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GoldenThroat
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 Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2015 10:42 am Post subject: |
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The matchup with the Rockets would have gone beyond the center position, although nearly every series Jordan's Bulls ever lost were to the guys who were listed earlier. He was 15-7 in playoff series against those guys (10-0 vs. Ewing & Daugherty), and 15-1 against everyone else, with the lone loss being against the Bucks, who had a very good center in Jack Sikma.
Anyway, beyond Olajuwon, Maxwell & Horry were a very difficult matchup for Jordan & Pippen on both ends. Maxwell defended Jordan quite well, and Horry was one of the few SFs in the league who had the quickness and length to stay with Pippen. On the other end, the defensive talents of Pippen & Jordan were kind of wasted, as they were mostly spot up shooters. Although "Mad Max" did lose his mind every so often and try to take over a game. (and sometimes he did)
I also always felt that the Knicks were only hyped up as much as they were because they were from New York. Outside of Ewing, those weren't great teams. Not just in terms of talent, but how they fit together. Ewing definitely didn't have the shooters around him that Olajuwon did. |
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Dreamshake
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| Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2015 4:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Drifts wrote: | | Dreamshake wrote: | | Drifts wrote: | | Telleris wrote: |
If they'd met 5 nba finals in a row (91-95), Houston would have won 3-2 or even 4-1, if they'd met 96-98, Chicago would have won 3-0. |
there was a reason Houston couldn't make it to the finals before Jordan retired, it was that they weren't really that good... and if Jordan had not retired, I don't think the 94-95 Houston can beat Jordan and Scottie (even without Horace) |
You have to remember Horry wasn't drafted until 93 (and he didn't turn the corner until the failed Elliott trade in 94 because he didn't wanna shoot) and Cassell wasn't drafted until 94. They were very important pieces for a team that only had one star player. I have no doubts the 94 and 95 teams would have beaten the Bulls with Jordan. It's laughable to suggest that they would lose to the Bulls without Jordan though.
As far as the C's Jordan faced, he faced plenty of great C's getting to the Finals. Ewing, Shaq and Mourning. Smits and Laimbeer as well (not great but good). |
I give Hakeem a good chance of beating Jordan and Pippen, but in the end, Bulls win. Won't be easy though, Hakeem was a monster those 2 years. But that would make Jordan just want to beat him more, to show he was even better.
Sad that Jordan's gambling problem got in the way of that dream matchup. |
Unless Jordan could grow and play C then I'm not sure how him "wanting to beat him more" would help the Bulls contain Hakeem. I'm sure Jordan "really really" wanted to win every year he played. |
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SuperboyReformed
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| Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2015 4:25 pm Post subject: |
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| GoldenThroat wrote: | The matchup with the Rockets would have gone beyond the center position, although nearly every series Jordan's Bulls ever lost were to the guys who were listed earlier. He was 15-7 in playoff series against those guys (10-0 vs. Ewing & Daugherty), and 15-1 against everyone else, with the lone loss being against the Bucks, who had a very good center in Jack Sikma.
Anyway, beyond Olajuwon, Maxwell & Horry were a very difficult matchup for Jordan & Pippen on both ends. Maxwell defended Jordan quite well, and Horry was one of the few SFs in the league who had the quickness and length to stay with Pippen. On the other end, the defensive talents of Pippen & Jordan were kind of wasted, as they were mostly spot up shooters. Although "Mad Max" did lose his mind every so often and try to take over a game. (and sometimes he did)
I also always felt that the Knicks were only hyped up as much as they were because they were from New York. Outside of Ewing, those weren't great teams. Not just in terms of talent, but how they fit together. Ewing definitely didn't have the shooters around him that Olajuwon did. |
I think i agree with everything here, sounds pretty accurate.
good points about the defensive talents being wasted, that's something rarely think about when considering advantages/disadvatages. Also, what houston was doing with that team was kind of "new" for the NBA, with the shooters and Hakeem's unusual combination of tricky moves and raw power.
I'll have to go back to the heart of the champion playoffs, and see really what were the other teams underestimating in those rockets? were they being underestimated, or was it simply a no answer for hakeem thing? i have a feeling its the former...rarely do playoff teams not have an answer for a specific player...but for multiple ones or a clever strategy, it does happen.
i gotta say, hakeem's career is very unusual overall. he has the sampson years, and then seemingly in another era, his championship years. |
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Dreamshake
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| Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2015 4:35 pm Post subject: |
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| SuperboyReformed wrote: |
Also, what houston was doing with that team was kind of "new" for the NBA, with the shooters and Hakeem's unusual combination of tricky moves and raw power. |
It somewhat was. Horry was one of the first small-ball, stretch 4's.
| SuperboyReformed wrote: |
i have a feeling its the former...rarely do playoff teams not have an answer for a specific player...but for multiple ones or a clever strategy, it does happen. |
It's the latter. Houston had the best player in the game with a good supporting cast, and good health. That's the formula for plenty of title teams, especially when the player is a C that can dominate on both ends.
| SuperboyReformed wrote: |
i gotta say, hakeem's career is very unusual overall. he has the sampson years, and then seemingly in another era, his championship years. |
Hakeem's career is a perfect example of what happens when you have help (Finals with Sampson, titles with the 94/95 cast, WCF's with Barkley/Drexler) and when you don't. |
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SuperboyReformed
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| Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2015 4:43 pm Post subject: |
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| SuperboyReformed wrote: |
i have a feeling its the former...rarely do playoff teams not have an answer for a specific player...but for multiple ones or a clever strategy, it does happen. |
It's the latter. Houston had the best player in the game with a good supporting cast, and good health. That's the formula for plenty of title teams, especially when the player is a C that can dominate on both ends.
thanks for confirming. that's what i meant, the latter (my sentence doesn't make sense). Since even the Wilt times, most teams can figure out how to stop one guy. but if there are multiple things going on, that's not as easy. unlike baseball or football, where you're not going anywhere without a star quarterback or star pitcher. |
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SuperboyReformed
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| Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2015 4:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | SuperboyReformed wrote: | | SuperboyReformed wrote: |
i have a feeling its the former...rarely do playoff teams not have an answer for a specific player...but for multiple ones or a clever strategy, it does happen. |
It's the latter. Houston had the best player in the game with a good supporting cast, and good health. That's the formula for plenty of title teams, especially when the player is a C that can dominate on both ends. |
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thanks for confirming. that's what i meant, the latter (my sentence doesn't make sense). Since even the Wilt times, most teams can figure out how to stop one guy. but if there are multiple things going on, that's not as easy. unlike baseball or football, where you're not going anywhere without a star quarterback or star pitcher. |
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activeverb
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| Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2015 5:57 pm Post subject: |
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| SuperboyReformed wrote: | | Here's something no one talks about with MJ, he never really beat a great center in the playoffs. I think it's somewhat unusual for a guy of his status. He played ewing i think when he was old, but no one like hakeem or anything. |
The Bulls beat lots of great centers during their two threepeats.
In 95-96 playoffs alone, the Bulls beat three teams with Hall of Fame centers -- Alonzo Mourning, Shaquille O'Neal, and Patrick Ewing.
Oh, and the first time the Bulls beat Ewing during their first threepeat, he was only 28, and coming off a 27-11 season.
In the other five years of their two threepeats, the Bulls beat teams with Dikembe Mutumbo, Smits, Divac, Daughtery, Duckworth, and Bill Lambier.
That's a pretty damn group of centers.
They didn't play Hakeem and David Robinson, but that's because their teams didn't make the finals. |
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Telleris
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| Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2015 3:47 pm Post subject: |
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| activeverb wrote: | | SuperboyReformed wrote: | | Here's something no one talks about with MJ, he never really beat a great center in the playoffs. I think it's somewhat unusual for a guy of his status. He played ewing i think when he was old, but no one like hakeem or anything. |
The Bulls beat lots of great centers during their two threepeats.
In 95-96 playoffs alone, the Bulls beat three teams with Hall of Fame centers -- Alonzo Mourning, Shaquille O'Neal, and Patrick Ewing.
Oh, and the first time the Bulls beat Ewing during their first threepeat, he was only 28, and coming off a 27-11 season.
In the other five years of their two threepeats, the Bulls beat teams with Dikembe Mutumbo, Smits, Divac, Daughtery, Duckworth, and Bill Lambier.
That's a pretty damn group of centers.
They didn't play Hakeem and David Robinson, but that's because their teams didn't make the finals. |
You can't really compare the 96-98 teams to the 91-93 teams, that team was completely rebuilt so michael, scottie and phil were the only people there in 96 who were there is 93, that second team was an all time great team, that first one, was michael and a bit of help. Michael was better in the first 3, but the lack of quality depth basically offset the positives scottie and horace provided.
The east was really weak after year 1 and the west winner kept being distinct matchup advantages for the bulls, the 2nd 3 it didn't really matter who came out of the west, their talent pool was just night and day above anyone else, they could have probably won 2 of 3 without scottie.
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Drifts
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| Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2015 10:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Dreamshake wrote: | | Drifts wrote: | | Dreamshake wrote: | | Drifts wrote: | | Telleris wrote: |
If they'd met 5 nba finals in a row (91-95), Houston would have won 3-2 or even 4-1, if they'd met 96-98, Chicago would have won 3-0. |
there was a reason Houston couldn't make it to the finals before Jordan retired, it was that they weren't really that good... and if Jordan had not retired, I don't think the 94-95 Houston can beat Jordan and Scottie (even without Horace) |
You have to remember Horry wasn't drafted until 93 (and he didn't turn the corner until the failed Elliott trade in 94 because he didn't wanna shoot) and Cassell wasn't drafted until 94. They were very important pieces for a team that only had one star player. I have no doubts the 94 and 95 teams would have beaten the Bulls with Jordan. It's laughable to suggest that they would lose to the Bulls without Jordan though.
As far as the C's Jordan faced, he faced plenty of great C's getting to the Finals. Ewing, Shaq and Mourning. Smits and Laimbeer as well (not great but good). |
I give Hakeem a good chance of beating Jordan and Pippen, but in the end, Bulls win. Won't be easy though, Hakeem was a monster those 2 years. But that would make Jordan just want to beat him more, to show he was even better.
Sad that Jordan's gambling problem got in the way of that dream matchup. |
Unless Jordan could grow and play C then I'm not sure how him "wanting to beat him more" would help the Bulls contain Hakeem. I'm sure Jordan "really really" wanted to win every year he played. |
I don't see a problem with Hakeem being contained because Houston will not be able to contain Jordan and Pippen either. Then there was Kukoc too.
anyway, I don't see why Jordan would need to grow more and/or play the C to beat Centers... he's made a career beating bigger men than him. I don't have to list all the big men he beat his entire career, I know.
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"Now, if life is coffee, then the jobs, money & position in society are the cups. They are just tools to hold & contain life, but the quality of life doesn't change. Sometimes, by concentrating only on the cup, we fail to enjoy the coffee in it." |
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activeverb
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| Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2015 9:40 am Post subject: |
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| Drifts wrote: | | Dreamshake wrote: | | Drifts wrote: | | Dreamshake wrote: | | Drifts wrote: | | Telleris wrote: |
If they'd met 5 nba finals in a row (91-95), Houston would have won 3-2 or even 4-1, if they'd met 96-98, Chicago would have won 3-0. |
there was a reason Houston couldn't make it to the finals before Jordan retired, it was that they weren't really that good... and if Jordan had not retired, I don't think the 94-95 Houston can beat Jordan and Scottie (even without Horace) |
You have to remember Horry wasn't drafted until 93 (and he didn't turn the corner until the failed Elliott trade in 94 because he didn't wanna shoot) and Cassell wasn't drafted until 94. They were very important pieces for a team that only had one star player. I have no doubts the 94 and 95 teams would have beaten the Bulls with Jordan. It's laughable to suggest that they would lose to the Bulls without Jordan though.
As far as the C's Jordan faced, he faced plenty of great C's getting to the Finals. Ewing, Shaq and Mourning. Smits and Laimbeer as well (not great but good). |
I give Hakeem a good chance of beating Jordan and Pippen, but in the end, Bulls win. Won't be easy though, Hakeem was a monster those 2 years. But that would make Jordan just want to beat him more, to show he was even better.
Sad that Jordan's gambling problem got in the way of that dream matchup. |
Unless Jordan could grow and play C then I'm not sure how him "wanting to beat him more" would help the Bulls contain Hakeem. I'm sure Jordan "really really" wanted to win every year he played. |
I don't see a problem with Hakeem being contained because Houston will not be able to contain Jordan and Pippen either. Then there was Kukoc too.
anyway, I don't see why Jordan would need to grow more and/or play the C to beat Centers... he's made a career beating bigger men than him. I don't have to list all the big men he beat his entire career, I know. |
Houston did well against the Bulls first threepeat, but they weren't good enough to get into the finals (or even make the playoffs one year). The Bulls second threepeat team was better and handled the Rockets pretty well.
If the Jordan was around for the Rockets two ring years, lots of unanswerable questions. Would the Bulls have been burned out? Would the Rockets have crumbled under the pressure because they lacked championship experience? What the heck would the Bulls team even have looked like? |
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Theseus
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| Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2015 10:02 am Post subject: |
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| Drifts wrote: | | Dreamshake wrote: | | Drifts wrote: | | Dreamshake wrote: | | Drifts wrote: | | Telleris wrote: |
If they'd met 5 nba finals in a row (91-95), Houston would have won 3-2 or even 4-1, if they'd met 96-98, Chicago would have won 3-0. |
there was a reason Houston couldn't make it to the finals before Jordan retired, it was that they weren't really that good... and if Jordan had not retired, I don't think the 94-95 Houston can beat Jordan and Scottie (even without Horace) |
You have to remember Horry wasn't drafted until 93 (and he didn't turn the corner until the failed Elliott trade in 94 because he didn't wanna shoot) and Cassell wasn't drafted until 94. They were very important pieces for a team that only had one star player. I have no doubts the 94 and 95 teams would have beaten the Bulls with Jordan. It's laughable to suggest that they would lose to the Bulls without Jordan though.
As far as the C's Jordan faced, he faced plenty of great C's getting to the Finals. Ewing, Shaq and Mourning. Smits and Laimbeer as well (not great but good). |
I give Hakeem a good chance of beating Jordan and Pippen, but in the end, Bulls win. Won't be easy though, Hakeem was a monster those 2 years. But that would make Jordan just want to beat him more, to show he was even better.
Sad that Jordan's gambling problem got in the way of that dream matchup. |
Unless Jordan could grow and play C then I'm not sure how him "wanting to beat him more" would help the Bulls contain Hakeem. I'm sure Jordan "really really" wanted to win every year he played. |
I don't see a problem with Hakeem being contained because Houston will not be able to contain Jordan and Pippen either. Then there was Kukoc too.
anyway, I don't see why Jordan would need to grow more and/or play the C to beat Centers... he's made a career beating bigger men than him. I don't have to list all the big men he beat his entire career, I know. |
Except Kukoc was only around for the second 3peat.
Pippen and Jordan would be tough to contain, no one is saying it would be easy. People are just saying that Houston matched up with the first 3peat Bulls.
I would argue, and some others already have argued. That the Rockets matched up better with the Bulls than the Knicks (who took chicago to 7 games) matched up.
Vernon Maxwell was a very good player when he had his head on straight, which he often didn't, but he always seemed focused against Jordan.
Robert Horry was a rare small forward (he played that when he was young) that could move his feet really well (again, we're talking early robert horry) but also had the length to keep up with quicker guys. He was there for the third year of the threepeat, and for both championship runs with the rockets.
Houston also had the shooters to burn the Bulls for doubling and tripling Hakeem, which they would have to do to keep Hakeem from dropping 40 on them from the inside. Hakeem was a willing passer out of the double team too, and pretty adept at it.
I would have loved to see this matchup. I would also love to see old game footage between houston and chicago. I also believe Jordan believes they would have beaten anybody, but I wonder what his thoughts were about playing against Hakeem, and the Rockets during that era |
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activeverb
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| Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2015 10:59 am Post subject: |
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| Shlumpledink wrote: | | I also believe Jordan believes they would have beaten anybody, but I wonder what his thoughts were about playing against Hakeem, and the Rockets during that era |
I think Jordan has pretty much addressed this. He had huge respect for Hakeem. And during the first threepeat, the Rockets dominated them in the regular season. But Jordan's opinion was the playoffs are different than the regular season, and he thinks the Rockets would have no rings if he didn't go to play baseball. |
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Drifts
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| Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2015 5:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Shlumpledink wrote: | | Drifts wrote: | | Dreamshake wrote: | | Drifts wrote: | | Dreamshake wrote: | | Drifts wrote: | | Telleris wrote: |
If they'd met 5 nba finals in a row (91-95), Houston would have won 3-2 or even 4-1, if they'd met 96-98, Chicago would have won 3-0. |
there was a reason Houston couldn't make it to the finals before Jordan retired, it was that they weren't really that good... and if Jordan had not retired, I don't think the 94-95 Houston can beat Jordan and Scottie (even without Horace) |
You have to remember Horry wasn't drafted until 93 (and he didn't turn the corner until the failed Elliott trade in 94 because he didn't wanna shoot) and Cassell wasn't drafted until 94. They were very important pieces for a team that only had one star player. I have no doubts the 94 and 95 teams would have beaten the Bulls with Jordan. It's laughable to suggest that they would lose to the Bulls without Jordan though.
As far as the C's Jordan faced, he faced plenty of great C's getting to the Finals. Ewing, Shaq and Mourning. Smits and Laimbeer as well (not great but good). |
I give Hakeem a good chance of beating Jordan and Pippen, but in the end, Bulls win. Won't be easy though, Hakeem was a monster those 2 years. But that would make Jordan just want to beat him more, to show he was even better.
Sad that Jordan's gambling problem got in the way of that dream matchup. |
Unless Jordan could grow and play C then I'm not sure how him "wanting to beat him more" would help the Bulls contain Hakeem. I'm sure Jordan "really really" wanted to win every year he played. |
I don't see a problem with Hakeem being contained because Houston will not be able to contain Jordan and Pippen either. Then there was Kukoc too.
anyway, I don't see why Jordan would need to grow more and/or play the C to beat Centers... he's made a career beating bigger men than him. I don't have to list all the big men he beat his entire career, I know. |
Except Kukoc was only around for the second 3peat.
Pippen and Jordan would be tough to contain, no one is saying it would be easy. People are just saying that Houston matched up with the first 3peat Bulls.
I would argue, and some others already have argued. That the Rockets matched up better with the Bulls than the Knicks (who took chicago to 7 games) matched up.
Vernon Maxwell was a very good player when he had his head on straight, which he often didn't, but he always seemed focused against Jordan.
Robert Horry was a rare small forward (he played that when he was young) that could move his feet really well (again, we're talking early robert horry) but also had the length to keep up with quicker guys. He was there for the third year of the threepeat, and for both championship runs with the rockets.
Houston also had the shooters to burn the Bulls for doubling and tripling Hakeem, which they would have to do to keep Hakeem from dropping 40 on them from the inside. Hakeem was a willing passer out of the double team too, and pretty adept at it.
I would have loved to see this matchup. I would also love to see old game footage between houston and chicago. I also believe Jordan believes they would have beaten anybody, but I wonder what his thoughts were about playing against Hakeem, and the Rockets during that era |
Toni Kukoc was around the year after Jordan retired, which was the year Houston got their first ring. I am not saying Houston was easy pickings. All I'm saying is that when the dust settles, the Bulls beat the Rockets.
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"Now, if life is coffee, then the jobs, money & position in society are the cups. They are just tools to hold & contain life, but the quality of life doesn't change. Sometimes, by concentrating only on the cup, we fail to enjoy the coffee in it." |
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SuperboyReformed
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| Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2015 8:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Drifts wrote: | | Shlumpledink wrote: | | Drifts wrote: | | Dreamshake wrote: | | Drifts wrote: | | Dreamshake wrote: | | Drifts wrote: | | Telleris wrote: |
If they'd met 5 nba finals in a row (91-95), Houston would have won 3-2 or even 4-1, if they'd met 96-98, Chicago would have won 3-0. |
there was a reason Houston couldn't make it to the finals before Jordan retired, it was that they weren't really that good... and if Jordan had not retired, I don't think the 94-95 Houston can beat Jordan and Scottie (even without Horace) |
You have to remember Horry wasn't drafted until 93 (and he didn't turn the corner until the failed Elliott trade in 94 because he didn't wanna shoot) and Cassell wasn't drafted until 94. They were very important pieces for a team that only had one star player. I have no doubts the 94 and 95 teams would have beaten the Bulls with Jordan. It's laughable to suggest that they would lose to the Bulls without Jordan though.
As far as the C's Jordan faced, he faced plenty of great C's getting to the Finals. Ewing, Shaq and Mourning. Smits and Laimbeer as well (not great but good). |
I give Hakeem a good chance of beating Jordan and Pippen, but in the end, Bulls win. Won't be easy though, Hakeem was a monster those 2 years. But that would make Jordan just want to beat him more, to show he was even better.
Sad that Jordan's gambling problem got in the way of that dream matchup. |
Unless Jordan could grow and play C then I'm not sure how him "wanting to beat him more" would help the Bulls contain Hakeem. I'm sure Jordan "really really" wanted to win every year he played. |
I don't see a problem with Hakeem being contained because Houston will not be able to contain Jordan and Pippen either. Then there was Kukoc too.
anyway, I don't see why Jordan would need to grow more and/or play the C to beat Centers... he's made a career beating bigger men than him. I don't have to list all the big men he beat his entire career, I know. |
Except Kukoc was only around for the second 3peat.
Pippen and Jordan would be tough to contain, no one is saying it would be easy. People are just saying that Houston matched up with the first 3peat Bulls.
I would argue, and some others already have argued. That the Rockets matched up better with the Bulls than the Knicks (who took chicago to 7 games) matched up.
Vernon Maxwell was a very good player when he had his head on straight, which he often didn't, but he always seemed focused against Jordan.
Robert Horry was a rare small forward (he played that when he was young) that could move his feet really well (again, we're talking early robert horry) but also had the length to keep up with quicker guys. He was there for the third year of the threepeat, and for both championship runs with the rockets.
Houston also had the shooters to burn the Bulls for doubling and tripling Hakeem, which they would have to do to keep Hakeem from dropping 40 on them from the inside. Hakeem was a willing passer out of the double team too, and pretty adept at it.
I would have loved to see this matchup. I would also love to see old game footage between houston and chicago. I also believe Jordan believes they would have beaten anybody, but I wonder what his thoughts were about playing against Hakeem, and the Rockets during that era |
Toni Kukoc was around the year after Jordan retired, which was the year Houston got their first ring. I am not saying Houston was easy pickings. All I'm saying is that when the dust settles, the Bulls beat the Rockets. |
Drifts, it seems to me you are insisting that the Bulls will just beat the Rockets. However, you are not addressing the specific points being made about the proven ability of the early Houston teams to beat and give Jordan/Bulls trouble. Shumpledink seems to be making a good case. |
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activeverb
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| Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2015 10:06 pm Post subject: |
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| SuperboyReformed wrote: | | Drifts wrote: | | Shlumpledink wrote: | | Drifts wrote: | | Dreamshake wrote: | | Drifts wrote: | | Dreamshake wrote: | | Drifts wrote: | | Telleris wrote: |
If they'd met 5 nba finals in a row (91-95), Houston would have won 3-2 or even 4-1, if they'd met 96-98, Chicago would have won 3-0. |
there was a reason Houston couldn't make it to the finals before Jordan retired, it was that they weren't really that good... and if Jordan had not retired, I don't think the 94-95 Houston can beat Jordan and Scottie (even without Horace) |
You have to remember Horry wasn't drafted until 93 (and he didn't turn the corner until the failed Elliott trade in 94 because he didn't wanna shoot) and Cassell wasn't drafted until 94. They were very important pieces for a team that only had one star player. I have no doubts the 94 and 95 teams would have beaten the Bulls with Jordan. It's laughable to suggest that they would lose to the Bulls without Jordan though.
As far as the C's Jordan faced, he faced plenty of great C's getting to the Finals. Ewing, Shaq and Mourning. Smits and Laimbeer as well (not great but good). |
I give Hakeem a good chance of beating Jordan and Pippen, but in the end, Bulls win. Won't be easy though, Hakeem was a monster those 2 years. But that would make Jordan just want to beat him more, to show he was even better.
Sad that Jordan's gambling problem got in the way of that dream matchup. |
Unless Jordan could grow and play C then I'm not sure how him "wanting to beat him more" would help the Bulls contain Hakeem. I'm sure Jordan "really really" wanted to win every year he played. |
I don't see a problem with Hakeem being contained because Houston will not be able to contain Jordan and Pippen either. Then there was Kukoc too.
anyway, I don't see why Jordan would need to grow more and/or play the C to beat Centers... he's made a career beating bigger men than him. I don't have to list all the big men he beat his entire career, I know. |
Except Kukoc was only around for the second 3peat.
Pippen and Jordan would be tough to contain, no one is saying it would be easy. People are just saying that Houston matched up with the first 3peat Bulls.
I would argue, and some others already have argued. That the Rockets matched up better with the Bulls than the Knicks (who took chicago to 7 games) matched up.
Vernon Maxwell was a very good player when he had his head on straight, which he often didn't, but he always seemed focused against Jordan.
Robert Horry was a rare small forward (he played that when he was young) that could move his feet really well (again, we're talking early robert horry) but also had the length to keep up with quicker guys. He was there for the third year of the threepeat, and for both championship runs with the rockets.
Houston also had the shooters to burn the Bulls for doubling and tripling Hakeem, which they would have to do to keep Hakeem from dropping 40 on them from the inside. Hakeem was a willing passer out of the double team too, and pretty adept at it.
I would have loved to see this matchup. I would also love to see old game footage between houston and chicago. I also believe Jordan believes they would have beaten anybody, but I wonder what his thoughts were about playing against Hakeem, and the Rockets during that era |
Toni Kukoc was around the year after Jordan retired, which was the year Houston got their first ring. I am not saying Houston was easy pickings. All I'm saying is that when the dust settles, the Bulls beat the Rockets. |
Drifts, it seems to me you are insisting that the Bulls will just beat the Rockets. However, you are not addressing the specific points being made about the proven ability of the early Houston teams to beat and give Jordan/Bulls trouble. Shumpledink seems to be making a good case. |
The Rockets had a proven ability to beat the Jordan-Pippen-Grant Bulls in the regular reason. Could they have done that in the playoffs? We'll never know. Could they have done that if the Jordan-Pippen-Grant Bulls added Kukoc. Again, it never happened, so who knows?
My personal opinion is if MJ had never retired, and the Bulls had faced the Rockets in 94 and 95, I have no idea what the outcome would have been. I can see a reasonable argument being made for why either team would have won, but we'll never have the proof-is-in-the-pudding evidence of it actually happening. |
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1hu2ren3dui4
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| Posted: Sat Aug 29, 2015 7:44 pm Post subject: |
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I felt like the rockets were always thought of champions only because of Jordan's retirement. But I would argue that Hakeem was so dominant in those two playoff runs (especially that second one when they were a low 6 seed or whatever) that they would have taken the Bulls.
The way Hakeem played that second time felt like that Kobe series against the Spurs except in every single round of the playoffs, in which they were underdogs all the way. The way he put that team on his back for that stretch of playoff basketball may have been the most dominant I have ever seen from a player for an entire championship run. |
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Dreamshake
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| Posted: Sun Aug 30, 2015 10:05 pm Post subject: |
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| 1hu2ren3dui4 wrote: | I felt like the rockets were always thought of champions only because of Jordan's retirement. But I would argue that Hakeem was so dominant in those two playoff runs (especially that second one when they were a low 6 seed or whatever) that they would have taken the Bulls.
The way Hakeem played that second time felt like that Kobe series against the Spurs except in every single round of the playoffs, in which they were underdogs all the way. The way he put that team on his back for that stretch of playoff basketball may have been the most dominant I have ever seen from a player for an entire championship run. |
Exactly. This is why I laugh when folks say "Jordan woulda did this or that". Ok....the way Dream was playing those two postseasons, AGAINST GREAT CENTERS, I'm not exactly worried about Jordan coming back or Bill Cartwright holding him.
In 94 Dream avg 29/11/4/4/1.7 on 52%. In 95 he avg 33/10/4.5/2.8/1.2 on 53%. He was arguably more productive in those two postseasons than Jordan was any year they won the title, and a Bulls matchup would have been the easiest for him on either side of the ball. So unless Jordan can somehow make Dream play worse.... |
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Theseus
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| Posted: Sun Aug 30, 2015 11:08 pm Post subject: |
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Hakeem's Rockets were the first team to win the championship while having every team they beat win over 50 games in the regular season.
It has probably been matched since, but I saw the final game of the Rockets vs Magic series on espn classic over the weekend and they dropped that statistic. |
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Drifts
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| Posted: Sun Aug 30, 2015 11:20 pm Post subject: |
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| SuperboyReformed wrote: | | Drifts wrote: | | Shlumpledink wrote: | | Drifts wrote: | | Dreamshake wrote: | | Drifts wrote: | | Dreamshake wrote: | | Drifts wrote: | | Telleris wrote: |
If they'd met 5 nba finals in a row (91-95), Houston would have won 3-2 or even 4-1, if they'd met 96-98, Chicago would have won 3-0. |
there was a reason Houston couldn't make it to the finals before Jordan retired, it was that they weren't really that good... and if Jordan had not retired, I don't think the 94-95 Houston can beat Jordan and Scottie (even without Horace) |
You have to remember Horry wasn't drafted until 93 (and he didn't turn the corner until the failed Elliott trade in 94 because he didn't wanna shoot) and Cassell wasn't drafted until 94. They were very important pieces for a team that only had one star player. I have no doubts the 94 and 95 teams would have beaten the Bulls with Jordan. It's laughable to suggest that they would lose to the Bulls without Jordan though.
As far as the C's Jordan faced, he faced plenty of great C's getting to the Finals. Ewing, Shaq and Mourning. Smits and Laimbeer as well (not great but good). |
I give Hakeem a good chance of beating Jordan and Pippen, but in the end, Bulls win. Won't be easy though, Hakeem was a monster those 2 years. But that would make Jordan just want to beat him more, to show he was even better.
Sad that Jordan's gambling problem got in the way of that dream matchup. |
Unless Jordan could grow and play C then I'm not sure how him "wanting to beat him more" would help the Bulls contain Hakeem. I'm sure Jordan "really really" wanted to win every year he played. |
I don't see a problem with Hakeem being contained because Houston will not be able to contain Jordan and Pippen either. Then there was Kukoc too.
anyway, I don't see why Jordan would need to grow more and/or play the C to beat Centers... he's made a career beating bigger men than him. I don't have to list all the big men he beat his entire career, I know. |
Except Kukoc was only around for the second 3peat.
Pippen and Jordan would be tough to contain, no one is saying it would be easy. People are just saying that Houston matched up with the first 3peat Bulls.
I would argue, and some others already have argued. That the Rockets matched up better with the Bulls than the Knicks (who took chicago to 7 games) matched up.
Vernon Maxwell was a very good player when he had his head on straight, which he often didn't, but he always seemed focused against Jordan.
Robert Horry was a rare small forward (he played that when he was young) that could move his feet really well (again, we're talking early robert horry) but also had the length to keep up with quicker guys. He was there for the third year of the threepeat, and for both championship runs with the rockets.
Houston also had the shooters to burn the Bulls for doubling and tripling Hakeem, which they would have to do to keep Hakeem from dropping 40 on them from the inside. Hakeem was a willing passer out of the double team too, and pretty adept at it.
I would have loved to see this matchup. I would also love to see old game footage between houston and chicago. I also believe Jordan believes they would have beaten anybody, but I wonder what his thoughts were about playing against Hakeem, and the Rockets during that era |
Toni Kukoc was around the year after Jordan retired, which was the year Houston got their first ring. I am not saying Houston was easy pickings. All I'm saying is that when the dust settles, the Bulls beat the Rockets. |
Drifts, it seems to me you are insisting that the Bulls will just beat the Rockets. However, you are not addressing the specific points being made about the proven ability of the early Houston teams to beat and give Jordan/Bulls trouble. Shumpledink seems to be making a good case. |
he made a good case but I still see the Bulls beating the Rockets. as I've said, the Rockets were not a terrible team, of course the team had good players... how else could they have made it to the finals if they weren't a good team? lol but still, I see the Bulls beating them in a finals showdown.
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Drifts
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| Posted: Sun Aug 30, 2015 11:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Dreamshake wrote: | | 1hu2ren3dui4 wrote: | I felt like the rockets were always thought of champions only because of Jordan's retirement. But I would argue that Hakeem was so dominant in those two playoff runs (especially that second one when they were a low 6 seed or whatever) that they would have taken the Bulls.
The way Hakeem played that second time felt like that Kobe series against the Spurs except in every single round of the playoffs, in which they were underdogs all the way. The way he put that team on his back for that stretch of playoff basketball may have been the most dominant I have ever seen from a player for an entire championship run. |
Exactly. This is why I laugh when folks say "Jordan woulda did this or that". Ok....the way Dream was playing those two postseasons, AGAINST GREAT CENTERS, I'm not exactly worried about Jordan coming back or Bill Cartwright holding him.
In 94 Dream avg 29/11/4/4/1.7 on 52%. In 95 he avg 33/10/4.5/2.8/1.2 on 53%. He was arguably more productive in those two postseasons than Jordan was any year they won the title, and a Bulls matchup would have been the easiest for him on either side of the ball. So unless Jordan can somehow make Dream play worse.... |
sad Hakeem could only play dominant basketball when Jordan wasn't around. that always felt odd... lol
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"Now, if life is coffee, then the jobs, money & position in society are the cups. They are just tools to hold & contain life, but the quality of life doesn't change. Sometimes, by concentrating only on the cup, we fail to enjoy the coffee in it." |
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non-player zealot
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| Posted: Sun Aug 30, 2015 11:28 pm Post subject: |
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Just checking in. What did I miss? Did I miss Dreamshake arguing that the Rockets would've beaten Michael Jordan?
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Telleris
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| Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2015 1:24 am Post subject: |
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| Drifts wrote: | | Dreamshake wrote: | | 1hu2ren3dui4 wrote: | I felt like the rockets were always thought of champions only because of Jordan's retirement. But I would argue that Hakeem was so dominant in those two playoff runs (especially that second one when they were a low 6 seed or whatever) that they would have taken the Bulls.
The way Hakeem played that second time felt like that Kobe series against the Spurs except in every single round of the playoffs, in which they were underdogs all the way. The way he put that team on his back for that stretch of playoff basketball may have been the most dominant I have ever seen from a player for an entire championship run. |
Exactly. This is why I laugh when folks say "Jordan woulda did this or that". Ok....the way Dream was playing those two postseasons, AGAINST GREAT CENTERS, I'm not exactly worried about Jordan coming back or Bill Cartwright holding him.
In 94 Dream avg 29/11/4/4/1.7 on 52%. In 95 he avg 33/10/4.5/2.8/1.2 on 53%. He was arguably more productive in those two postseasons than Jordan was any year they won the title, and a Bulls matchup would have been the easiest for him on either side of the ball. So unless Jordan can somehow make Dream play worse.... |
sad Hakeem could only play dominant basketball when Jordan wasn't around. that always felt odd... lol |
Didn't really have anything to do with Jordan, he just had (bleep) supporting casts after his '86 team fell apart, until the early 90's (he put up 37 and 17 in a playoff series, highest playoff per in history, and lost 3-1, what more can you do?). 96-97 was the last year before his body gave in, but he wasn't the same that year as the years prior either.
Houston winning the west without Jordan was just coincidence, in 94, it was just that Seattle got themselves flipped in the first round (Houston were something like 6-18 against them over 5 years including 2 playoff series losses), Phoenix meets Seattle in '93 2nd round and Jordan Hakeem would have happened.
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SuperboyReformed
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| Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2015 6:36 am Post subject: |
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| Telleris wrote: | | Drifts wrote: | | Dreamshake wrote: | | 1hu2ren3dui4 wrote: | I felt like the rockets were always thought of champions only because of Jordan's retirement. But I would argue that Hakeem was so dominant in those two playoff runs (especially that second one when they were a low 6 seed or whatever) that they would have taken the Bulls.
The way Hakeem played that second time felt like that Kobe series against the Spurs except in every single round of the playoffs, in which they were underdogs all the way. The way he put that team on his back for that stretch of playoff basketball may have been the most dominant I have ever seen from a player for an entire championship run. |
Exactly. This is why I laugh when folks say "Jordan woulda did this or that". Ok....the way Dream was playing those two postseasons, AGAINST GREAT CENTERS, I'm not exactly worried about Jordan coming back or Bill Cartwright holding him.
In 94 Dream avg 29/11/4/4/1.7 on 52%. In 95 he avg 33/10/4.5/2.8/1.2 on 53%. He was arguably more productive in those two postseasons than Jordan was any year they won the title, and a Bulls matchup would have been the easiest for him on either side of the ball. So unless Jordan can somehow make Dream play worse.... |
sad Hakeem could only play dominant basketball when Jordan wasn't around. that always felt odd... lol |
Didn't really have anything to do with Jordan, he just had (bleep) supporting casts after his '86 team fell apart, until the early 90's (he put up 37 and 17 in a playoff series, highest playoff per in history, and lost 3-1, what more can you do?). 96-97 was the last year before his body gave in, but he wasn't the same that year as the years prior either.
Houston winning the west without Jordan was just coincidence, in 94, it was just that Seattle got themselves flipped in the first round (Houston were something like 6-18 against them over 5 years including 2 playoff series losses), Phoenix meets Seattle in '93 2nd round and Jordan Hakeem would have happened. |
What series is this? MJ had 37ppg and 17 what? assists/rebounds? i don't remember this at all. |
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Telleris
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| Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2015 7:34 am Post subject: |
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| activeverb wrote: | | Shlumpledink wrote: | | I also believe Jordan believes they would have beaten anybody, but I wonder what his thoughts were about playing against Hakeem, and the Rockets during that era |
I think Jordan has pretty much addressed this. He had huge respect for Hakeem. And during the first threepeat, the Rockets dominated them in the regular season. But Jordan's opinion was the playoffs are different than the regular season, and he thinks the Rockets would have no rings if he didn't go to play baseball. |
This is what Jordan said in '93
"We have no answer for the big guy. It's a good thing they won't ever make it to the (NBA) Finals, because I don't think we could beat them."
| SuperboyReformed wrote: |
What series is this? MJ had 37ppg and 17 what? assists/rebounds? i don't remember this at all. |
Hakeem did in 88
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SuperboyReformed
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| Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2015 6:21 am Post subject: |
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| Telleris wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | | Shlumpledink wrote: | | I also believe Jordan believes they would have beaten anybody, but I wonder what his thoughts were about playing against Hakeem, and the Rockets during that era |
I think Jordan has pretty much addressed this. He had huge respect for Hakeem. And during the first threepeat, the Rockets dominated them in the regular season. But Jordan's opinion was the playoffs are different than the regular season, and he thinks the Rockets would have no rings if he didn't go to play baseball. |
This is what Jordan said in '93
"We have no answer for the big guy. It's a good thing they won't ever make it to the (NBA) Finals, because I don't think we could beat them."
| SuperboyReformed wrote: |
What series is this? MJ had 37ppg and 17 what? assists/rebounds? i don't remember this at all. |
Hakeem did in 88 |
I've never heard that quote. wow. |
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