psychology class helps, I'd recommend it.

I think part of the problem is that you're conflating the frustration people have when a lower level employees makes as much money as them, as someone being concerned with another's pay.

That isn't the case at all. And if that is what you thought was happening, then you misunderstood the situation.

No one cares what Tommy makes.

But people care, what a position that requires no formal education or special skill, pays relative to a position that requires formal education, certified training, and demonstrated advanced skill.

The latter should pay more. Doesn't matter what they're paying Tommy.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2015 2:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Seattle CEO who set firm's minimum wage to $70G says he has hit hard times

ringfinger wrote:

But people care, what a position that requires no formal education or special skill, pays relative to a position that requires formal education, certified training, and demonstrated advanced skill.

The latter should pay more. Doesn't matter what they're paying Tommy.


So let's be clear. You are of the mind that a Garbage collector Earning $110k, and a Shipyard Pipefitter Earning $120k should not be earning those amounts if an educated engineer is only earning $80k?
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2015 6:44 pm    Post subject: Re: Seattle CEO who set firm's minimum wage to $70G says he has hit hard times

Aussiesuede wrote:
ringfinger wrote:

But people care, what a position that requires no formal education or special skill, pays relative to a position that requires formal education, certified training, and demonstrated advanced skill.

The latter should pay more. Doesn't matter what they're paying Tommy.


So let's be clear. You are of the mind that a Garbage collector Earning $110k, and a Shipyard Pipefitter Earning $120k should not be earning those amounts if an educated engineer is only earning $80k?


I think that question has some variables. For instance, are we talking about the worst educated engineer in the world with no experience versus the most experienced and best garbage collector?

But in general terms, I'd say the engineer should make more but ultimatel, it should come down to a supply/demand equation. And with the barrier to entry for a garbage man being lower, I'd say the engineer will likely command a higher salary.

Ultimately, we're talking about whether it is appropriate to be concerned with what others in your organization are making relative to oneself and whether you're a woman concerned with making less than a man, or a man being concerned with making less or comparable to someone who is inferiorally skilled/experienced/tasked/sought, I don't see where the problem is.

I once had someone brought in to my work to report to me, who was more experienced and been with the company longer and he made just a little less than me. I brought it up to HR and my manager and they adjusted my salary accordingly. What's inappropritate about any of that?
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 3:37 pm    Post subject:

Latest Progress Update:



Quote:
The 20 percent raises Price implemented in 2012 were supposed to be a one-time deal. Then something strange happened: Profits rose just as much as the previous year, fueled by a surprising productivity jump—of 30 to 40 percent. He figured it was a fluke, but he piled on 20 percent raises again the following year. Again, profits rose by a like amount. Baffled, he did the same in 2014 and profits continued to rise, though not quite as much as before, because Gravity had to do more hiring.

By any measure, Gravity was doing relatively well. Revenue hit $150 million in 2014 and was growing 15 percent per year on $7 billion in customer transactions. Profits hit $2.2 million—actually a so-so 1.46 percent net margin, below the industry average. About 40 percent of the profits went to Dan and Lucas as dividends (Dan put his in an emergency savings account for the company). The rest went back into the business. "We had a great culture and hundreds of people were applying for positions, so we could have gotten away with underpaying for a while longer," he says.

The plan will eventually double the salaries of 30 workers and give raises to 40 more making less than $70,000. Phased in over three years, this will cost $1.8 million. The minimum jumped to $50,000 immediately and will climb by $10,000 in each of the next two years; those who earn $50,000 to $70,000 will get $5,000 raises. Price has vowed not to raise prices, lay off staff, or cut executive pay. More than half the cost will be offset by Price's pay cut. Unless revenue grows, the rest will be covered by that $2.2 million profit, leaving little margin for error.

Is there a magic number that keeps workers focused while still generating a profit? Price calculated a figure but never imagined the publicity he's gotten would boost new customer inquiries from 30 per month to 2,000 within two weeks. Customer acquisition costs are typically high, so in that sense, the strategy has paid off. And in this business, customer retention is key. Gravity's 91 percent retention rate over the past three years—far above the industry average of about 68 percent—has been crucial to its success. Maria Harley, Gravity's vice president of operations, looks at a different set of numbers. While the company had to hire 10 more people than anticipated to handle the new business, most nonlabor costs—rent, technology, etc.—have remained the same, thus improving operating ratios. "We don't need our sales to double," she says. "We only need them to increase marginally—by about 25 to 30 percent. When I started being more logical than emotional about this, I said, 'This is totally possible.'"

Six months after Price's announcement, Gravity has defied doubters. Revenue is growing at double the previous rate. Profits have also doubled. Gravity did lose a few customers: Some objected to what seemed like a political statement that put pressure on them to raise their own wages; others feared price hikes or service cutbacks. But media reports suggesting that panicked customers were fleeing have proved false. In fact, Gravity's customer retention rate rose from 91 to 95 percent in the second quarter. Only two employees quit—a nonevent. Jason Haley isn't one of them. He is still an employee, and a better paid one.

In fact, the biggest threat to Price's company isn't his strategy; it's his brother. Lucas's lawsuit, scheduled to be heard in May, could ruin Gravity. Price estimates legal fees will reach $1 million by then. The suit was filed on April 24, 11 days after the pay-raise announcement—perhaps to pressure Dan to sell when Gravity was in the limelight, thus maximizing the value of Lucas's share. Dan says Lucas has refused his offer to buy him out for $4 to $5 million. (Lucas's attorney says the suit is unrelated to the raises.)



Company Continues to Grow, Despite Raises
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