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activeverb
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Joined: 17 Jun 2006
Posts: 37470
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 Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 1:17 pm Post subject: |
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| 70sdude wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | | 70sdude wrote: | | Never said BB and Lucas were equivalent; no player is equivalent to another. I said they're in the Hall because of the teams they were on and the impact they made on those teams (including college) and that neither would be in if they'd served, for example, on the the Hawks or Pistons of the time. Winning big draws attention to complementary players deservedly. |
Huh? Jerry Lucas didn't get in the Hall because he won a ring at the end of his career as a supporting player for the Knicks. He's in the Hall because he was a star for many years on Cincinnati, which pretty much was the Hawks of the time.
I mean, do you understand Jerry Lucas is the Hall because of his 20-20 years as a first-team all-NBA player for Cincinatti teams that were going 39-43 some years? |
Let's get this straight, if you have the IQ for it.
I called Sanders a great player and worthy of the Hall; much of that worthiness is because he was a member of great teams. You call the process mysterious and corrupt and a joke out of one side of your mouth, something that the public doesn't care about, but you jump in again defend the membership of Jerry Lucas with the other side of your mouth. That's entertaining. You have no clue my friend. |
no, dude. You listed Tom Sanders as a Hall of Fame player, because you had no idea he wasn't in the Hall of Fame as a player. that's just one of the many many many errors in your posts.and to use your own term, you make yourself look silly by going into all these contortions to justify your errors instead of simply admitting you were mistaken |
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activeverb
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Joined: 17 Jun 2006
Posts: 37470
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| Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 9:35 pm Post subject: |
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| carlosLisboa wrote: | | activeverb wrote: |
In contrast, the Baseball Hall is so open, and dedicated to players fans know. The Baseball Hall is the gold standard for Halls of Fame; the Basketball Hall is something of a joke. |
What do you mean? That the fact very few countries except the US care about baseball makes it better than basketball's?
The problem about the NBA basketball HoF is hardly the foreign players.
It is more the case of NBA old acquaintances lobbying and adding friends in, undeservedly.
There are many basketball fans around there. I (as well as hundreds of millions of europeans) cannot see why people bother to watch baseball at all. And it is not a matter of ignorance. I have studied the rules and tried to watch a game and it is just boring. American football is quite fun, and worth watching, and some people actually see the Superbowl. Ice hockey is also very nice, but roller skate hockey is more popular.
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I meant the Baseball Hall of Fame is the gold standard in the way in which the voting system operates. It's completely transparent. The voting patterns are pretty consistent. Everything is above board.
The Basketball Hall of Fame is a mysterious process where small groups determine the entrants; the voting is not made transparent. There is lot of cronyism and log-rolling. The choices often seem arbitrary.
The fact that the Hall is so eclectic makes it seem more arbitrary. When some odd choices get in, some people hypothesis it's because of some combination of their professional and college resumes, but no one really knows.
In terms of the sports any specific person likes and dislikes, to each his own.
| carlosLisboa wrote: |
I am sure Grant Hill will be there one day. |
He probably will. He had a great college career and a good enough pro career to make it, even with all the injuries. I'd say the locks are:
Kobe
Shaq
Duncan
Dirk
Iverson
Garnett
Nash
Pierce
Allen
Parker
Lebron
Wade
Paul
Dwight
Bosh
Durant
Kidd
Pau and Carmelo are likely. |
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non-player zealot
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Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Posts: 21365
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| Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 11:02 pm Post subject: |
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| activeverb wrote: | | Wilkes52 wrote: | Freaking finally, Spencer Haywood gets into the hall. Dang right.
A lot of folks don't know who he was. He was a great player in college and in the ABA and NBA, and he was an Olympic champion for the USA in a Summer when Kareem Abdul-Jabbar tried to lead a boycott of the team. But Haywood was more than that too.
He should be famous - not infamous - for having forced the NBA to court with his challenge of the NBA's rule on draft rights. Haywood became the pivotal figure in establishing what came to be known as the "hardship case" ruling, later reaffirmed by the Supreme Court. I think many NBA owners held this change against the player for many years.
What I remember most about Spencer Haywood's game was his unusually quick jump, which helped him rebound among giants, and how well this quickness set up his high arching turnaround jumper, after a dribble dribble across the key. A slightly smaller Elvin Hayes. |
Spencer had a great, but relatively short career. He started to decline in his mid-20s and got bounced out of the league because of cocaine problems. He got kicked off the Lakers in the middle of the finals because of his drug problems. |
He apparently fell out cold during a practice session. Then there's his story about considering how he could sever Westhead's brake lines after being released. He didn't do us any favors, that's for sure. Shows how Scarfaceish the coke scene was in LA in 1980. Lotta yayo around. Dantley was wasted on that guy. Adrian didn't suit the roster any longer, but he still had enough value to make that trade one of the biggest stinkers in franchise history. It's annoying to think that he later landed Mark Aguirre, a first overall pick, who eventually hurt the Lakers off the bench with the Pistons. Lakers themselves could've used his offense coming off the bench around 1989.
The Hall Of Fame is somewhat farcical to me as well, but then again, some of the decisions for major awards are batty and contrived, full of broadly accepted conditions of the kind which granted Doc Rivers COY with 41 wins over Phil as a first year Lakers coach that instantly succeeded to a level Harris never did with a more talented roster. The HOF is far less important to me, but even with that said, that is a lean crop. There's a chance for middling stars to get inducted as long as there aren't any superstars ahead of them that year. All they have to do is wait. Reggie, Dumars, Mutombo?, Dantley, Wilkes sorry to say. Mutombo had to go in after Eaton went in for the same major reason. Other than that, what the hell has Mutombo ever stood out for? Shirley it wasn't for winning. Recent classes have been less than stellar. Fans who complained that Jordan was too arrogant in his speech were griping about the wrong thing.
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Cutheon
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Joined: 10 Jul 2009
Posts: 12161
Location: Bay Area
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| Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 5:06 am Post subject: |
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| activeverb wrote: | | carlosLisboa wrote: | | activeverb wrote: |
In contrast, the Baseball Hall is so open, and dedicated to players fans know. The Baseball Hall is the gold standard for Halls of Fame; the Basketball Hall is something of a joke. |
What do you mean? That the fact very few countries except the US care about baseball makes it better than basketball's?
The problem about the NBA basketball HoF is hardly the foreign players.
It is more the case of NBA old acquaintances lobbying and adding friends in, undeservedly.
There are many basketball fans around there. I (as well as hundreds of millions of europeans) cannot see why people bother to watch baseball at all. And it is not a matter of ignorance. I have studied the rules and tried to watch a game and it is just boring. American football is quite fun, and worth watching, and some people actually see the Superbowl. Ice hockey is also very nice, but roller skate hockey is more popular.
. |
I meant the Baseball Hall of Fame is the gold standard in the way in which the voting system operates. It's completely transparent. The voting patterns are pretty consistent. Everything is above board.
The Basketball Hall of Fame is a mysterious process where small groups determine the entrants; the voting is not made transparent. There is lot of cronyism and log-rolling. The choices often seem arbitrary.
The fact that the Hall is so eclectic makes it seem more arbitrary. When some odd choices get in, some people hypothesis it's because of some combination of their professional and college resumes, but no one really knows.
In terms of the sports any specific person likes and dislikes, to each his own.
| carlosLisboa wrote: |
I am sure Grant Hill will be there one day. |
He probably will. He had a great college career and a good enough pro career to make it, even with all the injuries. I'd say the locks are:
Kobe
Shaq
Duncan
Dirk
Iverson
Garnett
Nash
Pierce
Allen
Parker
Lebron
Wade
Paul
Dwight
Bosh
Durant
Kidd
Pau and Carmelo are likely. |
I think Pau is more than likely: his international career is almost as impressive as his NBA career. Unless, of course, by "lock" you meant "first-ballot." In that case, I agree with your list |
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activeverb
Retired Number
Joined: 17 Jun 2006
Posts: 37470
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| Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 3:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Cutheon wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | | carlosLisboa wrote: | | activeverb wrote: |
In contrast, the Baseball Hall is so open, and dedicated to players fans know. The Baseball Hall is the gold standard for Halls of Fame; the Basketball Hall is something of a joke. |
What do you mean? That the fact very few countries except the US care about baseball makes it better than basketball's?
The problem about the NBA basketball HoF is hardly the foreign players.
It is more the case of NBA old acquaintances lobbying and adding friends in, undeservedly.
There are many basketball fans around there. I (as well as hundreds of millions of europeans) cannot see why people bother to watch baseball at all. And it is not a matter of ignorance. I have studied the rules and tried to watch a game and it is just boring. American football is quite fun, and worth watching, and some people actually see the Superbowl. Ice hockey is also very nice, but roller skate hockey is more popular.
. |
I meant the Baseball Hall of Fame is the gold standard in the way in which the voting system operates. It's completely transparent. The voting patterns are pretty consistent. Everything is above board.
The Basketball Hall of Fame is a mysterious process where small groups determine the entrants; the voting is not made transparent. There is lot of cronyism and log-rolling. The choices often seem arbitrary.
The fact that the Hall is so eclectic makes it seem more arbitrary. When some odd choices get in, some people hypothesis it's because of some combination of their professional and college resumes, but no one really knows.
In terms of the sports any specific person likes and dislikes, to each his own.
| carlosLisboa wrote: |
I am sure Grant Hill will be there one day. |
He probably will. He had a great college career and a good enough pro career to make it, even with all the injuries. I'd say the locks are:
Kobe
Shaq
Duncan
Dirk
Iverson
Garnett
Nash
Pierce
Allen
Parker
Lebron
Wade
Paul
Dwight
Bosh
Durant
Kidd
Pau and Carmelo are likely. |
I think Pau is more than likely: his international career is almost as impressive as his NBA career. Unless, of course, by "lock" you meant "first-ballot." In that case, I agree with your list |
You nailed it -- I was considering a lock to be a first ballot. I think Pau will get in too. |
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doughboy90650
Franchise Player
Joined: 20 Apr 2006
Posts: 15294
Location: Southern California
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| Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 11:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Congrats to the inductees. Hall is getting kinda watered down though. Should be the best of the best of the best. If you say their name and have to think about if they should be in the Hall, then they're not a Hall of Famer. |
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activeverb
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Joined: 17 Jun 2006
Posts: 37470
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| Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 10:43 am Post subject: |
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| non-player zealot wrote: | | There's a chance for middling stars to get inducted as long as there aren't any superstars ahead of them that year. All they have to do is wait. Reggie, Dumars, Mutombo?, Dantley, Wilkes sorry to say. Mutombo had to go in after Eaton went in for the same major reason. . |
One thing I don't like about the Hall is, unlike baseball, they don't tell you about voting. With baseball, players are competing for votes, so the quality of the competition is important. I don't know if that's true in basketball. I don't know if the committees can vote for as many people as they want, so I don't know if who's ahead of you matters.
Don't think Eaton is in the Hall. |
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Basketball Fan
Franchise Player
Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Posts: 24761
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| Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2015 6:37 pm Post subject: |
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http://nba.nbcsports.com/2015/09/08/charles-barkley-david-stern-dr-j-lead-hall-of-fame-induction-presenters/
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Charles Barkley, David Stern, Dr. J lead Hall of Fame induction presenters
This weekend, 11 people will be inducted into the Naismith Basketball Hall of Fame.
As is tradition, each of them will be “presented” — a ceremonial position where they stand near the inductee — by a mentor or friend of theirs already in the Hall.
Tuesday, the HOF released the list of presenters — and it’s impressive. Charles Barkley, Bill Walton, Dr. J., Pat Riley, David Stern, Larry Brown, and the list goes on. The two Celtics legends, Jo Jo White and Tommy Heinsohn, have other Celtics legends and teammates welcoming them into the club.
Here is the official list of presenters:
Dick Bavetta: presented by Charles Barkley, Bob Lanier and Don Nelson
Dikembe Mutombo: presented by David Stern and John Thompson
Spencer Haywood: presented by Charles Barkley, Bill Walton and Lenny Wilkens
Jo Jo White: presented by Dave Cowens and John Havlicek
John Calipari: presented by Larry Brown, Julius Erving and Pat Riley
Louis Dampier: presented by Dan Issel
Lindsay Gaze: presented by Larry Brown, Hank Nichols and Lute Olson
Tom Heinsohn: presented by Tom “Satch” Sanders
John Isaacs: presented by Nate Archibald
Lisa Leslie: presented by Cynthia Cooper-Dyke, Teresa Edwards, Katrina McClain, Dawn Staley, Tara VanDerveer, Lynette Woodard and James Worthy
George Raveling: presented by Phil Knight, John Thompson and Lenny Wilkens |
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Aeneas Hunter
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Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 31763
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| Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2015 6:12 am Post subject: |
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Wow, I'd forgotten what a pitiful class this was. When a guy like Haywood goes in -- after being passed over for 30 years -- the bottom of the barrel has officially been scraped. They need to put a time limit on the HOF, like baseball does.
It's interesting that Mutumbo got David Stern to be his presenter. |
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non-player zealot
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Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Posts: 21365
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| Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2015 2:51 pm Post subject: |
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| activeverb wrote: | | carlosLisboa wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | The Basketball Hall of Fame seems determined to cheapen itself. There probably needs to be a time limit similar to what they have in baseball. Seriously, the Hall of Fame is down to mining second tier stars from the '70s. |
Over the past half decade, the Hall has let in a flood of borderline guys who were sitting around forever - White, Bernard King, Jamaal Wilkes, Chet Walker, Ralph Sampson, Mel Daniels, Dennis Johnson, Mitch Richmond, Adrien Dantlley.
That's quite a run of second-tier Hall of Famers. Makes me wonder if they got in a whole new voting crew came in. Cause starting around 2010 a bunch of guys who had been waiting 10 years or more began getting in. |
Mitch Richmond should not be there. All Star Game MVP, 1 Olympic medal, but the most of his career was racking up scoring numbers in Sacramento. A disaster in LA. I liked him, though.
Bernard King. The 60 point game on Xmas day, the heroic return to shape in WAS after many years battling injuries and little else.
Dantley made it to the Finals once with the Pistons, leading the team in scoring. Not so fond of him as a person and ball hog style. |
I wouldn't have put in any of those guys either. I would have put in Sidney Moncrief before any of them. |
Agreed on all 4 points above. I'll skip the soapbox this time around, I see that all the regulars in these HOF threads have reconvened and we all know each other's takes on the matter. I just wanna say hi. It ain't an anti-HOF party thread without at least AH, AV, Lisboa, and myself. Where's the kegger at?
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Aeneas Hunter
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Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 31763
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| Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2015 9:45 am Post subject: |
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| To hell with the keg. In keeping with this HoF class, it's Billy Beer -- something no one has thought about much since the '70s. |
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caesar
Starting Rotation
Joined: 22 May 2001
Posts: 250
Location: Vegas, baby!
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| Posted: Sun Sep 13, 2015 12:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Adrian Dantley had a very good NBA career, in addition, he was the best player on gold medal Montreal Olympic squad. Pure scorer, had 4 times 30+ points in NBA season, career avg. 24.3 ppg. Hall of Famer?, hell yeah |
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ksmgf
Star Player
Joined: 24 Jun 2005
Posts: 5057
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| Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2015 2:22 am Post subject: |
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| activeverb wrote: | | carlosLisboa wrote: | | activeverb wrote: |
In contrast, the Baseball Hall is so open, and dedicated to players fans know. The Baseball Hall is the gold standard for Halls of Fame; the Basketball Hall is something of a joke. |
What do you mean? That the fact very few countries except the US care about baseball makes it better than basketball's?
The problem about the NBA basketball HoF is hardly the foreign players.
It is more the case of NBA old acquaintances lobbying and adding friends in, undeservedly.
There are many basketball fans around there. I (as well as hundreds of millions of europeans) cannot see why people bother to watch baseball at all. And it is not a matter of ignorance. I have studied the rules and tried to watch a game and it is just boring. American football is quite fun, and worth watching, and some people actually see the Superbowl. Ice hockey is also very nice, but roller skate hockey is more popular.
. |
I meant the Baseball Hall of Fame is the gold standard in the way in which the voting system operates. It's completely transparent. The voting patterns are pretty consistent. Everything is above board.
The Basketball Hall of Fame is a mysterious process where small groups determine the entrants; the voting is not made transparent. There is lot of cronyism and log-rolling. The choices often seem arbitrary.
The fact that the Hall is so eclectic makes it seem more arbitrary. When some odd choices get in, some people hypothesis it's because of some combination of their professional and college resumes, but no one really knows.
In terms of the sports any specific person likes and dislikes, to each his own.
| carlosLisboa wrote: |
I am sure Grant Hill will be there one day. |
He probably will. He had a great college career and a good enough pro career to make it, even with all the injuries. I'd say the locks are:
Kobe
Shaq
Duncan
Dirk
Iverson
Garnett
Nash
Pierce
Allen
Parker
Lebron
Wade
Paul
Dwight
Bosh
Durant
Kidd
Pau and Carmelo are likely. |
I would put Pau as a lock and leave Dwight as likely. Pau won 2 NBA titles and won with team Spain. I am sure he's first ballot and the Lakers will retire his jersey after he gets into the hall of fame. |
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