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yinoma2001
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 Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2015 10:43 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I'd say the downward spiral started when Nash broke his leg in the second game. |
Bingo. I wasn't the biggest MDA fan, but it was premised on a healthy Nash (which he was, relatively speaking the prior 2 seasons). When he broke so too did the concept of the team as it was expected that Nash would adroitly distribute the ball to so many wanting players (Kobe, Dwight, Pau). Without that, the Lakers had non-MDA guys running his offense and the spiral started there.
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activeverb
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| Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2015 10:47 am Post subject: |
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| SGV-Laker fan wrote: | | i don't like the fact during media day, Kobe left baits out there for everyone to fish on when he's gonna hangs it up. i mean, if he really wants to play beyond this year, just say it. i think front office is waiting on clear indication of this also as they can prepare whether to celebrate kobe's last year (if he gives indication he's retiring) or entertaining possibility of resign him for cheap or even trading him (if he gives sign he'd like to play beyond this year) |
I suspect Kobe's decision will largely depend on his health and performance this year, so there really isn't any way for him to indicate what he's going to do. He doesn't know yet. |
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ocho
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| Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2015 10:49 am Post subject: |
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| activeverb wrote: | | Treble Clef wrote: | | golaker wrote: | | Voices wrote: | | Tony Anapolis wrote: | I will never understand the mocking of Phil from the Laker fan base. Not saying it is everyone, but why the hate for Phil? From what I understand he wanted to be in L.A., he wanted to help the Lakers organization. Phil was ran out of town by Jim Buss.
Not saying I hate Jim for that either, but hasn't Phil done more for L.A. then Jimmy has at this point? |
Agree 100% |
Seriously. Our franchise went into a downward spiral when we chose
MDA over Phil, people here just don't like to admit that. |
The downward spiral was already in full effect at that time. That's why they were coach-less 5 games into the season. |
Yup, it's easy to think Phil would have been the savior. But I remember all the complaints about his burnt out Phil seemed at end of his tenure, and then his talk about maybe not traveling with the team to away games. We'll never know but I can imagine us re-signing Phil, him flaming out, and everyone complaining that the Lakers went with the obvious choice.
I'd say the downward spiral started when Nash broke his leg in the second game. |
I know there's a bit of superhuman mysticism surrounding Phil, but I'm surprised at the notion that he would have salvaged the season or the Lakers future. Even if you believe he would have done a better job than D'Antoni (a very fair assumption), you still had broken Nash, you still had Kobe and Dwight not getting along, you still had disgruntled Pau, you still had zero bench or depth. Not to mention Phil was on his 3rd retirement and wasn't a long-term solution (his refusal to coach NYK is proof he no longer wanted the grind). At best Phil would have been a 1 year band-aid, and I don't see that team going any further than the MDA version did that year. The argument could be made that Phil could have convinced Dwight to stay, but that would have set the franchise back more than it would have helped.
It's always nice to think you could have made one different decision and magically change everything, but the Nash/Howard moves were made to preserve and extend whatever was left of Kobe. But Nash was done from Day 1 and Kobe fell off a cliff physically. Sometimes it just doesn't work out. |
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greenfrog
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| Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2015 11:41 am Post subject: |
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| activeverb wrote: | | SGV-Laker fan wrote: | | i don't like the fact during media day, Kobe left baits out there for everyone to fish on when he's gonna hangs it up. i mean, if he really wants to play beyond this year, just say it. i think front office is waiting on clear indication of this also as they can prepare whether to celebrate kobe's last year (if he gives indication he's retiring) or entertaining possibility of resign him for cheap or even trading him (if he gives sign he'd like to play beyond this year) |
I suspect Kobe's decision will largely depend on his health and performance this year, so there really isn't any way for him to indicate what he's going to do. He doesn't know yet. |
Has Kobe commented on whether he thought he had a good season last year? I just wonder what the personal performance threshold for him is. |
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Hector the Pup
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| Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2015 12:07 pm Post subject: |
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| SGV-Laker fan wrote: | | i don't like the fact during media day, Kobe left baits out there for everyone to fish on when he's gonna hangs it up. i mean, if he really wants to play beyond this year, just say it. i think front office is waiting on clear indication of this also as they can prepare whether to celebrate kobe's last year (if he gives indication he's retiring) or entertaining possibility of resign him for cheap or even trading him (if he gives sign he'd like to play beyond this year) |
He made it as clear as possible. He won't make a decision beyond this season before seeing how he plays this season.
I'm not sure how difficult that is to understand. |
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venturalakersfan
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| Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2015 2:03 pm Post subject: |
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| greenfrog wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | | SGV-Laker fan wrote: | | i don't like the fact during media day, Kobe left baits out there for everyone to fish on when he's gonna hangs it up. i mean, if he really wants to play beyond this year, just say it. i think front office is waiting on clear indication of this also as they can prepare whether to celebrate kobe's last year (if he gives indication he's retiring) or entertaining possibility of resign him for cheap or even trading him (if he gives sign he'd like to play beyond this year) |
I suspect Kobe's decision will largely depend on his health and performance this year, so there really isn't any way for him to indicate what he's going to do. He doesn't know yet. |
Has Kobe commented on whether he thought he had a good season last year? I just wonder what the personal performance threshold for him is. |
I suspect that he wouldn't share that with anyone.
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wolfpaclaker
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| Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2015 4:42 pm Post subject: |
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With Phil Lakers still lose the ring that year. Don't know what happens with where they wind up - WCF/2nd round or whatever. Or if Kobe gets hurt.
But the key differences would be.
1- Pau is not nearly as upset about being 3rd fiddle. He greatly respects Phil and has a true friendship with him. He'd love being the "LO" in the Triangle for Kobe/Dwight.
2- Dwight is like child's play for Phil. Give him 6 post ups early on, feed his ego and then tell him to defend the paint. Ride him a little, yet always show support to him over Kobe in the press, which is key for Dwight.
3- Kobe its proven, Kobe can play under any Phil regime, and they've bonded enough to the point of any kind of statement Phil makes in the press, Kobe knows what it's really about. Phil was able to handle Shaq/Kobe, he'd see Dwight/Kobe as nothing in comparison.
Now in contrast, D'Antoni not only alienated Pau, he seemed to have the magical ability to get Kobe and Dwight as well - I mean ALL 3 of the top 3 players to somehow dislike him. Within 1 year, Kobe and MDA barely seemed to talk. Within the same year, Dwight wanted MDA fired. Pau and MDA's infighting was playing out in the press during the season. I think while MDA did a much better job his SECOND season, especially with the younger guys and very bad that team played pretty well, it's pretty awful how he handled that first season.
I never thought Phil would have saved the season in terms of giving LA a ring, but I think he would have done something MDA or Brown couldn't. He would earned respect and admiration from LA's big 3, and showed them a clear cut plan as to how they could win rings moving forward. If LA winds up showing a good playoff performance vs a sweep in round 1, that changes a lot of things that move forward that year. Of course the major ? is would Kobe have gotten hurt playing for Phil that season. We'll never know.
In the end, it's all moot though. What's happened has happened, and perhaps it all works out for the best with Lakers getting some elite draft picks. I just loathe that Kobe's final years finished off the way they did. Kobe deserved better, but it wasn't mean to be. |
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activeverb
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| Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2015 5:50 pm Post subject: |
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| wolfpaclaker wrote: |
I never thought Phil would have saved the season in terms of giving LA a ring, but I think he would have done something MDA or Brown couldn't. He would earned respect and admiration from LA's big 3, and showed them a clear cut plan as to how they could win rings moving forward. If LA winds up showing a good playoff performance vs a sweep in round 1, that changes a lot of things that move forward that year. Of course the major ? is would Kobe have gotten hurt playing for Phil that season. We'll never know.
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It's questionable to me whether Phil could have smoothed out the Kobe/Howard situation; it's not like he did a great job smoothing out Kobe/Shaq.
But sure Phil does better in the magical woulda-coulda-shoulda scenario where Kobe doesn't get hurt. But how does he do in the woulda-coulda-shoulda scenario where he decides not to travel with the team and player and fans think he's burned out?
Like you said, we'll never know ... |
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Treble Clef
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| Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2015 6:17 pm Post subject: |
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| activeverb wrote: | | wolfpaclaker wrote: |
I never thought Phil would have saved the season in terms of giving LA a ring, but I think he would have done something MDA or Brown couldn't. He would earned respect and admiration from LA's big 3, and showed them a clear cut plan as to how they could win rings moving forward. If LA winds up showing a good playoff performance vs a sweep in round 1, that changes a lot of things that move forward that year. Of course the major ? is would Kobe have gotten hurt playing for Phil that season. We'll never know.
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It's questionable to me whether Phil could have smoothed out the Kobe/Howard situation; it's not like he did a great job smoothing out Kobe/Shaq.
But sure Phil does better in the magical woulda-coulda-shoulda scenario where Kobe doesn't get hurt. But how does he do in the woulda-coulda-shoulda scenario where he decides not to travel with the team and player and fans think he's burned out?
Like you said, we'll never know ... |
 that's the part of it that I can never quite grasp. Kobe/Shaq is always listed as Phil's greatest accomplishment of making players work together and see eye to eye, yet that relationship boiled over and exploded under his watch, and it often seemed like he was doing more to egg them on than anything else.
i don't remember Dwight ever being anti DAntoni prior to the coaching hire. As it played out, he was unhappy of course, but he apparently thought that with Phil, Kobe would have been reeled in and Dwight would have become the organizations focus. It's a foolish thought for a lot of reasons, but that appears to be what Dwight thought would happen. |
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greenfrog
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| Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2015 6:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Treble Clef wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | | wolfpaclaker wrote: |
I never thought Phil would have saved the season in terms of giving LA a ring, but I think he would have done something MDA or Brown couldn't. He would earned respect and admiration from LA's big 3, and showed them a clear cut plan as to how they could win rings moving forward. If LA winds up showing a good playoff performance vs a sweep in round 1, that changes a lot of things that move forward that year. Of course the major ? is would Kobe have gotten hurt playing for Phil that season. We'll never know.
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It's questionable to me whether Phil could have smoothed out the Kobe/Howard situation; it's not like he did a great job smoothing out Kobe/Shaq.
But sure Phil does better in the magical woulda-coulda-shoulda scenario where Kobe doesn't get hurt. But how does he do in the woulda-coulda-shoulda scenario where he decides not to travel with the team and player and fans think he's burned out?
Like you said, we'll never know ... |
that's the part of it that I can never quite grasp. Kobe/Shaq is always listed as Phil's greatest accomplishment of making players work together and see eye to eye, yet that relationship boiled over and exploded under his watch, and it often seemed like he was doing more to egg them on than anything else.
i don't remember Dwight ever being anti DAntoni prior to the coaching hire. As it played out, he was unhappy of course, but he apparently thought that with Phil, Kobe would have been reeled in and Dwight would have become the organizations focus. It's a foolish thought for a lot of reasons, but that appears to be what Dwight thought would happen. |
His biggest beef with MDA, or his father's beef (which I translate as his), was that he didn't publicly trash Kobe or try to curb his on the court indulgences. In that sense Phil probably would have been better. He had that down to an art. Whether it would have been enough to re-sign him short of an amnesty of Kobe I highly doubt. |
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kwase
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| Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2015 6:48 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="MJST"] | kwase wrote: | | MJST wrote: | | kikanga wrote: | I want Kobe to win another ring.
Tired of people implying Duncan's career is equal or greater than Kobe's.
Another chip should put alot of that to rest. |
Not if he went to a superteam to try to chase it.
That's as "Anti-Kobe" as his mindset would ever be.
I'm pretty sure when Kobe said "It either happens here or it doesn't happen." he means it.
Phil just stirring things up within the media as per usual.
And going to the Knicks would be a WORSE situation anyway.
no clue why people even hype that as a possibility other than the fact Phil is there. But as last year will show you, if Phil isn't coaching, it means diddily squat where he is. |
The minute "somebody" in this organization hired MDA instead of Phil, Kobe's chance at 6 rings went out the window. I really think Kobe has accepted that fact. I think this is Phil trying to say "Hey, I might come back and coach if you sign". I don't think Kobe would do it, but it can't hurt Phil by trying. |
Phil wouldn't have saved that team, and him and Dwight would have left that off-season, we'd have been bashed for 'living in the past' and Dwight 'moving on to a more modern offense with McHale which was the offense of the NEW Nba" and we'd probably have hired D'antoni anyway.
The only difference is, Dwight would have had more of a 'legit' reason to leave, he'd just say "The triangle isn't for him, he wants an offense more modern and more like the kind he ran in Orlando." and he'd have went to the Rockets anyway with McHale and he WOULDN'T have been bashed for it.
WE would have been bashed for not going with the more modern style the NBA is headed and D'antoni would have become the one we 'should' have hired instead of Phil. That's how the media would have spun it and fans would have ate it up.
Think about it for a second.
I cut your post short to save space. I have thought about it. I've thought about it hundreds of times since the decision was made to go with MDA, and I don't know how the team would have faired under Phil with Dwight, but no damn way it ends in the disastrous way it ended under MDA. MDA was a catastrophic failure of monumental proportions. He single handedly destroyed this organization and we have yet to see how long the effects of it will last. MDA was a complete failure for the Knicks, then he came over here and ran all of our talent away...and told all the fans that if we didn't like it to go F ourselves and root for another team. To put it lightly, I hate that man!!!
Phil might have had a rough last year with us, but he also had 5 stellar ones. Personally, I'm leary of anyone that would have something negative to say about a guy that guided us to so much success and great memories. But hey, that's just me I guess.
Last edited by kwase on Tue Sep 29, 2015 6:49 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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activeverb
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| Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2015 6:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Treble Clef wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | | wolfpaclaker wrote: |
I never thought Phil would have saved the season in terms of giving LA a ring, but I think he would have done something MDA or Brown couldn't. He would earned respect and admiration from LA's big 3, and showed them a clear cut plan as to how they could win rings moving forward. If LA winds up showing a good playoff performance vs a sweep in round 1, that changes a lot of things that move forward that year. Of course the major ? is would Kobe have gotten hurt playing for Phil that season. We'll never know.
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It's questionable to me whether Phil could have smoothed out the Kobe/Howard situation; it's not like he did a great job smoothing out Kobe/Shaq.
But sure Phil does better in the magical woulda-coulda-shoulda scenario where Kobe doesn't get hurt. But how does he do in the woulda-coulda-shoulda scenario where he decides not to travel with the team and player and fans think he's burned out?
Like you said, we'll never know ... |
that's the part of it that I can never quite grasp. Kobe/Shaq is always listed as Phil's greatest accomplishment of making players work together and see eye to eye, yet that relationship boiled over and exploded under his watch, and it often seemed like he was doing more to egg them on than anything else.
i don't remember Dwight ever being anti DAntoni prior to the coaching hire. As it played out, he was unhappy of course, but he apparently thought that with Phil, Kobe would have been reeled in and Dwight would have become the organizations focus. It's a foolish thought for a lot of reasons, but that appears to be what Dwight thought would happen. |
Phil's game plan was to court his superstar (MJ in Chi, Shaq in LA) and the rest of the team fell in line. Phil never made any attempt to smooth things out between Shaq and Kobe. He kissed Shaq's ass, and threw Kobe under the bus. Later, when Kobe was the main man, Phil's approach changed with him of course. |
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Goldenwest
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| Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2015 8:09 pm Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | Quote: | | I'd say the downward spiral started when Nash broke his leg in the second game. |
Bingo. I wasn't the biggest MDA fan, but it was premised on a healthy Nash (which he was, relatively speaking the prior 2 seasons). When he broke so too did the concept of the team as it was expected that Nash would adroitly distribute the ball to so many wanting players (Kobe, Dwight, Pau). Without that, the Lakers had non-MDA guys running his offense and the spiral started there. |
even with a healthy Nash that team was doomed unless MDA adapted to a slower tempo half court system. Kobe, Dwight, and Pau were never going to run and gun with a 38 year old Nash. Personnel wise that team was built as a halfcourt team. |
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greenfrog
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| Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2015 8:14 pm Post subject: |
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| activeverb wrote: | | Phil's game plan was to court his superstar (MJ in Chi, Shaq in LA) and the rest of the team fell in line. Phil never made any attempt to smooth things out between Shaq and Kobe. He kissed Shaq's ass, and threw Kobe under the bus. Later, when Kobe was the main man, Phil's approach changed with him of course. |
It's always been amazing to me that Phil's most ardent supporters tend to be the diehard Kobe fans. Maybe they were too young to fully absorb the first threepeat, but he absolutely hated Kobe. When he came back he tempered it obviously, but you could still see it was there.
Last edited by greenfrog on Tue Sep 29, 2015 9:54 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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activeverb
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| Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2015 9:37 pm Post subject: |
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| greenfrog wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | | Phil's game plan was to court his superstar (MJ in Chi, Shaq in LA) and the rest of the team fell in line. Phil never made any attempt to smooth things out between Shaq and Kobe. He kissed Shaq's ass, and threw Kobe under the bus. Later, when Kobe was the main man, Phil's approach changed with him of course. |
It's always been amazing to me that Phil's most ardent supporters tend to be the diehard Kobe fans. Maybe they were too young to fully absorb the first threepeet, but he absolutely hated Kobe. When he came back he tempered it obviously, but you could still see it was there. |
Not sure if Phil hated Kobe. But Phil is manipulative and he always picked out a team whipping boy. Horace Grant, Tony Kukoc and Kobe all got their turn. |
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greenfrog
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| Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2015 10:47 pm Post subject: |
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| activeverb wrote: | | greenfrog wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | | Phil's game plan was to court his superstar (MJ in Chi, Shaq in LA) and the rest of the team fell in line. Phil never made any attempt to smooth things out between Shaq and Kobe. He kissed Shaq's ass, and threw Kobe under the bus. Later, when Kobe was the main man, Phil's approach changed with him of course. |
It's always been amazing to me that Phil's most ardent supporters tend to be the diehard Kobe fans. Maybe they were too young to fully absorb the first threepeat, but he absolutely hated Kobe. When he came back he tempered it obviously, but you could still see it was there. |
Not sure if Phil hated Kobe. But Phil is manipulative and he always picked out a team whipping boy. Horace Grant, Tony Kukoc and Kobe all got their turn. |
Those were practice whipping boys. I don't recall them ever getting called out after games or trashed in interviews the way he did with Kobe. |
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Treble Clef
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| Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2015 6:17 pm Post subject: |
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| activeverb wrote: | | Treble Clef wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | | wolfpaclaker wrote: |
I never thought Phil would have saved the season in terms of giving LA a ring, but I think he would have done something MDA or Brown couldn't. He would earned respect and admiration from LA's big 3, and showed them a clear cut plan as to how they could win rings moving forward. If LA winds up showing a good playoff performance vs a sweep in round 1, that changes a lot of things that move forward that year. Of course the major ? is would Kobe have gotten hurt playing for Phil that season. We'll never know.
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It's questionable to me whether Phil could have smoothed out the Kobe/Howard situation; it's not like he did a great job smoothing out Kobe/Shaq.
But sure Phil does better in the magical woulda-coulda-shoulda scenario where Kobe doesn't get hurt. But how does he do in the woulda-coulda-shoulda scenario where he decides not to travel with the team and player and fans think he's burned out?
Like you said, we'll never know ... |
that's the part of it that I can never quite grasp. Kobe/Shaq is always listed as Phil's greatest accomplishment of making players work together and see eye to eye, yet that relationship boiled over and exploded under his watch, and it often seemed like he was doing more to egg them on than anything else.
i don't remember Dwight ever being anti DAntoni prior to the coaching hire. As it played out, he was unhappy of course, but he apparently thought that with Phil, Kobe would have been reeled in and Dwight would have become the organizations focus. It's a foolish thought for a lot of reasons, but that appears to be what Dwight thought would happen. |
Phil's game plan was to court his superstar (MJ in Chi, Shaq in LA) and the rest of the team fell in line. Phil never made any attempt to smooth things out between Shaq and Kobe. He kissed Shaq's ass, and threw Kobe under the bus. Later, when Kobe was the main man, Phil's approach changed with him of course. |
I always suspected that Phil was only welcomed back if he canned all the negative stuff with Kobe. Once Phil returned in 2006, he never dared take shots at Kobe. |
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