They just took that Pistons team way too lightly. Like they were the nets or sixers. By the time they figured it out they were in Detroit for 3 straight down 0-2.
The one in Boston will always sting, but Kobe has 8 if he and shaq could have learned to play nice.
They were tied with Detroit 1-1 before going on the road. Lakers won game 2 in OT which probably made them take the Pistons even more lightly. But you are right that they got behind in that series and were stuck in Detroit. It's disgusting that they couldn't steal even 1 game on the road and bring it back to LA.
I'm part of a minority that thinks Shaq was traded at just the right time. Shaq was in decline and only had one superstar level season left in (2004-05). And that was even with the motivation of trying to stick it to LA.
People might say well, if D-Wade can win with a declining Shaq, why can't Kobe? I'd say it would have been much more difficult for us because we had to play through the tough West and both Wade was still on a rookie contract at the time, which made it easier for Miami to put a cast around them that compensate for Shaq's decline. And even then, the team fell apart in a heap. Swept out of the first round a year after winning their ring and 17 wins the season after that. I'm thrilled with how things turned out.
Miami still had to play the WC champs so that's irrelevant. Kobe was playing at his highest form in 05-07. Had Shaq been there, there was still a huge title opportunity. Those were the worst team success seasons of Kobe's career until recently.
They could have easily have had one more in those 05-07 seasons.
He was still close to a 20/10 player in 05-06, so it's really more like two more seasons of All-Star production. Was a 17/7 guy in 06-07 but missed half the season due to injury.
They could have made another run in 04-05 and a weaker one in 05-06, especially given that that was Kobe's best year. Don't know if it would have been enough to get past the Spurs, Mavericks, and Pistons though.
Shaq had something to prove when he went to Miami and was actually trying to get himself into shape. I'm not convinced he would have had the same motivation in LA. After winning his first title as a Laker he started taking the regular season a lot less seriously.
I'm part of a minority that thinks Shaq was traded at just the right time. Shaq was in decline and only had one superstar level season left in (2004-05). And that was even with the motivation of trying to stick it to LA.
People might say well, if D-Wade can win with a declining Shaq, why can't Kobe? I'd say it would have been much more difficult for us because we had to play through the tough West and both Wade was still on a rookie contract at the time, which made it easier for Miami to put a cast around them that compensate for Shaq's decline. And even then, the team fell apart in a heap. Swept out of the first round a year after winning their ring and 17 wins the season after that. I'm thrilled with how things turned out.
Miami still had to play the WC champs so that's irrelevant. Kobe was playing at his highest form in 05-07. Had Shaq been there, there was still a huge title opportunity. Those were the worst team success seasons of Kobe's career until recently.
They could have easily have had one more in those 05-07 seasons.
Kobe played at an incredible level in 2003 with a younger Shaq and the team still won only 50 games in the West. So I don't see why a Shaq that's 2-4 years older would have won with Kobe again in 2005 or later.
And Dallas was not really the best team in the conference in 06 in my opinion. It was the Spurs. San Antonio won 63 games that year and barely lost to the Mavs, who matched up well with them. I think Miami was fortunate to play Dallas instead of San Antonio.
The Spurs were champions in 2005 and 2007 so I don't think the Lakers could have easily beaten them in those seasons. They barely beat San Antonio in 2004 with a lot of help from Malone. In 2003 San Antonio beat LA with a younger Shaq, and Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili were not in their prime yet. Those two were better players in 2004, 2005 and in future years.
I'll take prime Gasol, Odom, and Bynum in 2008-2012 instead of rolling the dice with an aging Shaq in 2005.
I'm a little surprised that people still make a big deal out of Shaq leaving when he did. I think trading Kwame for Gasol a few years later had a much bigger impact than Shaq ever would have had by staying, unless Shaq staying caused Kobe to leave for the Clippers.
Joined: 24 Dec 2007 Posts: 35813 Location: Santa Clarita, CA (Hell) ->>>>>Ithaca, NY -≥≥≥≥≥Berkeley, CA
Posted: Sun Aug 30, 2015 5:26 am Post subject:
Steve007 wrote:
CandyCanes wrote:
2019 wrote:
KBH wrote:
I'm part of a minority that thinks Shaq was traded at just the right time. Shaq was in decline and only had one superstar level season left in (2004-05). And that was even with the motivation of trying to stick it to LA.
People might say well, if D-Wade can win with a declining Shaq, why can't Kobe? I'd say it would have been much more difficult for us because we had to play through the tough West and both Wade was still on a rookie contract at the time, which made it easier for Miami to put a cast around them that compensate for Shaq's decline. And even then, the team fell apart in a heap. Swept out of the first round a year after winning their ring and 17 wins the season after that. I'm thrilled with how things turned out.
Miami still had to play the WC champs so that's irrelevant. Kobe was playing at his highest form in 05-07. Had Shaq been there, there was still a huge title opportunity. Those were the worst team success seasons of Kobe's career until recently.
They could have easily have had one more in those 05-07 seasons.
He was still close to a 20/10 player in 05-06, so it's really more like two more seasons of All-Star production. Was a 17/7 guy in 06-07 but missed half the season due to injury.
They could have made another run in 04-05 and a weaker one in 05-06, especially given that that was Kobe's best year. Don't know if it would have been enough to get past the Spurs, Mavericks, and Pistons though.
Shaq had something to prove when he went to Miami and was actually trying to get himself into shape. I'm not convinced he would have had the same motivation in LA. After winning his first title as a Laker he started taking the regular season a lot less seriously.
Also, in 05-06, he averaged 13.7 and 10.2 against the Mavericks in the finals. He may really already have been done at that point. _________________ Damian Lillard shatters Dwight Coward's championship dreams:
Joined: 07 Jul 2006 Posts: 8287 Location: Oxnard, Ca.
Posted: Sun Aug 30, 2015 7:02 am Post subject:
wolfpaclaker wrote:
While they did, I don't really think they could have won more than what they wound up winning so long as the other things remained constant.
You needed them to have Phil, then you needed them to have quality teammates once Shaq began his decline. With Lakers not really spending back then like they do now or in the 2008-2011 era, the Lakers IMO would have been a contender for many years, but ultimately fallen short. At best, they'd have won 1 more ring ala Wade/Shaq in Miami (And look at Miami's supporting cast).
In the end, they were truly dominant. Things could have been better off the court. But even if they loved each other when they were teammates, I don't se them doing better than they did results wise in terms of winning 3 rings, 4 NBA Finals etc.
Now the one thing that could have dramatically changed things is Shaq having a different work ethic later in his career, so he could prolong his "prime" dominant years. If Shaq could have had 2-3 more years like that, Lakers definitely could have had more rings with him and KB in that short time frame. To me ultimately it was Shaq's lack of worth ethic and that era Dr Buss unwilling to spend like he did post-Shaq that did held them back from winning more than 3.
Agree! _________________ .....
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ALTHOUGH HE STANDS 6 FEET 2 INCHES, JIM BUSS ATTENDED JOCKEY SCHOOL WHEN HE WAS 20.
Joined: 29 Aug 2004 Posts: 11197 Location: The Other Perspective
Posted: Sun Aug 30, 2015 7:20 am Post subject:
wolfpaclaker wrote:
While they did, I don't really think they could have won more than what they wound up winning so long as the other things remained constant.
You needed them to have Phil, then you needed them to have quality teammates once Shaq began his decline. With Lakers not really spending back then like they do now or in the 2008-2011 era, the Lakers IMO would have been a contender for many years, but ultimately fallen short. At best, they'd have won 1 more ring ala Wade/Shaq in Miami (And look at Miami's supporting cast).
In the end, they were truly dominant. Things could have been better off the court. But even if they loved each other when they were teammates, I don't se them doing better than they did results wise in terms of winning 3 rings, 4 NBA Finals etc.
Now the one thing that could have dramatically changed things is Shaq having a different work ethic later in his career, so he could prolong his "prime" dominant years. If Shaq could have had 2-3 more years like that, Lakers definitely could have had more rings with him and KB in that short time frame. To me ultimately it was Shaq's lack of worth ethic and that era Dr Buss unwilling to spend like he did post-Shaq that did held them back from winning more than 3.
Runway8 wrote:
This is nice in terms of their personal lives and feelings. But in terms of basketball, they shouldn't regret what happened after 2004. Shaq was already 32 and going down. He squeezed one more title with Wade, but you can clearly see he was carried by Wade, and furthermore, Wade had a free ALL YOU CAN SHOOT free throws buffet in the 06 playoffs.
I just don't see the Lakers getting anymore titles even if they wised up and "appreciated" each other from that point. Appreciating each other doesn't guarantee Shaq would have worked any harder on taking care of his body. Even in their primes, being on top of their games, they almost didn't come out of the west in 2 of their 3 titles. The game 7 miracle comeback in 2000 against the Blazers, and the Vlade tip out to Horry in 2002.. the Lakers could have easily lost these series, and this awesome duo would only have 1 title to show for their time together. So I absolutely do not buy that they could ave won many more titles.
If they kept Shaq around after 2004, history would have changed. We wouldn't be good enough, and we wouldn't have been bad enough for the rebuild. No caron, which means no Kwame, which means no Pau, and obviously no Odom. No Bynum cause we wouldn't have been bad enough for the 10 pick. Kobe may be stuck on 3 titles right now if they didn't trade Shaq.
Good points. _________________ "Chick lived and breathed Lakers basketball…but he was also fair and objective and called every game the way it was played."
-from Chick: His Unpublished Memoirs and the Memories of Those Who Knew Him
They just took that Pistons team way too lightly. Like they were the nets or sixers. By the time they figured it out they were in Detroit for 3 straight down 0-2.
The one in Boston will always sting, but Kobe has 8 if he and shaq could have learned to play nice.
They were tied with Detroit 1-1 before going on the road. Lakers won game 2 in OT which probably made them take the Pistons even more lightly. But you are right that they got behind in that series and were stuck in Detroit. It's disgusting that they couldn't steal even 1 game on the road and bring it back to LA.
That was one of the worst officiated series I've seen in my life. Every ticky tack contact was called on the Lakers defenders, whereas the Pistons were given free reign to just slap and hack every time Kobe drove the lane. I seriously believed the league didn't want the Lakers to be the champion that year given Kobe's rape allegation in Colorado. _________________ Ringo "You retired too?"
Doc "Not me, I'm in my prime."
They just took that Pistons team way too lightly. Like they were the nets or sixers. By the time they figured it out they were in Detroit for 3 straight down 0-2.
The one in Boston will always sting, but Kobe has 8 if he and shaq could have learned to play nice.
They were tied with Detroit 1-1 before going on the road. Lakers won game 2 in OT which probably made them take the Pistons even more lightly. But you are right that they got behind in that series and were stuck in Detroit. It's disgusting that they couldn't steal even 1 game on the road and bring it back to LA.
That was one of the worst officiated series I've seen in my life. Every ticky tack contact was called on the Lakers defenders, whereas the Pistons were given free reign to just slap and hack every time Kobe drove the lane. I seriously believed the league didn't want the Lakers to be the champion that year given Kobe's assault allegation in Colorado.
Larry Brown was also coaching Team USA that summer... they needed a Championship USA coach entering to follow up Rudy T's team. Preaching 'team' philosophy at a time where it was dominated by individual performers.
Lol, ironically the "championship coach" brought home a bronze medal for what was probably the worse showing for an (NBA) USA Men's Basketball Team in Olympic history.
No Pau Gasol, but we could still have a Marc Gasol and things could go a bit differently.
Would the team still have drafted Marc Gasol? The team wouldn't have had the same picks and there is always the possibility the pick would have been traded in a different scenario.
I actually don't think Shaq and Kobe left any championships on the table. They always say that's it's better to trade a player 1 year too early than 1 year too late. Well, in Shaq's case, the Lakers traded him 1 year early, but I think it was all for the better. I didn't necessarily like the loot they got for him, but Odom did help with the next two championships and some of the pieces were used to get Pau Gasol as well. The one championship they did leave on the table was vs the Pistons...but that was sort of bad luck because Karl Malone got hurt and didn't play in the finals.
Fun listen overall. Nothing really new, but it was a good podcast nonetheless. It was cool to see(or rather, hear) them being friendly and amicable towards one another.
Here's a recap:
Quote:
-The podcast opens up with old sound bites of quotes from Shaq and Kobe, one most notably being of Shaq saying that he wanted to be traded. Shaq half-jokingly says he doesn't remember saying any of it.
-Shaq says he doesn't really have remorse, but says that he should have handled the situation better and should have been more "politically correct". He says out of every 10 things he said, he wishes he could take 6 of them back.
-Shaq says that there wasn't "full blown" hatred between he and Kobe. He says there were disagreements, but they were mostly "in the workplace". The two were, and still are, cordial when meeting each other's families and whatnot.
-Kobe enters the podcast at the 10:40 mark.
-Shaq says that they won 3/4 and that not much was done wrong. He wondered why Phil Jackson never intervened between the two.
-Kobe says he had fun during those years, and he says that what made the disagreements special was that they confronted each other head on and never went behind each other's backs to do so. Kobe says that the integrity of the team was never in question.
-Before Game 7 of the 2002 WCF, Shaq called Kobe at 3 AM to ask him if he was ready. Kobe responds "Yeah, I'm ready. You ready to hit those free throws?". Shaq and Kobe took turns dismantling their opponents in different series'.
-Shaq says that the most fun they had together was during the 2000 Finals, and brings up Kobe taking over in Game 4 of that series after Shaq fouled out. Shaq said that moment was when he knew that Kobe was the best player in the game.
-Co-host says that the two had a chance to accomplish more than what they had accomplished, and both agreed. Shaq says that the "business" aspect kicked in. Dr. Buss laid out guidelines for Shaq in terms of what the Lakers had planned and said that if he didn't accept, the Lakers would have to trade him. Shaq says he respected Dr. Buss, as well as the Buss family, for the way they did business. Kobe agrees.
-Kobe brings up a theoretical analogy of Michael Jordan and Wilt Chamberlain playing together, with Wilt in his prime and Michael developing, and wondered how many years it would take until Jordan wanted to show what he was capable of. Kobe says that he and Shaq were one of a kind because they were both alpha-males.
-Kobe says that Shaq taught him how to lead. He says that Shaq was outgoing and made sure his teammates were comfortable in-game.
-Shaq says Kobe has no fear, bringing up the Utah game where Kobe air-balled 3s down the stretch. He said that anyone else would be afraid of taking those shots.
-Shaq says that he would like to take back a lot of things, one being him saying that he wanted to be trade. He says that a lot of things were said in the heat of the moment. Shaq says that it would take decades for their 15-1 postseason record in the 2001 playoffs to be broken.
-Kobe says that as he's aged, he has regrets over some of the things that he's said when he was younger. He wishes that he hadn't gone to the press in order to vent frustrations and would have wanted to keep their disagreements in house. Kobe says that he had a great time playing with Shaq and appreciates their time together to this day and that he learned a lot from it.
-Shaq asks Kobe if he saw anyone that could be "the next Kobe" in today's league. Kobe says that it's a different league and that there aren't too many players that have the same type of "aggressive" mentality as many of the "stone cold assassins" of the past like him, as well as players that he's played against, like Jordan, Stockton, Payton, etc. He states that everyone is "buddy-buddy" with each other.
-Kobe agrees with Shaq's notion of the league being much softer now than in the past. He says that the Olympics nowadays have tougher players. Kobe questions what had happened to 7 footers.
-Co-host brings up Phil Jackson and whether he played favorites. Both agree that he never really chose one side over the other.
-Co-host asks which one of the two would make a better executive. Kobe responds, "Don't look at me, I'd fire someone in a second!".
-The co-host asks Kobe what he's going to do after he retires, and Kobe responds that he wants to continue to build his company and businesses, with video editing, producing, and storytelling, similarly to his Muse documentary.
-Both agree that the 2001 team was the best team they had ever played in.
-The co-host asks Shaq if he was angry when he saw Kobe in 2009 and 2010. Shaq jokingly responds that he was "pissed", bringing up Kobe's famous "I got one more than Shaq" line afterwards. Kobe says that he was happy for Shaq in 2006 because it gave him the fuel and the drive to win more titles.
-Podcast concludes with Shaq saying that he and Kobe were the most dominant duo ever, and he wishes Kobe the best of luck this upcoming season.
Yeah, it's a different league right now.
LeBron has a great circle.
Curry is everybody's favorite.
Durant is expressive inside but he tries to be friendly.
They just took that Pistons team way too lightly. Like they were the nets or sixers. By the time they figured it out they were in Detroit for 3 straight down 0-2.
The one in Boston will always sting, but Kobe has 8 if he and shaq could have learned to play nice.
They were tied with Detroit 1-1 before going on the road. Lakers won game 2 in OT which probably made them take the Pistons even more lightly. But you are right that they got behind in that series and were stuck in Detroit. It's disgusting that they couldn't steal even 1 game on the road and bring it back to LA.
They scored under 70 points in one game, only time in the LA era of the franchise a Laker team did that, RS or playoffs. _________________ GOAT MAGIC REEL SEDALE TRIBUTE EDDIE DONX!
Not really. Grown men acting like children ruined what would have been the greatest duo in SPORTS history. _________________ Because we're better than you!
Joined: 07 Jul 2006 Posts: 8287 Location: Oxnard, Ca.
Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2015 11:18 pm Post subject:
I'm certainly glad that Shaq became a Laker, three in a row is a huge accomplishment no matter what circumstances prevailed. Take the good with the not so good and move on. Shaq and Kobe won together and also proved they could win apart, that made them both all time great players and all time great Lakers, end of story. Thanks Shaq and Kobe for the Lakers championships. _________________ .....
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ALTHOUGH HE STANDS 6 FEET 2 INCHES, JIM BUSS ATTENDED JOCKEY SCHOOL WHEN HE WAS 20.
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