|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
DaMuleRules
Retired Number
Joined: 10 Dec 2006
Posts: 52657
Location: Making a safety stop at 15 feet.
|
 Posted: Mon Oct 05, 2015 6:18 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| OregonLakerGuy wrote: | | 24 wrote: | | OregonLakerGuy wrote: | | nickuku wrote: | http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2015/oct/02/mass-shootings-america-gun-violence?CMP=share_btn_fb
I knew it was bad but not this bad. |
This includes a lot of data that in no way resemble what happened in Oregon. |
How so? It was a mass shooting... |
I do not equate drive by shootings with what happened in Oregon. Completely different problems imo. |
So the Isla Vista shooter doesn't count simply because he was driving a car?
Come on. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
OregonLakerGuy
Franchise Player
Joined: 23 Feb 2005
Posts: 13207
Location: Oregon
|
| Posted: Mon Oct 05, 2015 8:21 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| DaMuleRules wrote: | | OregonLakerGuy wrote: | | 24 wrote: | | OregonLakerGuy wrote: | | nickuku wrote: | http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2015/oct/02/mass-shootings-america-gun-violence?CMP=share_btn_fb
I knew it was bad but not this bad. |
This includes a lot of data that in no way resemble what happened in Oregon. |
How so? It was a mass shooting... |
I do not equate drive by shootings with what happened in Oregon. Completely different problems imo. |
So the Isla Vista shooter doesn't count simply because he was driving a car?
Come on. |
You mentioned the one drive by that I am aware of that I would classify the like a school shooting. A run of the mill drive by and these school-type shootings are very different events. They have different motivations and are very different kinds of perpetrators using very different methods of obtaining their weapons. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Nordvader
Star Player
Joined: 21 Jan 2012
Posts: 1662
|
| Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2015 5:09 am Post subject: |
|
|
| jodeke wrote: | | Nordvader wrote: | | jodeke wrote: |
I don't see where he was charged for shooting the victim. I think he should have been. It could set a precedence if he's not. People in the area of a crime carrying may think the have the right to play policeman. |
The shooter picked up the shell casings and left the scene. |
I heard or read that somewhere.
They saw him picking up the casings, if they wanted to charge him I'm of a mind they could find him.
I'm not versed in law, this is a query. If they find the carjackers could he be charged with assault?
It's not setting a good precedence allowing citizens to take the law into their hands. This is not the Wild Wild West.
Not wanting him to be charged, just wondering. |
I'm not entirely sure if he will be charged but the police are still looking to speak with him. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
SpunkieLakerCat
Star Player
Joined: 13 Jun 2005
Posts: 1858
|
| Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2015 3:41 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| venturalakersfan wrote: | | The Silhouette wrote: | | The Silhouette wrote: | American deaths in terrorism vs. gun violence in one graph
Julia Jones and Eve Bower October 2, 2015
| Quote: | Using numbers from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, we found that from 2004 to 2013, 316,545 people died by firearms on U.S. soil. (2013 is the most recent year CDC data for deaths by firearms is available.) This data covered all manners of death, including homicide, accident and suicide.
According to the U.S. State Department, the number of U.S. citizens killed overseas as a result of incidents of terrorism from 2004 to 2013 was 277.
In addition, we compiled all terrorism incidents inside the U.S.* and found that between 2004 and 2013, there were 36 people killed in domestic acts of terrorism. This brings the total to 313. |
CNN |
bump |
The number of deaths in this attack is about 1/6th of the number of gun deaths in Chicago a couple of weekends ago. While this gets wall to wall media attention, that was brushed under the carpet. I wonder why? Rhetorical question, we know why. In an area with the strictest gun control laws in the US. In an area dominated by liberal politics. Proof that bad laws do no good and that politics inhibit the ability of legislators to seek real solutions.
And expect things to get worse as the economy continues to collapse, jobs become even harder to find, and the desperation increases. |
The Problem With Using Chicago to Make the Case Against Gun Control
By Alison Elkin
http://bloom.bg/1VCmXsp
Bloomberg
“If Chicago did not have tough gun laws they would have higher rates of gun violence than they do have.”
Philip Cook, University of Chicago Crime Lab
On the same program, Christie offered a similar argument.
"In many of the places around this country where they have the toughest gun laws, they have the highest violent crime rates. And we focus on a tragedy like this. It's an awful tragedy. It's terrible. But it is the exception to violence in America. Violence in America that's happened on our streets in our cities, like Chicago, up 19 percent, the murder rate," Christie said. "And you have some of the most aggressive gun laws in cities like that."
Chicago's high rates of gun violence have been well-documented. In 2014, there were 2,587 shooting victims in in the city, according to the Chicago Tribune. The New York City Police Department recorded 1,381 victims in the same time period, and New York has around three times as many people as the "Windy City."
But advocates for tougher restrictions say Trump’s and Christie’s arguments do not take into account two key features of the Chicago's gun landscape. The first is that, though it’s hard to get a gun in Chicago, it’s much easier to get one in the city’s immediate vicinity. The second feature is the city’s high level of gang activity, and that gangs are both adept at procuring guns illegally and prone to involvement in shooting incidents.
“I think that it’s more likely that if Chicago did not have tough gun laws they would have higher rates of gun violence than they do have,” said Philip Cook, a Duke public policy professor and economist who works with the University of Chicago Crime Lab, leading its multi-city underground gun market study.
Cook recently studied the origins of guns recovered in Chicago between 2009 and 2013 using data from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms and Explosives. Of the more than 7,000 guns he studied, “the great majority came from the people who were members of gangs,” Cook said, adding that "the gang conflict in Chicago has been particularly lethal over the decades and part of the reason is those organizations are skilled at accessing guns."
A lot of that access comes from outside Illinois. Cook said he found that 60 percent of guns recovered in connection with an arrest were from out of state. Twenty-four percent of the total pool of guns came from Indiana, which is "not regulated at all," he said. Chicago gangs often have connections to gangs in Gary, Indiana, and the two cities almost butt up against each other.
The study also found that 22 percent of the recovered guns came from parts of Cook County outside the city, where gun dealers and gun shows are legal.
Gun rights activists argue that Chicago's position, as an island of regulation, endangers its residents who are unwilling to secure a gun illegally.
"The gun laws in Chicago only restrict the law-abiding citizens and they’ve essentially made the citizens prey,” said Richard Pearson, executive director of the Illinois State Rifle Association to the New York Times in 2013.
Over a longer period the Chicago Police Department had similar findings to Cook. Between 2002 and 2012, CPD tracked the origin of 50,000 guns, finding that more than half of them came into the city from other states, the New York Times reported. Indiana and Mississippi were the two biggest feeders with a combined 24 percent of recovered guns originating from the two states. Almost a third of those 50,000 guns came from Cook County. At the time, Chicago Mayor Rahm Emanuel explained the flip side of Christie's and Trump's arguments, saying that the lack of regulation around the city was the cause of the violence.
"Our gun strategy is only as strong as it is comprehensive, and it is constantly being undermined by events and occurrences happening outside the city—gun shows in surrounding counties, weak gun laws in neighboring states like Indiana and the inability to track purchasing,” Emanuel told the New York Times at the time. “This must change.”
Republicans like Trump and Christie are not incorrect in saying that Chicago has tough gun regulations as well as a high number of shooting incidents, just as Democrats like Emanuel have a point that lax gun restrictions in the surrounding communities help facilitate the flood of weapons into the city.
Asked about the Oregon shooting on the Today Show on Tuesday, Florida Senator Marco Rubio did not mention Chicago specifically, but reinforced the idea that criminals who want guns will usually get them. "What I know is this," Rubio said. "Many of the proposals that are out there now on gun control would not have prevented that attack or some of the others we've seen in the past. Unfortunately in cases of mental illness or in cases of someone who just wants a gun to carry out a crime, they're not going to follow the law."
For Democrats like presidential front-runner Hillary Clinton, that explanation doesn't cut it. Instead, they feel it's time to amend the laws that make places like Chicago an island on gun restrictions.
“On the Republican side, [Donald] Trump was asked about it and said something like, ‘You know, things like that happen in the world and Governor Bush said, ‘Yeah stuff happens,'" Clinton said Monday at a campaign rally in Manchester, N.H. "No, that’s an admission of defeat and surrender to a problem that is killing 33,000 Americans. It’s time for us to say wait a minute, we are better than this, our country is better than this and there are steps we can take that improve gun safety and further the prevention of violence by guns."
_________________
"You cannot live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you"
Coach Wooden |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Aussiesuede
Franchise Player
Joined: 27 Jul 2005
Posts: 10964
|
| Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2015 4:05 pm Post subject: |
|
|
^^^^ Ironically, Chicago's Non-Gang related gun homicide rate is actually lower than the national average, and lower than cities of comparable size. Meaning, that those who aren't involved in gang activity in Chicago actually are at lower risk of gun violence than the national average. So while Chicago's gangbangers are killing each other at a higher rate, non criminals are actually killing at a lower rate. (ie, Chicago gun laws work for non criminals)
Comprehensive Chicago Crime Stats
_________________
I'm On point, On task, On message, and Off drugs. A Streetwise Smart Bomb, Out of rehab and In denial. Over the Top, On the edge, Under the Radar, and In Control. Behind the 8 ball, Ahead of the Curve and I've got a Love Child who sends me Hate mail. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Aussiesuede
Franchise Player
Joined: 27 Jul 2005
Posts: 10964
|
| Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2015 4:29 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Another thing worth noting, the vast majority of gun deaths in the US are NOT homicides. They're suicides. Unfortunately, the statistics for both get lumped together when folks spout off gun statistics.
| Quote: | | Gun homicides get far more attention in the popular press, but most gun deaths are the result of suicide. In 2013, the last year for which the CDC provides numbers, 21,175 people committed suicide by firearm, while 11,208 people died in gun homicides. Historical data shows it's been this way for a while: |
Also gun owners are more likely to commit suicide than non gun owners. (Meaning when a person who has suicidal thoughts has access to a gun, his chances of successful suicide are greater)
| Quote: | | The relationship between gun prevalence and suicide is stronger than the relationship between guns and homicide, as the Harvard Injury Control Research Center's Means Matter project shows. People who die from suicide are likelier to live in homes with guns than people who merely attempted suicide, and states with higher rates of gun ownership have higher rates of gun suicide. |
Gun's and Death
_________________
I'm On point, On task, On message, and Off drugs. A Streetwise Smart Bomb, Out of rehab and In denial. Over the Top, On the edge, Under the Radar, and In Control. Behind the 8 ball, Ahead of the Curve and I've got a Love Child who sends me Hate mail. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
SpunkieLakerCat
Star Player
Joined: 13 Jun 2005
Posts: 1858
|
| Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2015 9:55 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Aussiesuede wrote: | ^^^^ Ironically, Chicago's Non-Gang related gun homicide rate is actually lower than the national average, and lower than cities of comparable size. Meaning, that those who aren't involved in gang activity in Chicago actually are at lower risk of gun violence than the national average. So while Chicago's gangbangers are killing each other at a higher rate, non criminals are actually killing at a lower rate. (ie, Chicago gun laws work for non criminals)
Comprehensive Chicago Crime Stats |
This bodes for the argument of federally mandated control/
_________________
"You cannot live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you"
Coach Wooden |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Aussiesuede
Franchise Player
Joined: 27 Jul 2005
Posts: 10964
|
| Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2015 11:14 am Post subject: |
|
|
| SpunkieLakerCat wrote: | | Aussiesuede wrote: | ^^^^ Ironically, Chicago's Non-Gang related gun homicide rate is actually lower than the national average, and lower than cities of comparable size. Meaning, that those who aren't involved in gang activity in Chicago actually are at lower risk of gun violence than the national average. So while Chicago's gangbangers are killing each other at a higher rate, non criminals are actually killing at a lower rate. (ie, Chicago gun laws work for non criminals)
Comprehensive Chicago Crime Stats |
This bodes for the argument of federally mandated control/ |
Yes, Chicagos gun control laws clearly work for non criminals. But the focus is in the wrong place. What they do is prevent more suicides, which is the true problem with gun violence. Citizens are at significantly greater risk of suicide than they are of homicide with a gun. So when you lower the number of guns in circulation, you lower the greatest component of gun violence - suicide. Folks are focused on the wrong threat. Compared to the suicide and accidental death at the hands of a gun, the homicide threat is truly insignificant for non criminals.
_________________
I'm On point, On task, On message, and Off drugs. A Streetwise Smart Bomb, Out of rehab and In denial. Over the Top, On the edge, Under the Radar, and In Control. Behind the 8 ball, Ahead of the Curve and I've got a Love Child who sends me Hate mail. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
DuncanIdaho
Franchise Player
Joined: 26 Apr 2004
Posts: 17249
Location: In a no-ship
|
| Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2015 11:35 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Aussiesuede wrote: | | SpunkieLakerCat wrote: | | Aussiesuede wrote: | ^^^^ Ironically, Chicago's Non-Gang related gun homicide rate is actually lower than the national average, and lower than cities of comparable size. Meaning, that those who aren't involved in gang activity in Chicago actually are at lower risk of gun violence than the national average. So while Chicago's gangbangers are killing each other at a higher rate, non criminals are actually killing at a lower rate. (ie, Chicago gun laws work for non criminals)
Comprehensive Chicago Crime Stats |
This bodes for the argument of federally mandated control/ |
Yes, Chicagos gun control laws clearly work for non criminals. But the focus is in the wrong place. What they do is prevent more suicides, which is the true problem with gun violence. Citizens are at significantly greater risk of suicide than they are of homicide with a gun. So when you lower the number of guns in circulation, you lower the greatest component of gun violence - suicide. Folks are focused on the wrong threat. Compared to the suicide and accidental death at the hands of a gun, the homicide threat is truly insignificant for non criminals. |
This also goes back to the 70s and 80s when we stopped caring about mental health in this country (thanks, Reagan). Suicides, homeless, jail population, the list goes on: more focus on mental health care in this country will solve many, many problems. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
JerryMagicKobe
Moderator
Joined: 28 Jul 2005
Posts: 15100
|
| Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2015 12:20 pm Post subject: |
|
|
The focus on mental health should also expand to include drug addiction with the focus shiftng from incarceration to prevention and treatment.
And if they legalized vice we would substantially reduce the financial incentives of gang warfare and the deaths that result from it. That in turn would substantially reduce prison populations, the need for LEOs and DOCs and ease the tension between police and the populace it is sworn to protect.
And if they really went crazy and used the funds saved from law enforcement cutbacks (and the revenue from taxing vice) to revitalize our inner-city schools, perhaps we c have poor kids growing up in a neighborhood with less violence, with more fathers around instead of dead or in jail and with an emphasis on school (rather than gang activity) being the way up. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Aussiesuede
Franchise Player
Joined: 27 Jul 2005
Posts: 10964
|
| Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2015 12:36 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| JerryMagicKobe wrote: | The focus on mental health should also expand to include drug addiction with the focus shiftng from incarceration to prevention and treatment.
And if they legalized vice we would substantially reduce the financial incentives of gang warfare and the deaths that result from it. That in turn would substantially reduce prison populations, the need for LEOs and DOCs and ease the tension between police and the populace it is sworn to protect.
And if they really went crazy and used the funds saved from law enforcement cutbacks (and the revenue from taxing vice) to revitalize our inner-city schools, perhaps we c have poor kids growing up in a neighborhood with less violence, with more fathers around instead of dead or in jail and with an emphasis on school (rather than gang activity) being the way up. |
Obama's Justice Department is getting started with this with 6000 low level drug offenders being released under retroactively effective sentencing guidelines. A great 1st step with surprisingly broad bipartisan support. One of our few success stories in recent years.
| Quote: | The Justice Department will release some 6,000 inmates from federal prisons beginning at the end of the month as part of new sentencing guidelines for drug crimes established last year, a federal law enforcement official confirmed Tuesday to Fox News.
The new drug sentencing guidelines from U.S. Sentencing Commission, which are intended to reduce penalties on certain nonviolent drug offenders, also applies to any future offenders.
The U.S. Sentencing Commission decided in July 2014 that close to 50,000 federal inmates locked up on drug charges would be eligible for reduced sentences. The new sentencing guidelines took effect on Nov. 1, 2014.
The commission’s action is separate from an effort by President Obama to grant clemency to certain nonviolent drug offenders. |
Low Level Drug Inmates Release
_________________
I'm On point, On task, On message, and Off drugs. A Streetwise Smart Bomb, Out of rehab and In denial. Over the Top, On the edge, Under the Radar, and In Control. Behind the 8 ball, Ahead of the Curve and I've got a Love Child who sends me Hate mail. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
JerryMagicKobe
Moderator
Joined: 28 Jul 2005
Posts: 15100
|
| Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2015 12:49 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Aussiesuede wrote: | | JerryMagicKobe wrote: | The focus on mental health should also expand to include drug addiction with the focus shiftng from incarceration to prevention and treatment.
And if they legalized vice we would substantially reduce the financial incentives of gang warfare and the deaths that result from it. That in turn would substantially reduce prison populations, the need for LEOs and DOCs and ease the tension between police and the populace it is sworn to protect.
And if they really went crazy and used the funds saved from law enforcement cutbacks (and the revenue from taxing vice) to revitalize our inner-city schools, perhaps we c have poor kids growing up in a neighborhood with less violence, with more fathers around instead of dead or in jail and with an emphasis on school (rather than gang activity) being the way up. |
Obama's Justice Department is getting started with this with 6000 low level drug offenders being released under retroactively effective sentencing guidelines. A great 1st step with surprisingly broad bipartisan support. One of our few success stories in recent years.
| Quote: | The Justice Department will release some 6,000 inmates from federal prisons beginning at the end of the month as part of new sentencing guidelines for drug crimes established last year, a federal law enforcement official confirmed Tuesday to Fox News.
The new drug sentencing guidelines from U.S. Sentencing Commission, which are intended to reduce penalties on certain nonviolent drug offenders, also applies to any future offenders.
The U.S. Sentencing Commission decided in July 2014 that close to 50,000 federal inmates locked up on drug charges would be eligible for reduced sentences. The new sentencing guidelines took effect on Nov. 1, 2014.
The commission’s action is separate from an effort by President Obama to grant clemency to certain nonviolent drug offenders. |
Low Level Drug Inmates Release |
That is a good start, but the key is to keep them out of prison in the first place.
Our prisons are a cesspool of drugs and violence and gangs and crime. Exposing non-violent offenders to that is not rehabilitation with the hope of producing a better citizen upon release.
Just the opposite. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Omar Little
Moderator
Joined: 02 May 2005
Posts: 90307
Location: Formerly Known As 24
|
| Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2015 12:59 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| I'm a big believer in eliminating incarceration for all but violent and chronic repeat offenders. Period. Plenty of other, useful penalties and corrective measures that can be used. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Fallout
Star Player
Joined: 03 Jun 2002
Posts: 7626
|
| Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2015 1:14 pm Post subject: |
|
|
http://news.yahoo.com/ben-carson-appears-second-guessing-oregon-shooting-victims-162646714.html
Carson suggested that the victims should have rushed the shooter to prevent more lives from being lost, telling ABC News yesterday that he would have confronted the gunman and would have instructed people to attack the gunman
----------------
Sure, good luck trying to convince other people to bum rush a heavily armed gunman.
_________________
The journey to 17 begins... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Omar Little
Moderator
Joined: 02 May 2005
Posts: 90307
Location: Formerly Known As 24
|
| Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2015 1:20 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Fallout wrote: | http://news.yahoo.com/ben-carson-appears-second-guessing-oregon-shooting-victims-162646714.html
Carson suggested that the victims should have rushed the shooter to prevent more lives from being lost, telling ABC News yesterday that he would have confronted the gunman and would have instructed people to attack the gunman
----------------
Sure, good luck trying to convince other people to bum rush a heavily armed gunman. |
There are a lot of hypothetical heroes in the world. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
SpunkieLakerCat
Star Player
Joined: 13 Jun 2005
Posts: 1858
|
| Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2015 2:27 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Aussiesuede wrote: | | JerryMagicKobe wrote: | The focus on mental health should also expand to include drug addiction with the focus shiftng from incarceration to prevention and treatment.
And if they legalized vice we would substantially reduce the financial incentives of gang warfare and the deaths that result from it. That in turn would substantially reduce prison populations, the need for LEOs and DOCs and ease the tension between police and the populace it is sworn to protect.
And if they really went crazy and used the funds saved from law enforcement cutbacks (and the revenue from taxing vice) to revitalize our inner-city schools, perhaps we c have poor kids growing up in a neighborhood with less violence, with more fathers around instead of dead or in jail and with an emphasis on school (rather than gang activity) being the way up. |
Obama's Justice Department is getting started with this with 6000 low level drug offenders being released under retroactively effective sentencing guidelines. A great 1st step with surprisingly broad bipartisan support. One of our few success stories in recent years.
| Quote: | The Justice Department will release some 6,000 inmates from federal prisons beginning at the end of the month as part of new sentencing guidelines for drug crimes established last year, a federal law enforcement official confirmed Tuesday to Fox News.
The new drug sentencing guidelines from U.S. Sentencing Commission, which are intended to reduce penalties on certain nonviolent drug offenders, also applies to any future offenders.
The U.S. Sentencing Commission decided in July 2014 that close to 50,000 federal inmates locked up on drug charges would be eligible for reduced sentences. The new sentencing guidelines took effect on Nov. 1, 2014.
The commission’s action is separate from an effort by President Obama to grant clemency to certain nonviolent drug offenders. |
Low Level Drug Inmates Release |
http://replygif.net/i/716.gif
_________________
"You cannot live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you"
Coach Wooden |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Splash1
Starting Rotation
Joined: 18 Aug 2011
Posts: 482
|
| Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2015 2:29 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Well, ain't this a (bleep)! Looks like we found some common ground. Some of these Republican candidates need to shut the hell up. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
