Kareem vs Walt Bellamy h2h footage

 
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2015 10:36 am    Post subject: Kareem vs Walt Bellamy h2h footage

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2015 11:09 am    Post subject:

Walt was a great player and one of the centers whom I believe gets under appreciated. Career 20/14 guy, tell me we wouldn't love to have a guy like that right now. Even in his later career he was still doing 12/10.

His rookie season was 31/19. Wow.

He clearly was not on Jabbar's level, but I knew he was always a tough matchup for whom ever the Lakers could throw at him, whether it was Wilt or Jabbar.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2015 1:22 pm    Post subject:

Wino wrote:
Walt was a great player and one of the centers whom I believe gets under appreciated. Career 20/14 guy, tell me we wouldn't love to have a guy like that right now. Even in his later career he was still doing 12/10.

His rookie season was 31/19. Wow.

He clearly was not on Jabbar's level, but I knew he was always a tough matchup for whom ever the Lakers could throw at him, whether it was Wilt or Jabbar.


Bellamy had a weird career: His best season was his first, and he made the all-star team his first four years and never again. He was traded every three or four years. The rap against him was he excelled putting up great stats on bad teams, but was less impressive as his teammates got better, in part because he was lazy and didn't put out consistent effort.

He's not remembered much, but opinions are divided among those who do recall him. Took him 20 years to get in the Hall and not everyone feel he belongs there.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2015 1:45 pm    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
Wino wrote:
Walt was a great player and one of the centers whom I believe gets under appreciated. Career 20/14 guy, tell me we wouldn't love to have a guy like that right now. Even in his later career he was still doing 12/10.

His rookie season was 31/19. Wow.

He clearly was not on Jabbar's level, but I knew he was always a tough matchup for whom ever the Lakers could throw at him, whether it was Wilt or Jabbar.


Bellamy had a weird career: His best season was his first, and he made the all-star team his first four years and never again. He was traded every three or four years. The rap against him was he excelled putting up great stats on bad teams, but was less impressive as his teammates got better, in part because he was lazy and didn't put out consistent effort.

He's not remembered much, but opinions are divided among those who do recall him. Took him 20 years to get in the Hall and not everyone feel he belongs there.

All players I've heard testimony from feel he belongs there. Only person I'm aware of who thinks he shouldn't be there was some writer who's name escapes me who is known for having notoriously negative/controversial opinions.

Bellamy's stand out trait was his ability to drive. He topped out at 270 yet could put the ball on the floor and still blow by most of the leagues centers with his first step left or right, even does so against young Jabbar in that film. He was criticized by some coaches for not always having his head in the right place though, that much is true. He also is accused of playing great vs the other greats, but taking it easy against lesser teams. So, he'd drop 40 against Wilt or Russell two nights in a row. Than go and drop 20 points against Imhoff and/or letting Imhoff get 25+ on him type of thing. That's what I've heard at least. His talent against the greats was there though, he could hold his own with the best centers of that era and played them a LOT.

Played Wilt 100 times, played Russell 75 times, played Nate Thurmond 62 times, Willis Reed 39 times, and Jabbar 24 times. That h2h matchup frequency against serious HOF talent is unheard of today. And for reference he averaged 24ppg against both Bill Russell and Wilt Chamberlain in those 175 times he played both of them.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2015 2:25 pm    Post subject:

dantheman9758 wrote:
All players I've heard testimony from feel he belongs there. .


Can't say I remember any quotes about him from specific players. On his NBA.com profile, his first coach Bob Leonard is quoted as saying: "Walt wasn't a highly motivated player, night in and night out. He'd have some great games and then he'd have one where he didn't show up. But he was an excellent player."
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2015 2:55 pm    Post subject:

all these wilt chamberlain archives are blowing my mind. They are really making me think differently about how they played back in those days. I don't buy anymore this idea that players now are more athletic. and the skills, my god. these older guys, as a general whole, are way more skilled than the modern players. look at this bellamy guy, he's been forgotten over the decades...but if he's playing like that, he might be a #1 draft pick right now.
i keep having this visual of wilt getting his enormous numbers, towering over weak little guys. but it's not! these guys are good, and strong, and athletic. So wilt's numbers are kind of more impressive now.

the open floor...i miss the open floor. Watching the games with the zone rules now is so ugly. cramped spaces everywhere, not much room for the basketball "ballet".
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2015 3:00 pm    Post subject:

So weird not seeing any help defense. Now, there would be a second guy sitting in both of their laps trying to strip the ball on every play.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2015 3:22 pm    Post subject:

LakersRGolden wrote:
So weird not seeing any help defense. Now, there would be a second guy sitting in both of their laps trying to strip the ball on every play.



Yup, the style of play was dramatically different back then. And this is basically a highlight reel so it's hard to judge in any case.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2015 3:40 pm    Post subject:

SuperboyReformed wrote:
all these wilt chamberlain archives are blowing my mind. They are really making me think differently about how they played back in those days. I don't buy anymore this idea that players now are more athletic. and the skills, my god. these older guys, as a general whole, are way more skilled than the modern players. look at this bellamy guy, he's been forgotten over the decades...but if he's playing like that, he might be a #1 draft pick right now.
i keep having this visual of wilt getting his enormous numbers, towering over weak little guys. but it's not! these guys are good, and strong, and athletic. So wilt's numbers are kind of more impressive now.

the open floor...i miss the open floor. Watching the games with the zone rules now is so ugly. cramped spaces everywhere, not much room for the basketball "ballet".

The game was different back then, but not as different as people think. As a whole, the league was typically played less acrobatically. In part because there were fewer acrobatic above the rim type of players (specifically, I'm talking about wing players) though that doesn't mean there were none just fewer, and also in part because of the no-hotdogging (showboating) stigma and trend of that time. Players who tried to play like MJ eventually played like got put on their ass by big centers like Bellamy back then. I think center play was at it's absolute pinnacle in the late 60's and early 70's. NOT in the 1990's as many people believe. The 90's group of centers may have been similarly talented to the late 60's/early 70's group however the late 60's early 70's group played each other a hell of a lot more being that the league was smaller. That's my two cents. So yeah, centers back then are marvelous to watch, Bellamy was only the 4th best center anchoring a league of 9 teams. In an era of Wilt Chamberlain and Bill Russell, you had to field GREAT players down low or your team had NO chance.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2015 5:57 am    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
Wino wrote:
Walt was a great player and one of the centers whom I believe gets under appreciated. Career 20/14 guy, tell me we wouldn't love to have a guy like that right now. Even in his later career he was still doing 12/10.

His rookie season was 31/19. Wow.

He clearly was not on Jabbar's level, but I knew he was always a tough matchup for whom ever the Lakers could throw at him, whether it was Wilt or Jabbar.


Bellamy had a weird career: His best season was his first, and he made the all-star team his first four years and never again. He was traded every three or four years. The rap against him was he excelled putting up great stats on bad teams, but was less impressive as his teammates got better, in part because he was lazy and didn't put out consistent effort.

He's not remembered much, but opinions are divided among those who do recall him. Took him 20 years to get in the Hall and not everyone feel he belongs there.


Bells was not a great player in his era IMO. He was big when being big made the biggest difference, but he was rather a selfish player. A bull, much like today's D-Cousins. He didn't play well with others. He had five big years early, then was injured. He showed little game feel in terms of making good use of the Knicks talent, for example. He was a defensive liability against his equals. He is probably is one of the few big men to whom I object to having been enshrined in the Naismith HoF. I always felt that his teams and game impact was very small, considering what other big men were pulling off at the same time.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2015 6:05 am    Post subject:

dantheman9758 wrote:
SuperboyReformed wrote:
all these wilt chamberlain archives are blowing my mind. They are really making me think differently about how they played back in those days. I don't buy anymore this idea that players now are more athletic. and the skills, my god. these older guys, as a general whole, are way more skilled than the modern players. look at this bellamy guy, he's been forgotten over the decades...but if he's playing like that, he might be a #1 draft pick right now.
i keep having this visual of wilt getting his enormous numbers, towering over weak little guys. but it's not! these guys are good, and strong, and athletic. So wilt's numbers are kind of more impressive now.

the open floor...i miss the open floor. Watching the games with the zone rules now is so ugly. cramped spaces everywhere, not much room for the basketball "ballet".

The game was different back then, but not as different as people think. As a whole, the league was typically played less acrobatically. In part because there were fewer acrobatic above the rim type of players (specifically, I'm talking about wing players) though that doesn't mean there were none just fewer, and also in part because of the no-hotdogging (showboating) stigma and trend of that time. Players who tried to play like MJ eventually played like got put on their ass by big centers like Bellamy back then. I think center play was at it's absolute pinnacle in the late 60's and early 70's. NOT in the 1990's as many people believe. The 90's group of centers may have been similarly talented to the late 60's/early 70's group however the late 60's early 70's group played each other a hell of a lot more being that the league was smaller. That's my two cents. So yeah, centers back then are marvelous to watch, Bellamy was only the 4th best center anchoring a league of 9 teams. In an era of Wilt Chamberlain and Bill Russell, you had to field GREAT players down low or your team had NO chance.


The change in rule enforcement is staggering. Today's palming of the ball on the dribble and the extra steps permitted on the dribble drive make those acrobatic moves possible. Before the ABA/NBA merger, those techniques were whistled for violations; afterwards, not.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2015 9:42 am    Post subject:

70sdude wrote:
activeverb wrote:
Wino wrote:
Walt was a great player and one of the centers whom I believe gets under appreciated. Career 20/14 guy, tell me we wouldn't love to have a guy like that right now. Even in his later career he was still doing 12/10.

His rookie season was 31/19. Wow.

He clearly was not on Jabbar's level, but I knew he was always a tough matchup for whom ever the Lakers could throw at him, whether it was Wilt or Jabbar.


Bellamy had a weird career: His best season was his first, and he made the all-star team his first four years and never again. He was traded every three or four years. The rap against him was he excelled putting up great stats on bad teams, but was less impressive as his teammates got better, in part because he was lazy and didn't put out consistent effort.

He's not remembered much, but opinions are divided among those who do recall him. Took him 20 years to get in the Hall and not everyone feel he belongs there.


Bells was not a great player in his era IMO. He was big when being big made the biggest difference, but he was rather a selfish player. A bull, much like today's D-Cousins. He didn't play well with others. He had five big years early, then was injured. He showed little game feel in terms of making good use of the Knicks talent, for example. He was a defensive liability against his equals. He is probably is one of the few big men to whom I object to having been enshrined in the Naismith HoF. I always felt that his teams and game impact was very small, considering what other big men were pulling off at the same time.


As I said, lots of conflicting opinions about him. Wasn't regarded as a good defender. Tended to play well against good betters, but slack off against weak ones. Charley Rosen said players of his era sarcastically called him "tinker bell" for being weak, but some have argued against that. By and large, hardly anyone cares: Bellamy is pretty much a forgotten player.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2015 2:32 pm    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
70sdude wrote:
activeverb wrote:
Wino wrote:
Walt was a great player and one of the centers whom I believe gets under appreciated. Career 20/14 guy, tell me we wouldn't love to have a guy like that right now. Even in his later career he was still doing 12/10.

His rookie season was 31/19. Wow.

He clearly was not on Jabbar's level, but I knew he was always a tough matchup for whom ever the Lakers could throw at him, whether it was Wilt or Jabbar.


Bellamy had a weird career: His best season was his first, and he made the all-star team his first four years and never again. He was traded every three or four years. The rap against him was he excelled putting up great stats on bad teams, but was less impressive as his teammates got better, in part because he was lazy and didn't put out consistent effort.

He's not remembered much, but opinions are divided among those who do recall him. Took him 20 years to get in the Hall and not everyone feel he belongs there.


Bells was not a great player in his era IMO. He was big when being big made the biggest difference, but he was rather a selfish player. A bull, much like today's D-Cousins. He didn't play well with others. He had five big years early, then was injured. He showed little game feel in terms of making good use of the Knicks talent, for example. He was a defensive liability against his equals. He is probably is one of the few big men to whom I object to having been enshrined in the Naismith HoF. I always felt that his teams and game impact was very small, considering what other big men were pulling off at the same time.


As I said, lots of conflicting opinions about him. Wasn't regarded as a good defender. Tended to play well against good betters, but slack off against weak ones. Charley Rosen said players of his era sarcastically called him "tinker bell" for being weak, but some have argued against that. By and large, hardly anyone cares: Bellamy is pretty much a forgotten player.

Rosen is the guy I was talking about with ridiculous opinions towards players. He's the ONLY one who I've ever heard thinks Bellamy shouldn't have been in the HOF.

And Bellamy wasn't considered a poor defensive player as far as I know. Lakers Coach Fred Schauss says he defends well in that video. I'd trust an opposing NBA coaches opinion over Charley Rosens. But that's just me.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2015 2:35 pm    Post subject:

70sdude wrote:
dantheman9758 wrote:
SuperboyReformed wrote:
all these wilt chamberlain archives are blowing my mind. They are really making me think differently about how they played back in those days. I don't buy anymore this idea that players now are more athletic. and the skills, my god. these older guys, as a general whole, are way more skilled than the modern players. look at this bellamy guy, he's been forgotten over the decades...but if he's playing like that, he might be a #1 draft pick right now.
i keep having this visual of wilt getting his enormous numbers, towering over weak little guys. but it's not! these guys are good, and strong, and athletic. So wilt's numbers are kind of more impressive now.

the open floor...i miss the open floor. Watching the games with the zone rules now is so ugly. cramped spaces everywhere, not much room for the basketball "ballet".

The game was different back then, but not as different as people think. As a whole, the league was typically played less acrobatically. In part because there were fewer acrobatic above the rim type of players (specifically, I'm talking about wing players) though that doesn't mean there were none just fewer, and also in part because of the no-hotdogging (showboating) stigma and trend of that time. Players who tried to play like MJ eventually played like got put on their ass by big centers like Bellamy back then. I think center play was at it's absolute pinnacle in the late 60's and early 70's. NOT in the 1990's as many people believe. The 90's group of centers may have been similarly talented to the late 60's/early 70's group however the late 60's early 70's group played each other a hell of a lot more being that the league was smaller. That's my two cents. So yeah, centers back then are marvelous to watch, Bellamy was only the 4th best center anchoring a league of 9 teams. In an era of Wilt Chamberlain and Bill Russell, you had to field GREAT players down low or your team had NO chance.


The change in rule enforcement is staggering. Today's palming of the ball on the dribble and the extra steps permitted on the dribble drive make those acrobatic moves possible. Before the ABA/NBA merger, those techniques were whistled for violations; afterwards, not.

I don't think it's staggering, I think it's subtle. The game is still the same game, on the same sized floor, with the same number of players. You rebound you pass you shoot. Some defensive freedoms are different, some of the offensive freedoms are different. But the core of the game is still more similar than dissimilar. I think the NCAA to FIBA to NBA game today is not much different a transition than the NBA game of today to the NBA game of the early 1970's. It's different to be certain, but it's all still recognizably the sport of basketball.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2015 2:59 pm    Post subject:

dantheman9758 wrote:
activeverb wrote:
70sdude wrote:
activeverb wrote:
Wino wrote:
Walt was a great player and one of the centers whom I believe gets under appreciated. Career 20/14 guy, tell me we wouldn't love to have a guy like that right now. Even in his later career he was still doing 12/10.

His rookie season was 31/19. Wow.

He clearly was not on Jabbar's level, but I knew he was always a tough matchup for whom ever the Lakers could throw at him, whether it was Wilt or Jabbar.


Bellamy had a weird career: His best season was his first, and he made the all-star team his first four years and never again. He was traded every three or four years. The rap against him was he excelled putting up great stats on bad teams, but was less impressive as his teammates got better, in part because he was lazy and didn't put out consistent effort.

He's not remembered much, but opinions are divided among those who do recall him. Took him 20 years to get in the Hall and not everyone feel he belongs there.


Bells was not a great player in his era IMO. He was big when being big made the biggest difference, but he was rather a selfish player. A bull, much like today's D-Cousins. He didn't play well with others. He had five big years early, then was injured. He showed little game feel in terms of making good use of the Knicks talent, for example. He was a defensive liability against his equals. He is probably is one of the few big men to whom I object to having been enshrined in the Naismith HoF. I always felt that his teams and game impact was very small, considering what other big men were pulling off at the same time.


As I said, lots of conflicting opinions about him. Wasn't regarded as a good defender. Tended to play well against good betters, but slack off against weak ones. Charley Rosen said players of his era sarcastically called him "tinker bell" for being weak, but some have argued against that. By and large, hardly anyone cares: Bellamy is pretty much a forgotten player.

Rosen is the guy I was talking about with ridiculous opinions towards players. He's the ONLY one who I've ever heard thinks Bellamy shouldn't have been in the HOF.

And Bellamy wasn't considered a poor defensive player as far as I know. Lakers Coach Fred Schauss says he defends well in that video. I'd trust an opposing NBA coaches opinion over Charley Rosens. But that's just me.


I've heard some other people say Bellamy doesn't deserve to be in the Hall. And some who think he does. But, honestly, both sides are small -- he's not a name I hear people talk about much. Anyway, I've said all I have to say on the topic.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2015 4:13 pm    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
dantheman9758 wrote:
activeverb wrote:
70sdude wrote:
activeverb wrote:
Wino wrote:
Walt was a great player and one of the centers whom I believe gets under appreciated. Career 20/14 guy, tell me we wouldn't love to have a guy like that right now. Even in his later career he was still doing 12/10.

His rookie season was 31/19. Wow.

He clearly was not on Jabbar's level, but I knew he was always a tough matchup for whom ever the Lakers could throw at him, whether it was Wilt or Jabbar.


Bellamy had a weird career: His best season was his first, and he made the all-star team his first four years and never again. He was traded every three or four years. The rap against him was he excelled putting up great stats on bad teams, but was less impressive as his teammates got better, in part because he was lazy and didn't put out consistent effort.

He's not remembered much, but opinions are divided among those who do recall him. Took him 20 years to get in the Hall and not everyone feel he belongs there.


Bells was not a great player in his era IMO. He was big when being big made the biggest difference, but he was rather a selfish player. A bull, much like today's D-Cousins. He didn't play well with others. He had five big years early, then was injured. He showed little game feel in terms of making good use of the Knicks talent, for example. He was a defensive liability against his equals. He is probably is one of the few big men to whom I object to having been enshrined in the Naismith HoF. I always felt that his teams and game impact was very small, considering what other big men were pulling off at the same time.


As I said, lots of conflicting opinions about him. Wasn't regarded as a good defender. Tended to play well against good betters, but slack off against weak ones. Charley Rosen said players of his era sarcastically called him "tinker bell" for being weak, but some have argued against that. By and large, hardly anyone cares: Bellamy is pretty much a forgotten player.

Rosen is the guy I was talking about with ridiculous opinions towards players. He's the ONLY one who I've ever heard thinks Bellamy shouldn't have been in the HOF.

And Bellamy wasn't considered a poor defensive player as far as I know. Lakers Coach Fred Schauss says he defends well in that video. I'd trust an opposing NBA coaches opinion over Charley Rosens. But that's just me.


I've heard some other people say Bellamy doesn't deserve to be in the Hall. And some who think he does. But, honestly, both sides are small -- he's not a name I hear people talk about much. Anyway, I've said all I have to say on the topic.

dantheman, i appreciate all the additional info, thanks. Even though there is very little info out there and the guy is largely forgotten, it doesn't mean he wasn't good or an interesting discussion for NBA history. There could be many personal reasons why he is not remembered, but seeing these videos shows me that he was indeed pretty good. that's the great thing about these videos...it reveals a lot about this sort of forgotten eras...people's memories are unreliable, and especially their opinions.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2015 4:38 pm    Post subject:

SuperboyReformed wrote:
activeverb wrote:
dantheman9758 wrote:
activeverb wrote:
70sdude wrote:
activeverb wrote:
Wino wrote:
Walt was a great player and one of the centers whom I believe gets under appreciated. Career 20/14 guy, tell me we wouldn't love to have a guy like that right now. Even in his later career he was still doing 12/10.

His rookie season was 31/19. Wow.

He clearly was not on Jabbar's level, but I knew he was always a tough matchup for whom ever the Lakers could throw at him, whether it was Wilt or Jabbar.


Bellamy had a weird career: His best season was his first, and he made the all-star team his first four years and never again. He was traded every three or four years. The rap against him was he excelled putting up great stats on bad teams, but was less impressive as his teammates got better, in part because he was lazy and didn't put out consistent effort.

He's not remembered much, but opinions are divided among those who do recall him. Took him 20 years to get in the Hall and not everyone feel he belongs there.


Bells was not a great player in his era IMO. He was big when being big made the biggest difference, but he was rather a selfish player. A bull, much like today's D-Cousins. He didn't play well with others. He had five big years early, then was injured. He showed little game feel in terms of making good use of the Knicks talent, for example. He was a defensive liability against his equals. He is probably is one of the few big men to whom I object to having been enshrined in the Naismith HoF. I always felt that his teams and game impact was very small, considering what other big men were pulling off at the same time.


As I said, lots of conflicting opinions about him. Wasn't regarded as a good defender. Tended to play well against good betters, but slack off against weak ones. Charley Rosen said players of his era sarcastically called him "tinker bell" for being weak, but some have argued against that. By and large, hardly anyone cares: Bellamy is pretty much a forgotten player.

Rosen is the guy I was talking about with ridiculous opinions towards players. He's the ONLY one who I've ever heard thinks Bellamy shouldn't have been in the HOF.

And Bellamy wasn't considered a poor defensive player as far as I know. Lakers Coach Fred Schauss says he defends well in that video. I'd trust an opposing NBA coaches opinion over Charley Rosens. But that's just me.


I've heard some other people say Bellamy doesn't deserve to be in the Hall. And some who think he does. But, honestly, both sides are small -- he's not a name I hear people talk about much. Anyway, I've said all I have to say on the topic.

dantheman, i appreciate all the additional info, thanks. Even though there is very little info out there and the guy is largely forgotten, it doesn't mean he wasn't good or an interesting discussion for NBA history. There could be many personal reasons why he is not remembered, but seeing these videos shows me that he was indeed pretty good. that's the great thing about these videos...it reveals a lot about this sort of forgotten eras...people's memories are unreliable, and especially their opinions.



I don't think anyone is saying Bellamy wasn't good. The guy was a four-time all-star who put up impressive stats.

The question isn't whether Bellamy was good; it's how good was he. And that is a complex question with a lot of nuances.

I don't think many people consider him one of the top 20 centers ever. For me, he's a borderline Hall of Famer -- I can see the case for and against him.

Like most guys who flourished in the early 60s, it's hard to know how to really place him.

He's forgotten for a lot of reasons: he played a long time ago; the really impressive part of his career ended in 1965; his best season was his rookie year and he dropped off faster than most HoFamers do; he put up great stats, but they don't seem great in comparison with the top guys of his era; he never won and mostly played on bad teams; the Knicks won a ring after getting rid of him.

And the videos do tell you something, but they're also a highlight reel so you also have to realize it's only telling you part of the story. And, yes, memories can be faulty, but memories and opinions of the people during the time are important as well.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2015 9:25 pm    Post subject:

Those Baltimore teams with Bellamy, Bailey Howell, Don Ohl, Kevin Loughery etc. were fun to watch.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2015 9:32 pm    Post subject:

DanielCollins wrote:
Those Baltimore teams with Bellamy, Bailey Howell, Don Ohl, Kevin Loughery etc. were fun to watch.



They were a high-scoring, no defense team. I think the two years those guys played together they were second in the league in scoring, and first in the league in points allowed, which resulted in about a .470 winning percentage.
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